Dragon Ball Z - Episodes 21-25 - Discussion Thread [Rewatch - Week 5]

[Ajay]

Welcome! For details on this rewatch, click here!

Wow, are we already on week 5?! This feels like it's going by really quickly. Still enjoying ourselves?

Here are some legal ways to stream the series:
Funimation (North America)
AnimeLab (Australia and New Zealand)

This week we're covering:

[spoiler]いでよ神龍！サイヤ人ついに地球到着
Ide yo Shenron! Saiya-jin Tsui ni Chikyū Tōchaku
Come Forth, Shenlong! The Saiyans Finally Arrive on Earth

After studying the Kaiō-Ken that Kaiō passed on to him, Goku tests out the effect of the Genki-Dama, which he learned as well! The Saiyan will arrive on Earth tomorrow, one month earlier than expected. But Kaiō forgot about the time it will take Goku to return to the lower realm! After receiving Goku’s message, Kame-Sen’nin uses the Dragon Balls to call forth Shenlong, and restores Goku to life. The next day at 11:43 AM, the Saiyan at last land in East City!!

んなバカな！！土から生まれたサイバイマン
‘nna Baka na!! Tsuchi kara Umareta Saibaiman
Unbelievable!! Saibaimen, Born from the Soil

Vegeta and Nappa emerge from the two space pods. Nappa wipes out East City in a single blast, and he and Vegeta fly to Piccolo and Gohan’s island in search of the Dragon Balls. Kuririn shows up where Piccolo and Gohan are. They face off with Vegeta and Nappa, and Piccolo learns for the first time that he is a Namekian when he is told so by Nappa! At Vegeta’s order, Nappa plants some seeds in the ground, and from them six ferocious Saibaimen are born!!

ヤムチャ死す！おそるべしサイバイマン
Yamucha Shisu! Osoru Beshi Saibaiman
Yamcha Dies! The Terror of the Saibaimen

Tenshinhan, Chiaotzu, and then Yamcha fly in to where Piccolo and the others are fighting the Saibaimen. Vegeta suggests they have a game of one-on-one, so first Tenshinhan faces off against a single Saibaiman. The Saibaiman shoots acid from his head, but because he is defeated by Tenshinhan, he is easily annihilated by Vegeta! Next, Yamcha fights in place of Kuririn, and the Saibaiman he defeats latches onto him and self-destructs!! Kuririn is furious!

さよなら天さん！餃子の捨て身の戦法
Sayonara Ten-san! Chaozu no Sutemi no Senpō
Farewell Ten-san! Chiaotzu’s Suicide Strategy

As Bulma cries from watching a television relay from the scene of the battle, Kame-Sen’nin consoles her by saying that Yamcha can be brought back to life with the Dragon Balls. The ki blast fired by the enraged Kuririn defeats three of the Saibaimen, and Piccolo wipes out the surviving one, but Vegeta and Nappa are uninjured! After getting Vegeta’s permission to fight against all five of them on his own, Nappa knocks off Tenshinhan’s left arm! Chiaotzu clings to Nappa’s back and self-destructs! But even with this, Nappa is unaffected.

天津飯絶叫！！これが最後の気功砲だ
Tenshinhan Zekkyō!! Kore ga Saigo no Kikōhō da
Tenshinhan Cries Out!! This is My Last Kikōhō

Nappa beats Tenshinhan around after Tenshinhan, weeping at Chiaotzu’s death, furiously attacked him! Piccolo challenges Nappa with a combo play, but their surprise attack fails when Gohan gets scared and runs away. With even Piccolo and Kuririn’s doppelganger attack being ineffective, they constantly endure Nappa’s wild attacks. Tenshinhan dies after firing a Kikōhō mustering the last of his energy!! Even this doesn’t defeat Nappa!! Vegeta tells Kuririn that he will stop the battle for three hours, until Goku comes.[/spoiler]


Suggested Format & Weekly Questions

Language: For the sake of context, let us know which language you're watching the series in (and what score, if required).
General Thoughts: Your thoughts on the episode, possibly linked to the suggested questions if need be. Cover the plot, the tone, the character interactions, and characterisation.
Entertainment Factor: How was the pacing? Did the episode keep you entertained throughout, or what could have been done better?
Animation: Did you like the action sequences, or the way characters emoted? Did things move in a satisfying way, or was it mostly style over substance?
Questions: Not necessary, but if you're curious about opinions on a specific point that hasn't been touched on, go ahead and ask! It's a nice way to spur the topic onward.

- Episode 21 marks a significant change of pace, introducing a jump in time to just before the Saiyans arrive. While a time-skip occurs in the manga, it doesn't have a reasonably-paced filler arc preceding it. Does this skip feel natural in conjunction with the anime's original content?

- A large number of characters die during this short span of episodes. Do they all carry the same weight, and if not, what makes one more effective than the other?

[sintzu]

Watching 3 of earth's strongest (especially Tien) die like that really pushed the message that these guys aren't playing around and showed just how dangerous the situation was, something DB always excels at. I really liked how brutal everything was cause it really added to the notion that they were going up against killers.

[OhHiRenan]

Episode 21 marks a significant change of pace, introducing a jump in time to just before the Saiyans arrive. While a time-skip occurs in the manga, it doesn't have a reasonably-paced filler arc preceding it. Does this skip feel natural in conjunction with the anime's original content?

Eh, I’d hardly called the filler arc reasonably-paced. The manga could have spent more time on the training, sure, but the anime really drags things out and feels more derivative than not during this mini arc. Goku’s half especially suffers while Gohan fares a bit better, but I do feel his character development in the filler takes away from his actual development in the manga adapted scenes. The timeskip does still feel natural, though, and the filler does build up to a transition that makes sense. I just don’t believe the manga’s timeskip was worse. It gets to the point and cuts at a time that makes perfect sense for the story.

