Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheSaiyanGod]

Vegetto stopped Zamasu's Ki attack with one hand and dominated him during the fight, mocking him several times.

What about Zamasu taking the Final Kamehameha point blank with no damage?

Initial Goku UI has only the same power as Jiren suppressed.

And because a suppressed Jiren is more powerful than Merged Zamasu then so must Ultra Instinct Goku if he was able to match him? That would be a good point I suppose but that same suppressed Jiren must have more power than Super Saiyan 2 Kefla as well who was stronger than Ultra Instinct Goku from Episode 110 so maybe Goku wasn't as close as it seemed.

I believe that Zamasu only survived because of his immortality (though his immortality was defective because of Black, he was still able to regenerate).

Anyway, I do not think it means he was close to Vegetto's power, after all in the next scene Vegetto tells Zamasu '' say goodbye '' and when he hits the punch, a smoke starts to flow from Zamasu's face, as if he was breaking up (but the merger was over before).
Vegetto also dominated Zamasu throughout the fight.

Yes, suppressed Jiren is apparently stronger than Merged Zamasu, and UI Goku was declared to be on the same level as Jiren suppressed.
Maybe Kefla SSJ2 is not really stronger than the Goku UI of EP 110.
Anyway, suppressed Jiren is probably stronger than Kefla SSJ2 too, after all Vegeta says he had never felt such a strong Ki (after having felt Kefla and Merged Zamasu's ki)

Vermoud was also worried about Vegeta's Final Flash, but even so the technique was not able to hurt Jiren.
Goku's Genki Dama was being rebuffed by Jiren suppressed only with his eyes. This does not mean that Genki Dama> Hakaishin

How did Vegeta not increase his power?
At the beginning of the fight he was being defeated by Toppo. That is, of course, Toppo had already surpassed Vegeta Royal Blue and SSB KK x20.
But after thinking about his family, Vegeta creates a considerable power difference between him and Toppo (Toppo does not hit any hits).
Then something changed. No one talked about a rage boost, but some power increase happened.

And the fact that Vegeta fights alongside SSB KK x20 Goku does not mean he has that level, either.
In EP 126 he was fighting alongside Goku SSB (without the Kaioken), and Goku did not show inferior performance. This means absolutely nothing, after all Goku is unable to activate the UI

Yeah, the Final Flash was above Belmod's own power, otherwise he wouldn't be worried.

You're assuming that a power increase occurred. One wasn't implied unlike every other time Vegeta got mad and his power jumped up. Vegeta resolved himself and put in more effort. That's literally all one can draw from the scene without assumptions.

Their separate performance against Jiren in SSB Kaiokenx20 and Beyond Blue are identical. I'm not sure how you're claiming the same narrative is portrayed by cherrypicking one scene of Goku fighting in Blue. It's like saying that 17 and Final form Frieza were portrayed as equals.

Vermoud was only surprised by Vegeta's vast increase in power, that does not mean that at that moment, Vegeta was superior to him.
Vermoud was also surprised with SSB before in the exhibition tournament

Vegeta put '' more effort ''? So he was being defeated by Toppo simply because he was not putting enough effort, even saying he could not lose?
If he was being defeated before, but managed to overcome Toppo, then he got stronger. We do not know how, but it was thanks to his determination to protect his family.

And what you said about Vegeta with his new form being matched to Goku SSB KK x20 just by being fighting next to him makes no sense.
Following this logic, Zamasu has the same power as Black SSJ Rosé and Caulifla SSJ2 has the same power as Kale Berserker.
Goku in that episode used only the SSB against Jiren and did not show inferior performance, does that mean he is stronger than Vegeta?

Honestly, belmod freaks out over everything. But neither vegeta nor goku have yet to reach or surpass someone in belmods caliber (which is also in beerus level if we go with the manga). The writers are doing this to make the audience aware of the fact that they are increasing in power at a ridiculous rate, not that they have surpassed the G.o.Ds power.

Maybe Goku and Vegeta have not surpassed Vermoud or Beerus yet, but they are definitely Hakaishin tier. After all, Toppo was a Hakaishin too and was overtaken by Vegeta.

