Dragon Ball Z - Episodes 11-15 - Discussion Thread [Rewatch - Week 3]

[Ajay]

Welcome! For details on this rewatch, click here!

Sorry for posting this one late. Christmas has been pretty hectic! Hopefully everyone's still keeping up okay.

Here are some legal ways to stream the series:
Funimation (North America)
AnimeLab (Australia and New Zealand)

This week we're covering:

[spoiler]宇宙一の強戦士サイヤ人めざめる！
Uchūichi no Kyō-senshi Saiya-jin Mezameru!
The Saiyan, Strongest Warriors in the Universe, Awaken!

As he endures his life of survival, Gohan has become so strong that he turns the tables on the carnivorous dinosaur and uses it as food. Meanwhile, in their spaceships on their way to Earth, the Saiyans Vegeta and Nappa stop by Planet Arlia in order to take it as their own. On this planet inhabited by bug people, the two allow themselves to be captured and taken to the castle of the dictator King Moai, but Nappa easily beats all the soldiers! They even defeat the monster that is the king’s trump card!! After killing the king, Vegeta judges the planet as worthless, and wipes it out.

蛇の道でいねむり　悟空が落っこちる
Hebi no Michi de Inemuri　Gokū ga Okkochiru
Catnap on the Serpent Road — Goku Takes a Tumble

While training, Piccolo levitates pyramids in the air! But he makes a mistake in his power regulation, and causes the ground to fluctuate. Training somewhere else, Gohan nearly falls into a fissure. As this is happening, Bulma and Kuririn arrive at the waterfall where Tenshinhan and Chiaotzu are training while being shadowed by Lunch. After hearing their story, Tenshinhan resolves to also receive God’s training!! On the Serpent Road, Goku receives a lift from the road’s garbage truck, but he is tired and falls asleep…

手を出すな！エンマ様の秘密の果物
Te o Dasu na! Enma-sama no Himitsu no Kudamono
Hands Off! Enma-sama’s Secret Fruit

Goku awakens after falling to Block 1 of Hell while asleep. When he tries to eat some fruit from the Enseijū, not knowing it’s for Enma Daio’s personal use, he is scolded by the oni Gozu and Mezu. Goku and the pair then begin a contest, with the oni promising to return Goku to the Serpent Road if he wins! Goku wins at sumo wresting against Gozu, and in playing tag with Mezu. He is thus informed by Mezu of a backdoor to the Serpent Road, but it leads to Enma Daio’s drawer?! Goku is stuck running along the Serpent Road from the very beginning again…

あまーい誘惑！蛇姫さまのおもてなし
Amāi Yūwaku! Hebi Himesama no Omotenashi
Such Sweet Temptation! The Snake Princess’s Hospitality

Kuririn, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Chiaotzu, and Yajirobe gather at God’s temple, and begin their special training! Meanwhile, as Goku is running along the Serpent Road, he meets the Snake Princess and her attendants in a castle on the roadside. The Snake Princess falls in love with Goku at first sight, but realizing after entertaining him that even the use of sleeping pills won’t detain him, she reveals her true identity, Jadōshin, the spirit of Serpent Road!! The entire castle itself was actually Jadōshin, who has the form of a gigantic snake, but Goku tangles the snake up and escapes.

ピッコロからの脱出！嵐を呼ぶ悟飯
Pikkoro kara no Dasshutsu! Arashi o Yobu Gohan
Escape from Piccolo! Gohan Summons a Storm

There’s eight months left until the Saiyan arrive on Earth! Piccolo refines himself by splitting apart to create a doppelganger, then fighting with it!! Meanwhile, as Gohan runs through the desert on a sand yacht that he made, he is chased by a giant eagle and reaches the shore. Gohan runs along the shore, climbs up the next mountain, and learns that his training ground is actually an island. And so, wholeheartedly wanting to see his mother, Gohan builds a raft and sets out on the sea, and at night he encounters a storm. The entire raft is swallowed up by a waterspout!![/spoiler]


Suggested Format & Weekly Questions

Language: For the sake of context, let us know which language you're watching the series in (and what score, if required).
General Thoughts: Your thoughts on the episode, possibly linked to the suggested questions if need be. Cover the plot, the tone, the character interactions, and characterisation.
Entertainment Factor: How was the pacing? Did the episode keep you entertained throughout, or what could have been done better?
Animation: Did you like the action sequences, or the way characters emoted? Did things move in a satisfying way, or was it mostly style over substance?
Questions: Not necessary, but if you're curious about opinions on a specific point that hasn't been touched on, go ahead and ask! It's a nice way to spur the topic onward.

- There are a lot of anime-exclusive characters and events in these episodes, how naturally do you feel they fit into the story?

- As a follow-up to that, Vegeta and Nappa are given an early focus in these episodes; do you feel this hurts or helps their impact when they finally reach Earth?

[Haseowolf]

Language: Original Japanese

General Thoughts:
The Saiyan, Strongest Warriors in the Universe, Awaken!
This episode was a fun way to really, properly introduce Vegeta and Nappa as being cruel, savage villains and illustrate just how much power they have. They honestly just show up for fun, blow off the actual story going on here on Arlia, and just ruthlessly kill and destroy. I like Vegeta nonchalantly blowing up the whole planet, completely disregarding the touching emotional moment he's ruining because this planet wouldn't make them any money. I mean, I dislike it for Vegeta blowing up a whole planet at this point with seemingly no effort. Was the planet very tiny and easy to destroy? Also more things showing their ability to breathe in space when this clearly isn't a gag episode.

Catnap on the Serpent Road – Goku Takes a Tumble
Ooohkay, this was the first episode of this mostly-filler arc that really disappointed me. It really felt like we were just spinning wheels and doing nothing of use. Sure, we got to finally seen Tenshinhan, Chaozu, and Lunch together and what they're up to, but it was so devoid of soul or character that it was really just...whatever? Piccolo raising pyramids and destroying them was an odd training exercise gone awry, but it didn't end up doing much? Like, everyone kind of goes "Oh no, an earthquake. Let's chill a sec for it to end" and that's that. The first episode of Z I really don't care for.

Hands Off! Enma-sama's Secret Fruit
This episode is where it's at. This is fun, funny, entertaining filler. Goku's interaction with Goz and Mezu is fantastic. Goofy, silly Goku is something I'll miss down the line when we get to the more serious arcs. He's just a cheeky bastard this whole time and I love it. The animation was also top-notch, if I'm remembering correctly (it's been a week, I'm sorry!)

