Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Rank these characters, let's see if we can find some kind of agreement here.

Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Merged Zamasu
Ultra Instinct Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Kefla
Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta
God of Destruction Toppo

[jeffbr92]

Rank these characters, let's see if we can find some kind of agreement here.

1. Ultra Instinct Goku
2. Vegetto Blue
3. Hakaishin Toppo
4. SSJRB Vegeta
5. Merged Zamasu
6. SSJ2 Kefla

[TheSaiyanGod]

Rank these characters, let's see if we can find some kind of agreement here.

Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Merged Zamasu
Ultra Instinct Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Kefla
Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta
God of Destruction Toppo

1- Super Saiyan Blue Vegetto
2-Ultra Instinct Goku (EP 116)
3- Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta
4- GoD Toppo
5- Super Saiyan 2 Kefla
6- Merged Zamasu

Even if we consider that Kefla SSJ2> UI Goku (EP 110), this does not mean that Kefla> Vegeta and Toppo.

Toppo was declared to be on par with the Hakaishins. UI Goku (EP 110) only closed the power gap between him and heavily suppressed Jiren, he was not placed on the same level as the Hakaishins (I also doubt that suppressed Jiren on EP 110 was stronger than a hakaishin))
So probably Toppo> UI Goku (110), after all, GoD Toppo> heavily suppressed Jiren (EP 110)

If Vegeta> GoD Toppo, then Vegeta> Kefla SSJ2.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Super Saiyan Blue Vegito>SSJ2 Kefla(Rage boost)>Ultra Instinct Goku(Vs SSJ2 Kefla)>=SSJ2 Kefla>Ultra Instinct Goku(Initial)>SSJ Kefla=Universe 7 Spirit Bomb>Merged Zamasu(Light of Justice)>>>>>Beyond Blue Vegeta=SSB Kaiokenx20 Goku>God of Destruction Toppo

[Bullza]

Well that's three completely different opinions there.

Don't you think that you're putting Super Saiyan Blue Vegito and Merged Zamasu too far apart?

Super Saiyan Blue Vegito has to be above Super Saiyan 2 Kefla, that much is a given same as Ultra Instinct.

You'd think Merged Zamasu would be above Super Saiyan 2 Kefla as well because he didn't seem as far off from Vegito as you'd think Kefla would be.

Black was also vastly more powerful than Kale and Zamasu should probably be on the same level as Caulifla so you'd think that would also make Merged Zamasu more powerful.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Suppressed Jiren was stronger than Merged Zamasu and Initial UI Goku was on par with that Jiren. SSJ2 Kefla was stronger than both of them.

I just go with Vegito being suppressed against Light of Justice Merged Zamasu.
Merged Zamasu powers up even further after Vegito beats him in their brief scuffle with Vegito flaring up an aura in return, yet Merged Zamasu after powering up couldn't even keep up with Vegito according to Vegito himself and he gets one-sidedly pummeled. Vegito just didn't destroy his body in time before the fusion ran out. Then Trunks came in and cleaned up.

Kefla probably has more powerful forms than Merged Zamasu. LSSJ took Base Kale from being a weakling to being able to compete with Super Saiyan God.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Well that's three completely different opinions there.

Don't you think that you're putting Super Saiyan Blue Vegito and Merged Zamasu too far apart?

Super Saiyan Blue Vegito has to be above Super Saiyan 2 Kefla, that much is a given same as Ultra Instinct.

You'd think Merged Zamasu would be above Super Saiyan 2 Kefla as well because he didn't seem as far off from Vegito as you'd think Kefla would be.

Black was also vastly more powerful than Kale and Zamasu should probably be on the same level as Caulifla so you'd think that would also make Merged Zamasu more powerful.

Maybe, but I do not think Zamasu was so close to Vegetto.

Vegetto stopped Zamasu's Ki attack with one hand and dominated him during the fight, mocking him several times.

Vegeta said on EP 122 that he had never felt a Ki as strong as Jiren's.
And Jiren was suppressed.
That is, I think we could say that suppressed Jiren> Zamasu.

Goku and Vegeta were still able to fight a powered up Jiren.

Initial Goku UI has only the same power as Jiren suppressed. Currently, Jiren is using a lot more power than against this Goku, and yet Goku and Vegeta (EP 126) are able to face him
Toppo at the beginning of the fight was also defeating Vegeta, but later was overcome.

