Trunks SSRage Vs Vegeta Beyond Blue - What is the reason for this comparison?

[TheSaiyanGod]

Well, Vegeta's new transformation has been getting hatred, and some people even compare the context of this transformation with the context of Trunks' SSJ Rage transformation.
But why do they compare? Vegeta's new form felt a little rushed and appeared abruptly, yes. But it does not even compare to the transformation of Trunks

Trunks' transformation into SSJ Rage really was TOTALLY sudden.
He had no training whatsoever to reach a divine level, he gave no indication that he would get a new transformation, we had ABSOLUTELY no explanation for his new transformation, And he received a power up of probably much more than 20x (Basically, he achieved a power similar to Blue without any explanation)

Vegeta has almost 3 whole sagas with only Blue, even training hard. He trained in RoSaT before going to the tournament (actually everyone expected him to show something new from that training), his motivation to reach this new form is being shown from the beginning of the tournament. That is his desire to get the SDB and his other motivation was the promise with Kyabe, shown in EP 112 (that is, it has been worked on several episodes)
In the preview of EP 123 it had already been stated that it would get a new shape, a recent synopsis indicated that (in the case of Trunks, not even the preview indicated something), then we already knew that would happen.

Yes, it was also sudden, but you can not compare. Daishinkan, Piccolo and Kuririn still explained a bit about Vegeta's new form.
With Trunks none of this happened.

Edit: Another example unrelated to the transformation of Trunks is the Kaioken.

All this difference of power between Goku and Vegeta happened because of the Kaioken.
Kaioken did not get any promotion at all, so much so that everyone was surprised when Goku combined SSB and Kaioken in the Champa tournament. Why do not people complain about it?
We had a brief explanation for the SSB + KK just as we had a brief explanation for Vegeta's new form.

any people even thought that SSB Kaioken would no longer be used by Goku, after all this caused a kind of Ki-related disease and hurt him. SSB Kaioken was a long time off screen and only returned later (and probably not a creation of Toriyama). TOEI is probably just trying to lessen that difference in strength between Goku and Vegeta because of it.

[ToshioWrites]

People complaining about "contrived powerups" in this franchise will never make sense to me.

Trunks Rage form was fine, He needed to be relevant in his own damn arc and he wasn't gonna be in the main cast so there's no consequences for his power

Vegeta new form is probably Toei being told by Toriyama via his outline that Goku and Vegeta are to be equals in power with the only gap being UI. Kaioken x20 is not a toriyama thing so they had to give Vegeta something to close that gap and hey it looks cool, will sell merchandise and he finally gets a new form in the middle of an arc.

Not to mention this franchise and especially Z and Super have had plenty of "out of nowhere" powerups before and now its Vegeta turn

[SupremeKai25]

Trunks Rage form was fine, He needed to be relevant in his own damn arc

He could have still been relevant. In the manga, he didn't have Super Saiyan Rage, yet he still played a key role when he used his healing powers as Future Shin's apprentice to heal Mai, Gowasu, Goku and Vegeta.

And besides, Trunks didn't destroy Zamasu, so in the end they hyped Super Saiyan Rage Trunks so much and he couldn't even beat the main villain of the arc.

[CJStriker_CBR]

Well, Vegeta's new transformation has been getting hatred, and some people even compare the context of this transformation with the context of Trunks' SSJ Rage transformation.
But why do they compare? Vegeta's new form felt a little rushed and appeared abruptly, yes. But it does not even compare to the transformation of Trunks

Trunks' transformation into SSJ Rage really was TOTALLY sudden.
He had no training whatsoever to reach a divine level, he gave no indication that he would get a new transformation, we had ABSOLUTELY no explanation for his new transformation, And he received a power up of probably much more than 20x (Basically, he achieved a power similar to Blue without any explanation)

Vegeta has almost 3 whole sagas with only Blue, even training hard. He trained in RoSaT before going to the tournament (actually everyone expected him to show something new from that training), his motivation to reach this new form is being shown from the beginning of the tournament. That is his desire to get the SDB and his other motivation was the promise with Kyabe, shown in EP 112 (that is, it has been worked on several episodes)
In the preview of EP 123 it had already been stated that it would get a new shape, a recent synopsis indicated that (in the case of Trunks, not even the preview indicated something), then we already knew that would happen.

