Hugo Boss wrote:I think Gohan is not quite as good as Goku in the same forms, but he seems very close when he sharps his fighting senses. In another hand, there is too much of a difference between SS3 Gotenks and Base Vegeta/Base Goku. There is also the fact that Gohan and Piccolo seem equal when fighting Saonel and Pirina until Gohan uses his “full power” mode. So, it could mean Gohan evolved to the point he doesn’t need Super Saiyan or his full power to compete with Piccolo. This is my opinion.
Yeah it's all kind of hard to say.
Base Goku and Final Form Frieza were supposed to be, or we originally all thought, were about equal I guess before.
That Final Form Frieza easily beat up Jimeze who easily beat up Base Gohan so...if Base Goku really was on par with Final Form Frieza then he should be comfortably above Gohan.
Also when Base Goku and Gohan fought, at first they were equal, Gohan went off and powered up and continued fighting and Goku didn't but they were still equal.
Perhaps Gohan or Saiyans in general have trouble against super speed warriors, while Freeza is more suited to them. Vegeta too used Super Saiyan when Katopesla increased his speed, but was doing well against the power form alone without it.
During Goku and Gohan’s fight, Piccolo warned Gohan to save his breath, so it could be that Gohan was wasting energy faster than Goku.
Hugo Boss wrote:I think Gohan is not quite as good as Goku in the same forms, but he seems very close when he sharps his fighting senses. In another hand, there is too much of a difference between SS3 Gotenks and Base Vegeta/Base Goku. There is also the fact that Gohan and Piccolo seem equal when fighting Saonel and Pirina until Gohan uses his “full power” mode. So, it could mean Gohan evolved to the point he doesn’t need Super Saiyan or his full power to compete with Piccolo. This is my opinion.
Yeah it's all kind of hard to say.
Base Goku and Final Form Frieza were supposed to be, or we originally all thought, were about equal I guess before.
That Final Form Frieza easily beat up Jimeze who easily beat up Base Gohan so...if Base Goku really was on par with Final Form Frieza then he should be comfortably above Gohan.
Also when Base Goku and Gohan fought, at first they were equal, Gohan went off and powered up and continued fighting and Goku didn't but they were still equal.
Perhaps Gohan or Saiyans in general have trouble against super speed warriors, while Freeza is more suited to them. Vegeta too used Super Saiyan when Katopesla increased his speed, but was doing well against the power form alone without it.
During Goku and Gohan’s fight, Piccolo warned Gohan to save his breath, so it could be that Gohan was wasting energy faster than Goku.
Your first point would also neatly tie up how Dyspo can take on SSG Goku without being super strong.
ZombieVito wrote:Jimeze only had the advantage against Gohan because of IT.
I don't know about that. It didn't seem to have any effect on Frieza.
Frieza told Gohan that he would have beaten him easily with Super Saiyan so it seems more of a power thing than a technique thing. Plus when Goku was shown fighting him he was in Super Saiyan aswell.
Which then goes back to Jimeze being above the Base Saiyans and in turn Final Form Frieza being far above the Base Saiyans.
ZombieVito wrote:Jimeze only had the advantage against Gohan because of IT.
I don't know about that. It didn't seem to have any effect on Frieza.
Frieza told Gohan that he would have beaten him easily with Super Saiyan so it seems more of a power thing than a technique thing. Plus when Goku was shown fighting him he was in Super Saiyan aswell.
Which then goes back to Jimeze being above the Base Saiyans and in turn Final Form Frieza being far above the Base Saiyans.
However, Freeza notes that he knew exactly how to counter this technique, whilst Goku and Gohan weren't noted for being able to do so.
Sure, Goku knows it himself and has used it to great effect against people, but he's never needed to defend against it. Same with Gohan.
It could be that they needed to turn Super Saiyan to up their strength to be able to follow it, like how when Goku and Vegeta turned SS against Universe 9 in order to break their ranks.
It's not necessarily just about the power, but more about needing a quick and intense power-up to break through some dangerous skills, like Instantaneous Movement or large numbers. Goku did the same against Krillin because he needed a quick and intense power-up to break through Krillin's strategy.
wolflonnie wrote:Regarding Vegeta vs Jiren, we can always chalk it up to Jiren having one moment off, and Vegeta being way too aggressive for what Jiren has prepared for.
All antagonists are taken off-guard at first by Vegeta's patented "ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK!" strategy
Yeah, like "oh look at this tryhard, so cute... WAITWAITWAIT DUDE DUDE STOP!"
Bullza wrote:
I don't know about that. It didn't seem to have any effect on Frieza.
