"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[Nickolaidas]

Yeah, but #17 reaching SSB Goku's PL is bullshit!

Because ... because ... well JUST BECAUSE!!!

[HeroR]

Yeah, but #17 reaching SSB Goku's PL is bullshit!

Because ... because ... well JUST BECAUSE!!!

Well, 17 reaching a level that took Goku training with an angel to reach is out there and makes you wonder if he could have killed Golden Freeza in Resurrection 'F' if he wasn't so apathetic. Not sure how to feel about that.

But 17 isn't the worst power-up in the franchise. Gohan over night jump to god level is by far the worst of this saga, but no one seems to care because it's Gohan.

[supercat]

Android 17 reaching SSB-tier isn't odd nor farfetched in my opinion. This is a character who without a day of training started off with a power that far exceed not only the original Frieza (a being feared throughout the entire universe), but SSJ Goku as well. It seems pretty plausible to me for someone like that to reach SSB-tier. Plus, his training regimen was left rather ambiguous, so the whole "he can't be SSB-tier because all he did was fend off a bunch of nobodies" argument doesn't really support much. There could have been other aspects to his training that we're not aware of.

At the end of the day, Android 17 now has an ample amount of feats to support that he is SSB-tier.

-A suppressed Android 17 gave a suppressed SSB Goku a great battle. To what extent the two were suppressed is unknown, but Android 17's facial expressions strongly imply that he wasn't even close to full power.

-Aniraza's attack was pushing back five SSB-tier fighters, yet Android 17 was able to blitz through it after pushing it right back to Aniraza's face. The attack wasn't even budging until Android 17 began pushing it with his hands. If that's not an amazing feat I don't know what is.

-Android 17 was able to tangle with Toppo for a bit, whereas Gohan, even after sneaking up on Toppo was tossed aside like some joke.

-Android 17 was able to tank Gohan's Kamehameha without a scratch, even after the barrier was down about halfway through.

I also agree with the sentiments above. Gohan's power up was complete nonsense. If anyone gets an easy way out it's Gohan. Can't wait til he goes down .

[perucho1990]

Yeah, but #17 reaching SSB Goku's PL is bullshit!

Because ... because ... well JUST BECAUSE!!!

Well, 17 reaching a level that took Goku training with an angel to reach is out there and makes you wonder if he could have killed Golden Freeza in Resurrection 'F' if he wasn't so apathetic. Not sure how to feel about that.

But 17 isn't the worst power-up in the franchise. Gohan over night jump to god level is by far the worst of this saga, but no one seems to care because it's Gohan.

Gohan jump was = Mirai Trunks jump, both have the excuse of being hybrids.

Vegeta getting his ASSJB form or whatever is called is now logical after the growth both Gohan and Trunks had, they had to break their limits.

Piccolo even mentioned that Gohan could become stronger than regular Mystic form.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Namek's power inflation, at the very least, was measurable. We knew exactly how strong everyone was, how strong everyone got with training/power-ups/transformations, how they compared to each-other and so on. The ToP couldn't be any more arbitrary if it tried.

Such a fib, Vegeta zenkai boosts were so inconsistent and Freeza randoms percentages were measurable to you? The anime made it even worse.


The namek saga is known for when Dragon ball's power scale died.

Goku had the biggest BS power boost. How did he go form 90,000 without Kaioken to 3 million base after Vegeta hurt his body when Ginyu was controlling it. That's a biggest jumped than all of Goku's training from Earth to Namek, and that was six days. And Vegeta's beat down of Ginyu-Goku could barely be called near death. At least compared to Vegeta letting Krillin blow a hole in his chest.

It would be much better if all of this Goku power boost came from his training on the gravity machine.

Goku's training before arriving in Namek was insane.
He took his body to the limit, training for days at a gravity 100x greater than that of Earth, getting near death 4 times, to the point of needing to eat several Senzus not to die (consequently suffering several zenkals).

However, its power jumped from 8,000 to 90,000. It is a considerable thing, but the increase from 90,000 to 3 million with a single zenkai was much forced.