Yes, it was also sudden, but you can not compare. Daishinkan, Piccolo and Kuririn still explained a bit about Vegeta's new form.
With Trunks none of this happened.

I don't know much about the controversy around the Rage form but Really the New Vegeta Blue form whether you call it SSJ-2 Blue or Royal Blue or Beyond Blue, really if anyone examines Vegeta well enough, a new form for him was going to be coming sooner or later and honestly I am Pretty Please with this one.

Like you said TheSaiyanGod, if You follow Vegeta's path and how he has trained up till point now, it makes sense that a New form was coming and I like the fact it is connected to Blue cause by what I know Vegeta's focus he was working on Making Himself better both in base form and making his Blue Form better then Goku was.

The Video Below helped me Iron this out and I Greatly Recommend it TheSaiyanGod for backing-up your points as well;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_0VYkDAhjY&t=508s


A Perfected From of Blue short of Like how SSJ-2 was the Advanced and More Mastered form of SSJ-1 makes a good deal of sense with all that Vegeta has been threw to break those limits by focusing on Blue allot. Finally, I like the Factor that to break it Vegeta had to do it not just for himself but for others Like Cabba to keep his promise, he broke is limits cause of his caring for others, I really enjoyed that as a Fan of the Greatest Power a Warrior can have is when you fight for others.

[Lord Beerus]

Honestly, I've really stopped caring that much for scenarios like this. If there's one thing I've learned about Dragon Ball is that if the plot needs to move forward in a certain fashion, regardless of the unfortunate implications created due to their supposed illogical foundations and/or inconsistencies, then there will be unique narrative directions taken.

[precita]

Any character screaming at any time will give them a power up.

[Asura]

Both forms came out of nowhere, without any real explanation as to what it is, or a name for it. The whole arc has centered around Goku and Ultra Instinct, so this form doesn’t feel like it has a place here. It’s just a way for Vegeta to keep up with Goku, just like it was a way for Trunks to keep up with Goku and Vegeta. They keep writing themselves into corners with making one character stronger than another when they want them to both appear as near equals.

Rage was handled much much worse than this new form, but this one was still handled pretty poorly and suffers from some of the same things that plague the Rage transformation. We don’t need every character to have their own unique transformation. It should have stopped at Gohan with his Ultimate form.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Both forms came out of nowhere, without any real explanation as to what it is, or a name for it. The whole arc has centered around Goku and Ultra Instinct, so this form doesn’t feel like it has a place here. It’s just a way for Vegeta to keep up with Goku, just like it was a way for Trunks to keep up with Goku and Vegeta. They keep writing themselves into corners with making one character stronger than another when they want them to both appear as near equals.

Rage was handled much much worse than this new form, but this one was still handled pretty poorly and suffers from some of the same things that plague the Rage transformation. We don’t need every character to have their own unique transformation. It should have stopped at Gohan with his Ultimate form.

The fact that the saga was centered on the UI does not mean that Vegeta can not get his own transformation (not necessarily as important as UI) to match Goku. After all, all this difference of power between Goku and Vegeta happened because of the Kaioken.

Also, Kaioken did not get any promotion at all, so much so that everyone was surprised when Goku combined SSB and Kaioken in the Champa tournament. Why do not people complain about it?
We had a brief explanation for the SSB + KK just as we had a brief explanation for Vegeta's new form.

Many people even thought that SSB Kaioken would no longer be used by Goku, after all this caused a kind of Ki-related disease and hurt him. SSB Kaioken was a long time off screen and only returned later (and probably not a creation of Toriyama). Why people do not complain about it either?

[sintzu]

A major difference between Vegeta and Trunks is that Vegeta's "new" form seems to be him getting more power out of expanding his mucsles which worked for him against Cell so it makes sense to see him do it again here. Trunks on the other hand can now somehow power up to the level of a SsjB just because.

In terms of why they're doing it, it's to close the gap between him and Goku's kaioken as Toei clearly didn't take into account Toriyama writing a fight with Goku and Vegeta being equals.

[dbs fanboy]

I think that's really nice that Vegeta gets his own form, i mean, when UI made it's debut, i used to talk with a friend about how cool would it be if Vegeta got something different so then each Saiyan individual could have their own special power, (Gohan with Ultimate Gohan, Goku with UI, FT Trunks with rage..... etc) but it's still not really that different from the form that made a lot of people mad during the Goku Black arc, the only difference is that it's presence is somehow much more acknowledged in universe.