Frieza told Gohan that he would have beaten him easily with Super Saiyan so it seems more of a power thing than a technique thing. Plus when Goku was shown fighting him he was in Super Saiyan aswell.
Which then goes back to Jimeze being above the Base Saiyans and in turn Final Form Frieza being far above the Base Saiyans.
However, Freeza notes that he knew exactly how to counter this technique, whilst Goku and Gohan weren't noted for being able to do so.
Sure, Goku knows it himself and has used it to great effect against people, but he's never needed to defend against it. Same with Gohan.
It could be that they needed to turn Super Saiyan to up their strength to be able to follow it, like how when Goku and Vegeta turned SS against Universe 9 in order to break their ranks.
It's not necessarily just about the power, but more about needing a quick and intense power-up to break through some dangerous skills, like Instantaneous Movement or large numbers. Goku did the same against Krillin because he needed a quick and intense power-up to break through Krillin's strategy.
Yeah, this.
Freeza even noted that if you know how, IT becomes child's play. I also don't think non gold Freeza is over base Saiyans anymore.
Goku already fought Goku Black who used IT on him. Goku also used it on Gohan when they fought. Can't remember if Kid Buu used it on Goku as well.
Did Goku use IT on Frieza in their rematch?
It's odd either way because Goku is a fighting genius, so skilled that he can counter Hit by predicting where attacks are going to be before they even happen. He got around the Invisible Ki blasts quickly and the Time Storage dimension trick.
Yet he can't get around the IT which is a technique he's highly familiar with and seen others use....yet Frieza who shouldn't have anywhere near the fighting skill can?
Bullza wrote:Goku already fought Goku Black who used IT on him. Goku also used it on Gohan when they fought. Can't remember if Kid Buu used it on Goku as well.
Did Goku use IT on Frieza in their rematch?
It's odd either way because Goku is a fighting genius, so skilled that he can counter Hit by predicting where attacks are going to be before they even happen. He got around the Invisible Ki blasts quickly and the Time Storage dimension trick.
Yet he can't get around the IT which is a technique he's highly familiar with and seen others use....yet Frieza who shouldn't have anywhere near the fighting skill can?
It's the same logic by which U7 team was having trouble with a invisible guy when yamcha had beaten a invisible opponent even before 22 world tournament.
Why power levels are important?
Spoiler:
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Bullza wrote:Goku already fought Goku Black who used IT on him. Goku also used it on Gohan when they fought. Can't remember if Kid Buu used it on Goku as well.
Did Goku use IT on Frieza in their rematch?
It's odd either way because Goku is a fighting genius, so skilled that he can counter Hit by predicting where attacks are going to be before they even happen. He got around the Invisible Ki blasts quickly and the Time Storage dimension trick.
Yet he can't get around the IT which is a technique he's highly familiar with and seen others use....yet Frieza who shouldn't have anywhere near the fighting skill can?
Frieza indicated that he was familiar with Instant Transmission in the RoF arc. When Sorbet was confused by Goku disappearing, Frieza explained it to him using its name and planet of origin. He might have fought IT users or Yardrats before, I guesd.
Hawk9211 wrote:It's the same logic by which U7 team was having trouble with a invisible guy when yamcha had beaten a invisible opponent even before 22 world tournament.
Well Yamcha only beat the Invisible Man after they made him visible. I wouldn't say they had too much trouble with him either except Android 18.
Goku and Gohan have shown to fight people while blinded though so it shouldn't make much difference or maybe Android 18 just isn't as good.
BlueBasilisk wrote:Frieza indicated that he was familiar with Instant Transmission in the RoF arc. When Sorbet was confused by Goku disappearing, Frieza explained it to him using its name and planet of origin. He might have fought IT users or Yardrats before, I guesd.
BlueBasilisk wrote:Frieza indicated that he was familiar with Instant Transmission in the RoF arc. When Sorbet was confused by Goku disappearing, Frieza explained it to him using its name and planet of origin. He might have fought IT users or Yardrats before, I guesd.
Oh did he? I can't remember that.
I don't remember which episode it was exactly but I'm pretty sure it's the one where Goku and Vegeta first come back to Earth.
Hawk9211 wrote:It's the same logic by which U7 team was having trouble with a invisible guy when yamcha had beaten a invisible opponent even before 22 world tournament.
Well Yamcha only beat the Invisible Man after they made him visible. I wouldn't say they had too much trouble with him either except Android 18.
Goku and Gohan have shown to fight people while blinded though so it shouldn't make much difference or maybe Android 18 just isn't as good.