Then I would say Toppo> suppressed Jiren (EP 110) and Toppo> UI Goku (EP 110)

Super Saiyan Blue Vegito>SSJ2 Kefla(Rage boost)>Ultra Instinct Goku(Vs SSJ2 Kefla)>=SSJ2 Kefla>Ultra Instinct Goku(Initial)>SSJ Kefla=Universe 7 Spirit Bomb>Merged Zamasu(Light of Justice)>>>>>Beyond Blue Vegeta=SSB Kaiokenx20 Goku>God of Destruction Toppo

So for you

Kefla SSJ> Hakaishins
Goku SSB KK tired (who dominated SSJ Kefla)> Hakaishins

This makes no sense. I know you still consider Toppo's talk on exhibition tournament about him not being sure he would beat Goku, but she just does not fit here now. Toppo did not know about the SSB KK x20.

Before the fight against Jiren in EP 109, it was emphasized that Goku would use KK x20, meaning Goku had not used kaioken on that level before, he just showed it in that fight.

It is much easier to admit that GoD mode Toppo has not yet been created.

In addition, Vegeta clearly surpassed his previous power level during the fight against Toppo, so he eventually became stronger than SSB KK x20 (before that, Vegeta was being defeated)

[Kenneth La Torre]

Goku getting a power up after the arc where vegito blue is introduced feels the same as the B.o.G situation. Vegito was the most powerful z warrior ever, then came SSG Goku, and surpasses anything a fusion of vegeta and goku could have accomplished in that era. Ssb vegito was so powerful, that it was compared to beerus in terms of power, now comes UI Goku, and he is bound to surpass that level of power fighting jiren. And jiren, don’t get me started on jiren. The dude is so OP I don’t even think a ssb vegito can scratch jiren if he goes full power. Just look at jiren in the preview, the dude has 4 auras on top of each other. Like damn, chill out bro.

But anyways, if this is like the B.o.G situation, a Mastered UI goku at the end will turn out much superior to vegito blue.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

So for you

Kefla SSJ> Hakaishins
Goku SSB KK tired (who dominated SSJ Kefla)> Hakaishins

This makes no sense. I know you still consider Toppo's talk on exhibition tournament about him not being sure he would beat Goku, but she just does not fit here now. Toppo did not know about the SSB KK x20.

Before the fight against Jiren in EP 109, it was emphasized that Goku would use KK x20, meaning Goku had not used kaioken on that level before, he just showed it in that fight.

It is much easier to admit that GoD mode Toppo has not yet been created.

In addition, Vegeta clearly surpassed his previous power level during the fight against Toppo, so he eventually became stronger than SSB KK x20 (before that, Vegeta was being defeated)

Yes, SSB Kaiokenx20 Goku>God of Destruction Toppo. It doesn't matter if Toppo didn't know about Kaiokenx20 at the exhibition match.

And SSJ Kefla is equal to the Spirit Bomb that Belmod was worried would beat Jiren. That means that the Spirit Bomb was above the God of Destruction in terms of power.

There is no in story implication of sort of any power increase from Vegeta. Vegeta became more determined, resolved himself and started beating Toppo. That's basically the only thing that can be said about that scene, putting all interpretations aside. No statements from any character about Vegeta's power getting exponentially bigger. The same Vegeta is still going to be shown performing equally with Kaiokenx20 Goku. I don't see the point in keeping up the farce.

[TheSaiyanGod]

So for you

Kefla SSJ> Hakaishins
Goku SSB KK tired (who dominated SSJ Kefla)> Hakaishins

This makes no sense. I know you still consider Toppo's talk on exhibition tournament about him not being sure he would beat Goku, but she just does not fit here now. Toppo did not know about the SSB KK x20.

Before the fight against Jiren in EP 109, it was emphasized that Goku would use KK x20, meaning Goku had not used kaioken on that level before, he just showed it in that fight.

It is much easier to admit that GoD mode Toppo has not yet been created.

In addition, Vegeta clearly surpassed his previous power level during the fight against Toppo, so he eventually became stronger than SSB KK x20 (before that, Vegeta was being defeated)

Yes, SSB Kaiokenx20 Goku>God of Destruction Toppo. It doesn't matter if Toppo didn't know about Kaiokenx20 at the exhibition match.

And SSJ Kefla is equal to the Spirit Bomb that Belmod was worried would beat Jiren. That means that the Spirit Bomb was above the God of Destruction in terms of power.

There is no in story implication of sort of any power increase from Vegeta. Vegeta became more determined and started beating Toppo. That's basically the only thing that can be said about that scene, putting all interpretations aside. The same Vegeta is still going to be shown performing equally with Kaiokenx20 Goku. I don't see the point in keeping up the farce.