Hell, even if the form itself shows Vegeta's great character development, ikari is much more meaningful (for all the shit that Trunks had been throught, plus him getting blamed for it)

[BlueBasilisk]

In terms of why they're doing it, it's to close the gap between him and Goku's kaioken as Toei clearly didn't take into account Toriyama writing a fight with Goku and Vegeta being equals.

Toyotaro and Toei would both have the arc outline before they begin writing so they'd know well in advance whether Goku and Vegeta would need to be equals for plot purposes or not. Toyotaro created the same disparity in the Future Trunk arc by giving Goku Mastered SSB, then equalized them by giving it to Vegeta off-page at the beginning of the arc. What Toei did with this form ultimately amounts to the same thing, they just saved it for a dramatic moment near the end of the arc and chose to give Goku and Vegeta unique forms vs having the same one. Both adaptations seem to have a lot of free rein to create power-ups for Goku and Vegeta, they just realize them at different times and in different ways.

[MozillaVulpix]

Because they're both new power-ups that were introduced without names, with appearances that look like a halfway step between their strongest form and the strongest Saiyan form at the moment, and no prior indication that a distinct visible power-up could even be obtained in those forms without going the next step up the Saiyan transformation tree. Plus, they're both presented as less a significant transformation that will alter the tide of a battle and more a justification as to why the previously-weaker character is now fighting on par with the stronger characters. Also, their appearances are so similar to the previous form, it feels unlikely they're going to be included in the manga version. Simply because it'd be difficult to make it look like a big power-up if they barely change in black-and-white.

I think there's a lot of comparison to make there.

[Kataphrut]

I like the principle of Vegeta getting a unique form and finally going off the path beaten by Goku. I just think this was the wrong time and place for it. The arc was already long enough, and Vegeta's second wind isn't going to make much of a difference against Jiren. Plus, after how good Ultra Instinct was, this new form being "Super Saiyan Blue but shinier" is a total comedown.

Trunks' Rage form at least got the timing right. It came out at a moment of high tension and drama, where Trunks was beaten down and pushed to his limits. Vegeta's new form would have been better off going at the end of last episode or the beginning of this one, right after Jiren humiliates him. Instead he just kind of lies there for the whole episode before chiming in with some token development right at the end.

[Asura]

Both forms came out of nowhere, without any real explanation as to what it is, or a name for it. The whole arc has centered around Goku and Ultra Instinct, so this form doesn’t feel like it has a place here. It’s just a way for Vegeta to keep up with Goku, just like it was a way for Trunks to keep up with Goku and Vegeta. They keep writing themselves into corners with making one character stronger than another when they want them to both appear as near equals.

Rage was handled much much worse than this new form, but this one was still handled pretty poorly and suffers from some of the same things that plague the Rage transformation. We don’t need every character to have their own unique transformation. It should have stopped at Gohan with his Ultimate form.

The fact that the saga was centered on the UI does not mean that Vegeta can not get his own transformation (not necessarily as important as UI) to match Goku. After all, all this difference of power between Goku and Vegeta happened because of the Kaioken.

Also, Kaioken did not get any promotion at all, so much so that everyone was surprised when Goku combined SSB and Kaioken in the Champa tournament. Why do not people complain about it?
We had a brief explanation for the SSB + KK just as we had a brief explanation for Vegeta's new form.

Many people even thought that SSB Kaioken would no longer be used by Goku, after all this caused a kind of Ki-related disease and hurt him. SSB Kaioken was a long time off screen and only returned later (and probably not a creation of Toriyama). Why people do not complain about it either?

The Kaioken comparison doesn’t work at all. Goku already knew Kaioken, we know what Kaioken is too. It wasn’t something that came out of nowhere without any explanation or name for the form.