- A large number of characters die during this short span of episodes. Do they all carry the same weight, and if not, what makes one more effective than the other?

They don’t really carry the same weight. Yamcha’s is the most shocking and the one that impacts me the most in the manga, but Tenshinhan’s death in the anime is incredibly powerful. I think it’s still good in the manga, but the anime hits all the right notes. Chaozu’s death is definitely shocking and sad in both mediums, but he’s never been as defined a character as everyone else. I’d say the anime handles his death better since it plays into Ten’s amazing anime death. I will say their deaths do raise the stakes considerably and cement just how serious a threat the Saiyans are.

[gaberparadiso]

Episode 21

General thoughts: this is a fair build-up for the Saiyans' arrival. The structure of this episode is pretty simple, and unlike some previous episodes, where nothing important actually happened, a lot of things happen in this: Goku showing his new techniques, Goku being resurrected with the Dragon Balls, Piccolo ending his training with Gohan and of course, Vegeta and Nappa landing on Earth. I think they sped up the story considerably after 20 slow-paced episodes, also through a mini time skip. However, I admit Kaio's miscalculation is kind of an ass-pull, since he was shown calculating how much time was left in ep. 19. So, what's the reason for his mistake? To make Goku enter the fight scene at the right moment plot device? I'm afraid this device will be a bit overused in the future. But still, the telepathic dialogue between Goku and Kamesennin was fun, and Piccolo's reaction after roasting Gohan is very important. By now we can immediately see how his attitude changed from their first approach back in ep. 6. The main scene is a bit slow, but works in this case, because it builds up some tension before and after the two Saiyans arrive.

Entertainment factor: much faster pacing than the previous episodes. The crucial scene of the Saiyans' arrival is slowed down, but it does work for this reason.

Animation: here Okazaki's storyboarding is not as consistent as his direction, because it doesn't give enough value to visuals and honestly, doesn't look that interesting, either. Fortunately, we can't say the same thing about Maeda's Fantastic 4. Four great artists, who deliver really solid artwork as usual. Satou's Goku looks really confident and proud, and his Piccolo looks more like an actual demon (in Dead Zone movie, he drew his canines sticking out of his mouth in a shot). https://twitter.com/DBanimators/status/ ... 9263495168 I really love Ide's shading, whereas Nakatsuru really struggles at delivering good expressivity: Gohan's reactions while Piccolo is attacking him feel quite unnatural. https://twitter.com/DBanimators/status/ ... 1959378950 Animation-wise, there's nothing much to say, with the exception of Goku's training scene, animated by Nakatsuru, during the recap. This is maybe the only time in which a specific cut from the actual episode is included in the recap from the previous one. https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/43370

Music: this is the first episode to use M8** soundtrack, right from DBZ movie 1 Dead Zone or Return My Gohan. And even though only some of them are used in this, the difference in quality with the others is so evident. That movie has probably one of the best Kikuchi soundtracks: M815 while Goku charges his Genkidama, M807 while Kaio tells him about the Genkidama, M806 which is a much slower version of Shenron's Theme from DB, and of course, M802 which will be played at the end of a lot of episodes. As for the other BGMs, some are either looped or played twice, like M734. Overall, a fairly good placement.

Overall thoughts: 7/10, fairly good pacing and direction.

[Ajay]

Eh, I’d hardly called the filler arc reasonably-paced. The manga could have spent more time on the training, sure, but the anime really drags things out and feels more derivative than not during this mini arc.

Perhaps "consistently" would have been a better word. It wasn't a comment on its quality, but rather how the events are presented time-wise. The question's basically asking you whether a series of sequential episodes followed by a sudden time-skip is jarring in comparison to the manga where the skip comes right after establishing where all the characters are at.

[OhHiRenan]

Eh, I’d hardly called the filler arc reasonably-paced. The manga could have spent more time on the training, sure, but the anime really drags things out and feels more derivative than not during this mini arc.

Perhaps "consistently" would have been a better word. It wasn't a comment on its quality, but rather how the events are presented time-wise. The question's basically asking you whether a series of sequential episodes followed by a sudden time-skip is jarring in comparison to the manga where the skip comes right after establishing where all the characters are at.

Ohhh, I gotcha. Alright, that makes more sense. I totally read that wrong, haha.

With that context in mind, I suppose it is a bit jarring, isn’t it? Since the anime slows things down so much, I feel you’d expect it to continue to take its time. I don’t think I really realized just how different the jumps were until you pointed it out. We expect that kind of pacing from the manga, but the anime went slow and then plowed ahead.

[Ajay]

How would everyone feel about throwing the movies in optionally during this rewatch? Movie 1 premiered during week 3 of our rewatch. If you want to add some comments about it in this thread, then by all means go ahead!

[ABED]

DBZ movie 1 has some of the best fights in the entire series. I loved seeing Goku dodge and take on 3 guys at one time. The other thing that sticks out to me is I still get goosebumps everytime Piccolo shows up and gets revenge on Garlic Jr.'s goons who ambushed him, especially when his theme kicks in.

[gaberparadiso]

Episode 22

General thoughts: WHAT'S THE POINT OF YAJIROBE'S CUTSCENE? They wanted to give him screen time, so that they could go with a food gag? It may not be the worst thing ever, but it feels pointless by all means. With that said, this episode is not bad. I feel Horikawa underacted on Vegeta, which is kinda ironic considering how much he tends to overact nowadays. It was nice to hear the first dialogues between Krillin, Gohan and Piccolo, and finally we know about the latter's real Namekian origin. It's kinda absurd to see Piccolo and Kami's astonishment... they simply had to look themselves at the mirror: how could they expect to be humans, with their green skin, pointy ears and antennas?? Especially Kami, who is supposed to be intelligent. Moreover, I can't help to notice how Saibamen's screech sounds so similar to Cell jrs.

