Unpopular DB opinions

[ABED]

Harm isn't the same as murder. It may have been his desire, but there's the dream and then there's the reality and the point was that he didn't have a taste for it, and he's never had a match quite like the ones he had against either Muten Roshi or Goku. He could see that meant more to him than the feeling he got from hurting Yamcha. He was fundamentally different than his masters. And if I recall, there is a point in the finals where the Crane Hermit does in fact threaten to hurt Chaozu. I don't see how the elements aren't there for a satisfactory character arc.

It certainly isn't, considering that appealing to the fact that martial arts should be used for more noble practices is what Roshi says to convince Tenshinhan of his wrongdoings.

But it's Muten Roshi's belief of what constitutes noble ends that matters. Part of Roshi's speech wasn't merely "you should do good instead of bad." It was also about being an honorable warrior. Tenshinhan couldn't comprehend why Roshi would give up. His reasons had nothing to do with being good, it was because he was satisfied by the next generation having arrived. It was all about being a warrior for the sake of being a warrior, as opposed to being a warrior to have power over others or be a more effective assassin.

And if you understand the tropes of the genre, why is that not a satisfactory arc?

[Doctor.]

Part of Roshi's speech wasn't merely "you should do good instead of bad." It was also about being an honorable warrior. Tenshinhan couldn't comprehend why Roshi would give up. His reasons had nothing to do with being good, it was because he was satisfied by the next generation having arrived. It was all about being a warrior for the sake of being a warrior, as opposed to being a warrior to have power over others or be a more effective assassin.

And if you understand the tropes of the genre, why is that not a satisfactory arc?

Sure, part of it may be that, but you're blissfully ignoring the other part where he literally asks "Why do you walk the path of evil?" and tells him to "Walk the path of light" shortly before he gives up. It was just as much about being a good person as it was about being a warrior for the sake of being a warrior. At the detriment of Roshi's arc, Ten's is done better in movie 3 because of his attachment to Chaozu, because not only does he come to the realization he should use martial arts for his own sake instead of following the whims of others, he also realizes that killing and harming others is a bad thing due to his own feelings towards a person that was going to be killed. It fulfills both points of Roshi's preaching in a satisfactory manner. As for the 22nd tournament, sure, you can say that Tenshinhan removed himself from the Crane Hermit's hold due to relishing on the challenge of battle, but what exactly is there besides Roshi's pep talk that makes him see that killing people is bad? You can still enjoy fighting opponents and think there's nothing wrong with inflicting harm and/or killing them. And it's not a case of him only realizing that this isn't the career path for him after actually experiencing what it's like, since he's an experienced fighter and we know he had no problem with needlessly torturing his opponents (again, see: his fight with Yamcha). Again, surely he has heard that evil is bad before. Is it effective this time because he heard it from someone who's strong? Is he just that easily swayed?

I already said why: I like the idea but it feels rushed, abrupt and shallow in the way it was handled and doesn't leave much of a mark. We're not going to agree on this and we're just going on in circles, so we should just end it here. I've said my piece.

[ABED]

Why do I continue with people who claim I'm ignoring a point when I didn't? I never ignored it, I simply said Tenshinhan's reasons for being perplexed by Roshi had nothing to do with being good, at least to that point. It's the confluence of all those things that lead to Tenshinhan.

Not once did I boil his change down to one thing like you are. It's naive to think that just because someone's friend is put in danger that it's more believable they would become a good person. Assholes can also have deep friendships, that doesn't mean they will change because some other asshole threatened them, which by the way also happened in the anime/manga. Another thing I believe is being implied is Tenshinhan went with the Crane Hermit because he believed him to be the most powerful and it would make him the best fighter he could. He sees that's not neccessarily the case and being cruel won't make him the best he can be.

I like the idea but it feels rushed

So because Chaozu was threatened (which also happened in the anime and manga. This can't be stressed enough), a 45 minute arc works better than 18 episodes?

And it has to be said that it wasn't a 180 turn for him. Tenshinhan doesn't go from complete bad guy to complete good guy. Because his reasons are primarily about the code of honor of a martial artist and not about doing the right thing because it's right, it feels more less drastic of a shift than if had been going from good to bad.

[Doctor.]

