Dragon Ball could be so much more...

[GohanRogers]

And I blame Toriyama for not making the franchise live up to its fullest.

Think about it, the Dragon Ball universe is so rich. We have GoDs, angels, the Omni-King, 12 universes, the kaioshins and the other gods. We have a remarkable and awesome fighting style (the high speed combat mixed with energy blasts and martial arts), a great supporting cast, great lores and backstories. We have planets all around Universe 7 that are left to be explored like the Yadrats' planet, Planet Sadala in universe 6. There's a lot of potential for the Dragon Ball franchise to be something epic but the show and its producers just don't take it seriously. Instead, we get simple story arcs, bad character development, bad power scaling, plenty of plot holes and inconsistencies.

It's such a bad treatment for a good quality material that makes me wanna Toriyama and Toei to step away from the franchise. We could have something epic, we could be traveling around galaxies, around universes, we could be exploring and developing all the main characters and part of the supporting cast, knowing the demons of each one and how it affects their lives and how they overcome it (instead of 'goku likes to fight, Vegeta is prideful, Gohan is a nerd and Trunks and Goten likes to fool around'). I know that Dragon Ball itself was created as a gag manga and Toriyama didn't expect it to be what it is today, but it happened, Dragon Ball is a phenomenon all around the world but its creator still treats it like crap and doesn't give the importance that the franchise deserves (Toriyama forgeting such important things like SSJ2 and SSJ3, creating asspull theories to justify asspull transformations, ignoring the established lore of the show and other moments like that which really saddens me as a fan). I think Dragon Ball works so much better when the history takes itself serious but it's not over the top; The gag humor and the lightness and the simplicity of the plot really makes me question how would Dragon Ball be if its creator treated it seriously and actually cared about the show and about doing something more epic, more memorable and more dramatic, with real tension and drama and character development.

What do you guys think? Are you guys ok with Dragon Ball just being a kid's show? Don't you guys think it could be so much more? I know that we adults are not the targeted demographic of Super, but the franchise as a whole still appeals to the older fans. I'm not saying we should get Game of Thrones levels of world building and storytelling, but something more epic, well planned and better developed would be great to see, especially because the franchise has potential, it just never tried it out. Don't you guys think it's time to leave the confort zone and elevate the franchise to new heights of storytelling, world buidling, character development and epicness?

[SupremeKai25]

we get simple story arcs

Was the last arc truly simple? With all the time travel shenanigans, Zamasu's complex fall from grace, the constant uphill battle, and the mystery surrounding the figure of Black. Was it truly a 'simple' story arc? I don't think so. Sure, it lasted only 21 episodes, but they had a lot of story progression and character development. Much more than the Tournament of Power. We can talk about the inconsistencies and cases of bad writing, but it definitely didn't have a simple and basic storyline.

But i do think that Super will focus much more on exploration once the Tournament of Power is over. For example, an arc revolving around Planet Sadala of Universe 6 has been mentioned and wanted since the Tournament of Destroyers, and it is foreshadowed that the erased Universes will be brought back if Universe 7 wins.

[precita]

For the most part, Dragonball isn't really there to be mined like Star Wars is lore wise. It's simple concepts and that's it. Dragonball was never meant to explore these things because there's no time and it's not that important. Dragonball isn't made for adults.

[Xeogran]

Dragon Ball isn't supposed to be some deep, complex story. It is a kids franchise at heart and that's why we love it so much.

Even the actuam complex stuff like Time Travel in the past arc got "officially" explained with a single graph by Toei.

[supersaiyanZero]

we get simple story arcs

Was the last arc truly simple? With all the time travel shenanigans, Zamasu's complex fall from grace, the constant uphill battle, and the mystery surrounding the figure of Black. Was it truly a 'simple' story arc? I don't think so. Sure, it lasted only 21 episodes, but they had a lot of story progression and character development. Much more than the Tournament of Power. We can talk about the inconsistencies and cases of bad writing, but it definitely didn't have a simple and basic storyline.

But i do think that Super will focus much more on exploration once the Tournament of Power is over. For example, an arc revolving around Planet Sadala of Universe 6 has been mentioned and wanted since the Tournament of Destroyers, and it is foreshadowed that the erased Universes will be brought back if Universe 7 wins.

Zamasu's fall from grace was far from complex. I really hate seeing people treat it as so..it was so generic and infuriating to watch because he could have been the best villain in the franchise by far. Instead we get laughable moments where his convictions are forced on us through shoddy exposition. His "hatred" towards humanity was so generic it made me gag.