Entertainment factor: it's a well directed episode, even though it has the habit of extending unneeded scenes once again, like the sequence with Yajirobe and Kami's preaching about his origin.

Animation: Takenouchi's storyboarding is clearly a considerable step up over ep. 19, here it feels like an actual added value, as it gives a bigger weight on the Saiyan's threat: animals escaping, excessive use of harmony cels, neat transitions or glares on their scouters. https://twitter.com/DBanimators/status/ ... 1571853313 Art-wise, Uchiyama's corrections are pretty much dominant, which aren't an added value, unlike Takenouchi's output: his lack of shading and details feels actually more cartoony than anime-ish. In terms of animation, Ohara provides key animation on the uncovering of Piccolo and Kami's origins, whereas Shida animates part of Yajirobe's sequence and the ending scene with the Saibamen showing their power. Not the best work from both talents, but they look kind of nice. https://twitter.com/DBanimators/status/ ... 9889971205 https://twitter.com/DBanimators/status/ ... 6464124928

Music: pretty solid placement. It's always nice to hear M8** compilation, with crucial tracks like M814 and M816 being used for the absolute first time here. The former when Nappa reads their power levels, and the latter during Saibamen's attack at the end.

Overall thoughts: 7/10, another serviceable episode.

[ABED]

They never believed themselves to be human, they simply didn't know about their alien origin. Kami forgot his own name, and Piccolo was the spawn of a demon. Given the weirdness of the world, it's not that hard to believe they didn't think they weren't from Earth, regardless of not being human.

I'm a big fan of Nappa and Vegeta. Memorable designs and characters. I was twelve when I first saw these episodes and it surprised me how much stronger Vegeta was than Nappa.

If I recall, we don't even find out Vegeta is a prince until the next story arc.

[TrunksTrevelyan0064]

Episodes covered: Dragon Ball Z 21-25 ("Dragon Ball 174-178")


EPISODE 21
* Best-looking episode yet? Gorgeous animation, and the overall art style is very reminiscent of the early Z movies. ...Yep that's all I have to say about that. Here we have Ajay describing in detail who animated what, and meanwhile I'm over here just going "durrr it looks pretty". I guess I'm just not curious enough about the individual animators and their work to study it all that thoroughly? This in stark contrast to the manga, oddly enough, where my admiration of Toriyama's original artwork knows no bounds.
* I never thought about this before, but - what if Kaiô had calculated the time correctly and Goku got to Earth in time? How different the battle would be! How many lives would be saved! Goodbye Namek arc because I don't see Piccolo dying nor Vegeta surviving! Goodbye Earth when Freeza eventually comes for it (unless enough time has passed by then for Goku to fulfil the legend)!
* Why does it zoom in on Nappa specifically at the end? Are we supposed to think he's the scariest of the two?

EPISODE 22
* Yajirobe is like the Mr Satan of this arc, especially in the anime. Avoids fighting a deadly enemy but profits off of the situation anyway, and, against all odds, ends up doing something pivotal during the climax of the battle.
* Ah, the beginnings of a bond between Gohan and Kuririn. I feel like that friendship goes a little underappreciated. It's always Piccolo who is seen as Gohan's closest friend, but Kuririn also ends up going through a lot with him.

EPISODE 23
* Ah, the lovely spoilery titles. How am I ever gonna introduce a newcomer to this series? I'd have to make sure they shut their eyes and ears during the title screens or something.
* Hah. Chiaotzu's like "Hey Kuririn!" and Kuririn goes "Tenshinhan!! Oh and you're here too Chiaotzu?" YEAH HE'S THE ONE THAT JUST CALLED OUT YOUR NAME, DUDE. Poor Chiaotzu.
* I REALLY love how this episode showcases experience vs (mainly Gohan's) inexperience. Kuririn and Yamcha are often called useless by fans (albeit in a joking way) but I refuse to see them like that; I prefer to remember them the way they are portrayed here: as highly skilled martial artists with years of serious training under their belts. The journalists even recognize some of the fighters as Tenka'ichi Budôkai veterans, which just goes to show that they are indeed impressive (by Earth's standards, at least).
* I'm glad Tenshinhan and Yamcha each get a cool fight in before their untimely demises. One last hurrah for two characters I'm very fond of.
* I never really considered this, but the idea that Vegeta can just *pop* all of Earth's fighters like he did that Saibaiman is pretty damn frightening. The only reason the battle doesn't end right here and now is that Vegeta doesn't feel like ending it just yet.
* Holy crap. I am used to the manga version of Yamcha's death, but I much prefer how the anime handled it - the reactions from Kuririn, Bulma, and Pu'er feel completely real and actually make me a little emotional.
* It's kind of surreal that, as Kuririn prepares to avenge Yamcha, we hear the same music that played right around Kuririn's own death in the Piccolo Daimaô arc.

EPISODE 24
* Not a fan of that added scene of Nappa mouth-blasting Chiaotzu. There's no sense of power behind the animation; it kinda just looks like Nappa vomits some ki. And it doesn't make sense that Chiaotzu remains completely unscathed despite being hit head-on.
* I do like how tough Chiaotzu is being portrayed while he's clinging to Nappa's back. Probably his finest moment in all of Dragon Ball. And that's not saying much, but hey, it's something.

