"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[Totamo]

Vegetas case would fall pretty much the same as Sasukes.

The Gap between Naruto and Sasuke was also huge when Naruto gained the chakra of all the bijus, and then Sasuke gets the rinnegan to become his equal. Vegeta could reach current Gokus level in that kawai blue form and the his pride powerup that make him overcome a Hakaishin level foe in Toppo.

Why are we debating Vegeta's power relative to Goku's when by the end of this arc Goku will be far above Vegeta with his Mastered UI? Vegeta logically shouldn't be able to touch Goku in a fight ever again. These comparisons with Saskue are flawed because he was actually Naruto's equal by the end of series and fought him to a stalemate. When was the last time Vegeta was equal to Goku at the end of a series? DBZ? Nope, SSJ3. GT? Nope, because Goku had control over SSJ4 where as Vegeta could only access it by cheating. It will be the same case with Mastered UI compared to Vegeta's new form.

Saying Vegeta cheated to reach Ssj4 clearly shows your lack of knowledge towards what happened.

The only other way Vegeta could get those waves would be to have his tail pulled out then leave earth to absorbe those waves which would've taken time they didn't have.

After becoming an ape, turning into a golden one then controlling it was his doing, Bulma just found a quick way to turn him into a normal ape, something we've seen him do in the past with the right conditions.

No, it was cheating. Vegeta did not achieved that through his own ability and tbf, neither did Goku.

while SSG is a ritual, SSB is not and thats one thing it does hold over that SSJ4. They actually earned.

[Kaiosama]

Vegetas case would fall pretty much the same as Sasukes.

The Gap between Naruto and Sasuke was also huge when Naruto gained the chakra of all the bijus, and then Sasuke gets the rinnegan to become his equal. Vegeta could reach current Gokus level in that kawai blue form and the his pride powerup that make him overcome a Hakaishin level foe in Toppo.

Why are we debating Vegeta's power relative to Goku's when by the end of this arc Goku will be far above Vegeta with his Mastered UI? Vegeta logically shouldn't be able to touch Goku in a fight ever again. These comparisons with Saskue are flawed because he was actually Naruto's equal by the end of series and fought him to a stalemate. When was the last time Vegeta was equal to Goku at the end of a series? DBZ? Nope, SSJ3. GT? Nope, because Goku had control over SSJ4 where as Vegeta could only access it by cheating. It will be the same case with Mastered UI compared to Vegeta's new form.

Saying Vegeta cheated to reach Ssj4 clearly shows your lack of knowledge towards what happened.

The only other way Vegeta could get those waves would be to have his tail pulled out then leave earth to absorbe those waves which would've taken time they didn't have.

After becoming an ape, turning into a golden one then controlling it was his doing, Bulma just found a quick way to turn him into a normal ape, something we've seen him do in the past with the right conditions.

Uh... what? He did cheat. He used a machine to create the conditions to transform and showed no ability to access the form at will after being knocked out of it, unlike Goku. In addition to that, Vegeta's base was far weaker than Goku's at this point and was just bad writing in order to make it possible for fusion again by buffing Vegeta out of nowhere to make him relevant again.

[sintzu]

Why are we debating Vegeta's power relative to Goku's when by the end of this arc Goku will be far above Vegeta with his Mastered UI? Vegeta logically shouldn't be able to touch Goku in a fight ever again. These comparisons with Saskue are flawed because he was actually Naruto's equal by the end of series and fought him to a stalemate. When was the last time Vegeta was equal to Goku at the end of a series? DBZ? Nope, SSJ3. GT? Nope, because Goku had control over SSJ4 where as Vegeta could only access it by cheating. It will be the same case with Mastered UI compared to Vegeta's new form.

Saying Vegeta cheated to reach Ssj4 clearly shows your lack of knowledge towards what happened.

The only other way Vegeta could get those waves would be to have his tail pulled out then leave earth to absorbe those waves which would've taken time they didn't have.

After becoming an ape, turning into a golden one then controlling it was his doing, Bulma just found a quick way to turn him into a normal ape, something we've seen him do in the past with the right conditions.