Why do I continue with people who claim I'm ignoring a point when I didn't? I never ignored it, I simply said Tenshinhan's reasons for being perplexed by Roshi had nothing to do with being good, at least to that point. It's the confluence of all those things that lead to Tenshinhan.

Not once did I boil his change down to one thing like you are. It's naive to think that just because someone's friend is put in danger that it's more believable they would become a good person. Assholes can also have deep friendships, that doesn't mean they will change because some other asshole threatened them, which by the way also happened in the anime/manga.

So because Chaozu was threatened (which also happened in the anime and manga. This can't be stressed enough), a 45 minute arc works better than 18 episodes?

And it has to be said that it wasn't a 180 turn for him. Tenshinhan doesn't go from complete bad guy to complete good guy. Because his reasons are primarily about the code of honor of a martial artist and not about doing the right thing because it's right, it feels more less drastic of a shift than if had been going from good to bad.

Yes, people can have multiple reasons to change. But this is Dragon Ball and, more often than not, they don't. Tenshinhan changed because of Roshi's words, and Roshi's main point was that he should use his power for good instead of evil. It's naive to think there were a multitude of reasons behind it.

I didn't say movie 3 was perfect. But, yes, I do think it's more believable that Ten would change because of the situation he and Chaozu were put through in conjunction with Roshi's words rather than just Roshi's words in conjunction with him finally having a good fight in his life.

Chaozu was threatened in one panel and the Crane Hermit was dealt with by Roshi. Definitely not comparable to a hostage situation where Tenshinhan was the one forced to execute the assassination and was the one who attacked his master in retaliation and desperation.

It's definitely a 180 because he didn't care about honor at all until Roshi got through to him.

I don't understand why you're getting heated.

[ABED]

Why do I continue with people who claim I'm ignoring a point when I didn't? I never ignored it, I simply said Tenshinhan's reasons for being perplexed by Roshi had nothing to do with being good, at least to that point. It's the confluence of all those things that lead to Tenshinhan.

Not once did I boil his change down to one thing like you are. It's naive to think that just because someone's friend is put in danger that it's more believable they would become a good person. Assholes can also have deep friendships, that doesn't mean they will change because some other asshole threatened them, which by the way also happened in the anime/manga.

So because Chaozu was threatened (which also happened in the anime and manga. This can't be stressed enough), a 45 minute arc works better than 18 episodes?

And it has to be said that it wasn't a 180 turn for him. Tenshinhan doesn't go from complete bad guy to complete good guy. Because his reasons are primarily about the code of honor of a martial artist and not about doing the right thing because it's right, it feels more less drastic of a shift than if had been going from good to bad.

Yes, people can have multiple reasons to change. But this is Dragon Ball and, more often than not, they don't. Tenshinhan changed because of Roshi's words, and Roshi's main point was that he should use his power for good instead of evil. It's naive to think there were a multitude of reasons behind it.

I didn't say movie 3 was perfect. But, yes, I do think it's more believable that Ten would change because of the situation he and Chaozu were put through in conjunction with Roshi's words rather than just Roshi's words in conjunction with him finally having a good fight in his life.

Chaozu was threatened in one panel and the Crane Hermit was dealt with by Roshi. Definitely not comparable to a hostage situation where Tenshinhan was the one forced to execute the assassination and was the one who attacked his master in retaliation and desperation.

It's definitely a 180 because he didn't care about honor at all until Roshi got through to him.

I don't understand why you're getting heated.

More often than not doesn't mean they don't have more than one reason. That's your interpretation. Vegeta had a number of reasons why he changed, and so did Piccolo. The fights against Goku and Roshi go against his worldview.

You say it's more believable that protecting Chaozu would lead to a significant change, but once again we come back to assholes can protect their friends. THat doesn't mean they are good guys. And Tenshinhan would've protected Chaozu had Roshi not stepped in. You're splitting hairs.

You say that you get the tropes of the genre and yet your replies show otherwise. It's a show about warriors, everything is filtered through that lens.

The reason I'm getting heated is because I have to constantly arguing by saying their points are being ignored when it's clear they weren't. I didn't ignore anything you wrote. I just disagreed.

[Doctor.]

More often than not doesn't mean they don't have more than one reason. That's your interpretation. Vegeta had a number of reasons why he changed, and so did Piccolo. The fights against Goku and Roshi go against his worldview.

