Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[BlueBasilisk]

I still don't understand the depths of power in anime Goku's base form. It's wildly inconsistent, so I have no choice but to believe that he's holding back on people that aren't at least high Buu saga Vegetto tier, as that Goku appeared even with a base Frieza (white form) that was likely hundreds of times stronger than his most suppressed transformation (small horn form) which toyed with a Gohan who was stronger than his Buu saga self as he defeated Tagoma who in his words was "probably as strong as me when I was at my best".

Yeah, Buu's a monster. I personally think that is the way AT thinks of him too and its why he's not using him in all these tournament arcs, well, that and his powerful abilities. If Buu ever stopped being treated as a gag, he'd be a hero worse than Superman, in that he'd have a lot of power and and abilities with no weaknesses.

Tagoma was all talk and no substance. SS Gohan and SS Gotenks both dropped him in a single blow. He was somewhere between Piccolo and Gohan but probably a fair bit weaker than Gotenks. Pretty good for Frieza Fodder. It did seem like Imp Frieza was well beyond Buu though. They didn't want the kids fighting him even though they could go Super Saiyan 3 and were too scared to even rush him as a group. Goku fought him in his base form as a challenge but based on things said and done in RoF and the tournament, Frieza's final form appears to be somewhere above Super Saiyan but below SS2 if you use Goku as the benchmark.

I find Buu really hard to gauge because it's not very clear how strong he is after he splits off from Kid Buu, and Super Fit Buu's fight with him is so short and won through cleverness rather than power. He's at least strong enough to dunk on Roid Rage Basil.

[Kenneth La Torre]

It's only been 39 minutes...Jiren and Goku only had one fight. Blue and UI count as round 1...As Goku just stated this episode that this is round 2!

So you think Jiren used SAME amount of power during the whole fight against Goku?

Even though he has fought against Goku SSB, SSB KK x20 and UI Goku?

Most likely jiren did stay the same while fighting both UI goku and SSB Goku. We never saw him power up at all since the fight began. Thats my opinion on why jiren was effortlessly toying with a ssb kaioken x20, and was even with an unstable, weak version of UI.

Thats just my hypothesis. I do think is more likely that he powered up against UI goku.

[Miracles]

It's only been 39 minutes...Jiren and Goku only had one fight. Blue and UI count as round 1...As Goku just stated this episode that this is round 2!

So you think Jiren used SAME amount of power during the whole fight against Goku?

Even though he has fought against Goku SSB, SSB KK x20 and UI Goku?

It was stated UI Goku could only close the gap in power in order for UI to have some effect. This was against the same Jiren Goku Blue and Kaioken blue Goku was getting dominated by.

[Bullza]

It did seem like Imp Frieza was well beyond Buu though.

He should be easily. There was that scene where Frieza says to Base Goku that he knew he'd beaten Buu but to think he'd gotten that strong....

So Base Goku was much stronger than expected and was already expected to be above Buu. That was consistent then with him being stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and giving Beerus a fight and everything.

Then it's been confused ever since.

[BWri]

I still don't understand the depths of power in anime Goku's base form. It's wildly inconsistent, so I have no choice but to believe that he's holding back on people that aren't at least high Buu saga Vegetto tier, as that Goku appeared even with a base Frieza (white form) that was likely hundreds of times stronger than his most suppressed transformation (small horn form) which toyed with a Gohan who was stronger than his Buu saga self as he defeated Tagoma who in his words was "probably as strong as me when I was at my best".

Yeah, Buu's a monster. I personally think that is the way AT thinks of him too and its why he's not using him in all these tournament arcs, well, that and his powerful abilities. If Buu ever stopped being treated as a gag, he'd be a hero worse than Superman, in that he'd have a lot of power and and abilities with no weaknesses.

Tagoma was all talk and no substance. SS Gohan and SS Gotenks both dropped him in a single blow. He was somewhere between Piccolo and Gohan but probably a fair bit weaker than Gotenks. Pretty good for Frieza Fodder. It did seem like Imp Frieza was well beyond Buu though. They didn't want the kids fighting him even though they could go Super Saiyan 3 and were too scared to even rush him as a group. Goku fought him in his base form as a challenge but based on things said and done in RoF and the tournament, Frieza's final form appears to be somewhere above Super Saiyan but below SS2 if you use Goku as the benchmark.