Uh... what? He did cheat. He used a machine to create the conditions to transform and showed no ability to access the form at will after being knocked out of it, unlike Goku.

We saw him transform in the saiyan arc remember ? Saying he chated because of a lack of time to get his tail pulled out then leave the planet is like saying everyone cheated by using the time room to fight Cell.

[Cetra]

while SSG is a ritual, SSB is not and thats one thing it does hold over that SSJ4. They actually earned.

So a "cheat" (SSJ4, Burutsu Waves/coffee training) as you call it is less legitimate than something that is technically also cheat-corrupted (SSJB, channeling SSJG power while being SSJ) because it is what you also consider a cheat (SSJG, ritual) because the one based on the cheat was "earned". Well, guess what? Both Goku and Vegeta achieved the transformation through actual active control of something. Without that they would not have been able to transform into SSJ4. So even if we go that ridiculous route of considering the other stuff "cheating" they still needed to do their own job to actually and actively be able to use that form.

It is baffling how Z's and Super's extra support gets "explained away" with made up explanations all the time but GT's are public enemy number one.

[Totamo]

, no drawbacks
while SSG is a ritual, SSB is not and thats one thing it does hold over that SSJ4. They actually earned.

So a "cheat" (SSJ4, Burutsu Waves/coffee training) as you call it is less legitimate than something that is technically also cheat-corrupted (SSJB, channeling SSJG power while being SSJ) because it is what you also consider a cheat (SSJG, ritual) because the one based on the cheat was "earned". Well, guess what? Both Goku and Vegeta achieved the transformation through actual active control of something. Without that they would not have been able to transform into SSJ4. So even if we go that ridiculous route of considering the other stuff "cheating" they still needed to do their own job to actually and actively be able to use that form.

It is baffling how Z's and Super's extra support gets "explained away" with made up explanations all the time but GT's are public enemy number one.[/quot
No they didn't, Vegeta always had control over his great ape form and Goku just needed Pan to do it and not only that Goku said Vegeta earned SSJB on his own sooooooooo. I am not making up anything. Can Vegeta even enter SSJ4 later on


There were no 6 months of training under a angelic diety. SSJ4 was literally given to them and they didn't have to train to master it. There were no repercussions, no drawbacks

[Totamo]

while SSG is a ritual, SSB is not and thats one thing it does hold over that SSJ4. They actually earned.

So a "cheat" (SSJ4, Burutsu Waves/coffee training) as you call it is less legitimate than something that is technically also cheat-corrupted (SSJB, channeling SSJG power while being SSJ) because it is what you also consider a cheat (SSJG, ritual) because the one based on the cheat was "earned". Well, guess what? Both Goku and Vegeta achieved the transformation through actual active control of something. Without that they would not have been able to transform into SSJ4. So even if we go that ridiculous route of considering the other stuff "cheating" they still needed to do their own job to actually and actively be able to use that form.

It is baffling how Z's and Super's extra support gets "explained away" with made up explanations all the time but GT's are public enemy number one.

Cam you comprehend words? They got ssjg for free, but they had to work for Blue. SSJG did not come with Blue, they worked for that. Great ape is also free, they were born with had they actually worked for 4, ie not a machine or Goku being turned into child, then ssj4 would be earned.

Its like if my dad gives me a thousand dollars and through hard work I turn
No they didn't, Vegeta always had control over his great ape form so he didn't have to work hard and Goku just needed Pan to do it, he and not only that Goku said Vegeta earned SSJG on his own sooooooooo. I am not making up anything. They trained for Blue, did not for 4. Thats factually true


If you want to play that kind of technically then nothing was ever earned because something outside of their control had to happen, but that would be dumb because there were always requirements they themselves had to train to acquire and SSJ4 kind of doesn't have that because a weakened Goku and a Vegeta that got scratched by super saiyan Gohan achieved it. Thats right, they got weaker and still got this through means that contradict their warrior nature, like hell Goku hated how he got ssjg and Vegeta refused to go through that.