You say it's more believable that protecting Chaozu would lead to a significant change, but once again we come back to assholes can protect their friends. THat doesn't mean they are good guys. And Tenshinhan would've protected Chaozu had Roshi not stepped in. You're splitting hairs.

You say that you get the tropes of the genre and yet your replies show otherwise. It's a show about warriors, everything is filtered through that lens.

The reason I'm getting heated is because I have to constantly deal with people claiming I don't read their posts when my responses show otherwise. i didn't ignore any point you made.

Yes, Vegeta and Piccolo had a number of reasons for their change, mostly because they actually changed over a long period of time. Tenshinhan's change was sudden, it really only came down to one reason. It's not my interpretation, it's what the tournament presents us. Tenshinhan's change is mostly due to Roshi's words getting through to him.

He would have, but he didn't; it doesn't help the arc's narrative if it's Roshi doing it (especially because it just helps corroborate the point that Tenshinhan can't make any decisions for himself and needed Roshi to make it up for him). Tenshinhan defeating Tao Pai Pai in the 23rd tournament is satisfactory because he did it, not because we know he could have done it.

I know about the tropes of the genre, I'm telling you it was a good idea and I keep telling you that despite it being a good idea, it was executed poorly and I prefer movie 3's interpretation of the events. I don't know what else to tell you. You clearly disagree and we've been going in circles for a while now, so what do you hope to accomplish?

[ABED]

Roshi didn't make the decision for him. Tenshinhan telling the Crane Master to leave him alone was him making up his own mind. Sure, Roshi saved Chaozu, but Tenshinhan had already decided to break away from his master, hence why the Crane Hermit was going to kill Chaozu. I see what you mean by Roshi being the one to step in, but I don't think it detracts from Tenshinhan's arc or makes Tenshinhan passive because he had already changed by that point.

Tenshinhan's change was sudden, it really only came down to one reason

Sudden, but he also didn't have as far to go. It would be one thing if he was a genocidal prince or a reincarnated demon king, but we don't know much about Tenshinhan. We know he wanted to be an assassin, but we don't know how far he got in that goal. The changes are different because their starting points are different.

It's not my interpretation, it's what the tournament presents us.

Yes, and it presents us with subtext. It's not particularly deep subtext either, or rather, it's not a big stretch to connect the dots.

so what do you hope to accomplish?

Is this question solely on me to answer? If it is, then I'm not playing that game. It bugs me when people say things like "you always think you're right" or "we're arguing in circles" but put the blame solely on someone else depsite being the other party. You are as much a part of the equation as I am. I will answer if you are willing to.

It's not my interpretation

And then you go on to interpret it.

[Doctor.]

In regards to assholes having friends, that's missing the point entirely. Assassins may have close friends, but assassins aren't supposed to form bonds with their targets. And that's what Tenshinhan did with Chaozu, which proved to him he's not heartless enough to be a killer at the Crane Hermit's command. Tenshinhan shouldn't have allowed himself to become Chaozu's friend in the first place, that was his dilemma.

Roshi didn't make the decision for him. Tenshinhan telling the Crane Master to leave him alone was him making up his own mind. Sure, Roshi saved Chaozu, but Tenshinhan had already decided to break away from his master, hence why the Crane Hermit was going to kill Chaozu. I see what you mean by Roshi being the one to step in, but I don't think it detracts from Tenshinhan's arc or makes Tenshinhan passive because he had already changed by that point.

I don't think it detracts much either (considering that Chaozu being threatened wasn't a big plot point compared to the film, and Ten had already changed by that point whereas the threat to Chaozu was the catalyst for his change in the movie), but we were comparing it to the 3rd film and I think that him being the one that stops Crane and saves Chaozu works much better in regards to his arc with the scenario the film had set up for the characters.

Sudden, but he also didn't have as far to go. It would be one thing if he was a genocidal prince or a reincarnated demon king, but we don't know much about Tenshinhan. We know he wanted to be an assassin, but we don't know how far he got in that goal. The changes are different because their starting points are different.

And it's because we don't know much about Tenshinhan to begin with that his character arc ends up feeling shallow. The tournament is more of Roshi's story than it is Tenshinhan's.

And then you go on to interpret it.

That's more what you're doing. Assuming Tenshinhan has other reasons to change than the ones presented is a personal interpretation. Taking what the story gives you at face value isn't.