Such Sweet Temptation! The Snake Princess's Hospitality
Toei was on fire for these two weeks in terms of great filler. And I know I wasn't sure on the last episode if the animation and art was great or not due to my memory, but this episode looked INCREDIBLE. And hey, we got to see Goku's ass rendered so lovingly so that's a plus. I loved the design of Snake Princess and all her cronies. You rock that furry boa, hunny. I will laugh every time Goku flips Princess Snake on her back during their dance still thinking this is Kaio.

Escape from Piccolo! Gohan Summons a Storm
Just watched this one this morning and while not as fantastic as the last two, this episode was fun. That poor Sabertooth Tiger; Gohan is running your thin. I will say that, in a series about people flying around and shooting lasers out of their hands, I find Gohan, a 4 and a half year old, building a sand skimmer and a boat to be the most unrealistic thing I've seen in Dragon Ball. Yes, he's smart and reads lots of books, but when would ChiChi have handed him a book that went into detail about building these kinds of things?? She's only giving him textbooks for math, literature, history, etc. Vehicle building likely isn't part of his curriculum. COME ON. Either way, I had fun. Also I'm disappointed that Gohan doesn't actually have the X-Men ability to summon storms and one just shows up where he is. That's false advertising.


Entertainment Factor: I'll say this batch of episodes was pretty entertaining, sans episode 12. So I guess I'd give entertainment factor a 3.5/5

Animation: The animation and art for these episodes was mostly alright. Princess Snake's episode stands out as the best looking of the whole bunch.

Questions: Seriously, is boat-building ridiculous to anyone else? Or do Japanese curriculum for elementary students include building these kinds of things?

[Ajay]

Questions:[/b] Seriously, is boat-building ridiculous to anyone else? Or do Japanese curriculum for elementary students include building these kinds of things?

Haha, he's a smart cookie~ I find all the religious connections so on the nose and even more bizarre during this portion. We've got snake temptations, apples, rafts, and crazy biblical storms. Dragon Ball's never shied away from using religious references, but this stuff is mental with how condensed it is.

[Haseowolf]

Haha, he's a smart cookie~ I find all the religious connections so on the nose and even more bizarre during this portion. We've got snake temptations, apples, rafts, and crazy biblical storms. Dragon Ball's never shied away from using religious references, but this stuff is mental with how condensed it is.

He's so smart he's got knowledge without even reading about it! And wow, I never even thought about the religious ties with these episodes. That's added whole new dimension to how I think about them - thank you for pointing that out!

[gaberparadiso]

Episode 11

General thoughts: this episode is not as good as I remembered, but it's not terrible, either. The beginning is nice, with Gohan finally outsmarting the dinosaur, and even cutting off and cooking a piece of his tail. And we immediately find the first problem, which occurs also in the manga: HOW did Gohan learn to shoot ki blasts? They never showed him trying before. It just happened. I wish they analyzed this "retcon" better in the anime. The main plot is not bad, as we see the two Saiyans in action on Arlia. And while I enjoy them being ruthless, the episode is quite repetitive, probably because these Arlian guys never stood a chance against Vegeta and Nappa. I admit some parts made me laugh, like Nappa's rape face before his Bakuhatsu-ha or Nappa licking Yedi's blood from his cheek (whilst being unintentionally funny). Iizuka and Horikawa's evil laughter at the end was amusing, too. Unfortunately, the subplot with the two Arlian lovers wasn't needed, and the Lunch cutscene brought nothing valuable to the story. I really don't care about her at this point of the series.

Entertainment factor: the direction is the main problem of this episode: it's quite poor. Cutscenes are not shown smartly and succeed in interrupting the main story constantly. We GET IT, Goku's running across Serpent Road, he hasn't reached its end, yet and sadly for us.

Animation: impressive storyboarding from Yoshihiro Ueda, who is back after only 3 weeks. He managed to create a solid atmosphere for both Earth and Arlia, where we can spot some quite appealing framings. https://twitter.com/DBanimators/status/ ... 5683378176 In terms of artwork, Takeuchi's corrections are slightly less dominant than usual, allowing some artstyles to shine more. For example, Shimanuki is easily recognizable, despite his ears looking more Takeuchi-esque and Iizuka can be spot through her large chins and jaws. Animation-wise, the most appealing sequences are animated by Shimanuki (dinosaur chasing Gohan, cops chasing Lunch, Nappa knocking off Yedi's arm) and Hisada (Vegeta beheading an Arlian soldier, Nappa using his Bakuhatsu-ha), and the uncredited Takeuchi is likely responsible for Vegeta killing the Arlian king, as his trembling and coarse movements are fairly recognizable. Lastly, THIS. https://twitter.com/DBanimators/status/ ... 8239627267

Music: at this point I should probably ignore their bad habit of reusing the same BGM twice, but I can't help it, it's very distracting at times. Although, the double usage of M721 is quite sensible and also appropriate for the sequence with Gohan. And, for the very first time, M727, Vegeta's theme, is playing on a scene actually involving Vegeta... AFTER 11 EPISODES. The remaining music choices are pretty much debatable, and even though M737, M740, M741 and M472 are fitting, they start sounding a tad annoying after being used over and over again for 11 episodes.

Overall score: 6,5/10. I'm being generous, some parts were funny, but they should've measured out cutscenes much better.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Didn't have the opportunity to watch the previous 5 so instead of playing forever catch up I'll jump straight to #11 here and catch up on the other 5 sometime later, otherwise knowing me I'll be behind and lose the enthusiasm of the rewatch.

[Bear]

Didn't have the opportunity to watch the previous 5 so instead of playing forever catch up I'll jump straight to #11 here and catch up on the other 5 sometime later, otherwise knowing me I'll be behind and lose the enthusiasm of the rewatch.

Same here. I’ve been really busy.

[Ajay]

Good luck! I know I'm asking a lot of everyone, but I don't wanna drag this out for much longer than a year.

