The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Dragon Ball Gus]

He would be above anyone from Z except maybe ssj Vegito. I don't think he can beat SSG Goku but he could possibly put up a fight. If he was in the ToP he would be upper mid tier.

Any Low to Mid Tier DBS character would beat them, considering Ssj Ikari doesn't have much of a Multiplier.

Damn, that is some downplay right there. I was honestly expecting, "He'd be on par with the initial SSG Goku, considering that SSJ Rage is a huge boost". I mean, saying that Goten and Trunks as individuals wouldn't be that strong if they got the form is fine, because they're not that strong currently, but saying that Gotenks wouldn't be that strong? Whoa!

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Base Goku was stated to be weaker than Frieza

He's also stated to be stronger than Gotenks, who's stronger than SSJ3 Goku in base.

Roshi pushed back Frost as well. Frost really isn't that strong. Goku was holding back on him most likely. From his fight it originally made him look RoF tier but Champa flat out said he was no match for Frieza in the ToP and in the manga version of the U6 arc Goku implied Frost was much weaker than RoF Frieza.

Not sure how Roshi pushing back Frost means anything to lowball him. Didn't he block all his hits and forced Roshi to use the Mafuba?

It is never stated ssj Gotenks could easily beat Fat Buu.

Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”

ToP is irrevelant as Freeza has grown much stronger since FnF. No comparison between Frost and Freeza was made at the U6 Tournament, but Frost did show a better feat by having the upperhand against Goku on his 3rd form, while Freeza was slightly outmatched by a weaker Goku.

No. Again:

If we consider that Goku who fought Daimao had 200 BP, plus 10x (Oozaru multiplier) he would have something around 2000, destroying a Saibamen with ease, I don't know if when he fought Jackie Chun he was already on 100 so as a Oozaru he could pretty much give some troube to one Saibamen.

Why are you bringing Piccolo fight Goku if the question was about 21st Budokai Goku?

Scouter numbers don't match with Part I's power scaling btw, so they are irrevelant while comparing Part I and Z.

[dragon boss z]

He would be above anyone from Z except maybe ssj Vegito. I don't think he can beat SSG Goku but he could possibly put up a fight. If he was in the ToP he would be upper mid tier.

Any Low to Mid Tier DBS character would beat them, considering Ssj Ikari doesn't have much of a Multiplier.

Damn, that is some downplay right there. I was honestly expecting, "He'd be on par with the initial SSG Goku, considering that SSJ Rage is a huge boost". I mean, saying that Goten and Trunks as individuals wouldn't be that strong if they got the form is fine, because they're not that strong currently, but saying that Gotenks wouldn't be that strong? Whoa!

It's not really downplay. Ssj3 Gotenks couldn't even beat base copy Vegeta.

He's also stated to be stronger than Gotenks, who's stronger than SSJ3 Goku in base.

No he wasn't. Nothing less than ssj Gotenks even has a chance agasint ssj3 Goku.

Not sure how Roshi pushing back Frost means anything to lowball him. Didn't he block all his hits and forced Roshi to use the Mafuba?

If the power gap was really huge it should of been like base/ssj Goku vs Jiren where he can just stand there and laugh while Roshi attacks him.

Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”

That doesn't say ssj Gotenks can win easily it just says Goku think they can definitely win with the power of fussion.

ToP is irrevelant as Freeza has grown much stronger since FnF.

It was only stated that his Golden form became stronger due to mastering ki control, it was never stated his final form got any better. Maybe it got a bit stronger.

No comparison between Frost and Freeza was made at the U6 Tournament,

There was in the manga.

but Frost did show a better feat by having the upperhand against Goku on his 3rd form, while Freeza was slightly outmatched by a weaker Goku.

Imo Goku was holding back heavily on Frost. My evidence is Goku decided to go from base to ssj against Frost but felt the need to jump straight to Blue against Frieza and he didn't even know about Golden Frieza yet. Also Piccolo almost beat final form Frost but was one shot by first form Frieza.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

No he wasn't. Nothing less than ssj Gotenks even has a chance agasint ssj3 Goku.