Is this question solely on me to answer? If it is, then I'm not playing that game. It bugs me when people say things like "you always think you're right" or "we're arguing in circles" but put the blame solely on someone else depsite being the other party. You are as much a part of the equation as I am. I will answer if you are willing to.

Your initial interest was on whether or not Tenshinhan's arc being underwhelming was a sentiment shared throughout the fandom and I gave you my thoughts on his arc. That's how the discussion started. I'm still responding because you keep responding and I don't really like to keep people hanging, but I don't really understand why some people keep discussions going beyond the point where any possible agreement is possible.

[GamerSkull]

I have another unpopular opinion but this one might actually get me blasted.

Dragon Ball GT > Dragon Ball Super

Admittedly, I haven't finished Super but I'm at the very start of the ToP arc and so far, I've been far more disappointed with the show than I was for GT.

[Noah]

I have another unpopular opinion but this one might actually get me blasted.

Dragon Ball GT > Dragon Ball Super

That's sure unpopular, though for me both series are average at best, with Super being somewhat more interesting than GT at times.

[GamerSkull]

I have another unpopular opinion but this one might actually get me blasted.

Dragon Ball GT > Dragon Ball Super

That's sure unpopular, though for me both series are average at best, with Super being somewhat more interesting than GT at times.

Well, to be fair... I don't especially like a lot of the stuff both of them do.

In fact, I don't even know if I'll ever re-watch Super or not. Same goes for GT.

But if I had to pick one that I enjoyed more... than it'll be GT strangely enough.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

I don't really care about it because it's not my dub but, why would he get an accent only when he transforms? That seems kinda stupid IMO

Schemmel always gives Goku's forms subtle nuances or in cases like SS3/4 not so subtle and since Rosé accentuates the whole "beauty" theme Black has going for him it does make sense. I mean if someone's physical appearance changes to a random pink hair with grey eye's with no expatiation then why does said person's voice being different only being considered stupid?

Changing the voice a bit is one thing but why would he change the accent when his body changes? That's not how accents work lol

People's hair don't randomly turn pink either.

Why is someone's voice changing the thing that breaks illusion?

[emi_b7]

Schemmel always gives Goku's forms subtle nuances or in cases like SS3/4 not so subtle and since Rosé accentuates the whole "beauty" theme Black has going for him it does make sense. I mean if someone's physical appearance changes to a random pink hair with grey eye's with no expatiation then why does said person's voice being different only being considered stupid?

Changing the voice a bit is one thing but why would he change the accent when his body changes? That's not how accents work lol

People's hair don't randomly turn pink either.

Why is someone's voice changing the thing that breaks illusion?

That's just such a conversation killer, you can dismiss any criticism without actually addressing what the other person says with that vague defense.

Anyway, I never said it was really that big of a deal, I just think it's a stupid change of the "why would you do that?" variety, especially because they added some BS lore to explain it. You think otherwise, good for you.

[Tian]

I don't think that giving Toppo a "God of Destruction" form was a good idea. He already can kick ass without it.

[Travis Touchdown]

Now that Super is ending, I feel like I can fully come to the conclusion that GT as a sequel to Z is far better. Super commits all of the same sins of GT with plot holes, inconsistencies, bad animation episodes, nobody really matters aside from Goku & Vegeta and weird and power scaling but does everything way worse than GT.

Super largely enforces the joke about Dragon Ball in that it has a bunch of new Super Saiyan transformations. Super has pushed 5 with god, Blue, Blue 2, Rose and Rage. One could argue the inclusion of Ultra Instinct, but I’m discussing specifically Super Saiyan forms and I’m under the understanding that anyone could possibly achieve UI. GT only had arguably 2: Golden’s Oozaru (which is largely not counted for some reason) and Super Saiyan 4. Super Saiyan 4 is a far more interesting form than all of Super’s transformations which have just been recolors of existing forms which comes off as lazy.

GT’s arcs are more interesting for the most part. Some are rehashes (I’m looking at you Super 17 arc), but Super literally rehashes the two new films which was largely unnecessary. The Future Trunks arc, to me, felt like a rehash of The History of Trunks but with Turles as the main enemy. We already had an Evil Goku story with Tree of Might and we already saw Trunks’ world devastated and saved by him.