[Taisa732]

Language: Japanese

General Thoughts: I've mentioned last week that in these fillers there are some that hit and some that miss. Unfortunately here we have a lot of the bad ones, where at best they are just meh. A very “brief” summery episode by episode.
Episode 11: Also known as how to fail to deliver a simple message. The idea is to show how the saiyans are evil and cruel, but honestly that's not the image you ultimately get. Yeah, they do destroy the planet in the end, but that is more of a jerk move than an evil one. For a race so sadistic and violent they don't do anything to actually show how bloodthirsty they should be.
Not only that but they actually do good things, like defeating the evil king, that seems more cruel than them, and reunite “Romeo and Juliet”.
At the end you almost sympathise with them because they come across like the good guys, and that is terrible if you consider that we should fear them.
This episode could have done so much more damage if the manga didn't deliver the same message a million times better, so buy the time they arrive on Earth you can forget this pointless and almost counterproductive episode.
On a positive note, this is the first time we can hear Ryo Horikawa for more than two sentences and he sound so different and young.
Episode 12: I have mixed filings with this one. I do like the fact that they took the time to show us the others gather so they can go train with Kami, but the way it's executed is boring at best. Every time they cut to Tenshinhan the episode just drags on slowly. Yamcha's “call at arms” was nice and simple, it took just a few scenes that had some value to them and added something to the character, even if was a little.
With Tenshinhan what do we discover about him after an entire episode? That he likes playing with water? I don't know, that is what I got from it.
Boring and forgetful episode that could have been so much more. Simply a wasted opportunity.
Episode 12: Oh boy, do I have a bone to pick with this one... first of all it's already an “Ebisawa episode”, so there is nothing appealing to look at both graphically or in the animation. But that's for an other section.
Second, you know what they say, the worst way to end a story is the “it was all a dream” gimmick. Well, they are wrong... this is the worst way to end a story. I would have grandly have Goku wake up still in the middle of the path, at least he was going somewhere.
Let me put it this way, when you watch a filler you know well that its there to waste your time, 20 (or whatever) minutes where the story doesn't exactly proceed forward and at most you get some small little thing out of it. But this ending infuriates me because Goku is just wasting time. And not because he isn't doing anything important, that's a definition of filler, but because he ends up at Enma's, and that seems like a middle finger to the audience. I don't care he has a magical fruit that makes him run faster, you are still telling me that he has to start all over and any progress he made up until now is just gone to shit?! Are you serious?!
I swear, whenever I finish this episode I end up angry because of that stupid ending. And I haven't even touched upon the two insufferable hell guards with there catchphrase they repeat at the end of every phrase they say. Or the fact that we are stuck watching Ebisawa's horrendous running cycles for most of the episode.
The only good thin I can say is that at least we can see adult Upa, just sorry it happened in this shitty one.
Episode 14: Not much to say. Goku's fillers just seem to be a void of nothing. At least this one has a better artistic quality and you can look at that if anything.
Episode 15: Honestly an other simply boring episode. Usually I even forget it exists until I start watching it.
With that said I do have to admit there are a lot of small little things that add up and make me dislike it.
First of all nothing happens a part form Gohan running around trying to figure out it's and island. And that is already a problem for me, because obviously “Gohan's training grounds” is in the main land, just look at the map (https://orig00.deviantart.net/7ef9/f/20 ... 7te5a2.jpg). I don't know why that bothers me so much, it just does.
Second I can't believe Piccolo ends up so distracted he doesn't notice Gohan is running away until it's too late. I get he's training and all, but he also is relying on Gohan. He still doesn't care too much, but if he decided he wants to train him it means he wants him alive until the saiyans arrive. So, knowing Piccolo, it's more like him to keep an eye on him, even if it means just to keep Gohan's ki in check.
Third reason I'm not a fan of this particular episode is that Gohan, at this point, shouldn't have any more motivation to escape, especially after the robot and the dinosaur episodes. He isn't a scary little boy any more because of the lessons he learns with those experiences.
I've read that people find his reaction to Nappa a step back, but I agree with the fact that one thing is a mean looking dinosaur you can toy around with, another thing is a brutal enemy that slaughters your comrades who are more experienced fighters.
For me this is a step back. Living in the wild for almost six months and then decide to go home. He misses his mummy, well tough he should be used to it by know.

Entertainment Factor: Nope. Skip everything. Nothing is entertaining or interesting. Like I said, at best they are meh, at worst it's episode 13.

Animation: It's not good even in this department. A side from episodes 13 in places and 14, the highlight of the week in terms of animation quality, the rest is bad. Not going back to Ebisawa, but a lot of mistakes and most of all... is it so difficult to animate hair moving? No, no it's not. If you have a running cycle your character's hair has to move with him.
And it doesn't happen once, there are countless occasions where it happens in different episodes. Come on! It's seriously not that hard. Even if you want to have a very simplistic movement it's only 3 or 4 frames you need to add there, and they are in-betweens.
I'm sorry, but this really annoyed me.
On top of that I've noticed a mistake in episode 14 (guess not even Studio Junio was perfect this time around). At the beginning of the episode Gohan is grabbing on to a rock that disappears even if he's still holding it. Guess it's just a mistake on the xsheet.

- There are a lot of anime-exclusive characters and events in these episodes, how naturally do you feel they fit into the story?

This one is tough. Despite me not liking episode 13 I do have to say that the two guards are at least consistent in the environment. If anything they fit naturally in Dragon Ball's hell.
With that said I think that everybody else is a bit out of place. “Romeo and Juliet” always seemed a bit misplaced, like they don't belong in Dragon Ball. At the same time the Princess and servants literally are in the wrong place.
Serpent path should be somewhere in “paradise”, so an evil presence like her doesn't belong, she is more of a hellish character.

- As a follow-up to that, Vegeta and Nappa are given an early focus in these episodes; do you feel this hurts or helps their impact when they finally reach Earth?

I've already talked about episode 11 and like I said I think the message didn't come across how it should have.
I won't repeat myself, but I well add on that there are two ways to look at it. If your analysing just the sayan saga you can't deny that this episode is contradictory to everything else.
On the other hand, knowing what we know today about saiyans and about Vegeta you can look at it and think “well, he was kind of a good guy form the start after all”.

