Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[BlueBasilisk]

Tagoma's no joke. Gohan gauged his power in their fight and literally said Tagoma was "probably as strong as me when I was at my best". Gohan was likely referring to his Buu saga self. Tagoma's feats basically line up with this, then he got even stronger when Ginyu took over his body. The scene with Gotenks was mostly gag, but come on! It was a nutshot from a Super Saiyan, that could take just about anyone out save the characters who don't have 'em .

As far as Frieza being at SSJ or SSj2, I don't think that's the case. Frieza (white form) has to be far above everything but the god forms for the later scaling to work. Otherwise his Final Form is too close to Frost's. Slightly tired manga Frost was close enough to Piccolo in power that they had a good fight and even though he was a good deal stronger, he had to resort to cheating to win. Anime Frost was much more tired and the gap between him and Piccolo was presented to be much wider, but Piccolo still held his own and was able to block Frost's attacks, evade him, and trap him. Piccolo doing that well against any form of Frost even a tired one, automatically makes Frieza astronomically stronger unless Piccolo got a monumental boost between those two fights.

But that's why the RoF and U6 tournament power scales are incompatible. The RoF arc uses the movie's premise of Goku's base being god tier, while U6 introduces the old SSJ forms and throws out that god form base. Otherwise, every fighter in that tournament is god tier which we know isn't the case. Or you can choose to believe that they can turn their god powers on or off in case. But I just see an inconsistency since Goku and Vegeta's bases should've been high enough to stomp the competition until Hit.

I agree that Fit Buu is hard to gauge. Good Buu should be his same Buu saga power until he started training and got fit. So, Good Buu was likely in the SSJ2 realm, since he lost a good portion of the power that went to Evil/Kid Buu. He and Gohan were likely on the same level during the Zen Exhibition, but Buu's abilities give him the advantage.

Herms addressed the Tagoma thing on his twitter a while back. He said that the phrasing Gohan used usually means one's best on a particular day vs their all time best. That makes way more sense to me than Gohan somehow being stronger than his Ultimate self despite being out of shape for a couple years. The bigger head scratcher is Piccolo being weaker than Gohan. I don't think his power had been compared to any of the Super Saiyans since the Cell arc so I suppose it's possible Gohan had surpassed Piccolo by so much that he was still stronger even while rusty, but to me it honestly feels like they just forgot how strong Piccolo was supposed to be in RoF.

With Frost, it just depends on how strong Goku and Vegeta got during that stint in the HTC right before the tournament. Vegeta thought they wouldn't get much stronger and it's never clarified how much they did improve. But Frieza seemed to have the leg-up on Goku as Goku said he wouldn't be able to beat Frieza in his base form and Frieza was completely non-plussed when it looked like he had turned Super Saiyan, which suggests that he's stronger than that, contrasting to the movie where Goku was flat out beating his ass. Base Goku never went all-out on Frost but hopelessly outmatched him as a Super Saiyan so it still comes off as him being much weaker. It is also possible that Piccolo got a huge boost in the time that passed between those arcs. That happens a lot in Super. There's also a conflict in presentation where Goku says Piccolo has zero chance of beating Frost but the actual fight plays out like Piccolo would have won had he not been cheated.

[Shlugo]

New spoilers say that Dyspo's going to be toying around with both Freeza and Gohan at the same time. Seems to be less "Freeza is at a slight disadvantage and Gohan decides to help him finish Dyspo off", and more "Freeza is actually getting his ass handed to him, and Gohan decides to help because Freeza will lose if he doesn't".

That's completetly in line with what Jiren said earlier. I'm not sure why people were expecting anything else.

[Rally 07]

Yes I know I meant when Buu got fat again he probably lost all of his strength gains as well. Also that whole Buu becoming skinny and fighting Goku was filler. Buu is still Buu ranges in power, nothing implies otherwise.