SSJ4 was literally given to them and they didn't have to train to master it either.

[Cetra]

Cam you comprehend words?

Pretty impertinent, are we? Considering how my post included that they got God for free it is more like you do not comprehend. And yes, if a form earned (Blue) is based on something you consider a cheat then this earned form still has a muddy base (God). That is directly comparable to them using external methods to kickstart what they themselves in the end had to do.

No they didn't, Vegeta always had control over his great ape form so he didn't have to work hard and Goku just needed Pan to do it, he and not only that Goku said Vegeta earned SSJG on his own sooooooooo. I am not making up anything. They trained for Blue, did not for 4. Thats factually true

Actively channeling this power, bringing it under control to gain this form is a form of achievement they have to do something for. Whether you like it or not. So the only thing factually true is that you are deliberately skipping things and seeing how you did not even properly read the god to blue relation in my post that is no wonder.

If you want to play that kind of technically then nothing was ever earned because something outside of their control had to happen, but they would be dumb because there were always requirements they themselves had to meet.

Sure, like the free unlocked powers that they were given often enough in the manga. As said - fan explanation.

SSJ4 was literally given to them and they didn't have to train to master it.

How can you even ask me if I comprehend words if you cannot even use the word "literally" properly? It was not literally given to them and no need to train is not the same thing as not doing something to transform for it. Elder Kaioushin did not even have a future plan apart from thinking bringing back Goku's tail would help his strength. What you do is definining "to earn" as something directly related to you seeing someone train and afterwards getting something. Goku and Vegeta do not need to kick and punch through thin air all the time to earn something.

By the way, your posts are pretty hard to read at times. Please check you phrasing next time as well as the paragraphs that you make and do not double post when answering me because I might be missing out the first post this way.

[Totamo]

Cam you comprehend words?

Pretty impertinent, are we? Considering how my post included that they got God for free it is more like you do not comprehend. And yes, if a form earned (Blue) is based on something you consider a cheat then this earned form still has a muddy base (God). That is directly comparable to them using external methods to kickstart what they themselves in the end had to do.

No they didn't, Vegeta always had control over his great ape form so he didn't have to work hard and Goku just needed Pan to do it, he and not only that Goku said Vegeta earned SSJG on his own sooooooooo. I am not making up anything. They trained for Blue, did not for 4. Thats factually true

Actively channeling this power, bringing it under control to gain this form is a form of achievement they have to do something for. Whether you like it or not. So the only thing factually true is that you are deliberately skipping things and seeing how you did not even properly read the god to blue relation in my post that is no wonder.

If you want to play that kind of technically then nothing was ever earned because something outside of their control had to happen, but they would be dumb because there were always requirements they themselves had to meet.

Sure, like the free unlocked powers that they were given often enough in the manga. As said - fan explanation.

SSJ4 was literally given to them and they didn't have to train to master it.

How can you even ask me if I comprehend words if you cannot even use the word "literally" properly? It was not literally given to them and no need to train is not the same thing as not doing something to transform for it.

That was rude of me, I apologize.


Did they get Blue as soon as they got the red hair form. Then no it was not free. Otherwise, it would not have taken 6 months.

No, they channeled nothing, Goku went great ape, went insane, almost killed Pan, decided not to do it and that was it. thats literally what happens. Vegeta gets it instantly as soon as he is done playing around.


The only free transformations that were given in the original were to Gohan, Goten and Trunks and a lot fans myself included call those out as stupid. Goku and Vegeta earned everything they achieved.

Yes, it is. You damn well know it is.Especially if all you have to control your instincts which we were shown wasn't hard. I mean Gohan did that shit when he was 4!!! Yeah they worked really hard for that ultimate form!!! It mind as well be nothing Because there is no reason why you can't give to everyone? You can't give Blue to everyone because Gohan, Goten and Trunks would never ever do what Goku and Vegeta did to achieve it, let alone master it.


4? There is no reason why they can't.


