Goku's Time Skip

[Akira Kishimoto]

While I was reading through my manga yesterday it really occured to me. That, how in the hell did Goku ever become stronger than Vegeta. In the manga he had a power level of about 24,000 when he boosted the Kao-Ken up to 3 times. He was powerful than Vegeta... than... but Vegeta was crushed and nearly killed by Ozzaru Gohan and traveled back to one of the Freeza planets he was brought back ten times more powerful. He should've stayed more powerful than Goku. Let's not mention that when he was brutaly beaten by Zarbon Vegeta grew ever stronger... when in the high hell did Goku ever make it past Vegeta without turning Super Saiyan?

[Phenomenol]

After Goku's training in 100 times gravity.
After Goku came out of the healing pod to fight Freeza.
All these are before Super Saiya-jin power-up.

[Terra-jin]

That's actually one of my main problems with Dragonball. All it takes, apparently, to get that much stronger is a short period of 100.G training. If this is true, then surely Freeza's men would've also used this kind of training? It seems odd that Goku could've gained this much power by such a short time and that his case was unique (Vegeta wondered how Goku got that much powerful several times). Even the godly training of Kaio-sama, the Lord of Worlds, didn't have such a dramatic effect.

There are a few points that may explain this. It could be that Goku has such a uniquely vivid fighting spirit that only he could ever endure such an extreme training.
That said, he also totally abused his Saiyan zenkai powerup (he went all-out five or six times and each time he healed himself with a senzu bean). This may account for the steep rise in his power. After the training, a narration says that "Goku now has the ability to become a Super Saiyan", indicating that Goku reached an unprecedented level of power through his rigorous training.
It may also be that Goku has a greater zenkai powerup; being that he experiences a much greater powerup than normal Saiyans when he reaches his limit.

These characteristics of Goku may be the explanation behind his ability to take his trainings to extreme heights.

[Tyro]

he was brought back ten times more powerful.

Vegeta went from "barely 18,000" to 24,000.

[Bomber Greek]

Yeah, I was just about to say that. More like he got only 1 1/3 times stronger.

[Xyex]

Yeah. The largest increase in Vegeta's power occurred either after the Ginyu battle or during the fight with Freeza. Post Ginyu he went from the 30 to 35 thousand range up to the 250 to 350 thousand range. And then against Freeza from the 250 to 350 thousand range up to the 2 to 2.5 million range or so. Unless you go with the idea that Goku's base was equal (or nearly so) that of Freeza's 4th form power immediately following the transformation. In which case it went from the 250 to 350 thousand range up to about 5 million.

The thing with Goku is he got, what, 4 or 5 Zenkai's during his trip to Namek? And with those he went from around 8 thousand to 90 thousand. Less than 12 fold spread out over multiple Zenkais. And then his next Zenkai increases his power by more than 30 fold? (85.5~ if you want to be truly as exact with the powers.)

[Rocketman]

That's actually one of my main problems with Dragonball. All it takes, apparently, to get that much stronger is a short period of 100.G training. If this is true, then surely Freeza's men would've also used this kind of training?

Nope. First, they have Freeza, who's not going to let a Saiyan do that training at all, and probably wouldn't let another race for fear they'd revolt.

Second, Freeza's basic soldiers were around 1000-3000, and most Saiyans probably fell into that range too. Remember, people like the Ginyu Force or Zarbon are the elites, the special forces sent in when the regular soldiers can't hack it. That means power levels in the 1000-3000 range are enough to support a galactic empire in the DB universe. There's no reason for Freeza to pump his soldiers up, because they already walk over nearly everyone.

[Conan the SSJ]

Speaking from viewing the anime: The very fact Goku continued to train in his own unique ways while injured, even taking himself out all over again at one point, pretty much contributed to the natural zenkai he'd gotten when Yajirobe gave him a senzu. Then there's the 5-6 days of nonstop increasing-gravity training (only for food, all of which he ate in one sitting, and sleeping which he did with the increased gravity on), eventually to the point where he trained at 100x Gravity nonstop. And as already pointed out, even while training on his ship, he got quite a couple zenkais on the way, even having to eat two senzus IIRC. Considering all that, I don't see how it's so surprising he got to 90,000 (180,000 w/t Kaioken) by the end of his training. Vegeta's zenkais getting him to an equal par to Freeza's first form max., now that's insane IMO.

