What's wrong with the FUNi grunting?

Godo · Post by **Godo** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:23 am

I can put my 2 cents here, but it won't really contribute that much in the real debate we have here overall.

I think that Dragonball overall, both the japanese and the english version, has too much screams and grunts. They prolong the screams too much (SSJ3 Goku transformation anyone?).

I would be a bigger fan of the anime if they shortened the screams and such a bit. They give me a headache.

Let's compare the DBZ anime with the Naruto anime.
In Naruto there is less screams, but still it's replaced with extra times Naruto performs the Kagebunshin No Jutsu, or when they show the sceneries too much.

Overall, what I want to say is that that's why I prefer the manga before the anime.

One thing though, I like that the anime gives the characters more life, so I don't mind watching it once in a while.

Tsukento · Post by **Tsukento** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 12:05 pm

Naruto does not use techniques where he has to force out all of his Ki from his body to properly use it. Not to mention, the incredible amount of said Ki is a tremendous strain on one's body if not trained to use it for extended periods of time (Kaio-Ken and Super Saiyan 3 comes to mind here). Then you also have Ki that if forced out enough, could pretty much kill the person in an explosion (such as when Chaozu and Vegeta sacrificed themselves at certain points).

The closest you'll get to that in Naruto is when Rock Lee fought Gaara.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 2:16 pm

Tsukento wrote:Naruto does not use techniques where he has to force out all of his Ki from his body to properly use it. Not to mention, the incredible amount of said Ki is a tremendous strain on one's body if not trained to use it for extended periods of time (Kaio-Ken and Super Saiyan 3 comes to mind here). Then you also have Ki that if forced out enough, could pretty much kill the person in an explosion (such as when Chaozu and Vegeta sacrificed themselves at certain points).

The closest you'll get to that in Naruto is when Rock Lee fought Gaara.

Naruto VS. Neji, when he go power from the Kyuubi.

And meh, I just see complaining about grunting when grunting always sounds the same to be... I don't know, ridiculous.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 3:10 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote:He didn't make it sound like he was trying to transform, he made it sound like he was about to explode with anger.

...he sounded like he was about to explode in his pants.
I'm sorry, but acting in season 3 was atrocious. I know they were all new and everything, but having an excuse for sucking doesn't mean it didn't suck.

In the Japanese version, that gurgling and clicking kind of sound he was making sounds like he was trying to reign in his emotions. Like he was pissed and trying to control himself. In the dub it sounds more like he was trying to literally push out his transformation. There was this unrealistic strain behind every word, like his whole body was locked up. One- this doesn't happen when one go's SSJ. Two- this does happen when one his pushing out a large turd. Hence the comments on "taking a dump" and "gay porn" (use your imagination on the last one).

Lavender Saiyan wrote:
Actual English clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKYTjSE3xgk
Once again, I feel that this sounds more acurate to what you would sound like if you were straining your body to ultimate ends.

I've trained in martial arts and participated in sports. I've strained, and seen guys strain, and not once did anyone sound like they were dropping a deuce. Ok, that's a lie, but we'd be talking about guys lifting weights (especially doing squats). but even then, it is a grunt (as they suck in air) that tunrs into a scream at the end of the rep. The dub gives us this string of grunting, groaning, and growling that sounds forced and unnatural.

Likewise, a kiai in martial arts is often yelled when performing a technique, or before it. We are taught that it helps to focus one's inner will, to better expel their energy (basically to increase the potency of our attacks). it manifests not as a grunt, but as a yell. Like someone said, look at Drummond's Vegeta, especially before he fought Reacoom. That was more like how it should be.
AND, may I add, that this show is a MARTIAL ARTS action show. Regardless of conflicting opinions on how a westerner should sound when karatizing someone's punk ass (and, note, having been to a number of competitions, it is NOT like grunting), they show is based on eastern approaches to the issue. It'd be kinda like watching Enter the Dragon, with some guy dubbing over Bruce Lee's fights grunts that would make Stone Cold shake his head in disgust.