I find Buu really hard to gauge because it's not very clear how strong he is after he splits off from Kid Buu, and Super Fit Buu's fight with him is so short and won through cleverness rather than power. He's at least strong enough to dunk on Roid Rage Basil.

Tagoma's no joke. Gohan gauged his power in their fight and literally said Tagoma was "probably as strong as me when I was at my best". Gohan was likely referring to his Buu saga self. Tagoma's feats basically line up with this, then he got even stronger when Ginyu took over his body. The scene with Gotenks was mostly gag, but come on! It was a nutshot from a Super Saiyan, that could take just about anyone out save the characters who don't have 'em .

As far as Frieza being at SSJ or SSj2, I don't think that's the case. Frieza (white form) has to be far above everything but the god forms for the later scaling to work. Otherwise his Final Form is too close to Frost's. Slightly tired manga Frost was close enough to Piccolo in power that they had a good fight and even though he was a good deal stronger, he had to resort to cheating to win. Anime Frost was much more tired and the gap between him and Piccolo was presented to be much wider, but Piccolo still held his own and was able to block Frost's attacks, evade him, and trap him. Piccolo doing that well against any form of Frost even a tired one, automatically makes Frieza astronomically stronger unless Piccolo got a monumental boost between those two fights.

But that's why the RoF and U6 tournament power scales are incompatible. The RoF arc uses the movie's premise of Goku's base being god tier, while U6 introduces the old SSJ forms and throws out that god form base. Otherwise, every fighter in that tournament is god tier which we know isn't the case. Or you can choose to believe that they can turn their god powers on or off in case. But I just see an inconsistency since Goku and Vegeta's bases should've been high enough to stomp the competition until Hit.

I agree that Fit Buu is hard to gauge. Good Buu should be his same Buu saga power until he started training and got fit. So, Good Buu was likely in the SSJ2 realm, since he lost a good portion of the power that went to Evil/Kid Buu. He and Gohan were likely on the same level during the Zen Exhibition, but Buu's abilities give him the advantage.

[Green]

Tagoma is indeed a pushover, considering it was implied FT Arc Gohan was weaker than his CG self by Trunks and ROF Gohan was even weaker.

CG SS Gohan > FT SS Gohan >> ROF SS Gohan >>> Ginyu-Tagoma

[TheSaiyanGod]

It's only been 39 minutes...Jiren and Goku only had one fight. Blue and UI count as round 1...As Goku just stated this episode that this is round 2!

So you think Jiren used SAME amount of power during the whole fight against Goku?

Even though he has fought against Goku SSB, SSB KK x20 and UI Goku?

It was stated UI Goku could only close the gap in power in order for UI to have some effect. This was against the same Jiren Goku Blue and Kaioken blue Goku was getting dominated by.

At the beginning of the fight, Goku SSB was able to press Jiren and throw him between several rocks with a single punch (even being at a disadvantage). He even hit a hit with the Blue Kaioken.

It does not make sense for Jiren not to increase his power when Goku became x20 more powerful with the Kaioken, and when he got the UI (which is MUCH stronger than the Blue).

[Kenneth La Torre]

So you think Jiren used SAME amount of power during the whole fight against Goku?

Even though he has fought against Goku SSB, SSB KK x20 and UI Goku?

It was stated UI Goku could only close the gap in power in order for UI to have some effect. This was against the same Jiren Goku Blue and Kaioken blue Goku was getting dominated by.

At the beginning of the fight, Goku SSB was able to press Jiren and throw him between several rocks with a single punch (even being at a disadvantage). He even hit a hit with the Blue Kaioken.

It does not make sense for Jiren not to increase his power when Goku became x20 more powerful with the Kaioken, and when he got the UI (which is MUCH stronger than the Blue).