[Grimlock]

Yeah, unfortunately Dragon Ball has this major downside going on for it. It has the potential but it does not use it, it lacks courage. It's all very superficial, it never explore things properly, it does not have to be much/extremely deep, but the level of superficiality in the main series always upset. My biggest problem these days is that the series hardly leaves the comfort zone, it seems they like Dragon Ball to be stuck on its own thing, they are afraid of adding something more substantial.

If it wasn't for Toyotaro, we would probably never see Super Saiyan God Vegeta (although he was also the one who brought Vegetto back, he should have chosen Gogeta), so sometimes I also think it would be better for Toriyama to step away or at least work closely together with Toyotaro, the people from that "Dragon Ball Room" and Dimps to come up with something amazing yet different, just to prevent Dragon Ball Super and/or whatever might come in the future from becoming saturated/boring so quickly.

[Zephyr]

The thing with Dragon Ball's background lore is that it wasn't planned out in advance, it was built as the series went on, made up as Toriyama continued to advance the story and expand its scope. The only reason we have all of this interesting background lore, layered the way it is, occupied by characters as interesting as they are, is because of the way Toriyama tells stories and develops his world: moving ever-forward without much foresight. Part and parcel with that is that there are also going to be some holes here and there. We can't really have Toriyama's recklessly interesting worldbuilding without the occasional hiccup. We can't have our cake and eat it too. Take Toriyama out of the equation and replace him with someone who "does their homework", so to speak, and we might indeed have a more consistent world; we'll also probably have a more boring world grow from then on, and a more boring story to go with it.

Looking at the original run in context, it's fucking fantastic. It went on for about a decade with no breaks. It parodies and references and pays homage to a cornucopia of different stories, genres, and tropes, and distills them into a charming uniform style that develops naturally over time. It has dozens of compelling and complete character arcs. And it was all done by one guy, making shit up as he went along. That it turned out as good as it did was a miracle. If it had been more planned out, or written by someone else, a majority of the iconography and plot twists that make the series what it is wouldn't even exist in the first place.

Even now, with Super, arcs aren't written with as much of a "throw caution to the wind" attitude. From what we know, it seems that Toriyama writes up a complete draft of bullet points, from beginning to end, which are then fleshed out into an actual story. The story isn't grown organically; it's mapped out now. One thing I do agree with from the OP is that the arcs do feel a lot more simple. Toriyama's not tricking himself into corners and forcing himself to come up with solutions out of left field anymore. That's not to say that the broad story beats of Super aren't interesting in and of themselves, but they feel a lot less interesting, on the whole, than what we already had 20+ years ago.

I think that, logically speaking, Super in particular could be so much more. Toriyama's giving other storytellers his own bullet-point ideas, when in reality, the manga turned out as well as it did because the reverse was happening: Toriyama was the storyteller, appropriating ideas, tropes, and stories from all kinds of external material. If Toriyama was drawing the Super manga (without planning arcs out from beginning to end before drawing the first chapter), and the Super anime was based off of that manga, it would be a much more authentic Dragon Ball sequel, and I can almost guarantee it would be better executed in just about every relevant department (character development, fight choreography, character design, etc).

But, realistically speaking, that would be a terrible idea, for Toriyama himself. He already ran himself ragged during the original run, and now he's a lot older. He deserves his rest. As a result, I don't think Dragon Ball is ever going to be as consistently good as it was during its original serialization. And I'm okay with that, we've got a lot of great stuff to show for it.

Now, if all you're really hungry for is background lore that's thoroughly consistent with guidebook information and wiki article minutiae, fight choreography that is rigidly consistent with a specific system of interpretation for mapping everyone's strength relative to one another, story arcs that give every character their "fair share" of the spotlight, and so on, then I'm sure we'll get that, eventually, maybe. I don't think there's inherently any storytelling value that comes from all of that, though. Characters can believably develop in complex and interesting ways without all of that, and they did during the original run. I don't think that full in-universe consistency does too much to enhance a good story (so I don't think that the original run needed it as much as it is pined for in hindsight), and it certainly does nothing to make up for the lack of one (so it's also not some magic wand that would make Super any better in any substantive way).

[GohanRogers]

Dragon Ball isn't supposed to be some deep, complex story. It is a kids franchise at heart and that's why we love it so much.