[OLKv3]

Because they both came out of nowhere with no real explanation or build up besides "I need to get stronger right now"
Trunks was angry over Zamasu and Black mocking him, and achieved a new form
Vegeta decided he couldn't lose to Jiren, and gained a new form
Hell Goku gaining Ultra Instinct is also pretty much the same scenario, but that at least was discussed back in RoF
But for some reason, only Trunks gets the hate.
They're both pretty much the same, and different from previous transformations in the series. It's just the DBS way of doing things.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Because they're both new power-ups that were introduced without names, with appearances that look like a halfway step between their strongest form and the strongest Saiyan form at the moment, and no prior indication that a distinct visible power-up could even be obtained in those forms without going the next step up the Saiyan transformation tree. Plus, they're both presented as less a significant transformation that will alter the tide of a battle and more a justification as to why the previously-weaker character is now fighting on par with the stronger characters. Also, their appearances are so similar to the previous form, it feels unlikely they're going to be included in the manga version. Simply because it'd be difficult to make it look like a big power-up if they barely change in black-and-white.

I think there's a lot of comparison to make there.

SSJ2 also did not receive name in the saga Cell. In fact, this form was only really introduced at the end of the saga, when Goku talks about Gohan's potential. Because most of the time, Gohan was totally irrelevant and Goku did not even say anything about it.

In Saga Boo, the SSJ3 only received this name for convenience, since this was a form above SSJ2 (which was only named after Goku).
This form appeared suddenly too.
So not getting a name does not mean a lot.

And the point is that the only reason to give the SSJ Rage to Trunks was to match him to Goku and Vegeta.
But Trunks did not have adequate training to get to that level, he never gave clues to get a new transformation, and was given no explanation as to what form was (unlike Vegeta). And we do not know what that form really is in the '' Saiyans transformation tree ''.

In the case of Vegeta's new form, it was made clear that it was a level far above the SSB, related to the fact that the vegetation '' broken the wall '', just as UI Goku did.

And well, the new transformation of Vegeta, next to SSB KK x20 Goku is being able to press Jiren and it is even quoted that the chance of victory '' appeared. ''
So there are cases you can not compare, the new form of Vegeta felt rushed, but not as much as SSJ Rage, after all the '' new SSB '' at least had some promotion before appearing

Both forms came out of nowhere, without any real explanation as to what it is, or a name for it. The whole arc has centered around Goku and Ultra Instinct, so this form doesn’t feel like it has a place here. It’s just a way for Vegeta to keep up with Goku, just like it was a way for Trunks to keep up with Goku and Vegeta. They keep writing themselves into corners with making one character stronger than another when they want them to both appear as near equals.

Rage was handled much much worse than this new form, but this one was still handled pretty poorly and suffers from some of the same things that plague the Rage transformation. We don’t need every character to have their own unique transformation. It should have stopped at Gohan with his Ultimate form.

The fact that the saga was centered on the UI does not mean that Vegeta can not get his own transformation (not necessarily as important as UI) to match Goku. After all, all this difference of power between Goku and Vegeta happened because of the Kaioken.

Also, Kaioken did not get any promotion at all, so much so that everyone was surprised when Goku combined SSB and Kaioken in the Champa tournament. Why do not people complain about it?
We had a brief explanation for the SSB + KK just as we had a brief explanation for Vegeta's new form.

Many people even thought that SSB Kaioken would no longer be used by Goku, after all this caused a kind of Ki-related disease and hurt him. SSB Kaioken was a long time off screen and only returned later (and probably not a creation of Toriyama). Why people do not complain about it either?

The Kaioken comparison doesn’t work at all. Goku already knew Kaioken, we know what Kaioken is too. It wasn’t something that came out of nowhere without any explanation or name for the form.

SSJ2 also had no name (only Goku called SSJ2 in DBZ). Even SSJ3 was a name given only for convenience. Not having a name does not mean much.
Well, I explained in the above comment

And I'm talking about the SSB combined with the Kaioken. This is a form that was introduced suddenly, and that directly impacted the narrative of the story, since it created a great difference of powers between Goku and Vegeta and all the other warriors (what I doubt it was in the script of Toriyama), and it probably took until the power of some villains was reshaped to match Goku in that state.
Even the power of Beerus in relation to Goku / Vegeta was totally confused after the Kaioken was introduced. It's like saying he used 0.00001% power or something small in the fight against Goku SSG, which does not make sense.

Anyway, he also felt somewhat rushed and sudden, and he created several unnecessary confusions the story, but that even so did not complain.