Let me make this clear: Super has given Free forms that are far worse than ssj4 or even ultimate gohan, but when it comes to Blu vs Four, one was earned through training under a diety and the other was given because of a tail and a machine that took no time to master.

[TekTheNinja]

You know I noticed something in Super, whenever they try to make someone useful other than Goku, they make it happen in a stupid way.

I did enjoy what they tried to do with Gohan though... although, I don't really think it amounted to what it could have.

Vegeta's power-ups seem to be given to him just so that he stays in the same tier as Goku... which I think should stop at this point as I find it a bit annoying.

You find it annoying that a guy who spends his entire life training (with the exception of right before Bullas birth) is in the same hemisphere as Goku? Gotcha.

If you ask me that’s one thing Super has done right. In a real life scenario, someone who works their butt off and gets no respect or little pay off is not enjoyable to watch.

What about poor Tenshinhan? The guy lives for martial arts and gets nothing. He can't even surpass Krillin, who was retired until just recently.

[Professor Freeza]

I did enjoy what they tried to do with Gohan though... although, I don't really think it amounted to what it could have.

Vegeta's power-ups seem to be given to him just so that he stays in the same tier as Goku... which I think should stop at this point as I find it a bit annoying.

You find it annoying that a guy who spends his entire life training (with the exception of right before Bullas birth) is in the same hemisphere as Goku? Gotcha.

If you ask me that’s one thing Super has done right. In a real life scenario, someone who works their butt off and gets no respect or little pay off is not enjoyable to watch.

What about poor Tenshinhan? The guy lives for martial arts and gets nothing. He can't even surpass Krillin, who was retired until just recently.

Tien =/= Vegeta. Tien isnt even probably as talented as Krillin. Krillin had a Potential Unlock on Namek. Tien never had that. And the dude spars with Chiatzou, which means nothing. You say he's not as strong as Krillin, but he stopped Semi Perfect Cell, a feat even #16 wasnt able to accomplish.
Tien > Krillin IMO.

Now Vegeta is a Saiyan. Dude was a toddler when he could take out multiple Saibamen at once, something Tien could never achieve after his lifelong training at that point.

Plus, Vegeta is a Godly being, like Goku and Freeza. How many people are stronger than these 3 in all of Multiverse? The Zeno's, GP, The Angels, Jiren and maybe a few GoD's. Thats less than 20 people. Vegeta rightfully stands WITH Goku in the same ballpark.

[TekTheNinja]

You find it annoying that a guy who spends his entire life training (with the exception of right before Bullas birth) is in the same hemisphere as Goku? Gotcha.

If you ask me that’s one thing Super has done right. In a real life scenario, someone who works their butt off and gets no respect or little pay off is not enjoyable to watch.

What about poor Tenshinhan? The guy lives for martial arts and gets nothing. He can't even surpass Krillin, who was retired until just recently.

Tien =/= Vegeta. Tien isnt even probably as talented as Krillin. Krillin had a Potential Unlock on Namek. Tien never had that. And the dude spars with Chiatzou, which means nothing. You say he's not as strong as Krillin, but he stopped Semi Perfect Cell, a feat even #16 wasnt able to accomplish.
Tien > Krillin IMO.

Now Vegeta is a Saiyan. Dude was a toddler when he could take out multiple Saibamen at once, something Tien could never achieve after his lifelong training at that point.

Plus, Vegeta is a Godly being, like Goku and Freeza. How many people are stronger than these 3 in all of Multiverse? The Zeno's, GP, The Angels, Jiren and maybe a few GoD's. Thats less than 20 people. Vegeta rightfully stands WITH Goku in the same ballpark.

But saiyan favoritism in the plot is the only reason Tien ends up like this. Why didn't he ever train in the time chamber? Not a saiyan. Why didn't he learn kaioken when he trained with King Kai? Not a saiyan. Why isn't he interested in learning god ki, or becoming substantially stronger in any way, even though it'd make sense for his character? Not a saiyan. Why did he get the worst tournament of power treatment out of all the universe 7 fighters? Fuck if I know, but he probably would've been treated better if he had the relevancy bonus that saiyan DNA gives ya.

