Lord Beerus wrote:This episode really puts into perspective the kind of gulf in power between a mortal and a Hakaishin...
It's fucking HUGE.
And Jiren is supposed to be above that. Let that sink in.
I don't see how Jiren could handle an opponent with an aura completely covered by Hakai energy, but I wait to see his full power.
The only physical way for Jiren to beat that is for him to be so powerful that his very existence/life-force/energy/matter/genki what ever trumps hakai energy through sheer force of numbers. And that's INSAINE!
A God of Destruction can theoretically destroy a universe if their power is full unleashed. To beat that Jiren's power would have to be on a greater level of infinity the a universe!
So if God of Destruction Toppo was also ~ Beerus ~ Super Saiyan Blue Vegito then that would mean that Super Saiyan 2 Kefla would be significantly weaker than Toppo.
But that would also mean that Ultra Instinct Goku as of Episode 110 would also be significantly weaker than Toppo.
However Vegeta is going to beat Toppo and as of yet he has only shown to be as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x20 which is obviously weaker than Ultra Instinct. Of course he'll do his life risking attack to win however.
Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta > Super Saiyan Blue Vegito > Toppo = Beerus > Super Saiyan 2 Kefla > Ultra Instinct Goku (EP 110)
That doesn't seem right.
TheSaiyanGod wrote:Or maybe Vegeta's new form is much stronger than we thought and he has not yet used his full power, or maybe he'll get a power up in that episode
Well it does say it's an attack that risks his life. The episode is called to "Surpass a God" so it would seem like he will do something at the end that will put him above a God of Destruction but he isn't going to be as powerful as Ultra Instinct so does that mean that Ultra Instinct Goku and Super Saiyan 2 Kefla were above a God of Destruction?
Draconic wrote:I mean, if Vegeta can do that next episode, I don't see how Jiren couldn't. The guy hasn't even shown his true power yet.
I see that 17 might help Vegeta on that before being eliminated, probably finding Toppo weakness? My point was just based on the feats Toppo showed this episode.
Kenneth La Torre wrote:You know you are going to be proven wrong everytime you say Jiren cant handle something. Might as well give it up since we know Jiren is above that and its being saved for later. And by the way, Vegeta is able to hit Toppo in the episode preview.
Like I said: I'll wait to see his full power, I'm not denying he could be stronger than Toppo at that stage and frankly you gain nothing waking Jiren in this thread. Were just here to discuss battle powers.
Lord Frieza wrote:The only physical way for Jiren to beat that is for him to be so powerful that his very existence/life-force/energy/matter/genki what ever trumps hakai energy through sheer force of numbers. And that's INSANE! A God of Destruction can theoretically destroy a universe if their power is full unleashed. To beat that Jiren's power would have to be on a greater level of infinity the a universe!
And we expect Goku to beat a guy that is capable of all that! Mastered Ultra Instinct or not... I don't see how U7 can win this tournament
Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?
Spoiler:
Nickolaidas wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:10 am
Guys, I'm going to be straight with you. If you feel the show has gotten 'silly' ... it hasn't. You're just 'too old for this shit'. Seriously, 95% of the people in those boards do not fit the target demographic of the show, so don't expect the show to be 'everything you hoped for'. I'm referring to the people here who expect Super to be rich with dark moments, serious storytelling, meaningful characters etc etc. It won't. It's a show for kids. A show for kids being kids. Everyone in those boards has a manchild in him/her, clamoring to get out, and that's fine. But having unrealistic expectations (such as believing the show grew up alongside you) is naïve at best. Honestly, do you take seriously a story where the supposed God of Destruction halts his urges to blow up stuff in order to eat ice cream sundae? That's the show's silliness at full force, take it for what it is. The show hasn't matured one bit, so don't expect it too. Again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying *that* is DB and always will be.
Bullza wrote:So if God of Destruction Toppo was also ~ Beerus ~ Super Saiyan Blue Vegito then that would mean that Super Saiyan 2 Kefla would be significantly weaker than Toppo.