The only Gotenks Goku could win is Pre Rosat base and arguably SSJ. Any form of Gotenks post Rosat gets Goku's ass handed to him as evidenced by Gotenks surpassing his former SSJ self

If the power gap was really huge it should of been like base/ssj Goku vs Jiren where he can just stand there and laugh while Roshi attacks him.

Don't you think Freeza > SSJ Kid Trunks? Someone who you believe to be far below Freeza was giving trouble to Boo Arc SSJ Vegeta on the same way Frost had trouble with Roshi.

And Toei always does this stuff. See Kuririn being able to exchange blows with Imperfect Cell at the plane, Zamasu holding off Blue Goku and SSJ2 Trunks. etc. Kuririn could even hold his own on a beam struggle with SSJB Goku.

That doesn't say ssj Gotenks can win easily it just says Goku think they can definitely win with the power of fussion.

Considering he thought a Gotenks with no experience, skills and limited time could beat Boo, i think it's safe to say their fight would pretty much be a cakewalk for Gotenks.

It was only stated that his Golden form became stronger due to mastering ki control, it was never stated his final form got any better. Maybe it got a bit stronger.

Mastering Ki control is fundamental at getting stronger though. Most of the training with God and Kaio is about mastering the use of Ki. Golden Freeza seems to be on the same range as the SSJBs from the ToP, Beerus even says he and Goku are even when Freeza returns.

There was in the manga.

Show me then. The closest thing to a power comparison i see is Goku telling Frost to train like Freeza did.

Imo Goku was holding back heavily on Frost. My evidence is Goku decided to go from base to ssj against Frost but felt the need to jump straight to Blue against Frieza and he didn't even know about Golden Frieza yet. Also Piccolo almost beat final form Frost but was one shot by first form Frieza.

Vegeta needed to turn Super Saiyan in order to one shot Frost. Goku probably only transformed straight to SSJB because he/Toei wanted to show Goku's new form.

Piccolo holding is own with Frost just implies Piccolo has grown stronger since FnF, unless you're trying to tell me that 1st form Freeza > Frost.

[dragon boss z]

The only Gotenks Goku could win is Pre Rosat base and arguably SSJ. Any form of Gotenks post Rosat gets Goku's ass handed to him as evidenced by Gotenks surpassing his former SSJ self

That scene didn't really prove base Gotenks surpassed his previous ssj form, Piccolo just felt Gotenks felt different this some so he might stand a chance but then seconds later he was like nvm.
Also I think ssj transformations for fissions don't give as much of a boost.
And I think we talked about this before but didn't the daizenshuu compare post ROSAT Gotenks to Majin ssj2 Vegeta?

If the power gap was really huge it should of been like base/ssj Goku vs Jiren where he can just stand there and laugh while Roshi attacks him.

Don't you think Freeza > SSJ Kid Trunks? Someone who you believe to be far below Freeza was giving trouble to Boo Arc SSJ Vegeta on the same way Frost had trouble with Roshi.

Yes but that was a tired holding back Vegeta and the power difference isn't even comparable.

Imo ssj Trunks is somewhere between 20 to 150 million. And I think ssj Vegeta at that time would be about 1-2 billion. So imo Vegeta was probably 10 to 50 times stronger.
Roshi on the other hand is still below a power level of 1 million imo while Frost is over a billion. The gap is completely different.

And Toei always does this stuff. See Kuririn being able to exchange blows with Imperfect Cell at the plane, Zamasu holding off Blue Goku and SSJ2 Trunks. etc. Kuririn could even hold his own on a beam struggle with SSJB Goku.

This is definitely true.

Considering he thought a Gotenks with no experience, skills and limited time could beat Boo, i think it's safe to say their fight would pretty much be a cakewalk for Gotenks.

I mean Goku could of just been wrong. Gohan who was an even better fighter than Gotenks and stronger than Buu ended up losing from being cocky. Buu is very unpredictable and hard to put down. So without a proper feat to back that statement up I would take it with a grain of salt. Also this is the same Goku who said he could beat Buu if he had a minute to charge up but couldn't.

Mastering Ki control is fundamental at getting stronger though. Most of the training with God and Kaio is about mastering the use of Ki. Golden Freeza seems to be on the same range as the SSJBs from the ToP, Beerus even says he and Goku are even when Freeza returns.

