"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[Noah]

[spoiler][/spoiler]
Well... that went nowhere.

I don't think so, 'Ultimate' being on par with God-tier fighters is indeed a great achievement.

[Black Hawk]

I don't think so, 'Ultimate' being on par with God-tier fighters is indeed a great achievement.

Ever since Episode 90, to be honest, I'd actually been under the assumption that his Ultimate state keeping up with SSJ Blue was his new ultimate form. I'd held out a little hope that maybe something was even further beyond that, but "New Ultimate" being what he exhibited against Obuni, Pilina, Saonail, and Agnlasa, for example, was what I've believed for a while now.

[CriticalThinker]

Saw the latest episode and I think it was alright could have benefited from less animation reuse. But boooy that NEP for next weeks episode got me hyped like you couldn't believe! My main man Toppo looking mighty fierce and I can't wait to see him fight. Also man some people are taking Gohan's way to hard like I can understand but some are acting like he got Tien levels of treatment. I think he did well all things considered this arc and they could have treated him far worse.

[HeroR]

You cannot say that when literally every saiyan, and i do mean every saiyan, got a new form in this tournament but him.

I told you Toei hypes things up more than they should when they know its not going to have a high pay off and you argued with me when now look, this episode will be put up there with 119 and 106 when the writing isn't on par with those 2 simply because of the expectations Gohan was given.

I can since Gohan had one of the biggest boosts in the franchise in this one arc. He went from being strangled by Piccolo as a Super Saiyan 2 to 'rivaling' Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku in a single night. He didn't need a 'new form' to get a giant power boost. Even the forms the other Saiyans got pales in comparison to Gohan outside of UI Goku.

[HeroR]

Because he had a character arc and 17 didn't. Now watch me copy-paste a post I just made elsewhere because I have thoughts about this and don't want to waste time rewriting them:

Out of the three "comeback" arcs (Gohan, 17 and Krillin) in the Universe Survival Arc, it feels like the shallowest has been allowed the most pomp and circumstance.

You have Gohan, one-time protagonist and saviour of the Earth who became infamous for his fall from grace in the Buu arc. In this arc, he finally regains his lost power and then some, being named leader of Team Universe 7 and shedding the flaws that kept him from being a fighter. You have Krillin, one of the longest-running characters, best friend to Goku, strongest human and plucky underdog. After a two-parter exploring the effects of constantly being outclassed and dying on his psyche, he returns to being a martial artist with renewed confidence and some fancy new tricks. And then you have 17. He used to be a pretty cool secondary villain before he got et by Cell and disappeared from the plot. He's a park ranger now, but he's also apparently as strong as a Super Saiyan Blue. He's got no motivation, no arc, didn't even want to be in the tournament. All three of them are fighting to protect their families, but his is the only one we never see or hear from.

Basically, there were two characters with compelling arcs ripe for important developments, and one who was good for a few cool moments and not much else. Why then did Krillin get outed like a chump so soon, Gohan fare better but still ultimately accomplish less than his potential, while 17 keeps getting cool moments and lasts into the top 6? It's almost like buildup of a character is inversely proportional to their role in the tournament. Obviously power levels are a factor here as well, but why do we still allow them so much leeway? With the exception of Master Roshi outlasting Krillin and Tien, the elimination order for Universe 7 reads like a 13-year old DB Wiki contributors "My DBS Power Levels" list.

So has 17, it just wasn't a in your face as Gohan. And Gohan still got the biggest BS power boost this arc, yet fans still complained about him being underpowered.

[Kataphrut]

Because he had a character arc and 17 didn't. Now watch me copy-paste a post I just made elsewhere because I have thoughts about this and don't want to waste time rewriting them:

Out of the three "comeback" arcs (Gohan, 17 and Krillin) in the Universe Survival Arc, it feels like the shallowest has been allowed the most pomp and circumstance.

You have Gohan, one-time protagonist and saviour of the Earth who became infamous for his fall from grace in the Buu arc. In this arc, he finally regains his lost power and then some, being named leader of Team Universe 7 and shedding the flaws that kept him from being a fighter. You have Krillin, one of the longest-running characters, best friend to Goku, strongest human and plucky underdog. After a two-parter exploring the effects of constantly being outclassed and dying on his psyche, he returns to being a martial artist with renewed confidence and some fancy new tricks. And then you have 17. He used to be a pretty cool secondary villain before he got et by Cell and disappeared from the plot. He's a park ranger now, but he's also apparently as strong as a Super Saiyan Blue. He's got no motivation, no arc, didn't even want to be in the tournament. All three of them are fighting to protect their families, but his is the only one we never see or hear from.