But that would also mean that Ultra Instinct Goku as of Episode 110 would also be significantly weaker than Toppo.
However Vegeta is going to beat Toppo and as of yet he has only shown to be as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x20 which is obviously weaker than Ultra Instinct. Of course he'll do his life risking attack to win however.
Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta > Super Saiyan Blue Vegito > Toppo = Beerus > Super Saiyan 2 Kefla > Ultra Instinct Goku (EP 110)
That doesn't seem right.
TheSaiyanGod wrote:Or maybe Vegeta's new form is much stronger than we thought and he has not yet used his full power, or maybe he'll get a power up in that episode
Well it does say it's an attack that risks his life. The episode is called to "Surpass a God" so it would seem like he will do something at the end that will put him above a God of Destruction but he isn't going to be as powerful as Ultra Instinct so does that mean that Ultra Instinct Goku and Super Saiyan 2 Kefla were above a God of Destruction?
While I don’t like normally like the idea of chiming in on these strength discussions, especially since power levels in Super generally hasn’t given any significance, hasn’t the implication been that Goku hasn’t yet mastered Ultra Instinct?
Draconic wrote:
And Jiren is supposed to be above that. Let that sink in.
I don't see how Jiren could handle an opponent with an aura completely covered by Hakai energy, but I wait to see his full power.
The only physical way for Jiren to beat that is for him to be so powerful that his very existence/life-force/energy/matter/genki what ever trumps hakai energy through sheer force of numbers. And that's INSAINE!
A God of Destruction can theoretically destroy a universe if their power is full unleashed. To beat that Jiren's power would have to be on a greater level of infinity the a universe!
Well he's already powerful enough to move any energy with a glare and his powers ascends time, whatever that means.
Oh and something isnt a theory unless its tested and backed up or shown to be correct. What you're saying is pure speculation and I see no evidence that they could destroy a universe any more than someone like Freeza could.
So as was said before, Toppo's God of Destruction power isn't something new that didn't exist beforehand. Toppo, Jiren, Belmod and Marcarita knew about it and the latter two trained Toppo in order to use it.
Toppo didn't use the power beforehand, because that would mean throwing away the concept of justice and evil which is important to him. Now it's confirmed that Toppo could have used this power all along if he threw away justice. And he was fully aware of it.
And this same Toppo wasn't sure if he could beat Goku even with this power.
And in the next episode, Vegeta whom is equal to Goku is possibly going to fight on par with and/or even gain the upper hand againt this Toppo hence Jiren coming to help . Once again, keeping consistency with what's established during the exhibition match by Toppo and Goku.
So god of destruction toppo was stated to be no Different than any other God of destruction. That basically solidifies that he is right at the level of the gods themselves, even the angels were shocked.
Noah wrote:
I don't see how Jiren could handle an opponent with an aura completely covered by Hakai energy, but I wait to see his full power.
The only physical way for Jiren to beat that is for him to be so powerful that his very existence/life-force/energy/matter/genki what ever trumps hakai energy through sheer force of numbers. And that's INSAINE!
A God of Destruction can theoretically destroy a universe if their power is full unleashed. To beat that Jiren's power would have to be on a greater level of infinity the a universe!
Well he's already powerful enough to move any energy with a glare and his powers ascends time, whatever that means.
Oh and something isnt a theory unless its tested and backed up or shown to be correct. What you're saying is pure speculation and I see no evidence that they could destroy a universe any more than someone like Freeza could.
The Angel's do not permit the GoD to battling because if they do their power (clearly shown to be hakai energy) would destroy their respective universes if unleadshed in such a battle.
Edit: This is also something fundamentally different form Beerus's clash with Goku.
Lord Frieza wrote:
The only physical way for Jiren to beat that is for him to be so powerful that his very existence/life-force/energy/matter/genki what ever trumps hakai energy through sheer force of numbers. And that's INSAINE!
A God of Destruction can theoretically destroy a universe if their power is full unleashed. To beat that Jiren's power would have to be on a greater level of infinity the a universe!