BlueBasilisk wrote:Frieza indicated that he was familiar with Instant Transmission in the RoF arc. When Sorbet was confused by Goku disappearing, Frieza explained it to him using its name and planet of origin. He might have fought IT users or Yardrats before, I guesd.
Oh did he? I can't remember that.
Yamcha was already pressing the advantage over Invisible Man before, hence Baba started to sing to distract him.
Last edited by Olympian on Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We saw that most of the warriors who received this attack were either unconscious or were eliminated (Kale was knocked out, Hitto was eliminated).
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Vegeta will not be eliminated and will still fight Jiren on EP 123, so will he be the first to resist the attack and stand in the arena?
Goku received a similar attack on EP 109, and he needed the Kaioken to hold onto the edge of the arena
In a way, this is related to the characters' power level too
Bullza wrote:So according to the Episode 123 information from Herms, Vegeta gets stomped without putting up any real fight at all.
Then it also mentions that Goku is now at full power so he's going to use his full power Super Saiyan Blue.....does that mean he wasn't using his full power against Koichiarator and Aniraza?
Goku lost all of his stamina "again" after using UI against Kefla. Stated by the narrator...Now in episode 123, Goku has regained all of his stamina and is now able to use his full power.
TheSaiyanGod wrote:Well, about Jiren's Power Impact on EP 122
We saw that most of the warriors who received this attack were either unconscious or were eliminated (Kale was knocked out, Hitto was eliminated).
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Vegeta will not be eliminated and will still fight Jiren on EP 123, so will he be the first to resist the attack and stand in the arena?
Goku received a similar attack on EP 109, and he needed the Kaioken to hold onto the edge of the arena
In a way, this is related to the characters' power level too
Its more related to writting, instead of power level. We also need context.
Hawk9211 wrote:It's the same logic by which U7 team was having trouble with a invisible guy when yamcha had beaten a invisible opponent even before 22 world tournament.
Well Yamcha only beat the Invisible Man after they made him visible. I wouldn't say they had too much trouble with him either except Android 18.
Goku and Gohan have shown to fight people while blinded though so it shouldn't make much difference or maybe Android 18 just isn't as good.
BlueBasilisk wrote:Frieza indicated that he was familiar with Instant Transmission in the RoF arc. When Sorbet was confused by Goku disappearing, Frieza explained it to him using its name and planet of origin. He might have fought IT users or Yardrats before, I guesd.
Oh did he? I can't remember that.
Yamcha was intially winning by using his hearing but baba started to distract him.
Why power levels are important?
Spoiler:
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Bullza wrote:So is Final Form Frieza equal to Base Goku and then Final Form Frost is much weaker.
Or is Final Form Frost more on the level of Super Saiyan Goku and Final Form Frieza is much stronger?
I'm of the belief that True Form Frost's power is akin to Piccolo's, making him weaker than Super Saiyajin Gokū, while True Form Freeza's power is akin to Hit's, making him weaker than Super Saiyajin Red Gokū and Gokū with SSJ Red's power absorbed into his body. As far as I can tell, training with Vegeta in the Room of Spirit and Time enabled Gokū to extend SSJ Blue's power even further as well as reacquire his normal base and SSJ forms. The only thing that throws a wrench into this is the Planet Potaufeu conflict, though I usually disregard it.
"Reign supreme? In your dreams; you'll never make me bow.
Kick my ass? I'm world-class and Super Saiyan now."
I BURN - Jeff Williams feat. Casey Lee Williams, RWBY Volume 1 Soundtrack
Bullza wrote:So is Final Form Frieza equal to Base Goku and then Final Form Frost is much weaker.
Or is Final Form Frost more on the level of Super Saiyan Goku and Final Form Frieza is much stronger?
I think Freeza and Frost are similar to current Base Goku’s level. It doesn’t seem like there is a substancial difference between their powers, except for the golden form, which is one of the factors that make Freeza superior. Also, Base Goku is possibly implied to be even with final form Freeza in the recruitment episodes.
Hugo Boss wrote:I think Freeza and Frost are similar to current Base Goku’s level. It doesn’t seem like there is a substancial difference between their powers, except for the golden form, which is one of the factors that make Freeza superior. Also, Base Goku is possibly implied to be even with final form Freeza in the recruitment episodes.
Well Champa said that Frost did not stand a chance against Frieza and at that point he should not be aware of the Golden form.
There was also Goku's comment that if Frost trained he would get stronger like Frieza did. Which could imply that he is not as strong as Frieza though that could be including the Golden form.
[/spoiler]