Basically, there were two characters with compelling arcs ripe for important developments, and one who was good for a few cool moments and not much else. Why then did Krillin get outed like a chump so soon, Gohan fare better but still ultimately accomplish less than his potential, while 17 keeps getting cool moments and lasts into the top 6? It's almost like buildup of a character is inversely proportional to their role in the tournament. Obviously power levels are a factor here as well, but why do we still allow them so much leeway? With the exception of Master Roshi outlasting Krillin and Tien, the elimination order for Universe 7 reads like a 13-year old DB Wiki contributors "My DBS Power Levels" list.

So has 17, it just wasn't a in your face as Gohan. And Gohan still got the biggest BS power boost this arc, yet fans still complained about him being underpowered.

It's not exactly a competition of who got the biggest BS boost in this arc, but I'll take Gohan's detailed training episode and explicitly characterised resolve (which was set up in Resurrection F, so it's not like it happened all in a day) over 17's "hey, you haven't seen me in decades but I reached SSB level beating up poachers no really tho". And I'll take them both over Vegeta's completely unnecessary and underwhelming transformation from last episode.

I don't even care about characters being under or over-powered, so much as I care about an inability to follow through with character arcs or properly pay off a story hook. These characters don't have to get big transformations for me to like them (frankly, anything that comes after Ultra Instinct would be underwhelming, which is one of many reasons why "Super Saiyan Royal Blue" sucks) but if I had to choose between Vegeta or Gohan, I'd choose Gohan because it would be more meaningful. And if it came down to who should be eliminated first from Universe 7 to clear the field for the Gods characters, I'd choose 17 before Gohan because 17 has more than earned his stripes, while Gohan still had potential.

[TheSaiyanGod]

No he doesn't. Vegeta has next to no build up or anything for this arc. His only story arc he had was not wanting to enter because Bra wasn't born....that's it. That was the only real ongoing story he had. After that nothing. He gets a new form just cause...and that's it. A transformation is a satisfying pay off. But this transformation is a satisfying pay off to NOTHING. Hell even the motivation they give Vegeta for what he got was in the literal same episode he got it. Not something built up as his own goal. It was actually Gohan's goal, which Vegeta magically ended up stealing just cause. It's literally the equivalent of TFS Vegeta how he got Super Saiyan, they basically took that and tried to make it serious.

Vegeta has his family to protect (Bulma, Bra and Trunks) and made a promise to Kyabe to revive the universe 6 if he wins the tournament (ie he is certainly carrying a big burden after the universe 6 is erased, which increases even more the construction of the character).
I agree that he received much less hype than Gohan, but like I said, that does not mean anything, since Roshi practically received no hype and still fought well.

Vegeta on SSB had used everything he could and could not defeat Jiren. If he did not get any further transformation, then he would only be a nuisance against Jiren in this fight and would be useless. The transformation also served to match him to Goku's SSB KK.

Gohan is out of the fights for years, returned to training 1 day before the tournament began and overcame his peak, and yet received a lot of episodes focused on him, in addition to having the second largest screen time of the tournament. I do not know why they're complaining about him.
It makes no sense for him to receive a new transformation with no effort, Vegeta is training much more than him.
Vegeta even said that he wants to overcome his limits and defeat Jiren in his own way, so he is also looking for it

-The family never really mentioned at all or on his mind as a big driving point.
-The boy he basically met for like a day and even then in the middle of the tournament.

-Something clear in the literal episode itself...and that's it. Not at any point was it a big focal point to Vegeta before then.
-It is still useless as it has no effect on Jiren at all. Neither of them do. Getting Vegeta up to Goku SSBKK level doesn't do squat. It just gives him a power up and that's it. A power up for the most unsatisfying of reasons.

It makes sense because of his potential, and because of his story arc. And yes it didn't make sense how he got that strong so fast, but neither did Rage Trunks either. Rage Trunks was given that form because it was a satisfying pay off to the shit he went through. He was beaten up, haunted, and useless. Now he finally has a power that can help when he watched his mom die in front of him before helplessly. Rage Trunks was shit down power up, but the reason for him having said power up is sound for why it was put in. It just could have been written better is all.