[Kaiosama]

Well, Vegeta's new transformation has been getting hatred, and some people even compare the context of this transformation with the context of Trunks' SSJ Rage transformation.
But why do they compare? Vegeta's new form felt a little rushed and appeared abruptly, yes. But it does not even compare to the transformation of Trunks

Trunks' transformation into SSJ Rage really was TOTALLY sudden.
He had no training whatsoever to reach a divine level, he gave no indication that he would get a new transformation, we had ABSOLUTELY no explanation for his new transformation, And he received a power up of probably much more than 20x (Basically, he achieved a power similar to Blue without any explanation)

Vegeta has almost 3 whole sagas with only Blue, even training hard. He trained in RoSaT before going to the tournament (actually everyone expected him to show something new from that training), his motivation to reach this new form is being shown from the beginning of the tournament. That is his desire to get the SDB and his other motivation was the promise with Kyabe, shown in EP 112 (that is, it has been worked on several episodes)
In the preview of EP 123 it had already been stated that it would get a new shape, a recent synopsis indicated that (in the case of Trunks, not even the preview indicated something), then we already knew that would happen.

Yes, it was also sudden, but you can not compare. Daishinkan, Piccolo and Kuririn still explained a bit about Vegeta's new form.
With Trunks none of this happened.

Edit: Another example unrelated to the transformation of Trunks is the Kaioken.

All this difference of power between Goku and Vegeta happened because of the Kaioken.
Kaioken did not get any promotion at all, so much so that everyone was surprised when Goku combined SSB and Kaioken in the Champa tournament. Why do not people complain about it?
We had a brief explanation for the SSB + KK just as we had a brief explanation for Vegeta's new form.

any people even thought that SSB Kaioken would no longer be used by Goku, after all this caused a kind of Ki-related disease and hurt him. SSB Kaioken was a long time off screen and only returned later (and probably not a creation of Toriyama). TOEI is probably just trying to lessen that difference in strength between Goku and Vegeta because of it.

Because both forms came out of nowhere and feel forced in order to make both characters more relevant power-wise. Vegeta was significantly weaker than Goku before he got this transformation (much like Trunks was compared to Goku and Vegeta) and this transformation allows him to fight on par with KKX20 Goku. Once Goku is able to master UI and access it at will, the gap between the two will be significant once again (as it should be). This is just a contrived plot device because of what's going on with Jiren right now. It also appeases Trunks and Vegeta fans and will help sell more merch. Knowing this makes it even more annoying IMO

[TheSaiyanGod]

Well, Vegeta's new transformation has been getting hatred, and some people even compare the context of this transformation with the context of Trunks' SSJ Rage transformation.
But why do they compare? Vegeta's new form felt a little rushed and appeared abruptly, yes. But it does not even compare to the transformation of Trunks

Trunks' transformation into SSJ Rage really was TOTALLY sudden.
He had no training whatsoever to reach a divine level, he gave no indication that he would get a new transformation, we had ABSOLUTELY no explanation for his new transformation, And he received a power up of probably much more than 20x (Basically, he achieved a power similar to Blue without any explanation)
Vegeta has almost 3 whole sagas with only Blue, even training hard. He trained in RoSaT before going to the tournament (actually everyone expected him to show something new from that training), his motivation to reach this new form is being shown from the beginning of the tournament. That is his desire to get the SDB and his other motivation was the promise with Kyabe, shown in EP 112 (that is, it has been worked on several episodes)
In the preview of EP 123 it had already been stated that it would get a new shape, a recent synopsis indicated that (in the case of Trunks, not even the preview indicated something), then we already knew that would happen.

Yes, it was also sudden, but you can not compare. Daishinkan, Piccolo and Kuririn still explained a bit about Vegeta's new form.
With Trunks none of this happened.

Edit: Another example unrelated to the transformation of Trunks is the Kaioken.

All this difference of power between Goku and Vegeta happened because of the Kaioken.
Kaioken did not get any promotion at all, so much so that everyone was surprised when Goku combined SSB and Kaioken in the Champa tournament. Why do not people complain about it?
We had a brief explanation for the SSB + KK just as we had a brief explanation for Vegeta's new form.

any people even thought that SSB Kaioken would no longer be used by Goku, after all this caused a kind of Ki-related disease and hurt him. SSB Kaioken was a long time off screen and only returned later (and probably not a creation of Toriyama). TOEI is probably just trying to lessen that difference in strength between Goku and Vegeta because of it.