[gaberparadiso]

Episode 12

General thoughts: okay, I admit I had no expectations about this episode, and I was right: there's no actual plot in this one, but more like several subplots (Gohan and Piccolo, Lunch and Tenshinhan, Goku in Other World). The plot with Lunch is incredibly dull, she wasn't that pleasant here and I fail to get the point of giving her so much screen time. Why? Ironically, I can empathize with Tenshinhan's indifference towards her, because that's exactly how I feel about this subplot: I don't care about it. I guess they wanted to create another episode involving Ten-Lunch shipping, which NEVER took off, because blonde Lunch loves him, but blue-haired Lunch is pretty much indifferent, much like Tenshinhan himself. Then, about the other subplot... I can totally buy Piccolo destroying a pyramid, BUT I won't positively buy it as a cause for an earthquake, which even reaches Tenshinhan's place. I call BS on that one. Despite this, I reckon the plot with Goku is even more stupid than these, because it's basically a stupid excuse for a filler. At least, the other stories had the chance of building up some character moments, and they FAILED. Gohan chasing the dinosaur was kinda funny, though. Needless to say, Suzuoki as Tenshinhan is UNBEATABLE.

Entertainment factor: again, there's not a single plot, but a BUNCH of subplots, so its pacing is obviously fragmentary and disjointed.

Animation: as expected from Daisuke Nishio's storyboarding, the background is mostly composed of marvelous natural landscapes. These are so beautiful to look at, each scenery has its identity and natural recognition. Nishio is totally into nature. Scrolling down the credits, we bump into another Last House episode, after 4 weeks from last time. Their artstyle is always soft and round, and fits female characters perfectly. Regardless, identifying animation is really tough due to Uchiyama's strong corrections, but a few scenes had pretty much recognizable timings: especially in Shida's case, who animated Lunch shooting Chaozu with her machine gun, and Goku falling into HFIL. While Ohara most likely animated Tenshinhan's training at the waterfall.

Music: I think the earthquake wide range was a mere excuse for playing M740 and M741 for the umpteenth time. Apart from this, the music placement is pretty much okay, with several DB tracks, like an alternative version of movie 3 title card (Chaozu seeing food on the table), or the unreleased Out of Control which comes from the very first DB episode and is used when Goku is falling down to HFIL. Fitting. Also, Super Divine Poison is back.

Overall score: 5/10, it's not an episode I'd rewatch again.

[gaberparadiso]

Episode 13

General thoughts: for instance, I like the design of the Home for Infinite Losers, with pink skies, yellow mountains and fountains with red water. Also the two ogres' designs look interesting. Sadly, this is where the good things end, because these two are quite obnoxious. I know their purpose is to tease Goku, but in this context it's more like a waste of time. And that's what this episode is: A WASTE OF TIME. Especially in the 2nd half, in which Goku has to chase the red ogre (Mez?) in order to tell him how to escape from Hell. And while I think their chase is engaging at times, it just doesn't have a point. The deus ex machina of Enma-sama's drawer is also pretty sloppy, and if only they had used a better device, I might've bought it. As for Lunch's cutscene, it doesn't need to exist at this point, she's sadly a doomed character. I mean, we get to see adult Upa, but I fail to get the point of this scene. Was it to show how her personality changes when she sneezes? WE GET IT. SHE'S A WEIRD GIRL. YOU ALREADY EXPLAINED IT TOO MANY TIMES IN DB. Let's look ahead.

Entertainment factor: the pacing is alright. The biggest problem is that we are not supposed to be focused on RACES in HELL.

Animation: pretty inconsistent storyboarding from Mitsuo Hashimoto. He made an okay-ish transition of Goku and Lunch gazing bottom-up during the 1st half, and some HFILish sceneries look good, but nothing feels actually captivating. Pretty much a missed opportunity to "improve" a Studio Live episode. And speaking of Ebisawa, he animates at least 85% of the entire episode, with Hiroshi Takeuchi animating a small portion of the 1st half, with the blue ogre (Goz?) challenging Goku to a fight, followed by the "sumo" fight. The reason of his limited key animation is probably due to his considerable presence in movie 1, which was released 11 days before this episode. Ebisawa's triangular design just doesn't work with KIDS and GIRLS: from Gohan's scucchia chin to Lunch's facial features.

Music: FINALLY some VARIETY. For the first time in DBZ, I really like the BGM placement. For instance, M740/M741/M742 weren't used (YAY), and several catchy DB tracks can be heard throughout this episode: M13 when Tenshinhan and Choazu climb Korin's tower, or M229 during the sumo fight. Notice that the unreleased Karin's Lesson To Goku (M635) was pitched normally, while in episode 2 it was high-pitched for some reason. Bumper Cars is also pretty catchy and represents the wackiness of Goku and the ogre's chase.

Overall thoughts: as a whole, it's not an episode I'd gladly rewatch. 5/10, not very good oni.

[Lord Beerus]

Episodes 11-15

Language: Japanese

General Thoughts: I feel like Vegeta and Nappa's antics on Arlia were really mishandled. I think it was pointless to try and portray the larger threat, compared to Raditz, looming on Earth, as characters who have somewhat heroic traits. Vegeta and Nappa shouldn't have entertained any of the creatures on Planet Arlia in the way they did, like defeating the evil rule. They should have just arrived on that planet and instantly nuked it. That would have made for one hell of a more effective and efficient impression of those characters. We really didn't need a full episode focused on those two from the get-go. And if you wanted you main antagonist(s) to have an episodes worth of screen-time to themselves in the debut episode, make sure the content fits in with there much more supposedly meaning and dangerous demeanor(s).

Goku's antics on Snake Way were absurdly dragged out. I fucking hated that after all of Goku's hard work, he basically had to start over again and run Snake's Way from the beginning. I also didn't care for Gozu or Mezu either. I found their character boring and kinda irritable.

Seeing Upa all grown up was really wonderful to see.

Seeing Gohan trial and tribulations in preparing for the Saiyans was nice, if also feeling a little repetitive.

Entertainment Factor:Without a doubt the weakest batch of episodes yet. All of the episodes felt quite disjointed and fragmented with the multiple subplots that were occurring in most of the episodes. And the episodes that focused on single plot line were just uninteresting.

Animation: I found the direction and animation of Vegeta and Nappa's rampage on Arlia to be very good. Not much else to say.