Would you be ok if in the Black arc Vegeta talks about ascending beyond Super Saiyan Blue, and that he will surpass Goku....but then Trunks mentions the same thing in one episode, and then transforms into rage and what Vegeta said never happens. Cause that's basically what just happened here. Vegeta says exactly what Gohan says and gets his form in the same episode. Even if anyone wants to call this a set up, it's a really shit one. There was no time to really long for it. No time to get hyped for the idea. It was just "Oh I'd really like a new form, oh shit I got it sweet."

If Gohan got a new form would it have been well written, no. It still would have the same problems Rage Trunks had. Would it have made for at least a fitting conclusion to his character arc, yes. Would it have felt earned, probably not as did Rage Trunks. But it's better to have an arc than just be handed one, when it's just overshadowed by Ultra Instinct anyways.

Is it necessary to mention that he is also fighting for his family? His last look at Bulma before he goes to the tournament says it all.

It does not matter if he met Kyabe one day, they created a great bond and Vegeta made him a promise, and with Kyabe's death, he's carrying a big burden for it. Not to mention that it's basically as if he's struggling to relive the entire Saiyajins race again, a race he's had for a long time on U7, that's also a motivation.

What exactly is Gohan's desire in this saga? This has not even been explored (he fights for his family just like Vegeta. This was shown in the exhibition tournament), and why does he need a new transformation to complete the story arc of the character? He has potential but returned to training shortly. He looks for something new, but that does not mean he has to get it now. And he just quoted it in one episode, just as Vegeta just said he wanted to get stronger in his own way recently. The point is that Vegeta is training to get stronger a lot of time, and it does not matter if he does not explicitly say he wants to get a new transformation, the point is that he is training hard.

There is no reason why Gohan should get it now without any explanation.

Trunks had a motivation to get stronger, but the power up he received was simply absurd, and in no way matches the training he got. That is why it was forced, in addition to having had no explanation

[perucho1990]

Some felt that Gohan needed to defeat Toppo to make up his embarrasing performances from the first 2 arcs.

[dbzfan7]

Vegeta has his family to protect (Bulma, Bra and Trunks) and made a promise to Kyabe to revive the universe 6 if he wins the tournament (ie he is certainly carrying a big burden after the universe 6 is erased, which increases even more the construction of the character).
I agree that he received much less hype than Gohan, but like I said, that does not mean anything, since Roshi practically received no hype and still fought well.

Vegeta on SSB had used everything he could and could not defeat Jiren. If he did not get any further transformation, then he would only be a nuisance against Jiren in this fight and would be useless. The transformation also served to match him to Goku's SSB KK.

Gohan is out of the fights for years, returned to training 1 day before the tournament began and overcame his peak, and yet received a lot of episodes focused on him, in addition to having the second largest screen time of the tournament. I do not know why they're complaining about him.
It makes no sense for him to receive a new transformation with no effort, Vegeta is training much more than him.
Vegeta even said that he wants to overcome his limits and defeat Jiren in his own way, so he is also looking for it

-The family never really mentioned at all or on his mind as a big driving point.
-The boy he basically met for like a day and even then in the middle of the tournament.

-Something clear in the literal episode itself...and that's it. Not at any point was it a big focal point to Vegeta before then.
-It is still useless as it has no effect on Jiren at all. Neither of them do. Getting Vegeta up to Goku SSBKK level doesn't do squat. It just gives him a power up and that's it. A power up for the most unsatisfying of reasons.

It makes sense because of his potential, and because of his story arc. And yes it didn't make sense how he got that strong so fast, but neither did Rage Trunks either. Rage Trunks was given that form because it was a satisfying pay off to the shit he went through. He was beaten up, haunted, and useless. Now he finally has a power that can help when he watched his mom die in front of him before helplessly. Rage Trunks was shit down power up, but the reason for him having said power up is sound for why it was put in. It just could have been written better is all.

Would you be ok if in the Black arc Vegeta talks about ascending beyond Super Saiyan Blue, and that he will surpass Goku....but then Trunks mentions the same thing in one episode, and then transforms into rage and what Vegeta said never happens. Cause that's basically what just happened here. Vegeta says exactly what Gohan says and gets his form in the same episode. Even if anyone wants to call this a set up, it's a really shit one. There was no time to really long for it. No time to get hyped for the idea. It was just "Oh I'd really like a new form, oh shit I got it sweet."

If Gohan got a new form would it have been well written, no. It still would have the same problems Rage Trunks had. Would it have made for at least a fitting conclusion to his character arc, yes. Would it have felt earned, probably not as did Rage Trunks. But it's better to have an arc than just be handed one, when it's just overshadowed by Ultra Instinct anyways.