And if the problem is just with powering up... I've been so angry it took everything I had to not break someone's skull open. And I didn't sound like i was taking a crap. If anything, a low gurgle. That's the difference between the two approaches. Something like bringing out power through ones rage is treated like an emotional thing in the original version. In the dub, it is treated more physical, and it literally sounds like they are trying to push something through... their asses.

EDIT: Kunzait mentioned the difference in the way "power" is treated in English. Its true. In the Japanese version, ki was a fairly fluid, spiritual concept. Characters who were all about power often failed to grasp this. Freeza's army and their scouters, trying to measure levels of "power," and constantly being surprised by characters who could control their "ki." Dr. Gero, who thought he had everything down to a mathematical science. When Piccolo was owning him, he even differentiates- he says "what you would call "energy"..." while explaining how he can control his ki and channel it into bursts greater than any surface reading of his level would imply.

Further EDIT:

omegacwa wrote:Even Jean Claude Van Dam movies have tons of grunting.

So basically... you can compare the Japanese version to Bruce Lee's Fists of Fury and the English version to Van Damme's Double Impact? I rest my case.

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 3:37 pm

Super Sonic · Post by **Super Sonic** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 3:56 pm

Kunzait, since you live in Tanzania, why do you watch the US dub at all?

Will say the kiais Mr. Schemmel did in the "Goku vs. Vegeta" featurette sounded pretty cool in my opinion.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 3:59 pm

Super Sonic wrote:Kunzait, since you live in Tanzania, why do you watch the US dub at all?

Will say the kiais Mr. Schemmel did in the "Goku vs. Vegeta" featurette sounded pretty cool in my opinion.

Nono, that says Zanzibar Land. That's Metal Gear, son

MyVisionity wrote:

I agree. FUNimation's intent was to make an American product for an American audience. The exaggerated grunting sounds are common for children's shows, not to mention FUNi's actors aren't exactly the cream of the crop.

Yeah, but can we really be faulted if any of us has a problem with taking Dragon Ball and turning it into Double Dragon: The Animated Series?

I think in the case of Hakusho, that series is much more grounded in reality than DB. Plus by the time they started that series, FUNi had more experience and was able to stay more faithful to the original.

I'd swallow that if it wasn't for the fact that this divide didn't exist in either show's original versions.

VegettoEX wrote: I'm a nitpicky idiot, plain and simple. I am a moron.

Amen.

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:57 pm

Super Sonic · Post by **Super Sonic** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:03 pm

Hey, I saw Zanzibar, and thought you meant Zanzibar literally. True, was wondering that DBZ was aired in Eastern Africa, but still, my bad.

Lavender Saiyan · Post by **Lavender Saiyan** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:53 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:No... he didn't. At all. You watched the clip and he sounded strained to you?

Yes, given the styles of the strain where different. But they were straining noises none the less. Just 2 different styles of strain. Horikawa did have breathing, but it was grunty breathing. Sabat simply strained his body. Which again, sounds more realistic to someone who has veins popping out of their heads.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:37 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:In fact two of my friends started out as casual dub fans, but then grew to LOATHE the series with a passion after awhile largely because the voices just got on their nerves way too much for them to tolerate. Later they totally fell in love with it all over again once they saw a bunch of it in Japanese, and remain fans to this day.

Hey... I resemble that remark.

Kunzait_83 wrote:If you think I’m harsh with the dub, you should be thankful that those two don’t post here. Wink They have me beat by a mile. One of them is totally convinced that FUNimation's entire English DBZ fanbase is some sort of a brainwashed cult.

Hah, good 'ol Pollox. I wish that kid did post here.

Lavender Saiyan wrote:
Kunzait_83 wrote:No... he didn't. At all. You watched the clip and he sounded strained to you?
Yes, given the styles of the strain where different. But they were straining noises none the less. Just 2 different styles of strain. Horikawa did have breathing, but it was grunty breathing. Sabat simply strained his body. Which again, sounds more realistic to someone who has veins popping out of their heads.

Lavender, I don't mean this as an insult, but have you ever strained yourself in that manner? Like I touched on earlier, my high school years were filled with physical activity (Football, Track & Field, and of course weight training and running during off time to stay conditioned), and before that I was a martial artist. Not one person I have ever met in those activities, LEAST of all a martial artist, makes the noises Mr. Sabat makes while portraying Vegeta in the earlier days powering up.