[gaberparadiso]

Episode 14

General thoughts: gonna state the obvious, this episode contains fan disservice, as Goku's buttcheeks are the VERY LAST (and least) thing I'd ever want to see. I get that they wanted to show Princess Snake's embarrassment, but it's totally UNNECESSARY. Anyway, this episode follows the same pattern as ep. 9: starts off well, with Goku running across Serpent Road, Piccolo's mental training and Krillin and the others at Kami's palace, but collapses after 3-4 minutes. Much like the previous entry, it's another waste of time. Princess Snake is a very forgettable character, and her real form is also predictable. With that name, we couldn't expect her to become a ladybug. Although, I'd lie if I said I didn't like the tango scene, which had a funny twist, and Goku mistaking Princess Snake for Kaiosama fit his naive character enough. But still, I can't hide how boring this episode was overall. The ending part was strangely SILENT with only BGM playing, as if they wanted to include a waste of time WITHIN another waste of time.

Entertainment factor: a filler episode has to be funny, creative, dynamic and engaging, not BORING, POINTLESS and REPETITIVE. Its pacing is clearly affected by this aspect. Showing only ONE amusing moment is not enough.

Animation: another missed opportunity for a good storyboarding, much like the HFIL episode. In fact, here Minoru Okazaki's storyboards look bland and inconsistent. He created decent sceneries, but it actually gives an idea of playing it safe. It lacks of originality and backbone. Then again, I guess Studio Junio animators kinda make up for this inconsistency. And that's quite correct: after all, this is a golden age for Minoru Maeda's staff. As a whole, Saiyan saga represents Satou, Naka, Ide and Eguchi at their best, at their most flourishing time for their careers. Satou's Goku looks so proud and confident, Ide's expressions are unique and Nakatsuru finally nailed Gohan's proportions. Animation-wise, the highlight is probably Satou's tango scene, which made me think "Yes, this was animated by the '1st SSJ transformation' guy". https://twitter.com/DBanimators/status/ ... 2479002624 Regardless, this also pissed me off: observing such excellent artwork on a worthless episode feels more than a waste.

Music: hit and miss placement. Oddly enough, M732, which belongs to M7** compilation, is played only in this episode of the Saiyan arc, since we can hear it most of time during Namek arc. Then, I love the usage of the unreleased Piccolo's Overwhelming Confidence and M229 (when Goku eats, played twice), but the placement of DB's sax sexy theme during Princess Snake's appearance is... awkward. She's not much of a sexualized character, so why wasting the epic sax theme here?? And of course, looping M725 over and over again.

Overall thoughts: boredom wins. 4,5/10.

[nickzambuto]

I will say that, in a series about people flying around and shooting lasers out of their hands, I find Gohan, a 4 and a half year old, building a sand skimmer and a boat to be the most unrealistic thing I've seen in Dragon Ball. Yes, he's smart and reads lots of books, but when would ChiChi have handed him a book that went into detail about building these kinds of things?? She's only giving him textbooks for math, literature, history, etc. Vehicle building likely isn't part of his curriculum. COME ON.
Questions:[/b] Seriously, is boat-building ridiculous to anyone else? Or do Japanese curriculum for elementary students include building these kinds of things?

I like it. I'm used to comic books with super geniuses like Reed Richards and Lex Luthor, and Dragon Ball itself has several such characters like Bulma, so it isn't hard for me to accept the idea that Gohan is another genius. I know he's only four, but Peter Parker was a prodigy too. Imagine if all of Goku's fighting intelligence, was instead focused on academics. Goku was a master by the time he was 11, literally, the only people superior to him were the immortal grandmaster sennin like Tsuru, Tao and Kame, normal men have to train their entire lives to become as skilled as Goku was as a child, so it's fine if Gohan is a proficient engineer by the time he's four/five assuming he inherited Goku's natural aptitude, simply directed at a different topic. IIRC, he was a top student at Orange Star High School, despite the fact that he'd only self studied his whole life and never even knew anybody who was educated, so Gohan is definitely a prodigy no matter how you slice it.

And him building sand skimmers and boats is as much of a testament to his will and optimism as Goku overcoming an unstoppable villain. I found Gohan's can-do attitude rather inspiring.

I definitely wish Gohan's superior intelligence was a more significant attribute for the rest of the story. Although that is why I love his Dragon Ball Online epilogue where he writes a book explaining Ki in scientific terms, and this leads to a whole generation of new martial artists.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Don't really feel like getting to in depth here with #11-12, I didn't take notes while watching but I do agree with Lord Beerus about Planet A, seems kinda dumb and boring stretching it out and the bug creatures were not well designed so in turn made that episode insufferable to slog through that and all the sub plots running through, Gohan, Lunch, Goku like how much sub plot for filler do you need?

#12 was a bit better as it primarily focused on Lunch but it falls into the trap again of so many filler sub plots just stick to one please.

Animation is fine nothing really to comment on but damn if Horikawa doesn't sound soooo goood what the hell happened to him in modern DB? He sounds soooooo good here.

[gaberparadiso]

Episode 15

General thoughts: much like the previous entries, my expectations about this episode were really low, basically non-existent. In fact, this is a typical filler episode where nothing important happens, and even so I've got some issues with it. For instance, apparently, after 6 months in the wild, ONLY NOW Gohan wants to go home. Then, as for the already-mentioned "Gohan being able to build a boat" bit, I think you're all right: I call BS on that one. I'm aware of Gohan having a higher literacy rate than his father as a kid, BUT I don't think he's THAT expert, either. Building boats without a qualification? Come on. Makes even less sense than him firing a ki blast in ep. 11. These details aside, the rest of this episode is kinda forgettable. Piccolo's training is enjoyable to watch, but nothing did really catch my attention content-wise. Oddly enough, the saber-tooth tiger is portrayed as a really sympathetic character. You actually feel kinda sorry for it.

Entertainment factor: not very well directed, but I guess its pacing is fine. Again, it's not an ambitious episode, so I don't mind it.