Is it necessary to mention that he is also fighting for his family? His last look at Bulma before he goes to the tournament says it all.

It does not matter if he met Kyabe one day, they created a great bond and Vegeta made him a promise, and with Kyabe's death, he's carrying a big burden for it. Not to mention that it's basically as if he's struggling to relive the entire Saiyajins race again, a race he's had for a long time on U7, that's also a motivation.

What exactly is Gohan's desire in this saga? This has not even been explored (he fights for his family just like Vegeta. This was shown in the exhibition tournament), and why does he need a new transformation to complete the story arc of the character? He has potential but returned to training shortly. He looks for something new, but that does not mean he has to get it now. And he just quoted it in one episode, just as Vegeta just said he wanted to get stronger in his own way recently. The point is that Vegeta is training to get stronger a lot of time, and it does not matter if he does not explicitly say he wants to get a new transformation, the point is that he is training hard.

There is no reason why Gohan should get it now without any explanation.

Trunks had a motivation to get stronger, but the power up he received was simply absurd, and in no way matches the training he got. That is why it was forced, in addition to having had no explanation

Yes because apparently Cabba is more important than they are. The boy he knew for like a day is more important than his family.

A great bond? Their bond is merely a racial thing...that's it. If he weren't a saiyan it would mean nothing. Even when they bring something like that up it's dropped again in favour of random cell arc spieling.

Uh yes he has something to protect which unlike Vegeta, he actually constantly refers back to. He proclaimed he would seek a ultimate form no one has ever seen, which Vegeta never mentions until the very episode he gets one. Because fuck it. He mentions not wanting to be a failure again like before. He is taught by Piccolo to not do his usual fuck up shtick.

If it was simply about training hard, then everyone would have surpassed Beerus by now. It's not merely about who trains harder or longer. Tenshinhan trains a ton and he still gets jack shit. The trigger was so lame and thrown right in because fuck it. If it was so simple as just train hard, then these forms would be coming out the wood work since it's all they ever do. But that's not the key to these new forms at all. It's not about training hard. It's about emotional response and drastic cornering.

He has far more reason than Vegeta has, who has merely been doing his same shtick the whole time, whined just once about something that never came across his mind before, and was immediately rewarded for it.

Literally the same thing Vegeta just got. An absurd random form, except with even less reason than Trunks as it serves even less purpose. It's far less satisfyiing cause he didn't earn the form through some new interesting, unique, or satisfying way/story arc. He just fucking got it because fuck it why not...

[TheSaiyanGod]

-The family never really mentioned at all or on his mind as a big driving point.
-The boy he basically met for like a day and even then in the middle of the tournament.

-Something clear in the literal episode itself...and that's it. Not at any point was it a big focal point to Vegeta before then.
-It is still useless as it has no effect on Jiren at all. Neither of them do. Getting Vegeta up to Goku SSBKK level doesn't do squat. It just gives him a power up and that's it. A power up for the most unsatisfying of reasons.

It makes sense because of his potential, and because of his story arc. And yes it didn't make sense how he got that strong so fast, but neither did Rage Trunks either. Rage Trunks was given that form because it was a satisfying pay off to the shit he went through. He was beaten up, haunted, and useless. Now he finally has a power that can help when he watched his mom die in front of him before helplessly. Rage Trunks was shit down power up, but the reason for him having said power up is sound for why it was put in. It just could have been written better is all.

Would you be ok if in the Black arc Vegeta talks about ascending beyond Super Saiyan Blue, and that he will surpass Goku....but then Trunks mentions the same thing in one episode, and then transforms into rage and what Vegeta said never happens. Cause that's basically what just happened here. Vegeta says exactly what Gohan says and gets his form in the same episode. Even if anyone wants to call this a set up, it's a really shit one. There was no time to really long for it. No time to get hyped for the idea. It was just "Oh I'd really like a new form, oh shit I got it sweet."

If Gohan got a new form would it have been well written, no. It still would have the same problems Rage Trunks had. Would it have made for at least a fitting conclusion to his character arc, yes. Would it have felt earned, probably not as did Rage Trunks. But it's better to have an arc than just be handed one, when it's just overshadowed by Ultra Instinct anyways.

Is it necessary to mention that he is also fighting for his family? His last look at Bulma before he goes to the tournament says it all.