[perucho1990]

Some fans got mad because current ASSJB Vegeta is now stronger than Episode 110 UI Goku, who is now the biggest pile of overrated trash in DBS history.

[HeroR]

It would be much better if all of this Goku power boost came from his training on the gravity machine.

Goku's training before arriving in Namek was insane.
He took his body to the limit, training for days at a gravity 100x greater than that of Earth, getting near death 4 times, to the point of needing to eat several Senzus not to die (consequently suffering several zenkals).

However, its power jumped from 8,000 to 90,000. It is a considerable thing, but the increase from 90,000 to 3 million with a single zenkai was much forced.

It would have been better if Goku never arrived on Namek in the first place until the battle with Freeza started since Toriyama just wrote him out of the story again just a volume after he returned.

Some fans got mad because current ASSJB Vegeta is now stronger than Episode 110 UI Goku, who is now the biggest pile of overrated trash in DBS history.

How has Vegeta shown that he's stronger than 110 UI Goku? Vegeta so far has only been shown as even with Blue Kaioken Goku.

[perucho1990]

Because he is facing a stronger version of Jiren, episode 123 Jiren is stronger than TV Special Jiren, Belmod even said that Jiren is showing a bit of his true power.

Current Kaiokenx20 Goku is also stronger than Episode 110 UI Goku, as insane as it sounds.

The writers dont care about PL logic anymore, thats obvious. If there is a hiatus after the ToP, gotta clean house.

[Michsi]

Yeah, but #17 reaching SSB Goku's PL is bullshit!

Because ... because ... well JUST BECAUSE!!!

It's a little different with #17 because here we have a character that wasn't so much as a blip on anyone's radar since the Cell saga, and then in order to justify his return, had him be close to god level for practically no conceivable reason. With Goku and the saiyans things are more clear because you see their progression, regardless of whether or not the "math " checks out. They train with weights/gravity chambers non-stop, they reach new super saiyan levels, they meet and train with actual gods. 17 has infinite stamina on his side which could allow him to train endlessly, and that might be why he's is at least close to SSJ3, but nothing else about him can be used to explain such a high jump in power.

But as I said before, I don't think 17 is actually anywhere near the SSJB level, and the manga seems to support that.

But 17 isn't the worst power-up in the franchise. Gohan over night jump to god level is by far the worst of this saga, but no one seems to care because it's Gohan.

Hasn't he been training for like over a year?

[TheSaiyanGod]

It would be much better if all of this Goku power boost came from his training on the gravity machine.

Goku's training before arriving in Namek was insane.
He took his body to the limit, training for days at a gravity 100x greater than that of Earth, getting near death 4 times, to the point of needing to eat several Senzus not to die (consequently suffering several zenkals).

However, its power jumped from 8,000 to 90,000. It is a considerable thing, but the increase from 90,000 to 3 million with a single zenkai was much forced.

It would have been better if Goku never arrived on Namek in the first place until the battle with Freeza started since Toriyama just wrote him out of the story again just a volume after he returned.

Some fans got mad because current ASSJB Vegeta is now stronger than Episode 110 UI Goku, who is now the biggest pile of overrated trash in DBS history.

How has Vegeta shown that he's stronger than 110 UI Goku? Vegeta so far has only been shown as even with Blue Kaioken Goku.

The power of Jiren is actually very inconsistent in this arc, or else Goku and Vegeta became insanely strong after some battles.

Vermoud said he had not seen Jiren use so much power for some time, and yet Goku SSB was able to swap punches with him (Jiren was using even more power than fighting UI Goku).

After that, Goku SSB KK x20 and Vegeta can press and hit several hits on this Jiren.

[HeroR]

The power of Jiren is actually very inconsistent in this arc, or else Goku and Vegeta became insanely strong after some battles.

Vermoud said he had not seen Jiren use so much power for some time, and yet Goku SSB was able to swap punches with him (Jiren was using even more power than fighting UI Goku).