Seems like jiren stayed the same the entire episode. He powered up greatly at the beginning, so much so that it shook even beerus. And then he just stayed the same. He did not seem like he needed to power up, he blinked ssb kaioken ×20 down. Heck, he was so powerful that whis even aknowledge that jiren was using power on the level of gods of destruction.

The only time we saw him power up was when he knew that he needed more power to block UI gokus attack, which was at the very end.

Who knows tho. We are just speculating at the moment. For all we know this might get brought up in the next few episodes.

[dragon boss z]

[quote="Bullza]

Ummm Buu isn't any stronger than he was during the Majin Buu arc. At best you could argue that skinny good Buu is the strongest Buu (which I doubt), but current Fat Buu isn't any stronger than he used to be, or at least there is no proof he is.

Umm..... How can you say that when Boo was able to swap hands with Base form Gokou? The same Base form Gokou who can literally solo the entire Boo Saga, is probably universal at full power, then probably is a strong as Super Saiyan Blue from the Fukkatsu no F story arc. And Good Boo matched this same Base form Gokou. You can't say he's not the strongest Boo if he can match Base form Gokou.[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]

And Krillin forced Goku to go ssj, whats your point? Every episode has different writers and they just seem to make Goku a random strength every episode. And like I said you could argue skinny good Buu is the strongest, but you seemed to imply current fat buu was also.

[Rally 07]

And Krillin forced Goku to go ssj, whats your point? Every episode has different writers and they just seem to make Goku a random strength every episode. And like I said you could argue skinny good Buu is the strongest, but you seemed to imply current fat buu was also.

Like I said earlier, Gokou tends to mess around by transforming whenever there's no need at all. This is proven with Kururin, the Trio de Danger, some of the more weaker fighters in the Tournament of Power. Against Kururin, there was absolutely no need to transform at all, I dunno why the writers even did that.

And I didn't imply Fat Boo wasn't the strongest Majin Boo either. I argued current Good Boo is the strongest Majin Boo that would one shot even Boohan. Fat Boo is one of the weaker Majin Boos to be more specific.

[PushoverMediaCritic]

New spoilers say that Dyspo's going to be toying around with both Freeza and Gohan at the same time. Seems to be less "Freeza is at a slight disadvantage and Gohan decides to help him finish Dyspo off", and more "Freeza is actually getting his ass handed to him, and Gohan decides to help because Freeza will lose if he doesn't".

[Miracles]

So you think Jiren used SAME amount of power during the whole fight against Goku?

Even though he has fought against Goku SSB, SSB KK x20 and UI Goku?

It was stated UI Goku could only close the gap in power in order for UI to have some effect. This was against the same Jiren Goku Blue and Kaioken blue Goku was getting dominated by.

At the beginning of the fight, Goku SSB was able to press Jiren and throw him between several rocks with a single punch (even being at a disadvantage). He even hit a hit with the Blue Kaioken.

It does not make sense for Jiren not to increase his power when Goku became x20 more powerful with the Kaioken, and when he got the UI (which is MUCH stronger than the Blue).

Except blue Goku pushing Jiren through rocks or kk Goku even kicking his face absolutely had no effect whatsoever. Jiren dominated that Goku and UI Goku wasn't even as strong as that Jiren cause the power gap was only "closed" not stronger than Jiren.

[dragon boss z]

And Krillin forced Goku to go ssj, whats your point? Every episode has different writers and they just seem to make Goku a random strength every episode. And like I said you could argue skinny good Buu is the strongest, but you seemed to imply current fat buu was also.

Like I said earlier, Gokou tends to mess around by transforming whenever there's no need at all. This is proven with Kururin, the Trio de Danger, some of the more weaker fighters in the Tournament of Power. Against Kururin, there was absolutely no need to transform at all, I dunno why the writers even did that.

And I didn't imply Fat Boo wasn't the strongest Majin Boo either. I argued current Good Boo is the strongest Majin Boo that would one shot even Boohan. Fat Boo is one of the weaker Majin Boos to be more specific.

Current Buu is Fat Buu...
And with your logic Goku could of been holding back on Buu as well.

[Helios518]

It's only been 39 minutes...Jiren and Goku only had one fight. Blue and UI count as round 1...As Goku just stated this episode that this is round 2!