[Akira]

Going by the Daizenshuu Guides, things said and implied in the manga, and using math to figure out anything else possible, here's what I have for Goku and Vegeta:


Bardock Special:
2 – Kakkarot (Infant Goku)

At the Beginning:
10 – Son Goku
100 – Oozaru Son Goku (Giant Ape form multiplies Saiyan power by 10)

22nd World Martial Arts Tournament:
180 – Son Goku

At the Battle with Piccolo Daimao:
260 – Son Goku (Post Sacred Water)

At the Battle with Raditz:
334 – Son Goku (with weighted clothing)
416 – Son Goku (without weighted clothing)
924 – Son Goku (maximum power – Kamehameha)

Battle against Vegeta:
8,000 – Son Goku
16,000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x2)
24,000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x3)
32,000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x4)

18,000 – Vegeta
24,000 – Vegeta (maximum – Gallick-ho)
180,000 – Oozaru Vegeta

Hunt for Dragonballs on Namek:
24,000 – Vegeta
30,000 – Vegeta (Post Healing Tank and Zenkai)

Battle with the Ginyu Force:
30,000 – Vegeta

5,000 – Son Goku (ki suppressed)
90,000 – Son Goku
180,000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x2)
900,000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x10 – Referenced, not used in battle)

Battle with Freeza:
580,000 – Vegeta
1,160,000 – Vegeta (Post Dende Healing and Zenkai)

3,000,000 – Son Goku (Post Healing Tank and Zenkai)
30,000,000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x10)
60,000,000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x20)
150,000,000 – Super Saiyan Son Goku


Those are about as accurate as I can come to. If anyone needs an explanation for any of this, let me know. I don't go by what I think makes sense, or what I guess someone to be at. There is a logic or math equation I used to determine the ones not specifically listed or scanned with a Scouter. Otherwise I don't list it if it is undeterminable. Battle powers are either hotly contested or ignored outright in disgust. Believe me I understand this, so I don't even mention it unless I can use some serious evidence to back something up.

[Tyro]

924 – Son Goku (maximum power – Kamehameha)

Raditz: "It can't be!!! His power...up to 924!!! And increasing...!!"

8,000 – Son Goku
16,000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x2)
24,000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x3)
32,000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x4)

"Over 8,000". But you said you don't like to speculate on what power levels are, so I understand.

24,000 – Vegeta (maximum – Gallick-ho)

How is 24,000 Vegeta's full power during the Gyarikku-ho? Goku was using a 3-fold Kaio-ken plus a Kamehameha, a technique shown to increase the user's ki for the period in which the attack is being used.

180,000 – Oozaru Vegeta

Although this would be correct if Vegeta was still at full power upon transforming into an Oozaru, he wasn't. He had lost ki from both being hit by Goku's 4-fold Kaio-ken Kamehameha and creating the moon ball.

580,000 – Vegeta

Vegeta was on the losing end of his "fight" with Freeza (third suppression). Freeza's power level was 530,000 at highest.

[Akira]

On Raditz's Scan of Goku, good call. I will adjust that. He was around 1,000 obviously at maximum.

On the 8,000 scan when he arrived to face Nappa and Vegeta, the scouters seem to round off once powers read into the thousands. Hundred increments were still read along with it, but anything over 2,000 was usually rounded off. "Around 8,000" was Goku's max there.

On Oozaru Vegeta, you are also correct, I had not thought about that. I'll remove that one as it is undeterminable.

Vegeta did jump up to 24,000 when he maxed out his Gallick-ho. He and Goku were dead even in their beam struggle. This why Goku had to press himself past his limits to a Kaioken x4 to overpower Vegeta. So I am still certain that one is correct.