After that, Goku SSB KK x20 and Vegeta can press and hit several hits on this Jiren.

It isn't since Vegeta outright said he was stronger and faster against Goku. And the only reason that Goku and Vegeta pressed him is because they're teamwork was so wonky that he couldn't proper predict them.

Gohan jump was = Mirai Trunks jump, both have the excuse of being hybrids.

Vegeta getting his ASSJB form or whatever is called is now logical after the growth both Gohan and Trunks had, they had to break their limits.

Piccolo even mentioned that Gohan could become stronger than regular Mystic form.

Trunks got an actual new form which an unknown multiplier, while Gohan just got his Ultimate form after being strangled by Piccolo as a Super Saiyan 2.

[perucho1990]

The power of Jiren is actually very inconsistent in this arc, or else Goku and Vegeta became insanely strong after some battles.

Vermoud said he had not seen Jiren use so much power for some time, and yet Goku SSB was able to swap punches with him (Jiren was using even more power than fighting UI Goku).

After that, Goku SSB KK x20 and Vegeta can press and hit several hits on this Jiren.

Goku and Vegeta also became stronger the more they fought Black and Zamasu in the Trunks Arc. Remember when in their first meeting Goku and Mirai Zamasu were even and their 2nd fight Goku bitchslapped him? Or Vegeta going from being 1 shotted by Black in episode 56 to curbstomp him in episode 63?

[TheSaiyanGod]

The power of Jiren is actually very inconsistent in this arc, or else Goku and Vegeta became insanely strong after some battles.

Vermoud said he had not seen Jiren use so much power for some time, and yet Goku SSB was able to swap punches with him (Jiren was using even more power than fighting UI Goku).

After that, Goku SSB KK x20 and Vegeta can press and hit several hits on this Jiren.

It isn't since Vegeta outright said he was stronger and faster against Goku. And the only reason that Goku and Vegeta pressed him is because they're teamwork was so wonky that he couldn't proper predict them.

Vegeta said that on EP 122. In EP 123, Jiren further increases his power and Vermoud said that he had not seen Jiren use so much power in a long time.

That is, this power he did not use even against UI Goku. And even so, Goku SSB was able to exchange blows with him.
Later, Goku and Vegeta were able to press and hit punches on Jiren (even though their imperfect teamwork contributed)

[HeroR]

Goku and Vegeta also became stronger the more they fought Black and Zamasu in the Trunks Arc. Remember when in their first meeting Goku and Mirai Zamasu were even and their 2nd fight Goku bitchslapped him? Or Vegeta going from being 1 shotted by Black in episode 56 to curbstomp him in episode 63?

This is ignoring that in that same fight Goku noted that Future Zamasu kept dropping his guard and Zamasu was trying to rushed to help Black. Vegeta also trained for six months before fighting Black in 63.

Vegeta said that on EP 122. In EP 123, Jiren further increases his power and Vermoud said that he had not seen Jiren use so much power in a long time.

That is, this power he did not use even against UI Goku. And even so, Goku SSB was able to exchange blows with him.
Later, Goku and Vegeta were able to press and hit punches on Jiren (even though their imperfect teamwork contributed)

You mean the same Jiren who scared Goku out of Blue, something he never did in 109 or 110? And Vermoud was shitty himself against UI Goku and said he didn't believe anyone could pushed Jiren to that extent.

And again, it was noted that Jiren was out balance by the crappy teamwork. Nothing about him being overwhelmed by power.

[supercat]

Future Zamasu also briefly tangled with SSB Goku again right before SSB Vegeta utterly humiliated Goku Black. Future Zamasu being SSB-tier is rather likely given feats and going off of Goku commenting on Zamasu's potential to surpass Beerus.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Vegeta said that on EP 122. In EP 123, Jiren further increases his power and Vermoud said that he had not seen Jiren use so much power in a long time.