Because both forms came out of nowhere and feel forced in order to make both characters more relevant power-wise. Vegeta was significantly weaker than Goku before he got this transformation (much like Trunks was compared to Goku and Vegeta) and this transformation allows him to fight on par with KKX20 Goku. Once Goku is able to master UI and access it at will, the gap between the two will be significant once again (as it should be). This is just a contrived plot device because of what's going on with Jiren right now. It also appeases Trunks and Vegeta fans and will help sell more merch. Knowing this makes it even more annoying IMO

Why forced? you could say that this would not be the best time to present the transformation, but Vegeta has been training enough for years (basically, almost 3 whole sagas after getting Blue), so he's certainly already able to get a power up at that level.
It would be forced if it were a power up that was not commensurate with the potential of the character or his level of training, as was the case with Trunks (potential he had, not training)
Basically, all this was because TOEI wanted to invent the Blue Kaioken and generate even more confusion in the power scale (Blue Kaioken itself also came out of nowhere but you're not complaining)

And you say '' Goku will dominate the UI and continue superior ''. Now, it just seems to me that you are unable to accept that Vegeta can get a power up and wants at all costs that Goku is untouchable.

Some Goku fans are totally annoying because they are not able to argue normally. Other users who disagreed with me at least showed some arguments.

[BWri]

Between Vegeta and Trunks, their two forms are bad in two very different ways. Trunks' is actually good in many ways.

With Trunks' SSJ Ikari, the only problem with it was it had no explanation whatsoever in the narrative and no one seemed curious about it so it's like it didn't exist. But Trunks' motivations for attaining the form were probably the most logical and emotionally compelling reasons that anyone in DBS has attained a new form. It was just disappointing because we can see that it was mostly a marketing stunt to sell Trunks toys and DLC and increase his popularity. Toei had a ton of ways they could've used to explain it, could've been a Demi-God form because Trunks was part human or had partial god ki, he could've somehow gotten the remnants of god ki from his brief training with Vegeta and his fights with SSR Goku Black. But they chose to explain it as a rage form inside of a video game. That's like two writing sins in one.

With Vegeta's form, unlike Trunks', the emotional payoff was flat and it had no proper buildup. Vegeta's been flipflopping on powerups for the last few episodes. First he's all like, "Imma get Ultra Whatever now that Kakarott has it" and he fails, then he gets a powerup based on his pride which seemed contrived because when has Vegeta ever gotten a power up based on that infinite pride of his before. And now we have this new form because Vegeta wants something based on his personality???, that also has no name and a hackneyed explanation. They should've just focused on one transformation and his motivation should've been clear this whole time. Instead, it all comes out of left field and feels inconsequential anyway, something to sell DLC and appease rabid Vegeta fans. If it has a big impact on the story, I'll eat my words. I just don't think it'll matter since we're leading up to UI Goku vs. Jiren anyway.

My criticism of Vegeta's form is it looks like its a bunch of distinct concepts thrown together and it shares that with Trunks form. For both, Toei just used a grab bag of traits from previous Super Saiyan forms. With Trunks it was, put him in his SSJ2 form, bulk him up like SSJ Grade 2, give him pupil-less eyes like when he first transformed into SSJ Grade 3, and him his SSJ2 aura but have god ki run through it as well. For Trunks it worked and for me personally, was visually appealing at least, and it had the classic emotional breakdown that felt satisfying. Now for Vegeta he had SSB as a base then got SSJ Grade 2 levels of buff (in some shots at least), got blue UI looking eyes with pupils, and random glitter in his aura. It's a personal preference, but I just don't think it looks good especially for Vegeta. I dig the darker blue hair but that's it.

As far as Goku and Kaioken goes. Well, KK's always been there and many of us fans have been wondering why Goku never used KK, a power multiplying technique, on top of Super Saiyan, a power multiplying transformation. What was satisfying about it was he got several explanations these things, such as why KK can't stack on top of the normal SSJ transformations, and why KK does work with SSB. And Kaioken has been around forever, so it's not an asspull, it's just a question of "why have you never used this before," and they explained it well, for once. If only they went into that amount of detail for Vegeta and Trunks' transformations. Maybe they'd make some sense. The only explanation for Vegeta's power was "He broke through his shell." "His power feels infinite." "I want to keep my promise to Cabba." Which equates to, "He broke through his limits, in order to keep his promise to Cabba and now his power is spectacular." Piccolo saying his power felt infinite or whatever is just pointless hype. As a matter of fact the whole reasoning for his transformation and the transformation itself feels like pointless hype.