But I'm pretty sure he already mastered his final form by RoF. It was just his Golden form he didn't master.
It's possibly his final form got stronger too but I don't think by much. Most likely less than a factor of 2.

Show me then. The closest thing to a power comparison i see is Goku telling Frost to train like Freeza did.

That's what I was talking about. That's pretty much Goku saying Frost was weaker than Frieza. It's not like Frost said he didn't train, Goku just assumed because of how weak he was.

Vegeta needed to turn Super Saiyan in order to one shot Frost. Goku probably only transformed straight to SSJB because he/Toei wanted to show Goku's new form.

Vegeta also had to heavily hold back. He said he could of killed Frost with that punch if he wanted to.

Piccolo holding is own with Frost just implies Piccolo has grown stronger since FnF, unless you're trying to tell me that 1st form Freeza > Frost.

Imo final form Frost is only a bit above first form Frieza. If Piccolo trained for 7 years between the Cell and Buu saga, was still weaker than Dabura/Cell, and even a few years after have trouble with Frieza soldiers (which was BS) what makes you think he randomly got like a few hundred times stronger in a couple months? Especially since he didn't even push Gohan to go ssj while training with him right before the tournament (more BS).

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

He would be above anyone from Z except maybe ssj Vegito. I don't think he can beat SSG Goku but he could possibly put up a fight. If he was in the ToP he would be upper mid tier.

Any Low to Mid Tier DBS character would beat them, considering Ssj Ikari doesn't have much of a Multiplier.

Damn, that is some downplay right there. I was honestly expecting, "He'd be on par with the initial SSG Goku, considering that SSJ Rage is a huge boost". I mean, saying that Goten and Trunks as individuals wouldn't be that strong if they got the form is fine, because they're not that strong currently, but saying that Gotenks wouldn't be that strong? Whoa!

It's not Downplay if it all fits the description and what's being asked. Gotenks is fodder in comparison to even the lowest of tiers in DBS. Ssj Ikari holds barely any candle to the high-end multipliers as it showed nothing on that level. Claiming it's downplay just because it's Gotenks isn't really an argument

[jeffbr92]

Why are you bringing Piccolo fight Goku if the question was about 21st Budokai Goku?

Scouter numbers don't match with Part I's power scaling btw, so they are irrevelant while comparing Part I and Z.

Because you said a Saibamen can solo the entire DB verse and that's not true if a hypothetical Oozaru Goku who fought Daimao would be stronger than Raditz.

They are not irrevelant if they were on Daizenshuu, a official guide.

[dragon boss z]

He would be above anyone from Z except maybe ssj Vegito. I don't think he can beat SSG Goku but he could possibly put up a fight. If he was in the ToP he would be upper mid tier.

Any Low to Mid Tier DBS character would beat them, considering Ssj Ikari doesn't have much of a Multiplier.

Damn, that is some downplay right there. I was honestly expecting, "He'd be on par with the initial SSG Goku, considering that SSJ Rage is a huge boost". I mean, saying that Goten and Trunks as individuals wouldn't be that strong if they got the form is fine, because they're not that strong currently, but saying that Gotenks wouldn't be that strong? Whoa!

It's not Downplay if it all fits the description and what's being asked. Gotenks is fodder in comparison to even the lowest of tiers in DBS. Ssj Ikari holds barely any candle to the high-end multipliers as it showed nothing on that level. Claiming it's downplay just because it's Gotenks isn't really an argument

I disagree with Gotenks being fodder compared to low tiers in DBS. Even Krillin, Roshi, and Tien weren't complete fodder and ssj3 Gotenks should still be leagues above them. In the ToP Gotenks would most likely be a mid tier along with the tri de danger and characters like that.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Damn, that is some downplay right there. I was honestly expecting, "He'd be on par with the initial SSG Goku, considering that SSJ Rage is a huge boost". I mean, saying that Goten and Trunks as individuals wouldn't be that strong if they got the form is fine, because they're not that strong currently, but saying that Gotenks wouldn't be that strong? Whoa!