I'm going to give two examples. The first- Gohan's first time (awwww).

English-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x40b3D7c8Lk
Let 'er load, go to about the 3 min mark.

Japanese-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2Zoqdlvmi0
This time you want to go to about 5:53.

Note that I'm not trying to attack anyone who prefers the first clip. But I do want to illustrate this point I made earlier. In the japanese version, like with Goku's first change, Gohan is making a sort of gurgle-click noise. It is the kind of sound one makes if severely enraged and trying to control oneself. Like I sai earlier, I've made similar sounds (thought not as prolonged or exaggerated). In the english clip he sounds...and I hate to keep using this analogy... like he's taking a clip. You kinda want to quote Tom Arnold in Austin Powers. "Yeah, that's right buddy! You show that turd who's boss... Just grab ahold of something, bite your lip, and give it hell!"

One version plays up the change as an emotional trigger (the whole thing with Gohan ends with Goku urging him to calm down after all), while the other makes the transformation sound like something most reminiscent of waste elimination.

Second example is of Vegeta- this is Sabat vs Sabat comparison. Sabat when first going SSJ-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWsyZY60FfA

Honestly, this hurt my ears the first time I heard it. You know what was worse? Hi "I'm a Super Saiyan because I say I am" power-up against Freeza.

Now, from movie 8-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvIBgrYu-Zc

No unnecessary brown stains, just a scream of anger. I may not be a Sabat fan, but this was a step above his norm.

Here's him (and Schemmel/Goku) going level 2-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3PecbVPuc8

Again, like 8, more of just that yell and burst of power. Granted, this stuff is shorter than the earlier instances... but in the japanese version a longer powerup sounds just like shorter one. Except, like, longer and stuffs.

Here's something interesting-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ya-WDoGZ1_E

Its a powerup tribute someone made. Ok so my useage of the word interesting is maybe off, but it does help this topic. You can see that later into their work, they kind of move away from this whole super-exaggeration of someone pumping iron while taking a crap, and move more towards the japanese style of yelling with a sort of supernatural echo effect coming in as the power rises. I'm not big on the dub, but I have to say the second style is a much better effort.

SonEric84 · Post by **SonEric84** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:38 pm

You know, the fact that people still like the series after Funimation's treatment says a hell of a lot about the overall quality of the show.

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:37 pm

TheGreatness25 · Post by **TheGreatness25** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:41 pm

Well if FUNimation didn't bring DBZ to the US, nobody in the US would know about it. So...that's my point. I kind of liked it. People don't like it because they compare it to the original and of course it's not "good" because it doesn't follow the original. But it's not meant to. It's supposed to be a US version of the show, as opposed to a mere translation.

Super Sonic · Post by **Super Sonic** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:28 am

Kunzait_83 wrote: Dubbing it properly would have at least ensured that they maximized their potential audience. Look at Naruto. Perfectly acceptable dub for the most part and it’s become such a hit with even small children. Were things like replacing the music with droning generic trash, peppering the dialogue with constant lame-ass wisecracks and Ebonics, and changing or mispronouncing/mistranslating Japanese names and phrases necessary for the show to be accepted by the kiddies?

No. Of course not, because kids can be intelligent enough to accept mature or foreign concepts so long as you give them half a chance and don’t assume off the bat that they’re morons. Hell they even kept in the concept of charka, a very similar concept to ki, which was removed from DBZ. And were kids put off by this? Again no.

The fact that Naruto is presented the way it is is a large part of the reason why most kids today think that it kicks the fucking shit out of DBZ. Can you imagine how much more popular DBZ would’ve been if it was just presented faithfully and straightforward?

Two things. 1) DB/DBZ was brought over here at a time when it was still thought "More Japanese, less likable". That didn't really go away until late 90s-early 2000s.

2) For Naruto kicking the crap out of DBZ, is more of a generational gap. Kind of like guys my age used to say the 90s Fantastic Four cartoon was better than the 60s one my old man watched.