When fighting Freeza, Vegeta had to be as strong or stronger by a bit to confidently taunt Freeza into going to his Second form and think he could still win. They seemed pretty evenly matched, but even so, Vegeta would not taunt him like that unless he somehow still thought he had an edge. He most likely figured it to be like Zarbon's Transformation which jumped him up some, but not by the huge margin that Freeza's second form actually did boost him by.

Your thoughts? Please share. As you can see, I want to make this as accurate as possible. I am hardly on an "I think it was this, therefore it was" kick. I am open to things I might not have thought of or overlooked.

[Terra-jin]

Vegeta did jump up to 24,000 when he maxed out his Gallick-ho. He and Goku were dead even in their beam struggle. This why Goku had to press himself past his limits to a Kaioken x4 to overpower Vegeta. So I am still certain that one is correct.

It could be that Goku lost some strength like Vegeta did before turning Oozaru; that Goku's powerlevel was at 6,000 during the Kamehameha-Gallick-Ho struggle. Going Kaiokenx3 then would result in an 18,000 Goku. Vegeta's powerlevel would then also be 18,000.

[Akira]

I'll have to double check the manga on that to see if Goku fired any ki before that or took significant damage that might have resulted in such a dramatic drop. If anything, I do appreciate folks who can seriously discuss this topic and not get into heated arguments. They are just numbers from a comic book basically. I think it is neat, therefore I wanted to make an accurate list of them. However, in the end, it is what it is. For your participation and friendly conversation, you have my thanks.

That's hard to get anywhere else on the net where people try to discuss "Power Levels". It always gets you sneers and jeers from those who don't want to bother with them, and boasting children defending lists they made up and guessed on. I stayed away from talking about it for a long time, because of the negative connotation, but I am glad there is a respectable place for it here.

Especially on something like this, it is always good to get other viewpoints and thoughts on the matter.

[Terra-jin]

You're welcome

As for the drop in Goku's powerlevel, I think it can be accounted for by the Kaioken itself. The Kaioken strains your body, especially if you go beyond your trained limit like Goku did. Before the beam struggle started, Goku made several statements about it. From Viz:

"Better finish this fast, or it's gonna be bad..."

"My whole body hurts..!! Guess the triple Kaioken was a little too much for me..."

At this time, I also believe that Vegeta's powerlevel was lower than 18,000 since he did take quite a beating from x3 Goku. Exact numbers are undiscernable, but at least we can prove that Vegeta wasn't above 18,000 at any time during the Saiyan saga.

[Tyro]

Vegeta did jump up to 24,000 when he maxed out his Gallick-ho. He and Goku were dead even in their beam struggle. This why Goku had to press himself past his limits to a Kaioken x4 to overpower Vegeta. So I am still certain that one is correct.

Well, Goku using a 3-fold Kaio-ken and a Kamehameha was equal to Vegeta's Gyarikku-ho. The Kamehameha has always shown at least some increase in the user's ki, usually, in Dragonball. The Kamehameha against Raditz for an example. And the 20-fold Kaio-ken fueled Kamehameha against Freeza. Vegeta would logically have to surpass the "over 24,000" area to match the Kamehameha.

When fighting Freeza, Vegeta had to be as strong or stronger by a bit to confidently taunt Freeza into going to his Second form and think he could still win. They seemed pretty evenly matched, but even so, Vegeta would not taunt him like that unless he somehow still thought he had an edge. He most likely figured it to be like Zarbon's Transformation which jumped him up some, but not by the huge margin that Freeza's second form actually did boost him by.

I completely understand what you're saying. I'm just saying that's not how it turned out. Vegeta (24,000) vs. Zarbon (usually listed around 22,000 for his remarks on Vegeta's ki) = 1.09090909x difference. Vegeta...owned him. 580,000/530,000 = 1.09433962x difference. Vegeta could have owned Freeza if that were the case, only worse.





As you can see from the above pictures, when the struggle was over Vegeta came out to be the one huffing and puffing while sweat cooled his face.