So you think Jiren used SAME amount of power during the whole fight against Goku?

Even though he has fought against Goku SSB, SSB KK x20 and UI Goku?

Ofc, he stayed the same. Geran was only seen to power up once in that fight and it was at the start, but that power up was so big that Beerus couldn't believe a fighter could be this strong (Beerus also felt Cloud Zamasu's ki) and Geran's energy shook the WoV (Something Goku wasn't able to do until going UI the first time).

[Rally 07]

And Krillin forced Goku to go ssj, whats your point? Every episode has different writers and they just seem to make Goku a random strength every episode. And like I said you could argue skinny good Buu is the strongest, but you seemed to imply current fat buu was also.

Like I said earlier, Gokou tends to mess around by transforming whenever there's no need at all. This is proven with Kururin, the Trio de Danger, some of the more weaker fighters in the Tournament of Power. Against Kururin, there was absolutely no need to transform at all, I dunno why the writers even did that.

And I didn't imply Fat Boo wasn't the strongest Majin Boo either. I argued current Good Boo is the strongest Majin Boo that would one shot even Boohan. Fat Boo is one of the weaker Majin Boos to be more specific.

Current Buu is Fat Buu...
And with your logic Goku could of been holding back on Buu as well.

You do realize Good Boo and Fat Boo are not the same dude. Just because they're both fat doesn't mean they're the same. Fat Boo is the Majin Boo who slaughtered galaxies over time, defeated and absorbed the original four Kaioshins, was under the control of Bibbidi and Bobbidi and was put in a dormant state until his release earlier in the Boo Saga immediately after the Tenkaichi Budokai. Fat Boo was revived, he defeated Gohan, Shin, and Majin Vegeta, then fought seeming on par with Super Saiyan 3 Gokou and destroyed Base form Gotenks.
Good Boo is the Boo that is the result of Fat Boo removing the evil within to create a completely evil manifestation of Majin Boo called Evil Boo. With most of the power going to Evil Boo, then got defeated and absorbed by Evil Boo to create Super Boo. Also he is a friend of Mister Satan and lives with him currently. Should we include the fact that Good Boo saved Vegeta and bought Gokou time to charge up the Genkidama by fighting Kid Boo.
So basically....
Fat Boo; is evil and originally stronger.
Good Boo; is purely good, originally the weakest version of Majin Boo, and currently lives with Mister Satan and a ally to the Z-Fighters.

And yes, Gokou could've been holding back. However Gokou can be shown blatantly holding back in many instances. Like unnecessarily transforming whenever there's no need. However Gokou decided to square up against Boo in Base form rather than transforming. Meaning he's not gonna completely messing around like he would against someone like the fodder in the Tournament of Power or Kururin in Super episode 84. But you can argue he was holding back if you want. It's really whatever though. I'm completely neutral towards it all though.

[Helios518]

Question: How would you all scale Current SSJBs to Normal Merged Zamasu due to SSJB Vegeta saying "I've never encountered an energy as strong and as heavy as this" to an even more suppressed Geran?

[Kenneth La Torre]

Question: How would you all scale Current SSJBs to Normal Merged Zamasu due to SSJB Vegeta saying "I've never encountered an energy as strong and as heavy as this" to an even more suppressed Geran?

Well, just like you said. Heavilly supressed jiren > merged zamasu. The current super saiyan blues should at least be able to fight on par with halo merged zamasu

[TheSaiyanGod]

It was stated UI Goku could only close the gap in power in order for UI to have some effect. This was against the same Jiren Goku Blue and Kaioken blue Goku was getting dominated by.

At the beginning of the fight, Goku SSB was able to press Jiren and throw him between several rocks with a single punch (even being at a disadvantage). He even hit a hit with the Blue Kaioken.

It does not make sense for Jiren not to increase his power when Goku became x20 more powerful with the Kaioken, and when he got the UI (which is MUCH stronger than the Blue).