It does not matter if he met Kyabe one day, they created a great bond and Vegeta made him a promise, and with Kyabe's death, he's carrying a big burden for it. Not to mention that it's basically as if he's struggling to relive the entire Saiyajins race again, a race he's had for a long time on U7, that's also a motivation.

What exactly is Gohan's desire in this saga? This has not even been explored (he fights for his family just like Vegeta. This was shown in the exhibition tournament), and why does he need a new transformation to complete the story arc of the character? He has potential but returned to training shortly. He looks for something new, but that does not mean he has to get it now. And he just quoted it in one episode, just as Vegeta just said he wanted to get stronger in his own way recently. The point is that Vegeta is training to get stronger a lot of time, and it does not matter if he does not explicitly say he wants to get a new transformation, the point is that he is training hard.

There is no reason why Gohan should get it now without any explanation.

Trunks had a motivation to get stronger, but the power up he received was simply absurd, and in no way matches the training he got. That is why it was forced, in addition to having had no explanation

Yes because apparently Cabba is more important than they are. The boy he knew for like a day is more important than his family.

A great bond? Their bond is merely a racial thing...that's it. If he weren't a saiyan it would mean nothing. Even when they bring something like that up it's dropped again in favour of random cell arc spieling.

Uh yes he has something to protect which unlike Vegeta, he actually constantly refers back to. He proclaimed he would seek a ultimate form no one has ever seen, which Vegeta never mentions until the very episode he gets one. Because fuck it. He mentions not wanting to be a failure again like before. He is taught by Piccolo to not do his usual fuck up shtick.

If it was simply about training hard, then everyone would have surpassed Beerus by now. It's not merely about who trains harder or longer. Tenshinhan trains a ton and he still gets jack shit. The trigger was so lame and thrown right in because fuck it. If it was so simple as just train hard, then these forms would be coming out the wood work since it's all they ever do. But that's not the key to these new forms at all. It's not about training hard. It's about emotional response and drastic cornering.

He has far more reason than Vegeta has, who has merely been doing his same shtick the whole time, whined just once about something that never came across his mind before, and was immediately rewarded for it.

Literally the same thing Vegeta just got. An absurd random form, except with even less reason than Trunks as it serves even less purpose. It's far less satisfyiing cause he didn't earn the form through some new interesting, unique, or satisfying way/story arc. He just fucking got it because fuck it why not...

So why would Gohan deserve a new transformation? How much did he train or look for? Because he basically says that with a few hours left before the tournament starts, he does not even have much time to reach

What is his big motivation in this tournament, besides his family? What is his desire with the SDB, in case he won? None of this has been explored, and no, he does not fight to protect more people than Vegeta. Both fight for their families, taking the fact that Vegeta is now also fighting for Kyabe and all the Saiyans of U6.

Vegeta thought of Kyabe because he is already dead, and because he promised that he would revive all of U6, that is, he carries a burden. That is why he has attained his new form.
It does not mean he does not think of his family. So, does Gohan also not fight for his family in this tournament? After all, we had no scene of him thinking about her

Gohan just said he was looking for a supreme form in one episode. Then he never said that again. So it's no different from Vegeta's situation

If Vegeta did not get a new form, then he would be a nuisance in the fight against Jiren and would not be able to do anything against him (after getting this new form, Goku and Vegeta are managing to push Jiren, which he did not do before).

[dbzfan7]

Is it necessary to mention that he is also fighting for his family? His last look at Bulma before he goes to the tournament says it all.

It does not matter if he met Kyabe one day, they created a great bond and Vegeta made him a promise, and with Kyabe's death, he's carrying a big burden for it. Not to mention that it's basically as if he's struggling to relive the entire Saiyajins race again, a race he's had for a long time on U7, that's also a motivation.

What exactly is Gohan's desire in this saga? This has not even been explored (he fights for his family just like Vegeta. This was shown in the exhibition tournament), and why does he need a new transformation to complete the story arc of the character? He has potential but returned to training shortly. He looks for something new, but that does not mean he has to get it now. And he just quoted it in one episode, just as Vegeta just said he wanted to get stronger in his own way recently. The point is that Vegeta is training to get stronger a lot of time, and it does not matter if he does not explicitly say he wants to get a new transformation, the point is that he is training hard.

There is no reason why Gohan should get it now without any explanation.

Trunks had a motivation to get stronger, but the power up he received was simply absurd, and in no way matches the training he got. That is why it was forced, in addition to having had no explanation

Yes because apparently Cabba is more important than they are. The boy he knew for like a day is more important than his family.