[Xyex]

When fighting Freeza, Vegeta had to be as strong or stronger by a bit to confidently taunt Freeza into going to his Second form and think he could still win. They seemed pretty evenly matched, but even so, Vegeta would not taunt him like that unless he somehow still thought he had an edge. He most likely figured it to be like Zarbon's Transformation which jumped him up some, but not by the huge margin that Freeza's second form actually did boost him by.

The problem is, I doubt that Freeza was even at his full 530,000 power while in that form during his short scuffle with Vegeta. When Vegeta taunts him about transforming (and this has always come across as his normal ego talking via overconfidence in his abilities to me) Freeza does a quick power-up that breaks off his armor. (I've always figured Freeza was around the 300 to 350 thousand range prior to that power up.)

Also, Vegeta tried his hardest in the strungle and was visibly winded afterwards. Meanwhile Freeza was unphased by the exchange. Impressed by Vegeta's power, yes, but unphased. So Vegeta wouldn't even be as strong as the non-powered up Freeza. (Somewhere in the 250 to 300 thousand range, most likely, depending on where Freeza's power was.)

1,160,000 – Vegeta (Post Dende Healing and Zenkai)

I'm not sure what makes you think this, either. Vegeta assumed he could take on Freeza after his healing. He was also able to see Freeza when Piccolo could not after Freeza had reached his 4th form. Thus he has to be stronger than Piccolo at this point and Piccolo was stronger than 2nd Form Freeza who was 'over 1 million' and had since performed 2 more power-ups.

As for the drop in Goku's powerlevel, I think it can be accounted for by the Kaioken itself. The Kaioken strains your body, especially if you go beyond your trained limit like Goku did. Before the beam struggle started, Goku made several statements about it. From Viz:

"Better finish this fast, or it's gonna be bad..."

"My whole body hurts..!! Guess the triple Kaioken was a little too much for me..."

Certainly makes sense to me. This same idea about being weakend through injury and strain also applies, IMO, to the SSJ Goku Vs. Freeza battle. Goku going to Kaio Ken x20 had to have extensively strained his body considering he'd not even been sure he could do it at all. Plus the pounding he took prior to transforming and I doubt he was anywhere even remotely near full power when he used the Spirit Bomb or first went Super Saiya-jin.

[Akira]

Excellent use of Manga scans to refresh my memory of a particular scene. Vegeta had to be somewhere close to Freeza's 530,000 max. To determine a solid estimate you have to take into account Freeza's powers, the fact that Piccolo was stronger than Form 2, and that Vegeta after his Zenkai was stronger than Piccolo and Freeza form 3. Vegeta assumed he could take on Form 4 when Freeza had the bulk of his power supressed.

Here's what I have:

42,000 – Nail
66,000 – Piccolo (Post Kaio Training)
1,080,000 – Piccolo (Merged with Nail)

530,000 – Freeza (Form 1)
1,060,000 – Freeza (Form 2)
1,100,000 – Freeza (Form 3)
1,200,000 – Freeza (Final Form 1%)
30,000,000 – Freeza (Final Form 25%)
60,000,000 – Freeza (Final Form 50%)
84,000,000 – Freeza (Final Form 70%)
120,000,000 – Freeza (Final Form 100%)

The given battle powers are Freeza form 1, and Form 4 at 50% and at 100%

The other percentages of Form 4 are figured out easily with math. Weither Freeza actually fought at 1% is not entirely the question, but that Even at 1% of Form 4 would have to be greater than Form 3. We know Form 2 was "Over a Million". So I have always assumed it was a straight doubling of Form 1 Power.

530,000 x 2 = 1,060,000 To get a Solid estimate on Form 2

My Math for Piccolo is based on Nail's Given battle Power when Scanned by Freeza. Piccolo had trained with North Kaio and felt he'd gained a sufficient boost enough to go to Namek and Fight. We know that Merged they were greater than Form 2. If you add Piccolo's Power to Nail's and Multiply by ten as a result of the Fusion, then you get the estimate that is above Form 2's power by a bit. They fought mostly even. Maybe you even consider Piccolo's weighted Clothing put him right at 1,060,000 and they were at an even match.