EPISODE 25
* Coming off of Chiaotzu's death, I realized we never see Tenshinhan actually cry, and that got me thinking: can his third eye shed tears?
* These chapters in the manga never fail to catch my eye. They look stunningly gorgeous - I'd go so far as to say it's the best-looking part of Dragon Ball. My personal opinion, of course.
* Holy crap does Masako Nozawa sound convincing as a terrified little child (reading that, that sounds almost insulting - I mean it in the most positive sense possible)!
* Just like in episode 15, Piccolo's bodies merging back into one looks hilariously violent.
* The Chiaotzu flashback scenes - another reason not to skip the pre-Z stuff. If you have no idea who these characters are, these scenes probably seem really random and almost pointless.
* There it is. THE scene. "Kore ga... kore ga ore no... saigo no... KIKÔHÔ DA!!!" The transition of the music from sentimental to dramatic, the strain in Hirotaka Suzuoki's voice... What a way to go out, Tenshinhan. I salute you.
* I wish I could end it on that note, but I have to mention Piccolo's line of "Is he immortal?!" THAT is how powerful the Kikôhô is. And THAT is how insanely tough Nappa is.


- Episode 21 marks a significant change of pace, introducing a jump in time to just before the Saiyans arrive. While a time-skip occurs in the manga, it doesn't have a reasonably-paced filler arc preceding it. Does this skip feel natural in conjunction with the anime's original content?
It actually did make me go "Wait, already?" We spent sooo many episodes watching Goku run along the serpent road, now finally he has reached Kaiô's, and... wait what? We just skip straight to the end of his training? I get that they can't really show much because the Kaiô-Ken is supposed to come as a surprise later, but the sudden acceleration of pace did feel a little jarring. On the other hand, jumping ahead to the Saiyans' arrival does help you relate to the Earthlings who are going "Oh crap, the Saiyans are coming a month sooner than we thought!!"

- A large number of characters die during this short span of episodes. Do they all carry the same weight, and if not, what makes one more effective than the other?
Out of all the fighters that die, it's the three we've spent the least amount of time with (in Z), so that makes the impact hurt less than it could have done. Especially if you aren't familiar with the pre-Z material and don't really know who these characters actually are. What does carry weight is that it's so many deaths in quick succession and that even Piccolo gets scared. You do get the sense that we need Goku to arrive now or we're doomed. Also, it's the emotional reactions from Kuririn, Bulma et al that really get to me, more so than the deaths themselves.
That said, I do have a soft spot for Yamcha and Tenshinhan (sorry, Chiaotzu, you just... haven't given me much reason to grow all that attached to you) so I'm always sad to see them go. I'm always left wondering how cool it could've been if they had journeyed to Planet Namek with the others. That's what I love about that old Super Saiya Densetsu game; any party members that survive the battle against the Saiyans get to come along and fight Freeza's army with you.


Favorite character: Tenshinhan. He is probably my favorite Dragon Ball character in general, and between his Saibaiman fight and his "final Kikôhô", I now have a solid reason to list him here. Honorable mentions to Kuririn, Yamcha, and Piccolo, but I can only pick one.
Previous favorites: Raditz, Gohan, the saber-toothed tiger, Kaiô.

[Taisa732]

Language: Japanese

General Thoughts: We can now begin! Goku is back to life and the saiyans arrive on Earth (finally with the right colours!).
Episode 21: This one always gets me hyped. After what seems like a real life year of fillers the moment you see the pods land I'm always so happy. Doesn't matter if the rest of the episode is only building up to it.
Going in order, Goku and Kaio's interactions are very nice. I like when Kaio gives him a new uniform and Goku comments on the kanji, not realizing he has a huge one on his back.
And the scene where Goku tells Kamesennin to resurrect him makes me laugh to this day. I don't know what it is, maybe it's just that I imagine the others listening to this conversation apparently one-sided that comes out of nowhere. It's so funny and so Toriyama style, mixing a serious situation with comedy without ruining the atmosphere. Love it.
Also loved the last training between Gohan and Piccolo, where you can see the difference from before. Piccolo's reactions when he realize that he went too far and his sigh of relief tells you all you need to know in a simple scene.
Finally, the landing is so beautiful. The atmosphere, the buildup, the tension. I simply adore every second of it.

Episode 22: Main thing that immediately needs to be addressed is the relation between Nappa and Vegeta. From the very start you can tell that they are not equals. Something is up and you can easily see that Vegeta is obviously the leader. BUT, it's also easy to fall in a well laid trap. Just by looking at them you'd think that Nappa is the brawn and Vegeta is just the brain.
This is also the episode that introduces the relationship between Krillin and Gohan, that will become important in the next arc. It's just a small little introductory dialogue for now, but it's nice to see.
Speaking of the next saga, we have all the revelation about Piccolo's real origins. A side from the fact that Toriyama had the idea half way through, I like that some aliens from space are the ones to know about and inform (us) about Namek and the namekians. It does gave you the idea that Earth is detached form the rest of the universe and that space is vast filled with much more threatening beings.

Episode 23: I swear, I don't want to complain everytime, but this is the weakest of the week. Honestly it's because of two reasons: the pacing and Yamcha's death. I'll reserve it for the entertainment section.
But I have to say that Vegeta killig the saibaiman is one of my favourite things ever (especially in the manga).

Episode 24: So, positive about this episode is Krilin's performance at the very beginning (Bunsan Enerugi Ha is and underestimate technique, I would like to see it used more often).
Nappa's power is great to watch. It's a good way to link Raditz to Vegeta. Our heroes barely managed to get past the first, so when Nappa starts his killings it makes his predecessor look like a joke.
Guess the only good thing about the Snake princess is to make us understand how much of the serpent path Goku has already gone trough before arriving at his destination.
I huge negative has to be the start of the episode. I relay dislike how they handled Yamcha's death, particularly how they conveyed the other's reactions to the situation. I won't go into details, but already the scene at the Kame House is a bit of a problem for me.
Let me put it into prospective, for people that hold Yamcha dearly this is a emotional and sad moment. Bulma and Pual are the ones that are suffering the most. So we have a very nice and touching instant where Muten is trying to console Bulma in a very fragile emotional state and he actually manages to calm her down. Then he gropes her?! What? NO!
This isn't the way to land a joke. It's not funny considering she's obviously in mourning and it's very unconformable. There are a lot of jokes like this one in Dragon Ball and I'm usually fine with them, but here it's out of place and any other gag would've been better to lighten the mood. Her boyfriend just died!
“Cherry” on the top, it makes Yamcha's death in itself look like a jest. This guy really can't catch a break.