Umm.... Super has no filler.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

New spoilers say that Dyspo's going to be toying around with both Freeza and Gohan at the same time. Seems to be less "Freeza is at a slight disadvantage and Gohan decides to help him finish Dyspo off", and more "Freeza is actually getting his ass handed to him, and Gohan decides to help because Freeza will lose if he doesn't".

That's completetly in line with what Jiren said earlier. I'm not sure why people were expecting anything else.

We have to be wary of spoilers, though.

Sometimes, they either don't happen or have some errors that point to different conclusion than what the episode actually showcases.

It's always best to take what's said before an episode airs with a grain of salt, if only so that we don't get all upset because the episode didn't play out exactly as how we formulated things would go based on limited and misleading pre-release information.

[Helios518]

That does not mean much.

At EP 122, when Vegeta provokes Jiren speaking that he was faster and stronger against Goku, Jiren soon starts to gain advantage in the fight (whereas before, he was being pressured). You think here, he did not increase his power? And this was not clearly said, it is only a conclusion based on what was shown.

Definitely, it could be applied to 122 but there's no reason to believe that Geran did the same in the special. Regardless if you're basing the statement of of 109's or 110's fight for Geran's power, the weakest Geran was literally enough to shake the WoV something that took UI Goku to do and not even SSJBKKx20 was able to do anything like that. If Geran powered up against UI (besides in the end), then I doubt it was anything significant.

[Xeogran]

If Dyspo is really this strong, then people ought to give Maji Kayo more respect now. Dude manhandled him in 5 seconds without any knowledge.

Yes, he was the perfect counter thanks to his regenerative ability, but that only shows he's a very versatile fighter in close combat.

[Marlowe89]

Then it's been confused ever since.

It really has, but I'm beginning to come to terms with Super's wildly differing interpretations when it comes to the overall power scale. Personally I feel like the manga is more specific and structured than the anime here, so I'm more or less using that medium as a backup indicator whenever things aren't so clear in Toei's version barring any individual form differences between the two.

On that note, it'll be interesting to see Vegeta's new form or whatever he's about to get as a power-up. I kind of like the idea that he's presumably going to follow a different route than Goku.

Question: How would you all scale Current SSJBs to Normal Merged Zamasu due to SSJB Vegeta saying "I've never encountered an energy as strong and as heavy as this" to an even more suppressed Geran?

In my opinion the current SSBs are on par with (normal) Merged Zamasu, which is pretty much how the manga has it as well.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Then it's been confused ever since.

It really has, but I'm beginning to come to terms with Super's wildly differing interpretations when it comes to the overall power scale. Personally I feel like the manga is more specific and structured than the anime here, so I'm more or less using that medium as a backup indicator whenever things aren't so clear in Toei's version barring any individual form differences between the two.

On that note, it'll be interesting to see Vegeta's new form or whatever he's about to get as a power-up. I kind of like the idea that he's presumably going to follow a different route than Goku.

Question: How would you all scale Current SSJBs to Normal Merged Zamasu due to SSJB Vegeta saying "I've never encountered an energy as strong and as heavy as this" to an even more suppressed Geran?

In my opinion the current SSBs are on par with (normal) Merged Zamasu, which is pretty much how the manga has it as well.

Yeah, its seems logical to place current ssb goku and vegeta on par with normal/halo merged zamasu. But at the same time, it gives us a picture on how ridiculously powerful jiren is compared to merged zamasu, so much so, that i think that a ssb vegito from the zamasu arc would be able to do hardly any damage.

[BWri]

Tagoma's no joke. Gohan gauged his power in their fight and literally said Tagoma was "probably as strong as me when I was at my best". Gohan was likely referring to his Buu saga self. Tagoma's feats basically line up with this, then he got even stronger when Ginyu took over his body. The scene with Gotenks was mostly gag, but come on! It was a nutshot from a Super Saiyan, that could take just about anyone out save the characters who don't have 'em .