Most would agree that Z’s ending left much to be desired. GT gave the series that perfect cap with Goku’s final farewell and hope for the future with Goku Jr. and Vegeta Jr.

My favorite thing about Super was that it made me appreciate GT so much more.

That’s probably the most unpopular Dragon Ball opinion out there and I’m pretty sure I stand alone in that line of thinking.

(Disclaimer: I’m not saying I hate Super. I’ve enjoyed it for what it is: more Dragon Ball. I’m just saying as a sequel or continuation of the story, I prefer GT.)

[GamerSkull]

Now that Super is ending, I feel like I can fully come to the conclusion that GT as a sequel to Z is far better. Super commits all of the same sins of GT with plot holes, inconsistencies, bad animation episodes, nobody really matters aside from Goku & Vegeta and weird and power scaling but does everything way worse than GT.

Super largely enforces the joke about Dragon Ball in that it has a bunch of new Super Saiyan transformations. Super has pushed 5 with god, Blue, Blue 2, Rose and Rage. One could argue the inclusion of Ultra Instinct, but I’m discussing specifically Super Saiyan forms and I’m under the understanding that anyone could possibly achieve UI. GT only had arguably 2: Golden’s Oozaru (which is largely not counted for some reason) and Super Saiyan 4. Super Saiyan 4 is a far more interesting form than all of Super’s transformations which have just been recolors of existing forms which comes off as lazy.

GT’s arcs are more interesting for the most part. Some are rehashes (I’m looking at you Super 17 arc), but Super literally rehashes the two new films which was largely unnecessary. The Future Trunks arc, to me, felt like a rehash of The History of Trunks but with Turles as the main enemy. We already had an Evil Goku story with Tree of Might and we already saw Trunks’ world devastated and saved by him.

Most would agree that Z’s ending left much to be desired. GT gave the series that perfect cap with Goku’s final farewell and hope for the future with Goku Jr. and Vegeta Jr.

My favorite thing about Super was that it made me appreciate GT so much more.

That’s probably the most unpopular Dragon Ball opinion out there and I’m pretty sure I stand alone in that line of thinking.

(Disclaimer: I’m not saying I hate Super. I’ve enjoyed it for what it is: more Dragon Ball. I’m just saying as a sequel or continuation of the story, I prefer GT.)

You’re not alone. I agree with those sentiments entirely.

I enjoy DBS for what it is but I felt that GT was much better spin-off/sequel despite its own faults.

That being said, both shows have major issues to me.

[ulisa]

Okay I have a feeling I’ll get hounded for some of these but eh—

GT is better than Super—-In truth, there are things I LIKE about Super, primarily the slice-of-life stuff, Goku Black (in theory anyway) and the fight between a Gohan and Goku in episode 90 is great but as an overall story, I just found GT more entertaining. I particularly like how the Shadow Dragons Arc (though not without its flaws) plays out and draws the series to a close. I was never a fan of the original Z ending and I much prefer GT’s. It’s not perfect but out of the two, I feel it’s the better one.

Also even though in Super, they’re fighting for the survival of their universe, the stakes FELT higher in GT against Omega/Syn Shenron. The overall atmosphere has more weight to it and the sacrifices feel more heavy. Piccolo’s death in particular I found a thousand times more moving than his death in Super.

I think also that the fact that final arc in Super is about survival and then using the Dragonballs whereas the final arc in GT is about survival and NOT BEING ABLE to use the Dragonballs adds more drama to it. There’s a finality to knowing what use of the Dragonballs has done and why they have to go away. Death and danger have punch again.

Lastly, I just love how they characterize Goku in GT. Is he given way too much screen time over the other characters, yes but it feels so much more like a continuation from the character at the end of Z than Super does. Super feels like they are just embracing his child self and not taking into account what he’s loved through, learned and done over the years. GT Goku despite being in a child body FEELS AND SOUNDS like a mature warrior that has been through the ringer and knows his way around the battlefield and I don’t really get that with Super. Plus, much as I like Super Saiyan God/Blue...Super Saiyan 4 is Just awesome.


