How much of a difference can exist between strength and speed?

[nickzambuto]

Typically, the physical attributes and skills of Dragon Ball warriors all scale linearly. For instance, somebody who is twice as strong as you will also be about twice as fast as you. They are just as fast, as they are strong, and vice versa.

However several comments do exist which indicate it is perfectly possible for somebody to be weaker while faster, or vice versa. Tenshinhan admits that Goku is at least his equal in strength, but still believes he can be many times faster. Goku assumed that Oozaru Vegeta would probably be slower than him, despite being close to 20x stronger. Gohan admits that Boo is much stronger than him, but believes that he can still be faster. Burter, Jeice, and Reccoome all have similar battle powers, but everyone says that Burter is definitely the fastest. There are probably other examples of this, and even though they are all usually proven wrong, the characters still consistently say that it's perfectly reasonable for someone to be stronger but slower, or faster but weaker. My question is, how wide can the gap actually be?

Let's say Goku decides one morning that he no longer cares about speed and he wants to become as strong as possible. The same morning, Vegeta decides that he doesn't care about strength anymore and he wants to become as fast as possible. So they both train like this for 10 years and then they fight. They both trained really hard and under the same conditions, so their battle powers are about the same, but Vegeta specialized in speed and Goku specialized in strength. How much of a difference will this make? Will Vegeta be too fast for Goku to see yet unable to inflict damage on Goku? Or will the differences barely be noticeable and the two just even out?

[KBABZ]

The other main example is the Ascended forms of Super Saiyan seen in the Cell arc; both Goku and Trunks discover that while you have a huge amount of power, you are unable to move as quickly to deliver the blows. I think it's mainly a physicality thing; when Vegeta gets a "zenkai" boost on Namek and takes on... I think it's Cui, he mocks his opponent for not realizing that a boost in power also results in a boost in speed. Which makes sense since scientifically a punch will hit harder with more kinetic energy and all that. Being faster would be about less time "pre-winding" an attack, while being stronger would be the opposite and take more time to really pull back and get a mighty swing in; think light attacks and heavy attacks in video games.

I always figured that Battle Power was based entirely on, well, one's power, and didn't count as an accurate rating for speed despite the connections mentioned above (again recall the Ascended Super Saiyan stuff where Goku's Battle Power was enormous, but his body prevented him from moving as fast, which a Scouter would not account for if it were to rate him). Burter is considered to be as equal as Jeice and Recoome, but would likely have been much tougher to defeat given that he was extra quick as well (probably due to his alien race), which ties into the whole "don't go basing assessments entirely on the Battle Power readings" theme of the Saiyan/Namek arcs.

Let's say Goku decides one morning that he no longer cares about speed and he wants to become as strong as possible. The same morning, Vegeta decides that he doesn't care about strength anymore and he wants to become as fast as possible. So they both train like this for 10 years and then they fight. They both trained really hard and under the same conditions, so their battle powers are about the same, but Vegeta specialized in speed and Goku specialized in strength. How much of a difference will this make? Will Vegeta be too fast for Goku to see yet unable to inflict damage on Goku? Or will the differences barely be noticeable and the two just even out?

I think in this example Vegeta would have the edge, being for the most part on par with Goku most of the time. Vegeta would be able to dodge Goku's attacks and inflict a large amount of damage over time, while Goku would be too slow to retaliate.

Of course all things being relative, that doesn't mean that a weakling will be able to take down Frieza simply because he's faster than him; at a certain point you'd tire yourself out because you're not doing enough damage and slow down to the point that your opponent can take you out.

[Lionel]

Strength and speed are typically uniform in their proportionality. Sure you have a few outliers here and there, but what defines those physical attributes is power level. Sad to say but Goku's statement to Raditz about power not being everything failed to pan out for the most part. It's next to impossible for a character who is considerably weaker to gain the initiative and defeat an opponent who is far stronger. Granted, there's an emphasis on the phrase "next to impossible". A few occasional upsets have been known to happen like Dracula Man's defeat at the hands of Puar and Upa despite being powerful enough to outpace Krillin or Guldo utilising his paralysis arts to quash Gohan and Krillin's strength advantage. It's the same with the topical physical traits having disproportionate measures in certain characters. You could ask how those rare exceptions came to be about. Who can say. Maybe it has something to do with the typology and emphasis of the person's training. Burter could have committed diligent attention and effort to refining the quickness and rapidity of his movements while Recoome instead chose to specialise in building up his muscle tone and endurance so that he's able to weather damage in a fight.