As far as Frieza being at SSJ or SSj2, I don't think that's the case. Frieza (white form) has to be far above everything but the god forms for the later scaling to work. Otherwise his Final Form is too close to Frost's. Slightly tired manga Frost was close enough to Piccolo in power that they had a good fight and even though he was a good deal stronger, he had to resort to cheating to win. Anime Frost was much more tired and the gap between him and Piccolo was presented to be much wider, but Piccolo still held his own and was able to block Frost's attacks, evade him, and trap him. Piccolo doing that well against any form of Frost even a tired one, automatically makes Frieza astronomically stronger unless Piccolo got a monumental boost between those two fights.

But that's why the RoF and U6 tournament power scales are incompatible. The RoF arc uses the movie's premise of Goku's base being god tier, while U6 introduces the old SSJ forms and throws out that god form base. Otherwise, every fighter in that tournament is god tier which we know isn't the case. Or you can choose to believe that they can turn their god powers on or off in case. But I just see an inconsistency since Goku and Vegeta's bases should've been high enough to stomp the competition until Hit.

I agree that Fit Buu is hard to gauge. Good Buu should be his same Buu saga power until he started training and got fit. So, Good Buu was likely in the SSJ2 realm, since he lost a good portion of the power that went to Evil/Kid Buu. He and Gohan were likely on the same level during the Zen Exhibition, but Buu's abilities give him the advantage.

Herms addressed the Tagoma thing on his twitter a while back. He said that the phrasing Gohan used usually means one's best on a particular day vs their all time best. That makes way more sense to me than Gohan somehow being stronger than his Ultimate self despite being out of shape for a couple years.

Thanks for the link! Honestly, I'm glad to be proven wrong here, because that never made much sense to me.

The bigger head scratcher is Piccolo being weaker than Gohan. I don't think his power had been compared to any of the Super Saiyans since the Cell arc so I suppose it's possible Gohan had surpassed Piccolo by so much that he was still stronger even while rusty, but to me it honestly feels like they just forgot how strong Piccolo was supposed to be in RoF.

He did have his weights on the whole time. I saw that as an out for the writers when I later rewatched this fight. This same weighted Piccolo was fast enough to bypass Ginyu-Goma and beat Frieza's death beam in time to cover Gohan. But honestly, they were likely going by the movies, which vaguely implied that base Gohan was similar to Piccolo and that SSJ Gohan was vastly superior to him.

With Frost, it just depends on how strong Goku and Vegeta got during that stint in the HTC right before the tournament. Vegeta thought they wouldn't get much stronger and it's never clarified how much they did improve. But Frieza seemed to have the leg-up on Goku as Goku said he wouldn't be able to beat Frieza in his base form and Frieza was completely non-plussed when it looked like he had turned Super Saiyan, which suggests that he's stronger than that, contrasting to the movie where Goku was flat out beating his ass. Base Goku never went all-out on Frost but hopelessly outmatched him as a Super Saiyan so it still comes off as him being much weaker. It is also possible that Piccolo got a huge boost in the time that passed between those arcs. That happens a lot in Super. There's also a conflict in presentation where Goku says Piccolo has zero chance of beating Frost but the actual fight plays out like Piccolo would have won had he not been cheated.

Yeah, I thought about every single thing you said here and came to the conclusion that those two arcs are operating with different power scales. U6 is where the whole two base theory gained most of its traction thanks to the introduction of inferior Super Saiyan forms. At the time, I reconciled that base Frost (hornless) was stronger than base Frieza (white form) because Frost's first suppression aka assault form forced Goku to go SSJ in the anime, so if we're operating with those same RoF levels Assault Frost >>>> base Frieza >>>>>>>> final suppression Frieza >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Piccolo RoF. And if Frost's forms have the same power difference as Frieza's then his base form is somewhere in the ballpark of 40x - 60x stronger than his Assault Form. For Piccolo to even do remotely well against a tired opponent of that caliber would put him somewhere close to Goku's base which didn't make a lot of sense. He did have 8 months of training, but that's a ridiculous jump for someone who seemed completely stagnant before, though Piccolo does tend to grow like mad when he has a training partner. But if the scale of the two arcs were fluid like they want us to believe, it would make the likes of Cabba, Magetta, Frost, and Piccolo basically god tier or close to it. Thankfully the ToP has helped us mostly dispel that notion.
edit: Either that or Goku and Vegeta are sandbagging again and using crazy power multiplying forms just to lower their strength lower than their base levels