Even the actuam complex stuff like Time Travel in the past arc got "officially" explained with a single graph by Toei.

But that's the point I'm trying to make: are you guys ok with Dragon Ball just being a kid's show? Don't you guys think it could be so much more? I know that we adults are not the targeted demographic of Super, but the franchise as a whole still appeals to the older fans. I'm not saying we should get Game of Thrones levels of world building and storytelling, but something more epic, well planned and better developed would be great to see, especially because the franchise has potential, it just never tried it out.

[Torturephile]

While I agree that it could be much more, if it does become more deep and complex, it will cease to be the Dragon Ball that I grew up with since it never was meant to be so in the first place. I always watched Dragon Ball due to its fun and cool factor, not for detailed plot or character depth. It works fine for me most of the time. If I wanted to watch something better developed, I would watch something else.

[SirTorra]

Dragonball being simple was fine with the OG series and Z. But Super should have been more complex and epic. Super has done a fantastic job of introducing new concepts and ideas but then fails to expand on them. Should it be overly complex with layers and layers of story? No. But it also shouldn't be so simple that it's borderline predictable. I'll even go as far as to say that the majority of people watching super are 18+. Aswell as the people buying the merchandise are 18+. At the very least Supers audience should be treated to a more developed and well thought out story. It would of have the potential to be top 3 anime/manga of all time. But i guess simple, boring and predictable story sells more right?

[SupremeKai25]

Zamasu's fall from grace was far from complex. I really hate seeing people treat it as so..it was so generic and infuriating to watch because he could have been the best villain in the franchise by far. Instead we get laughable moments where his convictions are forced on us through shoddy exposition. His "hatred" towards humanity was so generic it made me gag.

He was a much more complex villain than 'I am emperor of evil, i will enslave you all!' Freeza, 'I want to be perfect and kill you all!' Cell and 'I want to turn you all into candies and eat you all!' Buu.

But it's not the only example. And this is why i praise the Future Trunks arc. What kind of kids' show would end with a twisted villain taking over the Multiverse and killing everyone? Indeed, what kind of kids' show ends with the good guys losing? Let me tell you the answer: no one. So i am actually surprised that they did something new and radical both in the anime and in the manga, because everyone though, due to the usual simplicity of the story, that Trunks would kill Zamasu, bring everyone back somehow, and live happily ever after. But that didn't happen, because even though Super is a kids' show, they tried to do something vastly different and more unique. And in fact, unlike every other arc, the Future Trunks arc was not predictable, because very few expected such a sombre and tragic ending, or that Black was actually the Zamasu from an unseen timeline who teamed up with a future version of Zamasu.

[Hawk9211]

Dragon ball is not as shallow as people make it.
viewtopic.php?t=31707

[sangofe]

And I blame Toriyama for not making the franchise live up to its fullest.

Think about it, the Dragon Ball universe is so rich. We have GoDs, angels, the Omni-King, 12 universes, the kaioshins and the other gods. We have a remarkable and awesome fighting style (the high speed combat mixed with energy blasts and martial arts), a great supporting cast, great lores and backstories. We have planets all around Universe 7 that are left to be explored like the Yadrats' planet, Planet Sadala in universe 6. There's a lot of potential for the Dragon Ball franchise to be something epic but the show and its producers just don't take it seriously. Instead, we get simple story arcs, bad character development, bad power scaling, plenty of plot holes and inconsistencies.

It's such a bad treatment for a good quality material that makes me wanna Toriyama and Toei to step away from the franchise. We could have something epic, we could be traveling around galaxies, around universes, we could be exploring and developing all the main characters and part of the supporting cast, knowing the demons of each one and how it affects their lives and how they overcome it (instead of 'goku likes to fight, Vegeta is prideful, Gohan is a nerd and Trunks and Goten likes to fool around'). I know that Dragon Ball itself was created as a gag manga and Toriyama didn't expect it to be what it is today, but it happened, Dragon Ball is a phenomenon all around the world but its creator still treats it like crap and doesn't give the importance that the franchise deserves (Toriyama forgeting such important things like SSJ2 and SSJ3, creating asspull theories to justify asspull transformations, ignoring the established lore of the show and other moments like that which really saddens me as a fan). I think Dragon Ball works so much better when the history takes itself serious but it's not over the top; The gag humor and the lightness and the simplicity of the plot really makes me question how would Dragon Ball be if its creator treated it seriously and actually cared about the show and about doing something more epic, more memorable and more dramatic, with real tension and drama and character development.