A great bond? Their bond is merely a racial thing...that's it. If he weren't a saiyan it would mean nothing. Even when they bring something like that up it's dropped again in favour of random cell arc spieling.

Uh yes he has something to protect which unlike Vegeta, he actually constantly refers back to. He proclaimed he would seek a ultimate form no one has ever seen, which Vegeta never mentions until the very episode he gets one. Because fuck it. He mentions not wanting to be a failure again like before. He is taught by Piccolo to not do his usual fuck up shtick.

If it was simply about training hard, then everyone would have surpassed Beerus by now. It's not merely about who trains harder or longer. Tenshinhan trains a ton and he still gets jack shit. The trigger was so lame and thrown right in because fuck it. If it was so simple as just train hard, then these forms would be coming out the wood work since it's all they ever do. But that's not the key to these new forms at all. It's not about training hard. It's about emotional response and drastic cornering.

He has far more reason than Vegeta has, who has merely been doing his same shtick the whole time, whined just once about something that never came across his mind before, and was immediately rewarded for it.

Literally the same thing Vegeta just got. An absurd random form, except with even less reason than Trunks as it serves even less purpose. It's far less satisfyiing cause he didn't earn the form through some new interesting, unique, or satisfying way/story arc. He just fucking got it because fuck it why not...

So why would Gohan deserve a new transformation? How much did he train or look for? Because he basically says that with a few hours left before the tournament starts, he does not even have much time to reach

What is his big motivation in this tournament, besides his family? What is his desire with the SDB, in case he won? None of this has been explored, and no, he does not fight to protect more people than Vegeta. Both fight for their families, taking the fact that Vegeta is now also fighting for Kyabe and all the Saiyans of U6.

Vegeta thought of Kyabe because he is already dead, and because he promised that he would revive all of U6, that is, he carries a burden. That is why he has attained his new form.
It does not mean he does not think of his family. So, does Gohan also not fight for his family in this tournament? After all, we had no scene of him thinking about her

Gohan just said he was looking for a supreme form in one episode. Then he never said that again. So it's no different from Vegeta's situation

If Vegeta did not get a new form, then he would be a nuisance in the fight against Jiren and would not be able to do anything against him (after getting this new form, Goku and Vegeta are managing to push Jiren, which he did not do before).

To fulfill the character arc we were set up with since like episode 30 of Dragon Ball Super. As well as the expansion in 90 or 88. Whichever it was. Of course he wouldn't reach it in training time, but through hardships in the tournament itself. You know to fulfill a character arc. A beginning, middle, and end. Not just a beginning, middle, and then cold shoulder.

He fights more than just to protect his family, he fights to make up for how much he has failed lately. He has commented on how powerless he was. The Super Dragon Balls are not what he is after. He wants to not be a burden no more. He doesn't want to be that green tracksuit guy who got destroyed by Freeza, nor that guy who Future Trunks couldn't confide in because he'd be too weak to be of use anyways.

He does think about them, hell he relects on them and his actions when beating Obuni. Vegeta NEVER thought of his family. At all. They were so unimportant in comparison that a boy he knew for a day was more of a trigger than the thought of his new born baby girl being wiped out. A boy he only has a racial tie to and nothing else.

What Gohan said was a set up before the tournament and also apart of his desire to not be a burden no more. That's why he got angry at his dad for not taking him seriously. Because he would never get anywhere if he never went all out even if he'd lose. Gohan's story is a coming of age arc after falling from grace. A story of a person who took his peace too much for granted, and almost paid for it. Vegeta's story is nothing. It doesn't revolve around Universe 6, it just happens to happens to just coincide with the one thing he actually said a bunch of times in the tournament. To be the winner. To be the best. The thing he said way more than anything else.

He is still a nuisance. Merely having his own base Super Saiyan Blue form be above Goku's is more than enough as it's not like it wasn't already in the Black Arc where he did much better against Black than Goku ever did. Him having a new form is utterly pointless, especially when Jiren is holding back so much that once he actually gets serious, it'll take Ultra Instinct to do anything with Vegeta being nothing again since SSJBKK is nothing to Jiren anyways. All he's done with Goku is push Jiren...that's it. Not even hurt him in the slightest.

Hell Freeza deserves an upgrade more than Vegeta does. He has more ties to the central plot, an ongoing theme, and he had been doing training too. He arguably has even more story significance than Gohan too.