It's not Downplay if it all fits the description and what's being asked. Gotenks is fodder in comparison to even the lowest of tiers in DBS. Ssj Ikari holds barely any candle to the high-end multipliers as it showed nothing on that level. Claiming it's downplay just because it's Gotenks isn't really an argument

I disagree with Gotenks being fodder compared to low tiers in DBS. Even Krillin, Roshi, and Tien weren't complete fodder and ssj3 Gotenks should still be leagues above them. In the ToP Gotenks would most likely be a mid tier along with the tri de danger and characters like that.

It's actually arguable that Earthlings have become God Tier actually (Far weaker than Base Goku and such though), and my point comes from this, so Gotenks really is fodder if compared that way.

Btw, do you consider Base Goku > SsjG Goku BoG arc? By far, by a bit or equal? Or completely weaker?

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Why are you bringing Piccolo fight Goku if the question was about 21st Budokai Goku?

Scouter numbers don't match with Part I's power scaling btw, so they are irrevelant while comparing Part I and Z.

Because you said a Saibamen can solo the entire DB verse and that's not true if a hypothetical Oozaru Goku who fought Daimao would be stronger than Raditz.

They are not irrevelant if they were on Daizenshuu, a official guide.

Except Power Levels are contradictory on the matter, in most cases. That is my view, I don't know about GreatSaiyaman123's view on the matter but power levels break most scaling completely

[dragon boss z]

It's actually arguable that Earthlings have become God Tier actually (Far weaker than Base Goku and such though), and my point comes from this, so Gotenks really is fodder if compared that way.

Imo the humans are still Namek tier. They were pretty trash in RoF and Krillin was scared of bullets and hurt by one right before the tournament which was BS. The absolute max I would put them is Frieza to android tier and only because Krillin fought well with 18 for a bit.

Btw, do you consider Base Goku > SsjG Goku BoG arc? By far, by a bit or equal? Or completely weaker?

I think he is quite a bit weaker. I think they decided to nerd him to make more characters relevant. Toriyama originals said Goku wouldn't go SSG anymore because he absorbed it, but it seems like they threw that out the window as he can go SSG now whenever he wants. I personally have Goku's base somewhere between Z mystic Gohan and Z Vegito, and that's when he is serious like when he fought Frieza, Hit or Beerus/Monaka. Imo he plays around and lets himself get hit when he fights Frost and when Vegeta fights Cabba. This is later hinted as tired base Goku starts off beating ssj2 Caulifla who is even stronger than Frost as a regular ssj and it is pretty evident final form Frieza is stronger than Frost as well.

[jeffbr92]

It's actually arguable that Earthlings have become God Tier actually (Far weaker than Base Goku and such though), and my point comes from this, so Gotenks really is fodder if compared that way.

How its arguable? There's no single evidence of earthlings being close to God tier let alone stronger than Gotenks

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Imo the humans are still Namek tier. They were pretty trash in RoF and Krillin was scared of bullets and hurt by one right before the tournament which was BS. The absolute max I would put them is Frieza to android tier and only because Krillin fought well with 18 for a bit.

Humans are quite powerful actually and that has been represented to us partially in the Android Saga. Namek Saga Tier is too low. Bullets hurting Krillin is an obvious inconsistency as Kid Goku tanked them. Android 18 in the Tournament of Power is far stronger than her Z counterpart. So when you say Android Tier, you would have to specify more.

I think he is quite a bit weaker. I think they decided to nerd him to make more characters relevant. Toriyama originals said Goku wouldn't go SSG anymore because he absorbed it, but it seems like they threw that out the window as he can go SSG now whenever he wants

Do you have a reasoning? I'm asking because you're reasoning is opinionated. I do see where you're getting at, still it's been referenced multiple times that He surpassed his SsjG BoG counterpart. Also, Goku doing SsjG doesn't mean he lost his power, because by that logic Goku's current base is weaker than Namek Saga Ssj Goku because he can go Ssj. It only means he can transform into SsjG, not use that same power.

I personally have Goku's base somewhere between Z mystic Gohan and Z Vegito, and that's when he is serious like when he fought Frieza, Hit or Beerus/Monaka. Imo he plays around and lets himself get hit when he fights Frost and when Vegeta fights Cabba. This is later hinted as tired base Goku starts off beating ssj2 Caulifla who is even stronger than Frost as a regular ssj and it is pretty evident final form Frieza is stronger than Frost as well.