Vermoud was also worried about Vegeta's Final Flash, but even so the technique was not able to hurt Jiren.
Goku's Genki Dama was being rebuffed by Jiren suppressed only with his eyes. This does not mean that Genki Dama> Hakaishin

How did Vegeta not increase his power?
At the beginning of the fight he was being defeated by Toppo. That is, of course, Toppo had already surpassed Vegeta Royal Blue and SSB KK x20.
But after thinking about his family, Vegeta creates a considerable power difference between him and Toppo (Toppo does not hit any hits).
Then something changed. No one talked about a rage boost, but some power increase happened.

And the fact that Vegeta fights alongside SSB KK x20 Goku does not mean he has that level, either.
In EP 126 he was fighting alongside Goku SSB (without the Kaioken), and Goku did not show inferior performance. This means absolutely nothing, after all Goku is unable to activate the UI

[Kenneth La Torre]

Its illogical in my opinion to put Kefla ss2 above toppo, as toppos god of destruction power was only unlocked at 125. The dude was never thinking about giving up justice when he went against goku in the exhibition match, so he was just talking about his full power as a candidate, not as a real hakaishin. Ssj2 Kefla was not impressive at all, and was only stated to possibly be superior to gokus level in 110. If we take this into account, then a more powered up jiren is way above Kefla ssj2, and current goku and vegeta were doing quite well against jiren. Toppo as a hakaishin was kind of casually overwhelming this new ssb vegeta, and only with a pride boost (yes, I’m calling it that) was he able to overcome toppo.

All remaining fighters from the tournament from 125 and up (besides 17 and golden freeza) are beyond Kefla ssj2.

[ZombieVito]

Rank these characters, let's see if we can find some kind of agreement here.

Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Merged Zamasu
Ultra Instinct Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Kefla
Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta
God of Destruction Toppo

Vegetto
Zamasu
Toppo
Goku (For now)
Kefla
Vegeta

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Vermoud was also worried about Vegeta's Final Flash, but even so the technique was not able to hurt Jiren.
Goku's Genki Dama was being rebuffed by Jiren suppressed only with his eyes. This does not mean that Genki Dama> Hakaishin

How did Vegeta not increase his power?
At the beginning of the fight he was being defeated by Toppo. That is, of course, Toppo had already surpassed Vegeta Royal Blue and SSB KK x20.
But after thinking about his family, Vegeta creates a considerable power difference between him and Toppo (Toppo does not hit any hits).
Then something changed. No one talked about a rage boost, but some power increase happened.

And the fact that Vegeta fights alongside SSB KK x20 Goku does not mean he has that level, either.
In EP 126 he was fighting alongside Goku SSB (without the Kaioken), and Goku did not show inferior performance. This means absolutely nothing, after all Goku is unable to activate the UI

Yeah, the Final Flash was above Belmod's own power, otherwise he wouldn't be worried.

You're assuming that a power increase occurred. One wasn't implied unlike every other time Vegeta got mad and his power jumped up. Vegeta resolved himself and put in more effort. That's literally all one can draw from the scene without assumptions.

Their separate performance against Jiren in SSB Kaiokenx20 and Beyond Blue are identical. I'm not sure how you're claiming the same narrative is portrayed by cherrypicking one scene of Goku fighting in Blue. It's like saying that 17 and Final form Frieza were portrayed as equals.

[SayianBeyondGod]

Yeah, the Final Flash was above Belmod's own power, otherwise he wouldn't be worried.

It could be the fact that Vegeta was very strong for a mortal or had a very big increase in power which worried him not necessarily that he surpassed Belmod. SSB was enough to worry the Gods, it doesn't mean it rivals or surpass them. At best you could argue it was coming close to a GOD power but again I doubt it'll surpass it otherwise Beyond Blue Vegeta would be much more powerful than a GOD as a casual ki blast can push a more powerful Jiren.

Their separate performance against Jiren in SSB Kaiokenx20 and Beyond Blue are identical.

How? Fighting side by side while throwing blows in the same time doesn't mean they're equal in power, otherwise by your logic Future Zamasu is on pair with Goku Black or SSJ2 Caulifa is on pair with mastered Bersker. If you paid attention to the fight Vegeta was more on the offensive while uztiling more ki powered attacks such as a casual Ki blast or a casual final flash which was enough to push a more powered up Jiren where as it took the spirit bomb or full powered final flash to do so before with a more suppressed Jiren. It's evident that Vegeta was superior to Goku when on the offensive or was displayed to be more powerful in other words.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Honestly, belmod freaks out over everything. But neither vegeta nor goku have yet to reach or surpass someone in belmods caliber (which is also in beerus level if we go with the manga). The writers are doing this to make the audience aware of the fact that they are increasing in power at a ridiculous rate, not that they have surpassed the G.o.Ds power.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Now that Jiren is finally using 2% of his power we may find out just how far above the GoD level he is.