[omaro34]

Not one rage boost from Gohan all tournament. He was fighting for the existence of everything he loves.

And not one rage boost which Gohan was known for in past arcs.

Such a letdown.

[Kagari]

Not one rage boost from Gohan all tournament. He was fighting for the existence of everything he loves.

And not one rage boost which Gohan was known for in past arcs.

Such a letdown.

You weren't paying attention to episode 88 then. Piccolo beat that mentality out of him.

[precita]

Gohan didn't get one single new transformation in all of Super, yet Goku got 3 (4 if you count Blue Kaio-ken), and Vegeta got 2. Even Future Trunks got something new.

Stick a fork in him, Toriyama is done with Gohan. They couldn't even throw him a bone.

[Kagari]

Gohan didn't get one single new transformation in all of Super, yet Goku got 3 (4 if you count Blue Kaio-ken), and Vegeta got 2. Even Future Trunks got something new.

Stick a fork in him, Toriyama is done with Gohan. They couldn't even throw him a bone.

Gohan got boosted to Blue level out of no where. You can't really complain.

[Ki Breaker]

Gohan was A-MAZING this arc, every battle he won was with a combination of brains and brawns right up till the very end..
Golden Freeza would have been screwed if Gohan hadn't come along..
That was good gohan, you did good..

[ShinTenshin]

Gohan didn't get one single new transformation in all of Super, yet Goku got 3 (4 if you count Blue Kaio-ken), and Vegeta got 2. Even Future Trunks got something new.

Stick a fork in him, Toriyama is done with Gohan. They couldn't even throw him a bone.

Gohan got boosted to Blue level out of no where. You can't really complain.

Don't forget than Goku Blue VS Gohan seems to be Toei exclusive as that thing doesn't appear in the Manga.
So for Toriyama script it's most likely filler.
By the way, it was a very bad move because at the end, Toei was obligated to respect the power level from the author.
As a result, Gohan appear to be an ant against a restrained Toppo, to be honest he was really ridiculous.

The same restrained Toppo has a hard time against Goku or Vegeta Blue, so Ultimate is nothing but a trash compared to SS Blue.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Yes because apparently Cabba is more important than they are. The boy he knew for like a day is more important than his family.

A great bond? Their bond is merely a racial thing...that's it. If he weren't a saiyan it would mean nothing. Even when they bring something like that up it's dropped again in favour of random cell arc spieling.

Uh yes he has something to protect which unlike Vegeta, he actually constantly refers back to. He proclaimed he would seek a ultimate form no one has ever seen, which Vegeta never mentions until the very episode he gets one. Because fuck it. He mentions not wanting to be a failure again like before. He is taught by Piccolo to not do his usual fuck up shtick.

If it was simply about training hard, then everyone would have surpassed Beerus by now. It's not merely about who trains harder or longer. Tenshinhan trains a ton and he still gets jack shit. The trigger was so lame and thrown right in because fuck it. If it was so simple as just train hard, then these forms would be coming out the wood work since it's all they ever do. But that's not the key to these new forms at all. It's not about training hard. It's about emotional response and drastic cornering.

He has far more reason than Vegeta has, who has merely been doing his same shtick the whole time, whined just once about something that never came across his mind before, and was immediately rewarded for it.

Literally the same thing Vegeta just got. An absurd random form, except with even less reason than Trunks as it serves even less purpose. It's far less satisfyiing cause he didn't earn the form through some new interesting, unique, or satisfying way/story arc. He just fucking got it because fuck it why not...

So why would Gohan deserve a new transformation? How much did he train or look for? Because he basically says that with a few hours left before the tournament starts, he does not even have much time to reach

What is his big motivation in this tournament, besides his family? What is his desire with the SDB, in case he won? None of this has been explored, and no, he does not fight to protect more people than Vegeta. Both fight for their families, taking the fact that Vegeta is now also fighting for Kyabe and all the Saiyans of U6.

Vegeta thought of Kyabe because he is already dead, and because he promised that he would revive all of U6, that is, he carries a burden. That is why he has attained his new form.
It does not mean he does not think of his family. So, does Gohan also not fight for his family in this tournament? After all, we had no scene of him thinking about her

Gohan just said he was looking for a supreme form in one episode. Then he never said that again. So it's no different from Vegeta's situation

If Vegeta did not get a new form, then he would be a nuisance in the fight against Jiren and would not be able to do anything against him (after getting this new form, Goku and Vegeta are managing to push Jiren, which he did not do before).