Tagoma's no joke. Gohan gauged his power in their fight and literally said Tagoma was "probably as strong as me when I was at my best". Gohan was likely referring to his Buu saga self. Tagoma's feats basically line up with this, then he got even stronger when Ginyu took over his body. The scene with Gotenks was mostly gag, but come on! It was a nutshot from a Super Saiyan, that could take just about anyone out save the characters who don't have 'em .

Except a rusty post prime Ssj Gohan beating a prime Buu saga Gohan in a few blows makes no sense.

You have no argument from me that it makes no sense. I was proven wrong by BlueBasilisk's reponse just above. But honestly, even when I believed Gohan's statement referred to the Buu saga, I didn't think it made any sense. I was just taking it at face value.

[dragon boss z]

Umm.... Super has no filler.

Anything not apart of Toriyama's manuscript is essentially filler. Super even has filler characters from Z in it.

You have no argument from me that it makes no sense. I was proven wrong by BlueBasilisk's reponse just above. But honestly, even when I believed Gohan's statement referred to the Buu saga, I didn't think it made any sense. I was just taking it at face value.

I already knew of BlueBasilisk said, I just knew someone probably already mentioned it to you.
And my argument was a post prime Gohan shouldn't be able to stomp a prime Gohan, which is a complete logical argument.

[BWri]

Then it's been confused ever since.

It really has, but I'm beginning to come to terms with Super's wildly differing interpretations when it comes to the overall power scale. Personally I feel like the manga is more specific and structured than the anime here, so I'm more or less using that medium as a backup indicator whenever things aren't so clear in Toei's version barring any individual form differences between the two.

I think Toei's gotten better at understanding the scale, or might even have created one of their own. There's still wonkiness in how some characters are presented, but I blame that on the revolving door of writers. I noticed an improvement in the power scale when Goku fought Kale and Caulifla the second time. I saw that a good amount of detail was put into showcasing how each girl stacked up to each of Goku's forms. Since then, I've found the scaling to be solid. There's nothing blatantly wrong at least.

Only character that confused me after was #18. If she didn't outright overpower Ribrianne, I would have easily had her only a little above her Android saga self. Now, there's a chance that she's above Piccolo or at least closer to him than I thought before. I guess I'm okay with that, since 17 can get so strong. Just wish she showed this potential earlier in the series *cough*Buu Saga*cough**cough*

[Hugo Boss]

Yes I know I meant when Buu got fat again he probably lost all of his strength gains as well. Also that whole Buu becoming skinny and fighting Goku was filler. Buu is still Buu ranges in power, nothing implies otherwise.

Boo seems to be on par with Basil before they show their real strength, but once Satan is hurt, Boo’s power increases dramatically, to the point even a powered-up Basil can’t defeat him. When he spars with Goku, his new form is noted to be faster, and probably as powerful as the older. And he wasn’t even serious when he dropped Goku out.

[Noah]

Umm.... Super has no filler.

Anything not apart of Toriyama's manuscript is essentially filler. Super even has filler characters from Z in it.

We don't know what is "Toriyama's manuscript" most of the work in the manga is Toyotaro who admitted to use some of his own ideas. Also the anime is the main product who was advertised by Toriyama himself.

[Miracles]

If Jiren was being pressured by SSB KK (even if in general he was at an advantage), there is no reason for him to be able to swap punches against UI Goku without increasing his power

But anyway, Jiren was not using less against Vegeta power because he wanted to, Vegeta saw that he had slowed down the rhythm with the fright he had taken in the beginning of the fight (with Vegeta deflecting from his punches and hitting him) .
Vegeta just teased him and made Jiren realize that.