What do you guys think? Are you guys ok with Dragon Ball just being a kid's show? Don't you guys think it could be so much more? I know that we adults are not the targeted demographic of Super, but the franchise as a whole still appeals to the older fans. I'm not saying we should get Game of Thrones levels of world building and storytelling, but something more epic, well planned and better developed would be great to see, especially because the franchise has potential, it just never tried it out. Don't you guys think it's time to leave the confort zone and elevate the franchise to new heights of storytelling, world buidling, character development and epicness?

You could make your own fanfiction.

[sintzu]

Toriyama isn't done yet nor is DB so why don't you just wait and see where it goes.

[Xeogran]

He was a much more complex villain than 'I am emperor of evil, i will enslave you all!' Freeza, 'I want to be perfect and kill you all!' Cell and 'I want to turn you all into candies and eat you all!' Buu.

Cell was pretty one dimensional I'll give you that. Heck, Cell wasn't even supposed to exist at first and thus his story was rushed and he lacked any motives. Buu was a chaotical being of mass destruction and thus he didn't need story be cool.

Freeza however, can't be summarized like that. When you take a look at his past, there's lots of mystery surrounding him and he is fairly complex. Like, we don't know if Freeza was born with evil thoughts, or it was King Cold who shaped him that way.

Frost showed us that you can be from Freeza's race and still know what being "good" is, even if it was just a decoy.

[Lord Beerus]

Dragon Ball could be so much more, but it doesn't have to be as it is already very good as it is. Dragon Ball doesn't, and really shouldn't, have to feel obliged to become a complex, deeper or complicated story with rich, vast and expanded lore, if the simplicity of how the story progressed already brings great results.

[sintzu]

Dragon Ball could be so much more, but it doesn't have to be as it is already very good as it is. Dragon Ball doesn't, and really shouldn't, have to feel obliged to become a complex, deeper or complicated story with rich, vast and expanded lore, if the simplicity of how the story progressed already brings great results.

Some forget that just because some writers can do complex deep stories doesn't mean everyone else can. For all we know DB would be worse that way as it's not Toriyama's style.

As much as I'd love to see a world as large as One Piece's or characters as diverse as Naruto's, I'd rather Toriyama do what works for him as that'll give us the best results.

[Ilikepictures-meh]

He was a much more complex villain than 'I am emperor of evil, i will enslave you all!' Freeza, 'I want to be perfect and kill you all!' Cell and 'I want to turn you all into candies and eat you all!' Buu.

Cell was pretty one dimensional I'll give you that. Heck, Cell wasn't even supposed to exist at first and thus his story was rushed and he lacked any motives. Buu was a chaotical being of mass destruction and thus he didn't need story be cool.

Freeza however, can't be summarized like that. When you take a look at his past, there's lots of mystery surrounding him and he is fairly complex. Like, we don't know if Freeza was born with evil thoughts, or it was King Cold who shaped him that way.

Frost showed us that you can be from Freeza's race and still know what being "good" is, even if it was just a decoy.

Frieza can be summarized like that because you're argument is nothing but useless head canon. Nothing has implied that Frieza wasn't born with evil thoughts. Till proven otherwise that counter argument is worthless. Also the idea that Frieza race wouldn't be able to tell what's the difference between right and wrong is absurd, and also never been stated. Plus I'm pretty sure its been implied that Frieza race isn't all evil (At least in official non canon material like Xenoverse) and Cold and Frieza just ruined the races reputation with their actions. Frieza's character is basically "I was born super strong, I'm going to declare myself emperor and commit genocide to various planets because I can", he's as one dimensional as it gets.

[RedHeat]

Dragon Ball at this period in time is absolutely fine with me, and the current popularity of it is a testament to that.

[ernesth100]

Dragon Ball at this period in time is absolutely fine with me, and the current popularity of it is a testament to that.

Exactly, if it aint broke dont fix it. I'll admit there are far deeper storylines they can explore yes. But they have literally the rest of the year after the arc ends in March(if the speculation is confirmed) to do the deeper arcs and really delve into the meat of the situations that arose during the tournament arcs.

I'm almost positive either way the tournament ends it ends with the universes being brought back regardless. Especially U7 if they loose because thats the focus of the series. Rn, they're just giving us some nice fights and suspense and setting up a lot for future arcs. DBS always does this lowkey and it's all the more interesting for that reason.