Except blue Goku pushing Jiren through rocks or kk Goku even kicking his face absolutely had no effect whatsoever. Jiren dominated that Goku and UI Goku wasn't even as strong as that Jiren cause the power gap was only "closed" not stronger than Jiren.

If Jiren was being pressured by SSB KK (even if in general he was at an advantage), there is no reason for him to be able to swap punches against UI Goku without increasing his power

But anyway, Jiren was not using less against Vegeta power because he wanted to, Vegeta saw that he had slowed down the rhythm with the fright he had taken in the beginning of the fight (with Vegeta deflecting from his punches and hitting him) .
Vegeta just teased him and made Jiren realize that.

This is the same thing that Vegeta in the Saiyan saga did, saying that the Goku was not fighting him (Vegeta) as he fought against Nappa, which was clearly a provocation because Goku was at a disadvantage (the same with Jiren ).

It is good to remember that Jiren was using less power at that moment, but only Vegeta was able to understand his pattern of movement and hit him (while in round 2 Goku could not).

It's only been 39 minutes...Jiren and Goku only had one fight. Blue and UI count as round 1...As Goku just stated this episode that this is round 2!

So you think Jiren used SAME amount of power during the whole fight against Goku?

Even though he has fought against Goku SSB, SSB KK x20 and UI Goku?

Ofc, he stayed the same. Geran was only seen to power up once in that fight and it was at the start, but that power up was so big that Beerus couldn't believe a fighter could be this strong (Beerus also felt Cloud Zamasu's ki) and Geran's energy shook the WoV (Something Goku wasn't able to do until going UI the first time).

That does not mean much.

At EP 122, when Vegeta provokes Jiren speaking that he was faster and stronger against Goku, Jiren soon starts to gain advantage in the fight (whereas before, he was being pressured). You think here, he did not increase his power? And this was not clearly said, it is only a conclusion based on what was shown.

[dragon boss z]

You do realize Good Boo and Fat Boo are not the same dude. Just because they're both fat doesn't mean they're the same. Fat Boo is the Majin Boo who slaughtered galaxies over time, defeated and absorbed the original four Kaioshins, was under the control of Bibbidi and Bobbidi and was put in a dormant state until his release earlier in the Boo Saga immediately after the Tenkaichi Budokai. Fat Boo was revived, he defeated Gohan, Shin, and Majin Vegeta, then fought seeming on par with Super Saiyan 3 Gokou and destroyed Base form Gotenks.
Good Boo is the Boo that is the result of Fat Boo removing the evil within to create a completely evil manifestation of Majin Boo called Evil Boo. With most of the power going to Evil Boo, then got defeated and absorbed by Evil Boo to create Super Boo. Also he is a friend of Mister Satan and lives with him currently. Should we include the fact that Good Boo saved Vegeta and bought Gokou time to charge up the Genkidama by fighting Kid Boo.
So basically....
Fat Boo; is evil and originally stronger.
Good Boo; is purely good, originally the weakest version of Majin Boo, and currently lives with Mister Satan and a ally to the Z-Fighters.

And yes, Gokou could've been holding back. However Gokou can be shown blatantly holding back in many instances. Like unnecessarily transforming whenever there's no need. However Gokou decided to square up against Boo in Base form rather than transforming. Meaning he's not gonna completely messing around like he would against someone like the fodder in the Tournament of Power or Kururin in Super episode 84. But you can argue he was holding back if you want. It's really whatever though. I'm completely neutral towards it all though.

Yes I know I meant when Buu got fat again he probably lost all of his strength gains as well. Also that whole Buu becoming skinny and fighting Goku was filler. Buu is still Buu ranges in power, nothing implies otherwise.

[dragon boss z]

Tagoma's no joke. Gohan gauged his power in their fight and literally said Tagoma was "probably as strong as me when I was at my best". Gohan was likely referring to his Buu saga self. Tagoma's feats basically line up with this, then he got even stronger when Ginyu took over his body. The scene with Gotenks was mostly gag, but come on! It was a nutshot from a Super Saiyan, that could take just about anyone out save the characters who don't have 'em .

Except a rusty post prime Ssj Gohan beating a prime Buu saga Gohan in a few blows makes no sense.