I wish the idea of fighters having variant physical traits was taken advantage of more often. Watching the course of a fight get shifted thanks to someone's punch being stronger or their speed being efficient enough to avoid the brunt of the opponent's force sounds a lot more interesting than the hackneyed system we've come to know and fret over for so long. An example of physicality having an influence was at one point a concept in the series. Think back to the second arc of DB. It was thanks to having longer legs and greater mass that Jackie Chun defeated Goku in the 21st tournament. Without that condition distinguishing his physical body from Goku's it's possible the fight could have ended in a draw. See? That's an example of physical attributes having an effect on a fight's outcome. If these traits were taken into account more often then the mechanics of the fight would have a few more components to itself. When I think of a fighter's strength allowing them to inflict damage on their enemy I think of Piccolo in his fight against #17 -- a greatly taller and heavier fighter at equal power levels sounds like he should have the advantage in terms of power. The trade-off would be an increased difficulty in hitting #17 since he's smaller and more nimble with an untraceable power level.

[KBABZ]

An example of physicality having an influence was at one point a concept in the series. Think back to the second arc of DB. It was thanks to having longer legs and greater mass that Jackie Chun defeated Goku in the 21st tournament. Without that condition distinguishing his physical body from Goku's it's possible the fight could have ended in a draw. See? That's an example of physical attributes having an effect on a fight's outcome.

Having recently finished Buu Kai, one that jumps out to me is when Vegetto is turned into a jawbreaker. Because of how tiny he is he proves to be impossible for Buu to hit and can puncture right through him like a bullet. It doesn't last and it's played for laughs, but "Vejawbreakerotto" proved to be so much of a nuisance that Buu was forced to change him back!

But I agree, back in the day one's physicality had a lot more influence in in the outcome, or at the very least how the fight played out, because the fights were more based in martial arts with techniques, new moves, and fight strategies rather than Power Level and ki energy management. Tien growing an extra set of arms was a game-changer in his fight with Goku, but if he were to pull that same trick in the Z era it wouldn't have made a difference I think.

[Lionel]

An example of physicality having an influence was at one point a concept in the series. Think back to the second arc of DB. It was thanks to having longer legs and greater mass that Jackie Chun defeated Goku in the 21st tournament. Without that condition distinguishing his physical body from Goku's it's possible the fight could have ended in a draw. See? That's an example of physical attributes having an effect on a fight's outcome.

Having recently finished Buu Kai, one that jumps out to me is when Vegetto is turned into a jawbreaker. Because of how tiny he is he proves to be impossible for Buu to hit and can puncture right through him like a bullet. It doesn't last and it's played for laughs, but "Vejawbreakerotto" proved to be so much of a nuisance that Buu was forced to change him back!

But I agree, back in the day one's physicality had a lot more influence in in the outcome, or at the very least how the fight played out, because the fights were more based in martial arts with techniques, new moves, and fight strategies rather than Power Level and ki energy management. Tien growing an extra set of arms was a game-changer in his fight with Goku, but if he were to pull that same trick in the Z era it wouldn't have made a difference I think.

Shiyoken is arguably one of the most useful physical techniques in the series. Tenshinhan had no reason not to use it in later fights. It offers him two extra appendages to attack and defend with. Do the limbs require too much coordination to manage efficiently? Are they a drain on his stamina? We're given no reason for why he neglected to use this technique (outside of a brief mutual standoff with possessed Roshi early on in the recent arc). I don't think coordination was ever an issue for him. His third eye was clearly proven to be capable of alternating its gaze away from what the lower ocular set was observing. It's what gave him the ability to literally monitor two different areas at once. In any hand-to-hand engagement he would logically have the advantage since most opponents only have two regular arms and hands to use. You might suggest that they could do what Goku did and increasing the rapidity of his hand movements enough so that he's able to compensate for each appendage Tenshinhan uses to strike with. I would counter by asking why Tenshinhan couldn't replicate the Hasshuken by combining it with his Shiyoken to make sixteen "arms". We already witnessed him showing impressive aptitude for grasping new techniques quickly when he mastered the Kamehameha after observing it once. At the time it would have proved inconvenient for Toriyama's narrative because Goku wouldn't be able to successfully counter the Shiyoken technique, but it would have been consistent with Tenshinhan's character.

Some other moments where physicality should have conceivably made a difference were Piccolo vs Goku (greater stature and weight for Jr), Yamcha vs Saibaman, and Goku vs Daimao. You could say that while they may not have been decisive advantages, the heavier fighters would have dealt just a bit more damage than what they were suffering from their opponents at near to equal power levels. Piccolo Jr's enlargement and appendage expansion (one used against Krillin as he was hitting him) technique would have some credible applications then. Yes, he would make a far larger target, but each time he hits would incur a serious amount of damage versus whatever moderate amount he would normally inflict.

[KBABZ]

Piccolo Jr's enlargement and appendage expansion (one used against Krillin as he was hitting him) technique would have some credible applications then. Yes, he would make a far larger target, but each time he hits would incur a serious amount of damage versus whatever moderate amount he would normally inflict.

You saying this made me think of FighterZ, and I realized that FighterZ is going to greater lengths to make each character fight differently than the manga does.