Not really. Goku got ridiculously stronger in the tournament of power from his Universe 6 arc counterpart. Vegeta outright confirms that his Base is equal to Cabba's, however because Vegeta Mastered Ssj, he surpasses Cabba since Cabba only learned it that time. Vegeta and Goku both got far beyond what they used to be, and this is factually supported on a horde of occasions. Goku showed signs of needing to go Ssj against Frost, and Final Form Frieza (RoF arc) being above Frost is not evident, except in the Manga, and both have different scaling of characters (Though Frieza surpasses Frost by far in the ToP arc). Basically you're assuming Goku barely got stronger which is shown to be wrong for us.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

It's actually arguable that Earthlings have become God Tier actually (Far weaker than Base Goku and such though), and my point comes from this, so Gotenks really is fodder if compared that way.

How its arguable? There's no single evidence of earthlings being close to God tier let alone stronger than Gotenks

Yes it is arguable, based on all the feats we've got starting from Episode 75 all the way to the last time Earthlings made an appearance in the Tournament of Power. It isn't an "assumption", because that's shown to us. Whether it's up to different interpretation is a different case, but that's not really an assumption. If they are God Tier then that automatically renders them above Ssj3 Gotenks

[jeffbr92]

Yes it is arguable, based on all the feats we've got starting from Episode 75 all the way to the last time Earthlings made an appearance in the Tournament of Power. It isn't an "assumption", because that's shown to us. Whether it's up to different interpretation is a different case, but that's not really an assumption. If they are God Tier then that automatically renders them above Ssj3 Gotenks

Not at all. Krillin fighting a bunch of ghost fighters don't make him God-tier nor he resisting a heavily supressed SSB Goku Kamehameha.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

That scene didn't really prove base Gotenks surpassed his previous ssj form, Piccolo just felt Gotenks felt different this some so he might stand a chance but then seconds later he was like nvm.
Also I think ssj transformations for fissions don't give as much of a boost.
And I think we talked about this before but didn't the daizenshuu compare post ROSAT Gotenks to Majin ssj2 Vegeta?

That's the point though. Piccolo thought SSJ Gotenks had no chance, but thought Base Gotenks was worth the shot. The SSJ boost being smaller for Gotenks doesn't change much as Gotenks' weakest form is stronger than Goku's strongest form.

I don't think we ever discussed about the Daizenshuu entry, but the entry seems to be both vague and incorrect. It says Gotenks surpassed "Vegeta and the others" after training on Rosat. Who are the others? Gohan, Piccolo, #18? It's impossible for Gotenks to be weaker than any of them.

I mean Goku could of just been wrong. Gohan who was an even better fighter than Gotenks and stronger than Buu ended up losing from being cocky. Buu is very unpredictable and hard to put down. So without a proper feat to back that statement up I would take it with a grain of salt. Also this is the same Goku who said he could beat Buu if he had a minute to charge up but couldn't.

To be honest Gotenks would have a somewhat tough fight with Boo IMO because of his retarded attitude (He has no motivation to fight seriously even after all his family and friends were eaten/killed), but there's no way Goku could predict Gotenks' personality. Goku definitely was right though, him being wrong about being able to kill Boo is irrevelant because he didn't know of SSJ3's drawbacks.

But I'm pretty sure he already mastered his final form by RoF. It was just his Golden form he didn't master.
It's possibly his final form got stronger too but I don't think by much. Most likely less than a factor of 2.

Isn't Golden a fix multiplier though? Tbh i don't remember Base Freeza doing much, although him one shoting Bulk Frost definitely implies he has gotten stronger, considering Frost has better feats than FnF Freeza.

That's what I was talking about. That's pretty much Goku saying Frost was weaker than Frieza. It's not like Frost said he didn't train, Goku just assumed because of how weak he was.

Ch. 10, pg. 14.2-3
Context: Goku is overwhelming Frost
Goku: “I hate to say it, but it’s over. If you train more, you’ll come back even stronger! Just as Freeza did. When that happens, come back to me and--”
Note: Frost then sucker punches Goku out of the ring.