Well he's already powerful enough to move any energy with a glare and his powers ascends time, whatever that means.
Oh and something isnt a theory unless its tested and backed up or shown to be correct. What you're saying is pure speculation and I see no evidence that they could destroy a universe any more than someone like Freeza could.
The Angel's do not permit the GoD to battling because if they do their power (clearly shown to be hakai energy) would destroy their respective universes if unleadshed in such a battle.
Edit: This is also something fundamentally different form Beerus's clash with Goku.
The evidence is in episode 125 itself. Toppo being an actual G.o.D, managed to affect the entirety of the infinite realm of void, and he was very suppressed, as he himself said he could have easily killed freeza, but he doesnt want to get disqualified.
Noah wrote:
I don't see how Jiren could handle an opponent with an aura completely covered by Hakai energy, but I wait to see his full power.
The only physical way for Jiren to beat that is for him to be so powerful that his very existence/life-force/energy/matter/genki what ever trumps hakai energy through sheer force of numbers. And that's INSAINE!
A God of Destruction can theoretically destroy a universe if their power is full unleashed. To beat that Jiren's power would have to be on a greater level of infinity the a universe!
Well he's already powerful enough to move any energy with a glare and his powers ascends time, whatever that means.
Oh and something isnt a theory unless its tested and backed up or shown to be correct. What you're saying is pure speculation and I see no evidence that they could destroy a universe any more than someone like Freeza could.
There's multiple evidence actually
Bog Ssjg goku and beerus nearly destroying universe in there clash multiple times stated by the narrator,whis, and elder Kai
Beerus and champa fighting would've result in both u6 and u7 being destroyed goku confirms that next episode after it
Once again in the baseball episode
Manga alludes to it as well
Hell jiren shook the world of the void in a suppressed state
And toppo warped it without trying
Oooh seems like you guys want to add universe busting to feats for battledoming. Ok thats fine, go for it. But when its not two powers colliding, how does a GoD bust a universe? Do they just stand still and vibrate? Or do they have a Zeno attack that just erases everything and expands and continues to erase everything like what Zeno did. And does this mean that any GoD could just Universe bust the universe that Zeno and the GP are in? Hmm interesting.
Last edited by Brettjr25 on Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
WittyUsername wrote:While I don’t like normally like the idea of chiming in on these strength discussions, especially since power levels in Super generally hasn’t given any significance, hasn’t the implication been that Goku hasn’t yet mastered Ultra Instinct?
It's true he hasn't mastered it yet and I'm positive that in the final battle, Goku will come out with something that will make his Ultra Instinct even more powerful than before but I don't think it will happen straight away.
So from a story perspective I would expect that Vegeta will come out with something really powerful to beat Toppo, Goku will come out with Ultra Instinct which is meant to be even more powerful and then he will master it and get more powerful still.
It's not impossible though I guess. If Super Saiyan 2 Kefla can be stronger than Ultra Instinct Goku at one point I suppose ideally Vegeta could be, but he shouldn't be up till now.
WittyUsername wrote:While I don’t like normally like the idea of chiming in on these strength discussions, especially since power levels in Super generally hasn’t given any significance, hasn’t the implication been that Goku hasn’t yet mastered Ultra Instinct?
It's true he hasn't mastered it yet and I'm positive that in the final battle, Goku will come out with something that will make his Ultra Instinct even more powerful than before but I don't think it will happen straight away.
So from a story perspective I would expect that Vegeta will come out with something really powerful to beat Toppo, Goku will come out with Ultra Instinct which is meant to be even more powerful and then he will master it and get more powerful still.
It's not impossible though I guess. If Super Saiyan 2 Kefla can be stronger than Ultra Instinct Goku at one point I suppose ideally Vegeta could be, but he shouldn't be up till now.
Except that was never said.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.
Lord Frieza wrote:
The only physical way for Jiren to beat that is for him to be so powerful that his very existence/life-force/energy/matter/genki what ever trumps hakai energy through sheer force of numbers. And that's INSAINE!