This is the same thing that Vegeta in the Saiyan saga did, saying that the Goku was not fighting him (Vegeta) as he fought against Nappa, which was clearly a provocation because Goku was at a disadvantage (the same with Jiren ).

It is good to remember that Jiren was using less power at that moment, but only Vegeta was able to understand his pattern of movement and hit him (while in round 2 Goku could not).

Regardless if Vegeta was provoking or taunting Jiren, it doesn't matter, cause his remark was still true.
Immediately after the blunt statement, Vegeta got bodied easily and even struggled to stay in bounds.
And the bold in your posts aren't factual, Jiren bodied Goku blue and kk blue in a dominating fashion.
Then casually blinked out KKX20 Blue Goku X Genki Dama! UI Goku was only stated to have ONLY "closed the gap in power" to THIS Jiren Vegeta was talking about.

[TheSaiyanGod]

If Jiren was being pressured by SSB KK (even if in general he was at an advantage), there is no reason for him to be able to swap punches against UI Goku without increasing his power

But anyway, Jiren was not using less against Vegeta power because he wanted to, Vegeta saw that he had slowed down the rhythm with the fright he had taken in the beginning of the fight (with Vegeta deflecting from his punches and hitting him) .
Vegeta just teased him and made Jiren realize that.

This is the same thing that Vegeta in the Saiyan saga did, saying that the Goku was not fighting him (Vegeta) as he fought against Nappa, which was clearly a provocation because Goku was at a disadvantage (the same with Jiren ).

It is good to remember that Jiren was using less power at that moment, but only Vegeta was able to understand his pattern of movement and hit him (while in round 2 Goku could not).

Regardless if Vegeta was provoking or taunting Jiren, it doesn't matter, cause his remark was still true.
Immediately after the blunt statement, Vegeta got bodied easily and even struggled to stay in bounds.
And the bold in your posts aren't factual, Jiren bodied Goku blue and kk blue in a dominating fashion.
Then casually blinked out KKX20 Blue Goku X Genki Dama! UI Goku was only stated to have ONLY "closed the gap in power" to THIS Jiren Vegeta was talking about.

I do not think you understood my point.

First, it was clear that Jiren was in a great advantage in the fight against Goku, I never denied it. The point is that there were moments of the fight in which he was pressured (more precisely spoken, at the beginning when he is thrown away by a punch from Goku SSB and when SSB KK hits a blow on him). And the UI is MUCH stronger than the SSB, so I assume against UI, Jiren needed to use more power (after all, previously Blue Goku was able to at least press).

And it's also a fact that Jiren was using less power against Vegea, again I never denied it. But this did not occur because Jiren was underestimating Vegeta or because Vegeta was weaker, but because he was very frightened by the fact that Saiyajin had deflected the blows and hit him with a punch. Then, Jiren slowed his pace, Vegeta realized this and teased him. But Goku in round 2 could not hit him anyway, while Vegeta did

[dragon boss z]

Boo seems to be on par with Basil before they show their real strength, but once Satan is hurt, Boo’s power increases dramatically, to the point even a powered-up Basil can’t defeat him. When he spars with Goku, his new form is noted to be faster, and probably as powerful as the older. And he wasn’t even serious when he dropped Goku out.

Buu was just playing with Basil before Mr. Satan got hurt. Buu would of destroyed him instantly if he started off bloodlusted. Goku and Gohan when image training even thought Krillin could fight Basil for a bit before losing.

We don't know what is "Toriyama's manuscript" most of the work in the manga is Toyotaro who admitted to use some of his own ideas.

Yes, not everything in the manga is part of Toriyama's manuscript either, but if something doesn't show up in both it probably isn't. Somethigns are obviously a part of the manuscript, for example Buu going to sleep and recruiting Frieza. While somethings obviously aren't, like the potafu arc in the anime and the super mario kart parady in the manga

Also the anime is the main product who was advertised by Toriyama himself.

It's the main marketing product because it makes the most money. It was never stated to be more canon or anything and Toriyama is actually more involved with the manga and has a closer relationship with Toyotaro.