To fulfill the character arc we were set up with since like episode 30 of Dragon Ball Super. As well as the expansion in 90 or 88. Whichever it was. Of course he wouldn't reach it in training time, but through hardships in the tournament itself. You know to fulfill a character arc. A beginning, middle, and end. Not just a beginning, middle, and then cold shoulder.

He fights more than just to protect his family, he fights to make up for how much he has failed lately. He has commented on how powerless he was. The Super Dragon Balls are not what he is after. He wants to not be a burden no more. He doesn't want to be that green tracksuit guy who got destroyed by Freeza, nor that guy who Future Trunks couldn't confide in because he'd be too weak to be of use anyways.

He does think about them, hell he relects on them and his actions when beating Obuni. Vegeta NEVER thought of his family. At all. They were so unimportant in comparison that a boy he knew for a day was more of a trigger than the thought of his new born baby girl being wiped out. A boy he only has a racial tie to and nothing else.

What Gohan said was a set up before the tournament and also apart of his desire to not be a burden no more. That's why he got angry at his dad for not taking him seriously. Because he would never get anywhere if he never went all out even if he'd lose. Gohan's story is a coming of age arc after falling from grace. A story of a person who took his peace too much for granted, and almost paid for it. Vegeta's story is nothing. It doesn't revolve around Universe 6, it just happens to happens to just coincide with the one thing he actually said a bunch of times in the tournament. To be the winner. To be the best. The thing he said way more than anything else.

He is still a nuisance. Merely having his own base Super Saiyan Blue form be above Goku's is more than enough as it's not like it wasn't already in the Black Arc where he did much better against Black than Goku ever did. Him having a new form is utterly pointless, especially when Jiren is holding back so much that once he actually gets serious, it'll take Ultra Instinct to do anything with Vegeta being nothing again since SSJBKK is nothing to Jiren anyways. All he's done with Goku is push Jiren...that's it. Not even hurt him in the slightest.

Hell Freeza deserves an upgrade more than Vegeta does. He has more ties to the central plot, an ongoing theme, and he had been doing training too. He arguably has even more story significance than Gohan too.

Most of the things you said were just lessons that Piccolo gave to Gohan in training, not a reason why he fights in this tournament. He understood his weaknesses and struggled to improve them, this is not a motivation or the reason he wants to participate in the tournament.
The main reason he fights now is for his family, and he made that clear before attending the Exhibition tournament

And we all know that Gohan never wanted to be a fighter. He is doing this now out of necessity, and as a consequence he is trying to fix his previous failures in the tournament, that's all. It does not mean that the character's arc is to return the struggles, redeem themselves and simply get a new transformation and overcome everyone again.
And the only time that Gohan is apparently thinking of his family is against Obuni. At no other time do we see that being his motivation, so there's no need to complain about it with Vegeta (though it's clear he's both fighting for his family, and that does not have to be shown).

And Jiren in this fight is using more power than against UI Goku, meaning Vegeta and Goku are facing a much stronger Jiren and are managing to pressure him.
This shows the evolution of the two and would not be able if only Goku fought alone, it was necessary for Vegeta to get something new, in addition to match the SSB KK.

Freeza deserves another upgrade than Vegeta? The same guy who spent 1 year in hell training mentally? He does not even want to face Jiren, just save energy and be the last to stay in the arena.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Gohan didn't get one single new transformation in all of Super, yet Goku got 3 (4 if you count Blue Kaio-ken), and Vegeta got 2. Even Future Trunks got something new.

Stick a fork in him, Toriyama is done with Gohan. They couldn't even throw him a bone.

Gohan got boosted to Blue level out of no where. You can't really complain.

Don't forget than Goku Blue VS Gohan seems to be Toei exclusive as that thing doesn't appear in the Manga.
So for Toriyama script it's most likely filler.
By the way, it was a very bad move because at the end, Toei was obligated to respect the power level from the author.
As a result, Gohan appear to be an ant against a restrained Toppo, to be honest he was really ridiculous.

The same restrained Toppo has a hard time against Goku or Vegeta Blue, so Ultimate is nothing but a trash compared to SS Blue.

Doesnt matter if its toei exclusive, this inst dbz. Anything that happens in the anime is canon

[Bullza]

With Super surely ending before the time skip I have to wonder if the ending will be tweaked in a way so that it can still fit with GT somehow.

Not likely but I do wonder.