More like he's just telling Frost to train, because Freeza did the same and got a lot stronger. Goku could be refering about Frost achieving Golden form as well.

Vegeta also had to heavily hold back. He said he could of killed Frost with that punch if he wanted to.

As a SSJ. He wouldn't have turned a Super Saiyan if he could one shot him in base. It's important to note that was a weakened Frost as well.

Imo final form Frost is only a bit above first form Frieza. If Piccolo trained for 7 years between the Cell and Buu saga, was still weaker than Dabura/Cell, and even a few years after have trouble with Frieza soldiers (which was BS) what makes you think he randomly got like a few hundred times stronger in a couple months? Especially since he didn't even push Gohan to go ssj while training with him right before the tournament (more BS).

1st form Freeza?! The form of Freeza that is multiple times below the form that went toe to toe with Base Goku? That shouldn't be possible at all, otherwise Goku would've instantly trashed him.
Plot dictates power, so Piccolo is as strong as the plot needs him to be. Especially when it's a show from Toei.

Because you said a Saibamen can solo the entire DB verse and that's not true if a hypothetical Oozaru Goku who fought Daimao would be stronger than Raditz.

They are not irrevelant if they were on Daizenshuu, a official guide.

It's actually impossible to tell how strong a Oozaru Goku would be. We know nothing aside from Goku being 10x stronger than he is in base.

If anything the Daizenshuu numbers only support mine and DB Magnum's opinions on the matter. According to Part I statements Piccolo Daimao is supposed to be several times (Around 10x) above Goku and Tenshinhan from the Budokai, but the Daizenshuu has them as high as ~70% of Daimao. The same numbers also have Yamcha weaker than Goku and Tenshinhan from the 22nd Budokai and Piccolo Daimao above BoZ Tenshinhan.

[kn83]

God Toppo vs Aniraza
SSJ1 Vegito (Black arc) vs SSJ2 Kefla
Golden Freeza vs 17 (both current)
Obuni vs Dsypo
GT 17 vs Bergamo

[Bullza]

Ultra Instinct Goku vs Sword of Hope Trunks

God Toppo vs Merged Zamasu (Corrupted)

Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta vs Beerus

[dragon boss z]

God Toppo vs Aniraza
SSJ1 Vegito (Black arc) vs SSJ2 Kefla
Golden Freeza vs 17 (both current)
Obuni vs Dsypo
GT 17 vs Bergamo

-Toppo
-Vegito
-Frieza
-Dyspo

Ultra Instinct Goku vs Sword of Hope Trunks

God Toppo vs Merged Zamasu (Corrupted)

Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta vs Beerus

-Goku
-Zamasu unless hakai works
-Beerus

That's the point though. Piccolo thought SSJ Gotenks had no chance, but thought Base Gotenks was worth the shot. The SSJ boost being smaller for Gotenks doesn't change much as Gotenks' weakest form is stronger than Goku's strongest form.

He says the feel different and that they powered up hugely, but that doesn't necessarily mean they were stronger than their old ssj form. Base Gotenks couldn't even damage Super Buu. I have a hard time believing ssj3 Goku would do that bad against him, and like I said Super Buu would most likely be kid Buu + fat Buu in power considering he is a combo of them.

I don't think we ever discussed about the Daizenshuu entry, but the entry seems to be both vague and incorrect. It says Gotenks surpassed "Vegeta and the others" after training on Rosat. Who are the others? Gohan, Piccolo, #18? It's impossible for Gotenks to be weaker than any of them.

I don't know, but the fact it doesn't even say Gotenks surpassed Goku may be a hint that he didn't. Not to mention in the final fight with Buu Vegeta thought it would be better to just to bank on Goku than to wish for Gotenks and Gohan to come help. If base Gotenks was really stronger than ssj3 Goku, ssj3 Gotenks and mystic Gohan would be so much stronger than kid Buu they could sneeze him away, they they didn't wish for them to come and instead went with an extremely risky plan. Why risk the universe when there were two guys who could one shot kid Buu? The only logical answer is they really weren't that much stronger. I do think they were stronger than kid Buu, but not enough to where Buu might not take advantage of them or try to absorb them.