[Kenneth La Torre]

If Jiren was being pressured by SSB KK (even if in general he was at an advantage), there is no reason for him to be able to swap punches against UI Goku without increasing his power

But anyway, Jiren was not using less against Vegeta power because he wanted to, Vegeta saw that he had slowed down the rhythm with the fright he had taken in the beginning of the fight (with Vegeta deflecting from his punches and hitting him) .
Vegeta just teased him and made Jiren realize that.

This is the same thing that Vegeta in the Saiyan saga did, saying that the Goku was not fighting him (Vegeta) as he fought against Nappa, which was clearly a provocation because Goku was at a disadvantage (the same with Jiren ).

It is good to remember that Jiren was using less power at that moment, but only Vegeta was able to understand his pattern of movement and hit him (while in round 2 Goku could not).

Regardless if Vegeta was provoking or taunting Jiren, it doesn't matter, cause his remark was still true.
Immediately after the blunt statement, Vegeta got bodied easily and even struggled to stay in bounds.
And the bold in your posts aren't factual, Jiren bodied Goku blue and kk blue in a dominating fashion.
Then casually blinked out KKX20 Blue Goku X Genki Dama! UI Goku was only stated to have ONLY "closed the gap in power" to THIS Jiren Vegeta was talking about.

I do not think you understood my point.

First, it was clear that Jiren was in a great advantage in the fight against Goku, I never denied it. The point is that there were moments of the fight in which he was pressured (more precisely spoken, at the beginning when he is thrown away by a punch from Goku SSB and when SSB KK hits a blow on him). And the UI is MUCH stronger than the SSB, so I assume against UI, Jiren needed to use more power (after all, previously Blue Goku was able to at least press).

And it's also a fact that Jiren was using less power against Vegea, again I never denied it. But this did not occur because Jiren was underestimating Vegeta or because Vegeta was weaker, but because he was very frightened by the fact that Saiyajin had deflected the blows and hit him with a punch. Then, Jiren slowed his pace, Vegeta realized this and teased him. But Goku in round 2 could not hit him anyway, while Vegeta did

During the first fight against ssb goku and jiren, jiren was never pressured what so ever. The punch that sent him flying just did that, sent him flying, nothing else. That level of power he used on goku in the beggining was enought for him to blink goku ssb×20 like nothing. Only UI managed to close the gap, as was stated in the special. Jiren only powered up after he saw that the level of power he was using was not effective against UI goku

[buutenks]

I think due to Vegeta getting a power up or new form or w/e he is getting, it is a bit moot to discuss where Vegeta stands as of ep 122. It is very ambiguous and Jiren is always using enough power to overwhelm someone but not instantly crush them. So it is hard to tell. And then there is the statement. Tho no doubt the FInal Flash definitely had a big PL, proly higher than the GD, since Belmod was more freaked out about the Final Flash's battle power than the Genki Dama's battle power.

[Bullza]

I don't know if Vegeta's Final Flash was above the Spirit Bomb but I'd definitely say it would have easily have overpowered Merged Zamasu's (Halo) blast, the same one Goku overpowered but Vegeta would do so no problem.

Super Saiyan Blue Goku could be around the level of that Merged Zamasu but yeah I'd think Vegeta would be comfortably above that now.

[Hugo Boss]

Boo seems to be on par with Basil before they show their real strength, but once Satan is hurt, Boo’s power increases dramatically, to the point even a powered-up Basil can’t defeat him. When he spars with Goku, his new form is noted to be faster, and probably as powerful as the older. And he wasn’t even serious when he dropped Goku out.

Buu was just playing with Basil before Mr. Satan got hurt. Buu would of destroyed him instantly if he started off bloodlusted. Goku and Gohan when image training even thought Krillin could fight Basil for a bit before losing.

So, that much we agree. My point is when Boo is playing around he can trade blows evenly with Basil (pre-shining blaster mode), which seems close to Base Goku’s level in the actual tournament.