Episode 25: And since we're talking about deaths, Chiaotzu and Tenshinhan have a bit more dignified death scenes (Chiaotzu dies in episode 24, in case you didn't notice by watching only this one). Personally I don't like it took this long between the two, because it diminishes Tenshinahn's determination to stay with Chiaotzu. But what they added in is harmless, so it doesn't bother me too much... except... why is everybody using Shishin no Ken now? Why is Krilin using it? This makes no sense and it irritates me.
Best scene of the episode is Vegeta commenting on Piccolo's plan to attack Nappa. This is so good! Love this dialogue and how cool and smug Vegeta is. Plus the Furukawa/Horikawa duet is a gem.
Last and most important point for this week is for the closing minutes of the episode. It's just another of those moments I adore. You thought Nappa was strong? That he was the brawn? Nope! Vegeta is a one man show! The brain and the brawn.
I love Nappa's reaction when Vegeta raises his voice, ordering him to stand back. His expression, the dread on his face and the way he freezes in terror just tells you that Nappa is nothing in comparison to this little runt. And then you think that two of the good guys already sacrificed there lives without any result against him. Situation is simply getting worse and worse.

Entertainment Factor: This is the thing I have more problems with this week. Like I said when talking about episode 23, pacing has one of the biggest flaws of this arc: those stupid journalist!
So, ok... I have quite a few reasons I so baldly hate everything to do with them, but I won't list them all. Let's just stick to the main reason.
Why do we have to sit tough five minutes of these morons doing things we don't care about, followed by another ten of people reacting at every little detail at the Kame House, just to go back on the battlefield for only two seconds and then back to these nobodies?! WHY?!
Everytime they are on-screen I start rolling my eyes hoping it'll end quickly, but it never does. It's annoying, it's distracting and ruins the tension and the atmosphere.
I do understand the need to have a change of scenery every now and then, but why is the subplot overtaking the main story?
It's especially bad in episode 23 because there is seriously more time spent with these jokes than where the battle is. Not only that, but we also have our first death that becomes overshadowed by nothing important or even interesting. And if you want me to put salt on the wound may I remind you that this is Yamcha's final battle. We don't see him fighting anymore if you think about it, not where he is the main focus (he fights the Cell jr. but that is more like a brawl in a way).
In other words, Yamcha's last important moment and we didn't even see it!

Animation: This week was very nice. Action was great, even the one I complained about. But if I had to detract some points, Nappa and Tenshinhan's fight (episode 25) was very stiff and unappealing. And that is surprising considering it should be a Seigasha episode... I think (I've spotted Shimanuki so I'm guessing that's the case. Sorry, didn't have time to check myself, but if I'm wrong by all means correct me)

- Episode 21 marks a significant change of pace, introducing a jump in time to just before the Saiyans arrive. While a time-skip occurs in the manga, it doesn't have a reasonably-paced filler arc preceding it. Does this skip feel natural in conjunction with the anime's original content?

Honestly, it doesn't. This happened to me several times, if I haven't seen the series for a long time, but at this point I always wonder “Did I skip an episode?” then I remember that 21 has this weird start.
We go from a series of fillers, to Goku finally reaching Kaio, to an other filler to the main story were Goku is now ready to fight the saiyans.
I've mention it last week, but maybe have Goku start his training on Kaioken o Genkidama would've been better.

- A large number of characters die during this short span of episodes. Do they all carry the same weight, and if not, what makes one more effective than the other?

Characters in Dragon Ball die a lot, but it's not always the death itself that carries the scene. The aftermath that hits who is left behind can be just as powerful if not even more so.
The suffering of the people who loved that character and there reaction is as important. For example when Krilin dies on Namek is not his death that counts as much as Goku's reaction.
I've already talked about how I think Yamcha's death was badly handled. Between fillers that vandalize the moment and a very bad and unnecessary joke. I plan to add something later on about Bulma's reaction, so for now I think I've said everything.
Weirdly the one that has a more impactful death is Chiaotzu. Tenshinhan's suffering and his grief how it effects him losing his best friend is very strong, but maybe too much. We get it, Chiaotzu is dead and we do fell sorry for the both of you, but please stop whining. It drags on for a bit to long to the point were you almost have the opposite reaction hoping to move on.
And this creates an other problem, we spend too much focusing on Tenshinhan's mourning that when he dies there isn't enough time to even acknowledge it. He's dead, that's it, nobody cares.

[gaberparadiso]

Episode 23

General thoughts: again, STOP STALLING. I never liked the bad habit of interrupting the main fight with filler scenes, typical of DBZ. That's why I usually prefer Toriyama's original manga, which tends to use cutaways more rarely than the anime. In this case, I'm really torn about my judgment here, because while I like that they shown Puar and Bulma's reaction to Yamcha's death (which the manga didn't show), I simply loathe Chichi's drama, which drags out for way too long. DBZ anime flanderized both Chichi and Popo (though, the latter's will be more evident in ep. 37), for different reasons. Anyway, about Yamcha's death itself, IF we exclude memes... it is STILL a pretty dumb and anticlimatic death. There's no harm, no struggle. It just HAPPENS... Yamcha apparently defeated the Saibaman, but then the latter grabs him and blows itself up. That's it. Nonetheless, Krillin's reaction makes sense, much like Puar and Bulma's, and I also liked Piccolo telling Gohan to sense ki, since it's part of his training. Horikawa as Vegeta sounds much better than in the previous episode, in which he sounded a bit bored. Regardless, while I consider this a decent episode, my main complaint is about the action scenes and animation itself.

Entertainment factor: I couldn't fully enjoy this episode, because action scenes are short and get interrupted quite often.