To be honest Gotenks would have a somewhat tough fight with Boo IMO because of his retarded attitude (He has no motivation to fight seriously even after all his family and friends were eaten/killed), but there's no way Goku could predict Gotenks' personality. Goku definitely was right though, him being wrong about being able to kill Boo is irrevelant because he didn't know of SSJ3's drawbacks.

Goku could of also known that if Gotenks didn't win in his first try he would try again, like he did. So as long as post ROSAT Gotenks is stronger than Fat Buu, which he was, I think Goku's statement pretty much lines up.

Isn't Golden a fix multiplier though?

It shouldn't be considering base Goku was stronger than Frieza in RoF and equals with him in the RoF arc, while Golden Frieza was above SSB. So that means Golden Frieza should be a bigger multiplier than Blue, but now it seams final form Frieza is still base tier if not much higher yet his golden from is still equal to blue.... I think it just comes down to whatever the plot calls for, lol.

Tbh i don't remember Base Freeza doing much, although him one shoting Bulk Frost definitely implies he has gotten stronger, considering Frost has better feats than FnF Freeza.

He stomped Nappapa who pushed back ssj Caulifla, he stomped the yadrat who was beating base Gohan, he played with base Cabba, he was about to attack ssj2 Caulifla and mastered bersek Kale without transforming, he fought Dyspo, and now he froze GoD Toppo with his paralysis and stopped GoD Toppo's ki blasts with his own.

Ch. 10, pg. 14.2-3
Context: Goku is overwhelming Frost
Goku: “I hate to say it, but it’s over. If you train more, you’ll come back even stronger! Just as Freeza did. When that happens, come back to me and--”
Note: Frost then sucker punches Goku out of the ring.

More like he's just telling Frost to train, because Freeza did the same and got a lot stronger. Goku could be refering about Frost achieving Golden form as well.

But why would he assume Frost didn't train or didn't have another form unless he was weaker than Frieza was? Not to mention when Frieza was talking to Frost the same thing was brought up and Frieza was portrayed as the more knowledgeable one and he told if Frost trained he "might" be able to get a golden form. Him not being on the level to get a golden form yet should imply him being weaker than RoF Frieza, and him almost losing to Piccolo in the U6 tournament and getting pummeled by base Vegeta in the ToP line up with that.

1st form Freeza?! The form of Freeza that is multiple times below the form that went toe to toe with Base Goku? That shouldn't be possible at all, otherwise Goku would've instantly trashed him.
Plot dictates power, so Piccolo is as strong as the plot needs him to be. Especially when it's a show from Toei.

Like I said, I don't think Goku was fighting at full power or at least not seriously. Base Goku later drew blood from Hit. Do you think any version of Frost could of done that?

It's actually impossible to tell how strong a Oozaru Goku would be. We know nothing aside from Goku being 10x stronger than he is in base.

If anything the Daizenshuu numbers only support mine and DB Magnum's opinions on the matter. According to Part I statements Piccolo Daimao is supposed to be several times (Around 10x) above Goku and Tenshinhan from the Budokai, but the Daizenshuu has them as high as ~70% of Daimao. The same numbers also have Yamcha weaker than Goku and Tenshinhan from the 22nd Budokai and Piccolo Daimao above BoZ Tenshinhan.

The thing with King Piccolo was that he was strong but sucked at fighting. His power level could be above BoZ Tien but still get thrashed by him in a fight.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Yes it is arguable, based on all the feats we've got starting from Episode 75 all the way to the last time Earthlings made an appearance in the Tournament of Power. It isn't an "assumption", because that's shown to us. Whether it's up to different interpretation is a different case, but that's not really an assumption. If they are God Tier then that automatically renders them above Ssj3 Gotenks

Not at all. Krillin fighting a bunch of ghost fighters don't make him God-tier nor he resisting a heavily supressed SSB Goku Kamehameha.

You know that's not the only part of the evidence at all. Besides, no one is saying Krillin resisted a Powered up Kamehameha, be because that definitely would be retarded. But yes, it starts all the way from here and can be furthered.