Animation: on the other hand, this episode really stands out in terms of visuals. For starters, Takenouchi's storyboard looks beautiful and stunning. Clearly a considerable step up over his last work in ep. 10. I really adored his usage of Gohan's projected shade, and passages like dawns and sunsets are executed marvelously. This is another Uchiyama episode after only 3 weeks from last episode, and the animation staff is reduced to only two key animators (clearly the most qualified, though). Thus, it's not a surprise if some figures seem to have no shading whatsoever, especially at the end, which I think it was animated by (uncredited) Uchiyama himself. Regardless, this is a very animated episode. Both Ohara and Shida give life to the scenes, with their very well made animation. In fact, I enjoyed the animation so much that I almost forgot what this episode was made for. It undoubtedly overshadows its contents of a mile. Naturally, they recycled animation, like Goku running across Serpent Road or Piccolo fighting against his clones, but it's understandable considering the tiny staff list. Then again, with an animator like Shida, who has the ability to make simple cuts complex... I cannot complain. https://twitter.com/DBanimators/status/ ... 2012848128

Music: they used lots of DB tracks, especially from movie 1, which express the restful and quiet atmosphere of the island. But I believe Piccolo arc soundtrack makes far more sense here, since they're some of Kikuchi's best composed pieces. M504 and M518 sound fantastic as always, and the unreleased Piccolo's Overwhelming Confidence and Piccolo Knows No Bounds are such gems. And because of this, I don't mind the reuse of M7** at all. It's not that problematic this time.

Overall score: unfortunately, contents are especially important, and that's where this episode fell flat. 5/10.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

#13-15

Basically more of the problems as #11-12. Not great, when I find myself playing my 3ds while these episodes are playing says it all really. Again I didn't make notes didn't think it was necessary to get exhaustive in these types of episodes, they have so many ideas for filler but like I said having several filler sub plots is just self defeatist and kills the whole point pick on thread and stick with it.

Again the voice acting sounds soooooooooo much better than modern DB it is amazing, Nozawa sounds so youthful as Goku I love it!

[TrunksTrevelyan0064]

Episodes covered: Dragon Ball Z 11-15 (Dragon Ball 164-168)


-EPISODE 11-
* The Gohan-gathers-berries part seems like one of those scenes that could've been ruined by poor animation, but it was animated quite nicely. And that dinosaur, dude. It's like the Pokémon Onix - looks friggin' amazing and badass, but cannot put up a fight to save its life. On another note, the dinosaur trying to eat Gohan but failing gave me flashbacks to an old flash animation called "Walk Smash Walk" by Sakupen. Anyone else remember that?
* Vegeta presses his scouter to summon the spaceships, whereas later on he uses a remote control for that. This could've been a nice opportunity to show the remote control early on so that it doesn't come completely out of nowhere later on Earth. Buuuut that manga chapter hadn't come out yet (September 1989, whereas this episode aired in July 1989) so that explains that.
* I'm surprised Tenshinhan didn't appear in this episode. You have several characters mentioning him, but viewers who started with Z would have no idea who this "Tenshinhan" guy is. If he'd gotten just one short scene here, it could've allowed those new viewers to at least put a face to the name. Unless the writers were hyping him up for some reason ...? (I mean he's my personal favorite, but that doesn't mean everyone gets hyped to see this not-all-that-significant character)

-EPISODE 12-
* This episode does feel strange in that not much happens, we're just kinda watching everyone train/survive. Which I don't mind at all because I'm not in any hurry, but if you're eager to "get to the good stuff", I can see this episode being a bit of a drag.
* That said, Piccolo training with pyramids is badass, no ifs and/or buts about it.
* I have no idea what they did to make that dinosaur-freaking-out animation look the way it did, but it's fantastic.
* Um, Lunch - if you want to get in Tenshinhan's good books, shooting Chiaotzu might have an adverse effect.
* Tenshinhan going "now we can finally train in peace" when Lunch leaves is interestingly similar to the far-off Gohan/Goten/Videl situation.
* Wow. Never expected the narrator to mention Umigame of all characters. I like that turtle. Shame he never gets to do anything despite being like the third character introduced in all of Dragon Ball...!

-EPISODE 13-
* Tenshinhan and Chiaotzu have already climbed Karin Tower by this point, haven't they? Before the 23rd Budôkai? Still, I guess can't hurt to do it again...?
* Also, can't Goku... y'know... use bukûjutsu...? Does that not work in Hell...? Ehhhhhh. WAIT LATER ON IN THE EPISODE HE DOES USE IT WHAT
* Missed opportunity - a race between the two speed demons, Mezu (I think that's the red one) and Butta, once the latter arrives down there in later filler material!
* That end shot of Nappa and Vegeta smirking at each other, with that upbeat music playing, bizarrely yet hilariously gave me a "sentimental happy memories" vibe. It felt like something you might see in a classic Hanna-Barbera cartoon.

-EPISODE 14-
* Oh lord that animation. What a way to open an episode. I went into this thinking "oh no I don't like the Snake Princess episode" but at least it looks great!
* I can't help but mention Piccolo's theme every time it's played, I love it so much. It just has a demonic quality to it to remind you that yes, this still is the Great Demon King. Interesting that we hear less and less of the theme as the series goes on; almost as though it gradually diminishes along with Piccolo's demonic side.
* I am so glad Goku is oblivious to flirting and sexual advances; otherwise this Snake Princess stuff might've gotten on my nerves, like "don't fall for the obvious trap you horny dumbass". Not that that's really what the Princess is going for, but many victims of hers would still get that impression. Goku, however, is refreshingly pure. I forgot that he threw her on the floor out of nowhere; that was funny.
* Action music as Goku chows down; love it. IT EVEN PAUSES IN BETWEEN SERVINGS this is amazing.

-EPISODE 15-
* This episode gave me huge Legend of Zelda vibes. Might have something to do with the little sword-wielding kid going on action-packed survival adventures.
* While it's cool to watch Piccolo spar against himself - and him "merging back into one" looks so hilariously violent - those scenes did feel a bit out-of-place. It felt like Piccolo was in this episode for no real reason. It works in combination with the end of the next episode, but that means you don't really get what the writers were going for unless you watch the two episodes back-to-back.
* I can stretch my suspension of disbelief enough to be okay with Gohan knowing how to build a boat, but to then mention that he can't swim... Ehhh? In Gohan's words when he finds out Goten can turn Super Saiyan but not fly: "What happened to learning things in the right order?"
* On a positive note, Masako Nozawa's performance stood out to me, portraying this scared child who's telling himself to stay strong as he's trying to tough out a storm.