Animation: while this may not be Ueda's best storyboarded episode, I kinda like how he builds up tension, especially before Tenshinhan "fights" the Saibaman. Regardless, in terms of visuals, it's kind of a letdown: this is Aoshima's second to last DBZ episode, and despite being a quite fast supervisor (even by animating episodes all by himself), this looks a bit rushed as a whole. We get a decent rotation early in the episode, https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/34237 but the outcome is not that great. I don't like characters often changing expressions through fade-out transitions, especially Vegeta, and I actually find the mainly conservative action scenes not that strong, as well. Tenshinhan vs Saibaman is clearly animated by Aoshima, and is a stiff and a bit weak fight. Whereas Yamcha vs Saibaman, whilst having slightly better action, looks generic and uninteresting. Even though uncredited Nakatsuru animates Yamcha's kick slide and his hair movement is kinda nice, the rest is a bit stiff and conventional. Spamming Zanzoken/teleport over and over again is not my favorite kind of fight. And speaking of uncredited staff, also Ebisawa (with maybe some other uncredited animators) takes part of this episode, providing key animation on Yamcha's death scene, which is just okay. https://twitter.com/DBanimators/status/ ... 1105311744

Music: okay, M809, M811, M815 and M817 make their debuts, and again, this BGM placement is mostly okay. As for Yamcha's death scene, I actually preferred Yamamoto's Requiem from DBKai in this case, because it worked much better as a sad song than Kikuchi's unreleased The Fallen, which falls into a bit sappy territory.

Overall thoughts: I expected something more, 6,5/10.

[Lord Beerus]

Episodes 21-25

Language: Japanese

General Thoughts: Goku’s training with King Kai is fantastic.

I love how Oolong proposes to make wish in the vein of taking care of the Saiyans. That’s good pragmatic thinking.

Despite training for a year with Kami and Mr Popo, when the Saiyans arrive, Tien says this, “Chiaotzu! You stay behind!” Ugh. What the point of Chiaotzu getting ready for the Saiyan if the initial intention made in-universe is for him to stay behind and no fight the opponents he was preparing for?

As much as Yamcha’s death is a pretty much a meme at this stage, it’s still an unexpected and tragic moment that sets the tone for the arc. And Krillin saddened and enraged reaction to it all, which was really taken to another level by Mayumi Tanaka’s performance, sells Yamcha’s death a truly a big deal. Bulma's tearful reaction and Puar fainting also adds to the solemnity of the death of Yamcha. Too bad Roshi had to kill the mood by rubbing Bulma's ass.

I’m conflicted about Chiaotzu killing himself. On one hand, it’s a sad moment that sets the tone for the major battle and rises the tension to an unprecedented level. But on the other hand, it’s moment that really feels like it is coming at the cost of the character itself. Chiaotzu did absolutely nothing in this fight other than die extremely prematurely. And this isn’t the first time this happened in the story up until this point either. I just can’t help but feel that Toriyama doesn’t know what to do with this character beyond being incapacitated almost immediately into battle.

Hirotaka Suzuoki’s performance as Tien, following the death of Chiaotzu, is sensational. You can really hear the anguish and anger in his voice from Tien losing Chiaotzu. Not to mention the desperation in his voice when he tries (in vain) to avenge Chiaotzu’s death by attacking Nappa.

Tien’s last Kikoho is his best. While it didn’t matter, it was still emotional.

Nappa has one hell of a presence. So much so that it frightens Gohan into attacking him. This building up of Nappa as a major wall for the cast to overcome, not only makes Goku’s later curb-stomp of him all the more satisfying, but also services in selling how much Goku’s training with King Kai made such a difference and makes Vegeta an even more intimidating obstacle.

Krillin: “Goku! Get here soon!” Yeah, the situation truly is that dire.

Nappa and Vegeta have really good chemistry.

Entertainment Factor: This is a sensational batch of episodes. It sets the stakes of the arc and reaches an emotional height that Dragon Ball hadn't reached before and doesn't reach afterwards (in my opinion).

Animation: Episode 21 had some really good animation with Goku training with King Kai. Tien's battle with Nappa had some stiff animation.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

#19-20 Generally fine episodes I think most people covered what I thought of them in the other thread as for the question about Joji Yanami's Kaio, feel like he balances the wise-ness and goofyness of Kaio very well, feels like FUNi unfortunately went too extreme on the goofyness nice of Kaio which makes moments when Kaio is serious feel kinda odd. But like I said Yanami brings that perfect balance to the character, I hope he is currently recovering well!


Preface- Watching via the Japanese language, most of the time however I will be referring to mostly dub names and terms they're just too ingrained and just easier for me to write. When talking about the JPN cast I will mostly be referring to their char names since I only ever watch anime dubbed so I am not similar at all with Japanese VA's beyond the big one's like Nozawa Horikawa etc.

#21

General Thoughts:

The final build up to the main event!

After what feels like forever we are almost here for the main event that had been teased since #5, we have to endure some shite along the way but also some good stuff too as an episode that was meant to the final build up I thought it did a great job. So Goku's training with Kaio is almost over (which I find ridiculous they wasted so much time elsewhere stretching needless crap yet it feels like we have breezed past this Kaio stuff) anyway the ultimate trump card the Spirit Dama hehe I am just gonna stick with Spirit Bomb (I think it is the best dub term they came up with sounds really cool and what you'd expect for a final trump card) it is nice to watch this episode and then something as recent as DBS #109 where Goku still says he was taught this by Kaio-sama (or was that the Kaioken? Either point still stands) still great after all these years Goku hasn't forgetten Kaio and what he taught him despite Goku taking him for granted a lot of time it still Goku's nature quite well anyway...