Back on the manga/anime, I think Cell's regeneration certainly altered the outcome of several fights (mainly Vegeta's Final Flash). And while Buu was mostly a retread, the fact that he was effectively made out of goo and never ran out of energy or stamina made him a much more formidable opponent than most. Even Cell got tired!

[Lionel]

Piccolo Jr's enlargement and appendage expansion (one used against Krillin as he was hitting him) technique would have some credible applications then. Yes, he would make a far larger target, but each time he hits would incur a serious amount of damage versus whatever moderate amount he would normally inflict.

You saying this made me think of FighterZ, and I realized that FighterZ is going to greater lengths to make each character fight differently than the manga does.

Back on the manga/anime, I think Cell's regeneration certainly altered the outcome of several fights (mainly Vegeta's Final Flash). And while Buu was mostly a retread, the fact that he was effectively made out of goo and never ran out of energy or stamina made him a much more formidable opponent than most. Even Cell got tired!

It probably helped that Buu's body seemed to have an amorphous rubbery shock-absorpbent quality to itself. Cell, in spite of his regenerative traits, still had the semi-hard physiology of a normal humanoid. When you dealt damage to him, he could feel it. Buu just endured with no permanent injury inflicted. You exhaust yourself with a constant barrage of strikes followed with a powerful projectile only to find that Buu has magically restored his mass to its original state like nothing happened. At least with Cell you knew your attacks were to have an impact since his regeneration requires a good sum of energy to complete. Buu seemed to have limitless stamina on top of a physiology that's capable of shrugging off physical attacks even without regeneration. The only times punches and kicks seemed to be effective to a degree is when Buu was pitted against a significantly superior opponent -- even then, his stamina would likely have begun to even things out if his opponent didn't take advantage of the power disparity quick enough by destroying him. You need a sizable attack that's capable of obliterating all of Buu down to the last molecule for it to stick.

[KBABZ]

It probably helped that Buu's body seemed to have an amorphous rubbery shock-absorpbent quality to itself. Cell, in spite of his regenerative traits, still had the semi-hard physiology of a normal humanoid. When you dealt damage to him, he could feel it. Buu just endured with no permanent injury inflicted. You exhaust yourself with a constant barrage of strikes followed with a powerful projectile only to find that Buu has magically restored his mass to its original state like nothing happened. At least with Cell you knew your attacks were to have an impact since his regeneration requires a good sum of energy to complete. Buu seemed to have limitless stamina on top of a physiology that's capable of shrugging off physical attacks even without regeneration. The only times punches and kicks seemed to be effective to a degree is when Buu was pitted against a significantly superior opponent -- even then, his stamina would likely have begun to even things out if his opponent didn't take advantage of the power disparity quick enough by destroying him. You need a sizable attack that's capable of obliterating all of Buu down to the last molecule for it to stick.

Exactly, which is why Buu was such a menage. Even Vegetto, assuming he wasn't using any attacks that would kill Buu completely, would eventually run low on energy (luckily, Buu's patience ran out first!). Buu's malleable physiology is likely to compliment the fact that he looks like bubble gum, which goes with the candy thing.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I'd say that the Tournament of Power has been attempting to lessen the overall spikes between power levels by putting the emphasis on good martial arts ability and movement over pure strength, at least in most cases.

For example, the idea that a clean hit could actually do something to someone hundreds of times stronger than you, or even just being able to read their movements enough to effectively counter them? Unheard of!

And yet, here we are with these exact kinds of ideas being implemented. I know that some folks aren't happy with how this shift has been executed, but they can't deny that this is something we could definitely use more of, if only to add variety and unpredictability to fights in this series.

[TheUltimateNinja]

It probably helped that Buu's body seemed to have an amorphous rubbery shock-absorpbent quality to itself. Cell, in spite of his regenerative traits, still had the semi-hard physiology of a normal humanoid. When you dealt damage to him, he could feel it. Buu just endured with no permanent injury inflicted. You exhaust yourself with a constant barrage of strikes followed with a powerful projectile only to find that Buu has magically restored his mass to its original state like nothing happened. At least with Cell you knew your attacks were to have an impact since his regeneration requires a good sum of energy to complete. Buu seemed to have limitless stamina on top of a physiology that's capable of shrugging off physical attacks even without regeneration. The only times punches and kicks seemed to be effective to a degree is when Buu was pitted against a significantly superior opponent -- even then, his stamina would likely have begun to even things out if his opponent didn't take advantage of the power disparity quick enough by destroying him. You need a sizable attack that's capable of obliterating all of Buu down to the last molecule for it to stick.

Exactly, which is why Buu was such a menage. Even Vegetto, assuming he wasn't using any attacks that would kill Buu completely, would eventually run low on energy (luckily, Buu's patience ran out first!). Buu's malleable physiology is likely to compliment the fact that he looks like bubble gum, which goes with the candy thing.

Vegetto did in fact have the ability to destroy Buu. He demonstrated it too.