I don’t think Gohan fits to be a scholar —-I don’t buy it, I just don’t. I realize that this is the angle they went with but from a character development angle, it never made any sense to me. Gohan states at the beginning that he wants to be a scholar but that has always sounded rehearsed to me. It sounds like something his mother kept repeating and pushing so he decided to go along with it to please her. His character traits to me point more toward someone that enjoys nature, animals, likes to explore and enjoys the martial arts if not the battles. Gohan has been shown to have some of that Saiyan battle lust, it just isn’t triggered by the same things as his father. I always thought Gohan would have fun being a martial arts teacher and exploring different things he could do with ki. That seemed to be the best combo of earthling and human traits.

Okay, this one is likely going to get me roasted but I’m sorry, it’s one I’m pretty passionate about—While not perfect, I think Goku is a better parent than ChiChi

Let me make something real clear—I’m not saying ChiChi is a bad parent. She’s not. She loves her kids and she’s making sure they have a good foundation for a future while trying to keep them safe. All of these are excellent traits! When Goku is at home and the two of them can parent together, they seem to do really well and that seems to be the most stable times for their kids (before Raditz and after Buu mainly)

Having said that though, where ChiChi fails I think is on connecting to her kids, especially Gohan on an emotional level. The best way I know to describe this is simply—Gohan’s confidence soars when he’s with Goku. When he’s with ChiChi, it drops. I think all that can really be summed up with Goku gives his kids a sense that he cares about and loves them for who they are whereas ChiChi gives off this vibe of “I love you when you’re a certain way.” I don’t think it’s purposeful but when she is only giving positive attention when he studies and is downplaying the Saiyan part of his heritage, that sends a very strong message to a kid. Again, i don’t think she does it on purpose but it still happens. In counseling, we call what Goku has with his kids “unconditional positive regard” or “Ill love you no matter what” and what ChiChi has at least with Gohan “conditional positive regard” or “I love you because you are/act a certain way.” Now this definitely changes as Chichi changes in the Buu saga especially but for a long time, I think this was the message Gohan was getting and his confidence suffered for it. One reason I think Goku and ChiChi parent best together because they balance out one another’s flaws.

[ABED]

I don’t think Gohan fits to be a scholar —-I don’t buy it, I just don’t. I realize that this is the angle they went with but from a character development angle, it never made any sense to me. Gohan states at the beginning that he wants to be a scholar but that has always sounded rehearsed to me. It sounds like something his mother kept repeating and pushing so he decided to go along with it to please her. His character traits to me point more toward someone that enjoys nature, animals, likes to explore and enjoys the martial arts if not the battles. Gohan has been shown to have some of that Saiyan battle lust, it just isn’t triggered by the same things as his father. I always thought Gohan would have fun being a martial arts teacher and exploring different things he could do with ki. That seemed to be the best combo of earthling and human traits.

I agree. I brought this up years ago and even said I don't think any four year olds' want to be scholars when they grow up. Not saying he wouldn't eventually want to, but not at 4 years old. It does seem like something his mother wanted for him.

[Noah]

Now that Super is ending, I feel like I can fully come to the conclusion that GT as a sequel to Z is far better...

Well, to be fair Super is not after Z final episode as GT is, we can still call it a sequel for sure, but it's story is around Z timelapse.

[t0ffe3m4n]

- Super Saiyan 4 is tied with OG Super Saiyan as the best transformation in the franchise... and I don't particularly like the 'God' forms as I find them lazy.

- Super Saiyan 4 Goku/Vegeta/Gogeta, Baby & Super 17 are some of the best character designs in the franchise period.

- GT was better than people would care to admit. It became 'cool' at one point to trash on it because it isn't Toriyama's original work and people have just rolled with that mindset for years. Many 'fans' haven't even watched it because of this.

- GT in general served as a better sequel series to Z than Super. Had Super have had more time & money dedicated to it instead of being treated like a cash cow since day one it could have been great.

- Movie 8 is one of my favorites purely because of how it went from almost pure exposition to 'shit hitting the fan at light speed' when Broly snapped. The film, from that point, just went balls to the wall with action until the (albeit very average) climax. I think Broly as a character is a cool concept and it's probably my favourite of the movie dubs by Funi.

... and this one is probably going to be really unpopular, but...

- I think, at some point, Toriyama needs to step aside. He's done well with certain concepts and designs in Super but I just seem to get the feeling that his heart isn't totally into DB any more and hasn't been for years. I just don't want him to completely lose direction with it at the mercy of Toei because it could end up hitting a really bum note at the end of it all.