That is, this power he did not use even against UI Goku. And even so, Goku SSB was able to exchange blows with him.
Later, Goku and Vegeta were able to press and hit punches on Jiren (even though their imperfect teamwork contributed)

You mean the same Jiren who scared Goku out of Blue, something he never did in 109 or 110? And Vermoud was shitty himself against UI Goku and said he didn't believe anyone could pushed Jiren to that extent.

And again, it was noted that Jiren was out balance by the crappy teamwork. Nothing about him being overwhelmed by power.

Probably Vermoud just did not imagine that in the tournament there would be someone to rival Jiren.
But still, Jiren was restrained against UI Goku (who was also evolving during the battle).

Now, Vermoud claims that Jiren used a power he had not seen for a long time, that is, even greater than against UI Goku. And as I said, Goku SSB was able to rival him, Jiren even used a sample of his true power.

And if SSB Goku manages to rival with powered up Jiren, then SSB KK x20 could do better and we saw that Vegeta with the new Blue fought at the same pace as Goku. He even forced Jiren to use that punch to defend a Ki Blast (the same punch used in Goku before)

[HeroR]

Probably Vermoud just did not imagine that in the tournament there would be someone to rival Jiren.
But still, Jiren was restrained against UI Goku (who was also evolving during the battle).

Now, Vermoud claims that Jiren used a power he had not seen for a long time, that is, even greater than against UI Goku. And as I said, Goku SSB was able to rival him, Jiren even used a sample of his true power.

And if SSB Goku manages to rival with powered up Jiren, then SSB KK x20 could do better and we saw that Vegeta with the new Blue fought at the same pace as Goku. He even forced Jiren to use that punch to defend a Ki Blast (the same punch used in Goku before)

He said he hasn't seen Jiren like that in a long time, nothing about his actual power. Goku didn't even rival him, just depended some punches.

Again, sloppy teamwork thrown Jiren off. No one claimed that Goku and Vegeta bridged the power gap.

[YamiGoku]

I think you guys are forgeting that on the first appearance of UI, Goku didnt even know what was happening to him.even when he was fighting kefla, she was laughing at how weak the first attack of UI was, and Goku said he was learning how UI works.

Goku didn't know how to use the attack part of UI on Jiren, but SSB Goku and Vegeta, while not as strong as UI, are used to SSB and SSBkk ( even the new Vegeta form is a more powerfull SSB), and they can fight to their limits and even further beyond.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Probably Vermoud just did not imagine that in the tournament there would be someone to rival Jiren.
But still, Jiren was restrained against UI Goku (who was also evolving during the battle).

Now, Vermoud claims that Jiren used a power he had not seen for a long time, that is, even greater than against UI Goku. And as I said, Goku SSB was able to rival him, Jiren even used a sample of his true power.

And if SSB Goku manages to rival with powered up Jiren, then SSB KK x20 could do better and we saw that Vegeta with the new Blue fought at the same pace as Goku. He even forced Jiren to use that punch to defend a Ki Blast (the same punch used in Goku before)

He said he hasn't seen Jiren like that in a long time, nothing about his actual power. Goku didn't even rival him, just depended some punches.

Again, sloppy teamwork thrown Jiren off. No one claimed that Goku and Vegeta bridged the power gap.

Vermoud said that Jiren '' finally '' showed a '' hint '' of his true power, meaning he had not done it before.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

And as I said, even before that, Vermoud had long since not seen Jiren release so much power.

Goku SSB was not at the same level of powered up Jiren, but managed to trade punches for quite a while. Before, an even more restrained Jiren easily destroyed SSB Goku, and now Goku SSB manages to trade punches with an even more powerful Jiren than before.

And even though the imperfect teamwork of Goku and Vegeta has pressured Jiren, it does not change the fact that they had the strength to do so. After all, a Vegeta Ki blast forced Jiren to use his '' punch '', which a short time ago would defeat SSB Goku and made Goku return to his base form of fear

[Zamasu55]

Yeah, but #17 reaching SSB Goku's PL is bullshit!

Because ... because ... well JUST BECAUSE!!!

This has to be a joke.