Goku is about to get wished back to life but then PROBLEM! Kaio "mis-calculated" and oh no Goku is gonna be late.... 'cuz we must have some tension while Goku is on his way. I'll be honest I am not gonna gripe on this as much as far as writing to make "tension" this is defiently the least problematic in the series, it is believable that people can make mistakes, but fair warning I am gonna go absolutely ham on some stuff that happens later on in the series....

Dragon is summoned. Of course he can't save the day, otherwise we'd have no entertainment! Goku gets wished back, new set of clothes and off he goes!

Saiyan's arrive... this was pretty well directed very tense and full of anticipation and then the land and come out the pods.... (I find it absolutely f**king hilarious that the crowd is shocked they are floating when we have literal ANIMAL people there that would be more shocking to me then some human looking aliens lmao) One bulky bold Saiyan and one skinny runt... must be the number 2 the big guy must be stronger... oh look the camera zooms into the one called "Nappa".... I see you Toei That was a pretty cool trick to add to the subversion well played.

Entertainment factor:

Did I play on my 3ds? X No. Therefore I was entertained! Very engaging full of atmosphere and anticipation did everything well what the final build up episode should so yeah good stuff.

Animation and other related technical aspects:

Gohan's red scratches looooooooked so odd not the best portrayal of battle damage other than that I don't have anything specific to say.

Music- Thought cheery music was played a bit too much in this type of episode like Goku on Kaio's planet before he heads back shouldn't be cheery it should have been full of dread as he he's gonna be late like is said I don't think he spend even time with Kaio like saying goodbye was supposed to be impactful y'know.

Japanese Cast

Nozawa continues to slay. Re: Kaio see above preface.

Overall score and thoughts:

The final build up episode to the the even that was promised as far back as #5 is a good one, it does everything it is supposed too however some minor stumbles along the way give it a solid 8/10.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Preface- Watching via the Japanese language, most of the time however I will be referring to mostly dub names and terms they're just too ingrained and just easier for me to write. When talking about the JPN cast I will mostly be referring to their char names since I only ever watch anime dubbed so I am not similar at all with Japanese VA's beyond the big one's like Nozawa Horikawa etc.

#22:

All the good faith from the last episode, gone. WHY CAN YOU NOT BE CONSISTENT Z?!?!

The episode started off so well, so godamn well... we got a short tease of the power capable of these Saiyans... it was like alright this is pretty cool can't wait to see what happens next.... then Yajirobe crap wasting SO MANY MINUTES! So godamn bored, just get to the bloody Saiyan stuff already THAT IS WHY WE ARE HERE!!!!!!!!!!! Eurgh.

Hours later we finally get somewhere Krillin joins up with Piccolo and Gohan and some fun banter ensues before the Saiyan's appear, and then we get some info dump on Piccolo's heritage and past but unlike Goku's this was handled poorly like it didn't seem like a big deal, very poorly directed and handled, more time wasting with Kami and then the most frustrating thing about the episode happens... Saibamem........ "these Saibamen will make you tell us about Dragon Balls"...... why is this an issue? Well if you wanna get information out of someone usually bad guys do it themselves, it shows the audience what the villains are about and shows they mean business but no we get this shitty looking Broccoli aliens oh no so scary. I f**king signed up for the Saiyans not a vegetable fight. A plot device to stretch out the fight.

Also the start of the "Goku hurry and get here, I wish Goku were here" crap that happens in Z frequently.

Entertainment factor:

None. Awful episode absolutely awful, bored out of my mind for a majority of it.

Animation and other related technical aspects:

Not much animation, some really ehh looking art (has to be Uchiyama so remiscnet) a messy SB this episode has everything against it.

Overall score and thoughts:

After such a great build up this episode is the very definition of anti-climactic, middle portion is dragged out nonsense and when despite stupid Saibaman thing when the episode finally is about to get going it ends, all the good faith of the previous episode wasted and leaves this episode with a score of 3/10. Awful start to the arrival.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Preface- Watching via the Japanese language, most of the time however I will be referring to mostly dub names and terms they're just too ingrained and just easier for me to write. When talking about the JPN cast I will mostly be referring to their char names since I only ever watch anime dubbed so I am not similar at all with Japanese VA's beyond the big one's like Nozawa Horikawa etc.

#23

General Thoughts:

A mixed bag.

So this Saibaman crap starts here. The first half of this episode is pretty bad, again this Yajirobe thing feels so out of place and stupid ruining the flow of the story so much. Tien is first up to bat and has a decent show, the Saibaman does bad and gets blown up by Vegeta (again showing the ruthless nature of these Saiyans so they f**k they are messing with some mutated broccoli us beyond me) and so it is exposited that these so called broccoli are as strong as Raditz via some power level figure. That is problem with power levels right there, we didn't need a figure to know how powerful Raditz was it was shown here it is like these guys are supposed to be strong cuz X number says. Show don't tell.

Kame house. Pretty ironic dialogue between Puar/Oolong and Bulma where they said after Yamcha defeats the Saiyans he and Bulma can get married.... that line made me crack up for obvious reasons.

Second half is where the good stuff is. Yamcha steps up, Mr. Meme himself to be fair he does really well but foolishly didn't check to see if the job was done and we got perhaps the most tense moment since the Raditz stuff at least when the Broccoli blows himself up and kills Yamcha in the mean time. I hate how that has become a meme because it is actually pretty emotional moment yet people have turned into a joke including even Toei. Sigh. This was the demonstration that this serious shit man. Krillin hopped on anger and emotion challenges next, NEP next episode looks fantastic hope it lives up.

Entertainment Factor:

A so so Part A but from Part B you are hooked and it is pretty tense and emotionally engaging stuff. Actually pretty excited for #24 but may safe it for tomorrow don't wanna get burned out.

Animation and other related technical aspects:

Some sweet sweet camera rotation in Part A, some fantastic and direction in Part B and a really good SB, action itself was decent. Really solid episode by all counts.