[SayianBeyondGod]

Ssj2 Kefla was not impressive at all, and was only stated to possibly be superior to gokus level in 110. If we take this into account, then a more powered up jiren is way above Kefla ssj2, and current goku and vegeta were doing quite well against jiren..

While I diagree with the former as it's more so implied that she surpassed SSBKK Goku, even in episode 122 prior to Jiren starting to use more power SSB Vegeta implies Jiren has strongest energy he encountered, hence the same Jiren he fought was above SSJ2 Kefla whom Vegeta already sensed the Ki of. If we were to take Vegeta other statement literal in which he claims Jiren was faster and stronger when he fought Goku (most likely UI), then even in the Jiren in episode 109-110 was stronger than SSJ2 Kefla. It should prove that UI Goku even in episode 110 that rivaled Jiren would be above SSJ2 Kefla which makes sense, as she was being overpowered by a more fatigue version while claiming "impossible" when grasping her stomach in pain and struggling to get up, so her expectations were exceeded. The begins to happen once his ki aura ignites and saying he's getting the hang of this after she mocks his punches. In the same time she was struggling with his speed. It just shows how much fatigue UI Goku held back against Kefla earlier in the fight, so this reinforces the fact piccolo was referring to SSBKK Goku. I think this can come to show how powerful Vegeta is in SSB alone, and I would say he'll be relevant to SSJ2 Kefla, seeing he was able to get critical hits on a more powerful Jiren.

If people are really going to believe she twice the spirit bomb, then I guess the final flash would be much higher than that. But I think the fact that suppress Jiren had held enough power back rival the spirit bomb as he was stalemating UI Goku whom was on that level or when he showed effort to push the spirit bomb even further proves SSJ2 Kefla wasn't truly Spirit bomb level.

[wolflonnie]

Rank these characters, let's see if we can find some kind of agreement here.

Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Merged Zamasu
Ultra Instinct Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Kefla
Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta
God of Destruction Toppo

SSB Vegetto
UI Goku
Royal Blue Vegeta
Merged Zamasu
GoD Toppo
SSJ2 Kefla

[ssbgoku]

Now that Jiren is finally using 2% of his power we may find out just how far above the GoD level he is.

Yeah, that was overstimating/overhyping character exactly means... I mean there is no way for character to use aura/flare and expelling a least a bit of trouble to be less then 5%. For me it is just bad writting or incomming nerf for this character's power or retconn(silent retconn) so people may miss it(at least kids). This is just essentialy how toei and his writters operate/do.

I would say that the Jiren with red aura was close to 10%(most likely less) and he was dominating slightly against goku and vegeta going at him. However then he flared his aura two times at least once in special just before limit breaker form fade out before he could connect his punch with jiren and other time when he crashed into big rock so he forced his way by powering up through it. For me all Jiren's power limit occurences:

[*] 109 episode Jiren was 5% when he was pushing back Genki Dama of fatigued/tired goku. Most likely it will retconn(it is comming guys, do not fool ourselves) that he was using even to 10% but easily pushed Genkidama back.
[*] 110 episode Jiren was using 5%-10% and in the end when he was forced to blast fading limit breaker form goku he used up to 10% for second.
[*] Against hit Jiren most likely was using around 2%, and then 5% when he pushed through genki dama.
[*] 122 episode Jiren was also most likely supressed to 5% against both ssb goku and ssb vegeta
[*] 123 episode Jiren was maybe be between 2%-5% and when Jiren use red glowing aura then he may be up to 10%
[*] 124 episode Jiren keep using between 5%-10% and once he powered up/was showing hint of his true power it may be between 20%-50% by showing off his casual punch packing so much power.

Before unleashing full power Jiren is just a bit less then 10%. Watch my words guys, but Jiren >=10x 20xssb kk goku. UI goku against Kefla may be at least 20% of Jiren to 30% max. Anyway less then 50% so Jiren could comfortably ignore him.

[SayianBeyondGod]

Rank these characters, let's see if we can find some kind of agreement here.

Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Merged Zamasu
Ultra Instinct Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Kefla
Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta
God of Destruction Toppo

From what is shown so far:

1) Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
2) Merged Zamasu (I assume in his mutated state if not below Goku)
3) Beyond Blue Vegeta
4) God of Destruction Toppo
5) Ultra Instinct Goku
6) Super Saiyan 2 Kefla