- There are a lot of anime-exclusive characters and events in these episodes, how naturally do you feel they fit into the story?
Something about the Arlians feels "off"; their designs don't "feel" very Toriyama to me and remind me more of random lackluster aliens that show up in DBGT. Gozu and Mezu, on the other hand, are delightfully dumb and fit in quite seamlessly, adding a small extra layer of world-building. As for the Snake Princess... I think she fits in okay, and she has a memorable design, but as a character I didn't find her compelling enough to warrant having the focus on her for a full episode. Easy to forget that the sabre-toothed tiger is also anime-exclusive. He's so much fun to watch and it really feels like he leaped straight out of the manga.

- As a follow-up to that, Vegeta and Nappa are given an early focus in these episodes; do you feel this hurts or helps their impact when they finally reach Earth?
It seems fine as we don't really get a feel for how insanely powerful they are (making it a big shock when we eventually do find out), aside from the fact that they can apparently blow up planets. But by this point we've already seen Jackie Chun and Piccolo destroy the moon, so it makes sense that the Saiyans would be capable of at least that much. The only thing I don't like is that Nappa's powering-up scene looks nearly identical to the one on Earth.


Favorite character: Great to see Lunch, Upa and Bora again, and I'm biased towards Tenshinhan, but I don't think they were featured enough to warrant me calling any of them my favorites here. Nobody else really stood out to me in a big steal-the-show kind of way. I enjoyed Goku's playful optimism, but... Actually, you know what? This round goes to one of the few anime-exclusive characters that I did get sorta kinda attached to: the sabre-toothed tiger!
Previous favorites: Raditz, Gohan.

[Cipher]

Admittedly lost interest after doing episode 1 the other week (I guess I've just seen the beginning of Z too many times; even trying to make it language study didn't help), but managed to sneak in a marathon session for these five.

Version: Japanese

Holistically: Since I watched these as a set, it's going to be hard to separate my commentary into separate reactions for each. As a whole, despite Z starting off with an atmosphere I think both does and does not resemble the Dragon Ball anime series before it, the episodic entries here feel like classic Dragon Ball filler, albeit in one instance replacing the traditional fantasy trappings with sci-fi ones. (Though the planet the Saiyans ransack is fantasy-infused in its own right, with knights and princesses and a naming schema based on mythological lost cultures.) These feel perfectly of a piece with the episodes prior to both the 22nd and 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, albeit with a slightly grimmer tone whenever anyone but Goku's involved.

Yet, despite this being perhaps the most iconic string of filler episodes in the entire franchise (or at least the first half of it), I felt the slow pacing this time, even within the episodic adventures. And in and around three classic one-offs, we have maybe the first two instances of episodes in which genuinely nothing of consequence or interest happens, a sign of things to come (not so much this arc, where I think these might be the nadir, but the pacing implosion on Namek is only a year or so in air time away).

These episodes hang in the Dragon Ball/Z divide in more ways than one. Also, say good-bye to Lunch, who weirdly gets a lot of screen time in this batch and I believe only has one more appearance to come before the end of the series.

I don't know if I've just been through this part of the series one too many times, but even the more fun episodes felt a bit lethargic here. I suppose it doesn't help that the range of Kikuchi's soundtrack in use at this point in Z makes it probably my least favorite-scored part of any of the original run (DB-GT). Everything's a bit dreary.

Episode 11: The Saiyan, Strongest Warriors in the Universe, Awaken!

Fun episode; classic and enjoyable filler. We get an adaptation of Piccolo noting Gohan's progress in the manga this chapter, although unlike the original story, this doesn't mark the transition into his more direct training. (It does, however, give us a more capable Gohan for the next batch of filler episodes.) If you didn't know this was a manga bit, you'd probably never guess.

The meat of the episode really feels like a Dragon Ball between-arc filler, even with the sci-fi elements and villain focus. Despite the alien setting, Vegeta and Nappa are up to pure fantasy-setting hijinks, and if the episode ended with them solving a problem instead of destroying a planet, you could easily imagine a younger Goku in their place.

Powers never to be seen again: Vegeta's telekinetic bond with Nappa, Saiyans just chilling in the void of space like it ain't no thing, Saiyan arc Vegeta destroying a planet with two fingers.

Episode 12: Catnap on the Serpent Road — Goku Takes a Tumble

It's, um, astounding how little happens this episode? We check in on Lunch and Tenshinhan, which would be fun for a minute, but it dominates the episode with bits of Goku's journey and Piccolo's training filling in the gaps. Goku falls of Snake Road and into Hell at the end, but surely we could have checked in on the gang being excited to train with God, Tenshinhan, Lunch and Chaozu within the first five minutes or so, gotten Goku off the road, and spent the last two-thirds of the episode with his journey in Hell.

Episode 13: Hands Off! Enma-sama’s Secret Fruit

A classic, classic episode, but I was less charmed by it this time around. Hell is mined for a great number of jokes, but maybe we could have lost one of Goku's escape attempts to merge this with the previous one?

I'd actually forgotten until checking the Kanzenshuu episode guide just now that the Tenshinhan B-plot does continue into this episode, so it makes even less sense to me that 12 and 13 were separate. No reason we couldn't have gotten the house scene with Lunch, and the gang arriving to pick up Tenshinhan, and have had that been enough of a glimpse into that.

It's unfair, since this is less a review of the individual episode and more about how it fits into the pacing as a whole, but when viewed marathon-mode, it's hard to separate one from the other.

Episode 14: Such Sweet Temptation! The Snake Princess’s Hospitality

This one maybe suffers a bit for coming right off of another mythology-based Goku adventure? I found myself less interested than I might have been if we hadn't just had a one-off along the same lines, and I probably would have felt the same way waiting a week in between episodes. There's nothing wrong with what we get in this episode, but outside of the Russian Roulette gag, not a whole lot that's super funny either. A victim of placement, I think. Meanwhile, the gang finally meet up at God's. For what it's worth, I do enjoy this more than 13.

Episode 15: Escape from Piccolo! Gohan Summons a Storm

A B- or C-plot even for filler episodes gets bumped up to the primary focus and this may be the worst episode of Z. The events it sets us up for next episode are pretty solid, but holy hell.

By episode 15, the original Dragon Ball had completed its first arc, GT had concluded a major mini-arc and was moving onto a bigger mystery, Kai was at the climax of the fight against Vegeta, and Super had completed its first arc.

And yet despite how much nothing we get in some of the episodes here, I at least appreciate the unexpected routes the full episodic adventures take, and that the in-betweeners don't try to do more with the characters than provide snapshots that fit in with the series. Thus, I wind up feeling more positively toward them than Super's recruitment episodes, despite how dull and Saturday-morning-ish this batch can become.