Japanese cast- Tien VA is very intense and I wasn't expecting it, certainly fits his demeanour more. Some pretty good acting overall near the end too. Horikawa is soooooooo good, I can't even tell this is same guy who voices modern Vegeta! Damn so intimidating.

Overall score and thoughts:

A sluggish episode is turned on it's end with an great Part B however an episode is 20 mins not 10 and so this episodes has to settle for a 6/10.

[gaberparadiso]

Episode 24

General thoughts: finally we get a DBZ episode without many interruptions. The whole Kame House section is relegated only at the beginning, much to our patience, so it doesn't bother that much in this case. On the contrary, among Bulma and Puar's grief, Kamesennin's calm attitude is actually more meaningful than you can imagine: by now even he knows death almost has no weight, that's why he thought about resurrecting him with the DBs. About his pervert attitude... I don't mind it. The rest of this episode is good and shows some really nice moments, like Piccolo's notions to Gohan, or some of the warriors' special moves, like Krillin's Expanding Energy Wave, Piccolo's Bakuretsu Makoho and Chaozu's self-destruction. Especially the latter, whilst being pretty useless, is a strong scene, because a weak character decides to sacrifice himself in order to kill the enemy. He even earned Piccolo's respect, which is kinda unexpected. Tenshinhan's grieving works well, too, and Suzuoki's performance is simply stellar. Sadly, Midorikawa will never be as good as him.

Entertainment factor: very few interruptions, but limited fight scenes. But as a whole, it's pretty enjoyable.

Animation: unfortunately, I was a bit disappointed by Kasai's storyboarding: it might not look that bad, but as a whole is kinda underwhelming. Having a solid storyboard is very important, as it can guarantee some furtherly solid action even without having great animation. However, I guess it was kinda clever to extend Nappa's power up sequence in order to mask the lack of long action scenes. Art-wise, Shindo's corrections are dominant, once again, so spotting key animators is quite a hard task.

Music: again, decent placement. Although, I might sound unpopular but... I hate Kikuchi's sad tracks, because they don't sound SOLEMN and TEAR-JERKING, but SAPPY and TEAR-JERKS. The Fallen and Tenshinhan Prepares To Kill Chaozu from movie 3 (played during Tenshinhan's grief, so good job?) are pretty tame as sad BGMs. I feel Yamamoto and Sumitomo composed far better sad tracks at this point.

Overall thoughts: 7,5/10. Enjoyable enough.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

How would everyone feel about throwing the movies in optionally during this rewatch? Movie 1 premiered during week 3 of our rewatch. If you want to add some comments about it in this thread, then by all means go ahead!

Ah man I'd love too but sadly with work back in full swing now the holiday period is over, I won't have the time, I have Thursday's off and Friday morning so I'm using those for the rewatch (well technically not off it's for study but since I only like studying at night so I treat them as a day off lol).

[gaberparadiso]

Episode 25

General thoughts: I wish I could like this episode better content-wise. On one hand, Tenshinhan's death is a strong scene, because it occurs in a respectable and dignified way. Suzuoki's voice acting is superb as always: I really like how he shouts "KIKOHO". And Nappa's fear after Vegeta gets mad at him for ignoring his order is another pretty interesting aspect, since it shows how despite their appearance, Vegeta is a lot stronger than Nappa. After all, he's worth 15 Raditz. Nonetheless, I have several problems with this episode. First off, the use of Multi-form: if this is the same technique Tenshinhan uses, it should have its same weakness, that is splitting the user's power into 1/4. Piccolo is an intelligent fighter who thinks up strategies, but this honestly makes no sense. Considering that Piccolo and Krillin are much weaker than Nappa, with the Multi-form, they'd get even weaker. Secondly, Gohan's attitude. I know he's 5, and his reaction is perfectly NORMAL. No doubt about it, it happened in the manga, too, so no problem about it. However, this reaction of his strongly clashes with all of the previous fillers involving Gohan: whatever happened to the robot's teaching? Or the laws of nature with dinosaurs? Nothing. At this precise point, Gohan doesn't show signs of change. He was scared before, and is still scared. This bit basically nullified the previous fillers.

Entertainment factor: much like the previous episode, there are only a few interruptions. Fight scenes are once again short and limited, but as a whole we can feel the cohesiveness of this episode, thanks to Nishio's direction.

Animation: speaking of Nishio, his storyboarding is great. I really enjoy those landscape cutaways before entering the main action, they instill some tension also thanks to Kikuchi's M806. Sadly, visual-wise, this is the only aspect which actually stands out. Seigasha is back after only 6 weeks, and we can definitely see why the action is conservative and doesn't look that convincing, overall. Of course, the better animated scenes come from the two gems of this studio, Shimanuki and Hisada, the latter of whom also animates Tenshinhan's last Kikoho against Nappa. https://twitter.com/DBanimators/status/ ... 8835748864 That aside, a lot of scenes are repeated, like footages of Goku flying above Serpent Road, and Misumi's Vegeta grinning, which looks so weird. https://twitter.com/DBanimators/status/ ... 6549187584 And the remaining fight segments look either stiff or poor, which shows how much Shimanuki and Hisada are necessary for Seigasha.

Music: while I like the use of M8** as a whole, the problem with Kikuchi's sad themes shows up, as well. Movie 3 Chaozu's theme is a grinding and kind of obnoxious track, and yeah... it may work for Tenshinhan's grief, but sounds so unpleasant at the same time. It doesn't sound solemnly sad, but sappily sad, and that's the main problem of most of Kikuchi's sad BGMs. Once again, DBKai made this scene a lot more justice with Requiem and Destiny, which actually sounded DRAMATIC. Also, M706, a cheerful theme, being used when Goku states he has a bad feeling... is just unnecessarily asinine.

Overall thoughts: this could've been a much better episode. 6,5/10.