A God of Destruction can theoretically destroy a universe if their power is full unleashed. To beat that Jiren's power would have to be on a greater level of infinity the a universe!
Well he's already powerful enough to move any energy with a glare and his powers ascends time, whatever that means.
Oh and something isnt a theory unless its tested and backed up or shown to be correct. What you're saying is pure speculation and I see no evidence that they could destroy a universe any more than someone like Freeza could.
There's multiple evidence actually
Bog Ssjg goku and beerus nearly destroying universe in there clash multiple times stated by the narrator,whis, and elder Kai
Beerus and champa fighting would've result in both u6 and u7 being destroyed goku confirms that next episode after it
Once again in the baseball episode
Manga alludes to it as well
Hell jiren shook the world of the void in a suppressed state
And toppo warped it without trying
If they could destroy universes then Beerus wouldn't have needed to use the Super dragon balls to accomplish such a feat. He was also afraid of Zeno's power to destroy the universe.
The comment was that Kelfa was stronger than Goku back then, the implication being Ultra Instinct Goku hence Piccolo also mentioning about Goku being able to draw out more power in that current fight.
Brettjr25 wrote:
Well he's already powerful enough to move any energy with a glare and his powers ascends time, whatever that means.
Oh and something isnt a theory unless its tested and backed up or shown to be correct. What you're saying is pure speculation and I see no evidence that they could destroy a universe any more than someone like Freeza could.
There's multiple evidence actually
Bog Ssjg goku and beerus nearly destroying universe in there clash multiple times stated by the narrator,whis, and elder Kai
Beerus and champa fighting would've result in both u6 and u7 being destroyed goku confirms that next episode after it
Once again in the baseball episode
Manga alludes to it as well
Hell jiren shook the world of the void in a suppressed state
And toppo warped it without trying
If they could destroy universes then Beerus wouldn't have needed to use the Super dragon balls to accomplish such a feat. He was also afraid of Zeno's power to destroy the universe.
Beerus alluding the Super dragon ball capabilities not that he needed it to destroy a Universe
Beerus is afraid of Zeno because Zeno is above all and can wipeout the entire db multiverse especially where Zeno wiped six in a fit of rage something he mentioned back in u6 and black saga which shits on him destroying a Universe
Brettjr25 wrote:Oooh seems like you guys want to add universe busting to feats for battledoming. Ok thats fine, go for it. But when its not two powers colliding, how does a GoD bust a universe? Do they just stand still and vibrate? Or do they have a Zeno attack that just erases everything and expands and continues to erase everything like what Zeno did. And does this mean that any GoD could just Universe bust the universe that Zeno and the GP are in? Hmm interesting.
Seeing as Vado and Whis could stand right next to Champa and Beerus's little scuffle, in fact right in the radius of their hakai energy, and were completely unaffected then its very likely that Angels and by extension the Grand Priest are immune or at least resistant to it. While nothing can be said for Zen-Oh he is the supposed god of everything so it not wrong to speculate he himself could be immune as well. So any attempt to destroy them with Hakai would be a waste of time. It makes sense as these are beings who's role it is not only to watch over but also keep in line the GoD. Also as seen with future Zen-Oh after erasing Trunks's universe, he can float happly in the void he created with no ill effect. So while there is nothing on hakai, he really would be unaffected by an absence of a universe.
As for how a GoD would unleash their hakai energy without clashing well that is speculation but after seeing Toppo, the power can be controlled in a manner to similar to ki. Ki's been used in wide range of ways before and a lot of the gods abilities are still a mystery so it's anyone's guess as to the full mechanic of it. But since their clash's display a different affect to that of Goku and Beerus's little universe destroy brawl, it 's possible that it could be tied to unchecked control of the energy. But again the exact mechanics are unknown.
Belmod said he is no different from a god of destruction, so he is at the level of current hakaishins. He was candidate before, but as stated in thia episode, he now accepted the power, as it required him to throw away hos sense of justice. So basically universe 11 has two gods of destruction... damn