(42,000 + 66,000) x 10 = 1,080,000


So Form 3 has to fall between the Form 2 Estimate and the 1% Estimate of Form 4. Sure in Comparison to the other transformations it seems like a small boost, but it was still in the tens of thousands. Freeza didn't use the form for long and felt threatened enough to go ahead to Form 4.

I have it Estimated at 1,100,000. This falls between Form 2 at 1,060,000 and Form 4 1% at 1,200,000. Vegeta has to be in there somewhere enough to think he could take on a Supressed Form 4, and also be stronger than both Piccolo and Freeza at Form 3. Even if I am not spot on, I am playing in the right ballpark here.

[Tyro]

66,000 – Piccolo (Post Kaio Training)

I'm not quite sure about this one. Although it may be true that Piccolo was complemented by Nail about his impressive power...Going from around 2,500 to 66,000 in a little more than five days (5.5 maybe?) is...more than an increase Goku received when he trained with him. If I may:

I view Piccolo's training as practically 1/10th of how difficult Goku's was. Goku training in 100x Earth gravity, Piccolo in 10x Earth gravity. Goku reached 90,000 in six days. 90,000/10 = 9,000. 3x what a young Namekian's power level was.

1,080,000 – Piccolo (Merged with Nail)

Piccolo would have to be stronger than this to be able to compete with Freeza (second suppression, first power up). After Gohan's enraged assault upon Freeza for "killing" Kuririn, Freeza tells Gohan he will now return the pain he's been dealt, many times over. So a reasonable increase, say 1,200,000, would be in order. Piccolo shows up, and by Vegeta's own statement says Piccolo has a slight advantage in the fight.

1,100,000 – Freeza (Form 3)
1,200,000 – Freeza (Final Form 1%)

Why such small increases? That leaves no room for Freeza's two power ups in his second suppressed state.

[Akira]

Has to be that, it is the only thing that works out with the math for Form 4. I know it is controversial what percentage of his Power Freeza Showed intially in Form 4. But at 1% of Form 4, he was 1,200,000.

Freeza at 100% 120,000,000 / 100 = 1,200,000 Freeza at 1%

We can't refute the math on that, so the Form 3 has to fit between that and Form 2 at "Over a million" I dunno, but it just wasn't that big of an increase. We can say that it doesn't make much sense, but then we start going into fan "I think this" area, and I'd rather stick to the facts and keep my opinion out of it as much as I possibly can.

Form 3 must have been more a transitional phaze than anything else, Freeza didn't use it for long, so that may explain why. It didn't offer a stunning boost. It was just another phaze of supression, and not really anything special. We may want to think otherwise, I know I do, but the facts just don't support it.

[FindKenshi]

I don't want to get too much into a "power levels" discussion, but I wanted to say something about Freeza not being winded after he struggled with Vegeta. This could indeed mean he was a bit superior to Vegeta, but I don't think it does, personally.

I have this theory (and mind you, it's just a theory) that Freeza can momentarily access the power of his "next form", during a moment of desperation. For example, Freeza's "second form" who got a second wind, and smashed Piccolo a good one; forcing Piccolo to take his weights off. Freeza's "third form" suddenly being able to throw Gohan's full power beam back up in his face, when seconds ago he was being slowly overtaken by it.

That may be why Freeza showed no fatigue after being put through duress, by Vegeta. When Freeza fought Nail, he stated he would not use his full power, and then he didn't power up. Against Vegeta, however, Freeza was enraged; and powered up at length before the battle. Despite this, Vegeta was able to catch Freeza's punch and restrict his movement. This indicates equal strength. Not "slightly inferior" strength. With one hand alone, Vegeta was able to prevent Freeza from striking him, and caught one of Freeza's punches in each of his hands. They then struggled for a bit, and neither showed any advantage.

I don't think we should look too deeply at the fact that Freeza was not sweating and "huffing" for breath afterwards. This may simply be an allusion to the fact that what he's using now isn't even a significant portion of 1% of his full power, were he not surpressing his true form. At that point the ammount of power Freeza has hidden in reserve is deep and full like an ocean.

Just my opinion, anyway.