Now, the last thing I want to say is that I love Vegeta in the manga. He's never that far behind Goku and is a true rival to him. That power dynamic between the two keeps the rivalry interesting, which the anime kinda ruined with SSBKK. And I like the LOGIC behind Mastered SSB. It's the culmination of what Whis initially taught them about God Ki and feels so much like classic Dragon Ball to me.

For me to accept Vegeta's anime power up, it just has to feel special and like it came from a real place inside of Vegeta, not just because he needed it to advance the plot or sell some more toys. While I do think Vegeta cares for Cabba, I never got the sense that he cared about him so much that it would push him to transform. They never built that relationship. And moments like that undermine previous episodes as well. It makes you think, why didn't Vegeta go SSJ2 when Cell killed Trunks? Super often uses emotional moments they haven't properly built up to make characters transform and it just feels flat.

With Ikari Trunks, the rage, hopelessness, and pent up anger was at least palpable and you felt Trunks was ready to snap at the hypocritical condemnations of the evil god that just wiped out this world that Trunks was desperately trying to rebuild and protect. That's one hell of a motivation. With Vegeta it's about a kid he kinda liked got erased and he wants to wish him back and that pushes him past his limits somehow. My two cents anyway.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Between Vegeta and Trunks, their two forms are bad in two very different ways. Trunks' is actually good in many ways.

With Trunks' SSJ Ikari, the only problem with it was it had no explanation whatsoever in the narrative and no one seemed curious about it so it's like it didn't exist. But Trunks' motivations for attaining the form were probably the most logical and emotionally compelling reasons that anyone in DBS has attained a new form. It was just disappointing because we can see that it was mostly a marketing stunt to sell Trunks toys and DLC and increase his popularity. Toei had a ton of ways they could've used to explain it, could've been a Demi-God form because Trunks was part human or had partial god ki, he could've somehow gotten the remnants of god ki from his brief training with Vegeta and his fights with SSR Goku Black. But they chose to explain it as a rage form inside of a video game. That's like two writing sins in one.

With Vegeta's form, unlike Trunks', the emotional payoff was flat and it had no proper buildup. Vegeta's been flipflopping on powerups for the last few episodes. First he's all like, "Imma get Ultra Whatever now that Kakarott has it" and he fails, then he gets a powerup based on his pride which seemed contrived because when has Vegeta ever gotten a power up based on that infinite pride of his before. And now we have this new form because Vegeta wants something based on his personality???, that also has no name and a hackneyed explanation. They should've just focused on one transformation and his motivation should've been clear this whole time. Instead, it all comes out of left field and feels inconsequential anyway, something to sell DLC and appease rabid Vegeta fans. If it has a big impact on the story, I'll eat my words. I just don't think it'll matter since we're leading up to UI Goku vs. Jiren anyway.

My criticism of Vegeta's form is it looks like its a bunch of distinct concepts thrown together and it shares that with Trunks form. For both, Toei just used a grab bag of traits from previous Super Saiyan forms. With Trunks it was, put him in his SSJ2 form, bulk him up like SSJ Grade 2, give him pupil-less eyes like when he first transformed into SSJ Grade 3, and him his SSJ2 aura but have god ki run through it as well. For Trunks it worked and for me personally, was visually appealing at least, and it had the classic emotional breakdown that felt satisfying. Now for Vegeta he had SSB as a base then got SSJ Grade 2 levels of buff (in some shots at least), got blue UI looking eyes with pupils, and random glitter in his aura. It's a personal preference, but I just don't think it looks good especially for Vegeta. I dig the darker blue hair but that's it.

As far as Goku and Kaioken goes. Well, KK's always been there and many of us fans have been wondering why Goku never used KK, a power multiplying technique, on top of Super Saiyan, a power multiplying transformation. What was satisfying about it was he got several explanations these things, such as why KK can't stack on top of the normal SSJ transformations, and why KK does work with SSB. And Kaioken has been around forever, so it's not an asspull, it's just a question of "why have you never used this before," and they explained it well, for once. If only they went into that amount of detail for Vegeta and Trunks' transformations. Maybe they'd make some sense. The only explanation for Vegeta's power was "He broke through his shell." "His power feels infinite." "I want to keep my promise to Cabba." Which equates to, "He broke through his limits, in order to keep his promise to Cabba and now his power is spectacular." Piccolo saying his power felt infinite or whatever is just pointless hype. As a matter of fact the whole reasoning for his transformation and the transformation itself feels like pointless hype.