[TheShadowEmperor8055]

I did enjoy what they tried to do with Gohan though... although, I don't really think it amounted to what it could have.

Vegeta's power-ups seem to be given to him just so that he stays in the same tier as Goku... which I think should stop at this point as I find it a bit annoying.

You find it annoying that a guy who spends his entire life training (with the exception of right before Bullas birth) is in the same hemisphere as Goku? Gotcha.

If you ask me that’s one thing Super has done right. In a real life scenario, someone who works their butt off and gets no respect or little pay off is not enjoyable to watch.

What about poor Tenshinhan? The guy lives for martial arts and gets nothing. He can't even surpass Krillin, who was retired until just recently.

If Tenshinhan was gonna be this insignificant as was shown, I’d have rather had Majin Buu.

[Professor Freeza]

What about poor Tenshinhan? The guy lives for martial arts and gets nothing. He can't even surpass Krillin, who was retired until just recently.

Tien =/= Vegeta. Tien isnt even probably as talented as Krillin. Krillin had a Potential Unlock on Namek. Tien never had that. And the dude spars with Chiatzou, which means nothing. You say he's not as strong as Krillin, but he stopped Semi Perfect Cell, a feat even #16 wasnt able to accomplish.
Tien > Krillin IMO.

Now Vegeta is a Saiyan. Dude was a toddler when he could take out multiple Saibamen at once, something Tien could never achieve after his lifelong training at that point.

Plus, Vegeta is a Godly being, like Goku and Freeza. How many people are stronger than these 3 in all of Multiverse? The Zeno's, GP, The Angels, Jiren and maybe a few GoD's. Thats less than 20 people. Vegeta rightfully stands WITH Goku in the same ballpark.

But saiyan favoritism in the plot is the only reason Tien ends up like this. Why didn't he ever train in the time chamber? Not a saiyan. Why didn't he learn kaioken when he trained with King Kai? Not a saiyan. Why isn't he interested in learning god ki, or becoming substantially stronger in any way, even though it'd make sense for his character? Not a saiyan. Why did he get the worst tournament of power treatment out of all the universe 7 fighters? Fuck if I know, but he probably would've been treated better if he had the relevancy bonus that saiyan DNA gives ya.

Why are you bringing out of universe stuff in in universe discussion?

Fine You want plot? Why the fuck didnt Goku kill Buu? Why didnt they use Porunga to bring Ultimate Gohan fight Kid Buu where one half assed KHH would have finished it? NO The Earthlings must take charge. Why the hell Kid buu take so much time to hurt Mr Satan? He's not Cell, he's insane.

Why does Goku get the SSG power and not vegeta? Why didnt Jiren go Full power and Clear house within the first 3 minute and get the SDB and get his wish?


Tien isnt even in the same ballpark is Roshi now. He's Flat out boring.

[Lionel]

What about poor Tenshinhan? The guy lives for martial arts and gets nothing. He can't even surpass Krillin, who was retired until just recently.

Tien =/= Vegeta. Tien isnt even probably as talented as Krillin. Krillin had a Potential Unlock on Namek. Tien never had that. And the dude spars with Chiatzou, which means nothing. You say he's not as strong as Krillin, but he stopped Semi Perfect Cell, a feat even #16 wasnt able to accomplish.
Tien > Krillin IMO.

Now Vegeta is a Saiyan. Dude was a toddler when he could take out multiple Saibamen at once, something Tien could never achieve after his lifelong training at that point.

Plus, Vegeta is a Godly being, like Goku and Freeza. How many people are stronger than these 3 in all of Multiverse? The Zeno's, GP, The Angels, Jiren and maybe a few GoD's. Thats less than 20 people. Vegeta rightfully stands WITH Goku in the same ballpark.