Sebastian (SB) · Post by **Sebastian (SB)** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:11 am

Super Sonic wrote:Two things. 1) DB/DBZ was brought over here at a time when it was still thought "More Japanese, less likable". That didn't really go away until late 90s-early 2000s.

Yeah, but didn't FUNimation actually started dubbing Dragon Ball Z with their Texas cast around the late 90s-early 2000s when Japanese anime was becoming more acceptable? So wouldn't it make sense for them to keep true to the original (very similar to what they're doing to One Piece)? Or were they were just trying to be more consistent with the Ocean Group dub. Personally I think they should have done the prior.....but hey it's all in the past.

Super Sonic · Post by **Super Sonic** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 2:04 am

Sebastian (SB) wrote:
Super Sonic wrote:Two things. 1) DB/DBZ was brought over here at a time when it was still thought "More Japanese, less likable". That didn't really go away until late 90s-early 2000s.
Yeah, but didn't FUNimation actually started dubbing Dragon Ball Z with their Texas cast around the late 90s-early 2000s when Japanese anime was becoming more acceptable? So wouldn't it make sense for them to keep true to the original (very similar to what they're doing to One Piece)? Or were they were just trying to be more consistent with the Ocean Group dub. Personally I think they should have done the prior.....but hey it's all in the past.

My opinion as well. Too old to be getting mad over things that happened back when I was in high school.

Lavender Saiyan · Post by **Lavender Saiyan** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 2:30 am

Onikage725 wrote:Lavender, I don't mean this as an insult, but have you ever strained yourself in that manner? Like I touched on earlier, my high school years were filled with physical activity (Football, Track & Field, and of course weight training and running during off time to stay conditioned), and before that I was a martial artist. Not one person I have ever met in those activities, LEAST of all a martial artist, makes the noises Mr. Sabat makes while portraying Vegeta in the earlier days powering up.

Actually yes I have. I don't play any sports but I do list weights and work out. Now if memory of the sounds I make when pushing up the barbell for the final rep. The noise I most make would be similar to Movie 8 Sabat. Not early Sabat. But I have never once made that crackly noise (Gohan SSJ, JP) with my voice whether in anger or weight lifting. Actually that final Vid that you losted was a perfect example of what people sound like when straining like that. I agree that Sabat's early work (SSJ Vs.19) is a bit odd sounding. But I still don't find it as farfetched as people claim.

Edit: I just tried to do a power up to see what I said like. It's definetly like the Later Dub and the JP Version. So you guys are right on the Vegeta/19 thing.

But this topic was about FUNi grunting in general. Not just the early stuff (Freeza/Androids Saga). Actually by the Cell Games, if you listen to the Dub scene when the Z-Fighters are all attacking Cell during the Kamehameha Clash. When Vegeta first goes SSJ to help out, before hand Sabat makes those grunting/breathing noises.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fDUk3ceq6g

It's at 7:10. Not quite the best, but it seems like this was the start of the turn.

When Vegeta Ascends past the SSJ Level in the Dub. It seems mixed between the sounds of Vs.19 and the later sounds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVLqJsJ4gfE

This makes me wonder, come Season 4 of the Orange Brick release. How will Re-Dubbed Sabat sound doing that Vs.19 scene? In your opinions, how was his "so-called" SSJ Power up Vs.Freeza in Season 3 compared to the 1999 Dub? It could be an incling.

Adamant · Post by **Adamant** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 6:51 am

TheGreatness25 wrote:Well if FUNimation didn't bring DBZ to the US, nobody in the US would know about it.

Sure they would. DragonBall is one of the most popular cartoons worldwide - if FUNi hadn't gotten the rights to it, someone else eventually would.

SatoSky · Post by **SatoSky** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 7:37 am

Adamant wrote:
TheGreatness25 wrote:Well if FUNimation didn't bring DBZ to the US, nobody in the US would know about it.
Sure they would. DragonBall is one of the most popular cartoons worldwide - if FUNi hadn't gotten the rights to it, someone else eventually would.

I completely agree with Adamant. Also, I believe that there are people on this message board that have been fans of the show since the early 90's, years before Funimation got the license to distribute Dragon Ball in the U.S.