Now, the last thing I want to say is that I love Vegeta in the manga. He's never that far behind Goku and is a true rival to him. That power dynamic between the two keeps the rivalry interesting, which the anime kinda ruined with SSBKK. And I like the LOGIC behind Mastered SSB. It's the culmination of what Whis initially taught them about God Ki and feels so much like classic Dragon Ball to me.

For me to accept Vegeta's anime power up, it just has to feel special and like it came from a real place inside of Vegeta, not just because he needed it to advance the plot or sell some more toys. While I do think Vegeta cares for Cabba, I never got the sense that he cared about him so much that it would push him to transform. They never built that relationship. And moments like that undermine previous episodes as well. It makes you think, why didn't Vegeta go SSJ2 when Cell killed Trunks? Super often uses emotional moments they haven't properly built up to make characters transform and it just feels flat.

With Ikari Trunks, the rage, hopelessness, and pent up anger was at least palpable and you felt Trunks was ready to snap at the hypocritical condemnations of the evil god that just wiped out this world that Trunks was desperately trying to rebuild and protect. That's one hell of a motivation. With Vegeta it's about a kid he kinda liked got erased and he wants to wish him back and that pushes him past his limits somehow. My two cents anyway.

About the manga, I agree. There Vegeta is actually treated so much better than in the anime.
I like how he created or at least perfected on the basis of the hard training the dynamics of switching between SSG and SSB. It really seems that he thought of a strategy to defeat Black, not just increase his brute power.
Despite being overtaken by Goku in the FT saga, few chapters later he equals his rival dominating the SSB in the same way. While in the anime, he most of the time was behind because of the Kaioken (which also created several confusions in the energy scale).

And I also agree that Trunks had a great motivation to get a new transformation, the point is that this was not built throughout the saga. TOEI could simply have Trunks train with Whis or at least a few months with Vegeta on RoSaT, but she decided to give Trunks an insane power up without any proper training, and no promotion of any kind before. The power up felt much more forced, after all, Trunks SSJ2 seemed a nuisance in the fight against Black.

And I do not think that just using Kyabe as motivation is a bad thing.
Vegeta had all his race extinct by Freeza. To know that in another universe there existed a planet full of good Saiyans who fight for justice must have been very rewarding for him, basically as if he could have contact again with someone of the same blood (outside Goku and his sons) and had his whole race brought back. He saw this in Kyabe, so much so that he decided to train him in the middle of the tournament and taught the SSJ to him (Vegeta would not do that to anyone). He also wanted to meet Kyabe's Planet and that was a promise.

Now in the tournament, Vegeta promised that he would resurrect Kyabe to fulfill his promise. And with the death of Kyabe himself, it has become a huge burden for Vegeta to carry, a promise he can not simply ignore. So there really is a strong relationship between the two, and this has been worked out since the Champa tournament, reinforced on EP 112 and used as motivation for Vegeta to get stronger.
Vegeta also trained enough to get a power up at that level, so it's no exaggeration that he got so strong (as opposed to future Trunks). The explanation about him '' breaking the wall '' just means that something like that happened when Goku got the UI, he went beyond his limit, unlocking a hidden potential in his body.

On the visual, I also think it's a matter of preference. I like the aura of the SSJ Rage Trunks, but I prefer the aura of Vegeta's new '' Blue '', it's something more detailed and visually more beautiful. The pupils were also something to really differentiate this form from the others

About Kaioken, we did not see Goku at any point even hint at combining this technique with Blue. He trained with Whis and Vegeta on RoSaT for years, and both Whis and Vegeta neither knew what he was planning. How?
He also says that the chance of this combination working is 10%, but conveniently, it just works.

Then the Kaioken is set aside and the justification was a kind of Ki disease.
Goku fought several battles against Black and Zamasu, almost died, had to return to the past and never used the Kaioken (this gave the impression that the technique was not in the script of Toriyama and if it were used by TOEI, could simply beat Black and Zamasu very more quickly).
However, suddenly Goku uses against Zamasu, with no apparent training to master.

In the next saga, he simply can use the technique freely without any wear and tear. So overall this was always very strange in anime