But saiyan favoritism in the plot is the only reason Tien ends up like this. Why didn't he ever train in the time chamber? Not a saiyan. Why didn't he learn kaioken when he trained with King Kai? Not a saiyan. Why isn't he interested in learning god ki, or becoming substantially stronger in any way, even though it'd make sense for his character? Not a saiyan. Why did he get the worst tournament of power treatment out of all the universe 7 fighters? Fuck if I know, but he probably would've been treated better if he had the relevancy bonus that saiyan DNA gives ya.

Yeah, the fact that Super takes the time to raise the pedestals for the Saiyans even more by glamourising their power and their genetics -- as was the case with Goku Black -- while subverting other characters and their thematical traits doesn't make me want to support them, it repels me if anything. Dragon Ball Z was already inundated with enough Saiyan centric content as it was. Now you've got Super continuing the tradition and the next movie is even supposed to be dedicated to their mythology specifically. Toei is playing to what the general audience wants, but you can't tell me that isn't a blatantly subversive monopolisation of the franchise.

[TheOtherDude]

You find it annoying that a guy who spends his entire life training (with the exception of right before Bullas birth) is in the same hemisphere as Goku? Gotcha.

If you ask me that’s one thing Super has done right. In a real life scenario, someone who works their butt off and gets no respect or little pay off is not enjoyable to watch.

What about poor Tenshinhan? The guy lives for martial arts and gets nothing. He can't even surpass Krillin, who was retired until just recently.

If Tenshinhan was gonna be this insignificant as was shown, I’d have rather had Majin Buu.

I’m pretty annoyed about how they treat Tien as well. He’s the only human who is consistently training, but is still not as strong as Krillin or heck even Roshi.

Krillin has retired twice but somehow always gets a better showing than Tien? It’s bull crap. Having Krillins “potential unleashed” doesn’t change the fact that he was defenseless against Recoome like Vegeta and Gohan. Shortly afterwards we saw Tien and company destroy the Ginyu Force. There’s no excuse except for bias between the writers.

[TekTheNinja]

In general I guess, point is that characters don't do what It would make sense for their character to do in any given situation because Toriyama/Toyotaro/Toei are actively avoiding making them relevant because presumably, they don't consider marketable enough. Why can't anyone else, even the ones who love fighting and getting stronger, ever actually try to get strong enough to be actually in a reasonable ballpark? Wouldn't it be out of character for them to just shy away from any opportunity for big gains? Because the writers simply don't care.

[Araki]

It's far from the first time someone says this, but I seriously doubt Toriyama cares about characters being marketable or not. Roshi isn't exactly a best seller and he brought him back to the front lines.
Things like Freeza's comebacks are often dismissed as "oh, it's just to sell merchandise" when he's barely in any. Generally, villains aren't even appealing to kids in Japan, often getting only adult-oriented merchandising.

The rule of thumb seems to be "whenever I don't like something, that means they're doing it just for marketing reasons!!11!". It gets especially bad when even nonsensical filler from Z is used to prove a point.

[Totamo]

In general I guess, point is that characters don't do what It would make sense for their character to do in any given situation because Toriyama/Toyotaro/Toei are actively avoiding making them relevant because presumably, they don't consider marketable enough. Why can't anyone else, even the ones who love fighting and getting stronger, ever actually try to get strong enough to be actually in a reasonable ballpark? Wouldn't it be out of character for them to just shy away from any opportunity for big gains? Because the writers simply don't care.

because most of the fans don't care, if they did, you don't think they wouldn't raise them to prominence.


This is going to hurt to hear, but honestly Yamcha is more profitable as a joke than he is as a fighter.

[Xeogran]

It's Dawn of the Final Days, guys.

Just a few hours left, until we learn whether there will be any Fusion involved in the Grand Finale.

Goku+Vegeta? Goku+Freeza?! Vegeta+Freeza?!?!

Soon...

[Torturephile]

It's Dawn of the Final Days, guys.

Just a few hours left, until we learn whether there will be any Fusion involved in the Grand Finale.

Goku+Vegeta? Goku+Freeza?! Vegeta+Freeza?!?!

Soon...

I wish for some Vegeta and Freeza, just because those two had a rough relationship.