Characterization bits: I forget which episode features it, but there's a scene with Gyuu-Mao trying to get a dejected, cooped-up Chi-Chi to eat, and like, damn, Toei. That's a pretty sober depiction of depression for the series.

Tenshinhan and Lunch are both affected by these episodes, and neither I feel in a very positive way. Lunch moves squarely into stalker territory, acting as if Tenshinhan is the only man on earth despite constant unambiguous rejection, and Tenshinhan comes off as even more of a sexless weirdo than in the manga (and I mean even in comparison to the sexless weirdos who make up most of the cast). Rather than his focus making him more interesting, though, it just serves to strip away more humanity from a character who needs all the memorable characterization he can get. He doesn't even react to Lunch, really. It's strange.

Gohan really doesn't need the "I want to go home/now I'm more resolved" arc, though I do (spoiler alert) like what it leads to next time. I don't feel like it dovetails particularly well with the events of the battle once we get back into the manga adaptation. Doesn't work all that well coming after the stellar "Mr. Robot" episode, either, which is such a natural climax for his wilderness-training arc. Oh well.

Goku calls the Snake Princess cute. Let that one sink in.

- As a follow-up to that, Vegeta and Nappa are given an early focus in these episodes; do you feel this hurts or helps their impact when they finally reach Earth?

I certainly don't feel like it hurts anything, but it's so clearly removed from the normal flow of the serialization that it doesn't add much either. Nothing I think damages the series when included, but nothing that's missed when it's not.

Sad I missed commenting on "Mr. Robot." That one's great. Probably the best episode of the Saiyan-arc filler.

[Ajay]

Falling behind a bit, so gonna keep this a little briefer than usual.

Episode 11

General Thoughts: It's nice to see Lunch again, even if her role in these next few episodes isn't particularly exciting. Gohan having another run-in with the dinosaur that mirrors his first encounter is nice. Good showcase of his progression both strength and character-wise. Vegeta and Nappa's planet shenanigans are pretty dreadful - they don't feel like Dragon Ball and they amount to nothing.
Entertainment Factor: Easily the least entertaining episode of this batch.
Animation: In spite of that, it's the most well animated episode of the series so far! The folks at Seigasha have really gone all out here. It's a shame it's not on a better episode! Here are the major highlights:

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

The first two clips come primarily from Masahiro Shimanuki. He does a heck of a lot of good work in this arc, and as I think I mentioned in another thread, he'll be promoted to an animation supervisor in the next arc. The last comes from Kazuya Hisada, the recently promoted animator, who much like Shimanuki, will also find himself in a supervisory role later down the line. It's awesome to watch these guys really motivated to deliver the good stuff and prove themselves. Hisada, for example, appears pretty influenced by Shimanuki at this point. That'll soon change!

Episode 12

General Thoughts: Love the vibes in this episode. Tenshinhan training by waterfall in the mountains has such lovely Wuxia feel to it. Lunch shows up once again, and we get some little interactions between the two. They're not particularly groundbreaking, but they're the type of moments I quite like to see in filler - things I've imagined from reading the manga, but never got to see for realsies.

Piccolo's pyramid training is absolutely bizarre, as is the space alien music Illuminati thing Kikuchi's doing with the music, here. Whatever. It looks cool!
Entertainment Factor: Thoroughly enjoyed it, honestly. It doesn't actually progress the story in any way, but it's good training content, with a whole cast of characters.
Animation: It's a pretty standard Last House episode. Ohara and Shida provide a decent bit of movement, but there's not a lot to write home about.

Episode 13

General Thoughts: The depiction of Hell is pretty nice. I don't think it feels too at odds with Toriyama's own depictions in the new material. The visuals are a lot grimmer, but the overall ridiculous of its inhabitants is similar. Definitely doesn't feel too incongruous with everything.
Entertainment Factor: It's a lot of fun. Nice little theme park escapade away from Goku simply running down a road endlessly.
Animation: Like the last episode, it's just serviceable stuff. Like I've said in the past, Ebisawa's work isn't really at odds with any of the other supervisors just yet. It's still charming enough. Hashimoto's last storyboard was pretty flat, but this one's the total opposite, and is all the better for it.

Episode 14

General Thoughts: I quite like the Snake Princess stuff, though it gives me major Yu Yu Hakusho vibes rather than Dragon Ball. I guess it's because it's more of a traditional Japanese mythological depiction without a Toriyama twist. Not really the end of the world. It's certainly more in line with his work than those ghastly bug things from episode 11.
Entertainment Factor: It's engaging enough. I'm not in any hurry to rewatch the vast majority of this batch of episodes, but this one is hardly the worst offender.
Animation: Another Studio Junio episode, which means great art is here! Art is about all they have to offer this time around, though. It's a pretty static episode, and what movement there is, is fairly rudimentary.

Maeda's corrections are fairly light, so you get a good look at a whole range of different styles, here. Nakatsuru, Sato, Eguchi, and Ide, for example. It's a bit surreal to me looking back and seeing these stars all together at once.

Interestingly, Sato's drawing has two different paint jobs between the episode and recap in #15 - https://twitter.com/AnimeAjay/status/947904488156917760

Episode 15

General Thoughts: Really not a big fan of this one. Gohan's messing about with animals again, Piccolo's training again, Goku's running again. It offers up absolutely nothing new - it progresses nothing.
Entertainment Factor: Total snooze fest.
Animation: I have nothing to say other than point out the nice use of colour throughout the different environments. The episode has a nice atmosphere going for it, if nothing else.

-

- There are a lot of anime-exclusive characters and events in these episodes, how naturally do you feel they fit into the story?
With the exception of the Vegeta and Nappa bug-time, everything else fits pretty nicely. If it doesn't have a Toriyama twist to it, it at least feels Wuxia-inspired, and that's about all I can ask for.

- As a follow-up to that, Vegeta and Nappa are given an early focus in these episodes; do you feel this hurts or helps their impact when they finally reach Earth?
I don't think it really hurts anything, but it certainly doesn't add much. They barely even feel like characters. I'm much too lazy to look up where the manga was at this point, but I imagine when the scripts were being written, they didn't have much page-time. They're all a bit generic and hollow, here.