With SSB, Goku and Vegeta were only able to rival the Hakaishins, but they were still much weaker
Now, they really are comparable to the Hakaishins and could give a good fight to them, maybe even beat some

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I don't know about Goku and Vegeta being on the level of the Hakaishin just yet.

Vegeta had to ascend to a power over 20 times stronger than SSB, and this still wasn't enough to do much of anything to Toppo's Hakaishin power.

Even when he seemed to have the upperhand in CQC after cementing his resolve, Vegeta's Final Explosion was barely holding off Toppo's well-charged Hakai Energy before ultimately consuming it and defeating him. This is the kind of move that goes beyond a user's limits, as seen when SS2 Vegeta used it to destroy the stronger Majin Buu albeit not permanently.

I'd say that Vegeta began to close the gap when he cemented his resolve against Toppo and could briefly overtake even the Hakaishin-level Pride Trooper in melee combat, but the gap was still large enough that in a pure struggle of power, Vegeta needed to use a move that surpassed his normal limits in order to secure the win.

[Kenneth La Torre]

@thesaiyangod
Yes, I meant beerus and belmods tier, they haven’t reached that yet. They are definitely hakaishin tier, and I think they can take on the mid tier hakaishins, but belmod has been shown in the manga to be the god tier of G.o.Ds, along with beerus and quitela.

[Olympian]

She couldn't do anything because she couldn't see nor sense his power. Yamcha could because his opponent wasn't attacking him constantly.

It`s not like Yamcha had a lot of breathing room in that fight.

[ZombieVito]

I don't understand how people can say Vegetto "dominated" Zamasu.

The former not only got knocked to the ground but he also had scratches and failed to do what Trunks did.

Also, Vegeta is not GoD tier. If he was, he wouldnt have used an attack that literally killed him before to beat Toppo.

If anything this episode reduced the gap between GoD and BSSB tier a bit.

[SupremeKai25]

I don't understand how people can say Vegetto "dominated" Zamasu.

They are referring only to the manga battle. Obviously, in the anime, Vegito didn't 'dominate' Fused Zamasu, and as you said there was a moment when Zamasu even overpowered Vegito.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I don't understand how people can say Vegetto "dominated" Zamasu.

The former not only got knocked to the ground but he also had scratches and failed to do what Trunks did.

Also, Vegeta is not GoD tier. If he was, he wouldnt have used an attack that literally killed him before to beat Toppo.

If anything this episode reduced the gap between GoD and BSSB tier a bit.

Well, in the beginning of the anime version and through the manga version, Vegito had no trouble at all with Merged Zamasu, though how people can say that in the latter half of the fight, I don't know.

I also highlighted how I don't think Vegeta reached the level of the Hakaishin overall, merely used a limit-breaking attack to defeat Toppo who is on their level. We definitely have the same idea on this front.

[ZombieVito]

She couldn't do anything because she couldn't see nor sense his power. Yamcha could because his opponent wasn't attacking him constantly.

It`s not like Yamcha had a lot of breathing room in that fight.

The thing is, after the initial attack 18 lands on the ground, Gamisaras attacks around her and then continues to attack her head on.

18 had all the time on the world to counterattack but couldn't. Hell, Gamisaras even broke her defense.

He's flat out stronger, no way around that.

[buutenks]

Oh ye, Vegeta surpasses a GoD.

Vegeta KOs Beerus with his life risking blow..come at me peeps!!!!

[TheDipDap1234]

She couldn't do anything because she couldn't see nor sense his power. Yamcha could because his opponent wasn't attacking him constantly.

It`s not like Yamcha had a lot of breathing room in that fight.

The thing is, after the initial attack 18 lands on the ground, Gamisaras attacks around her and then continues to attack her head on.

18 had all the time on the world to counterattack but couldn't. Hell, Gamisaras even broke her defense.

He's flat out stronger, no way around that.

Again, 18 didn't know what was going on and what is happening to her. Yamcha knew he had to fight with an invisible guy from the start. Krillin only told her who she's fighting with when Gamisaras was constantly attacking her non-stop. Not to mention his attacks didn't even cause any damage to 18, as she was completely fine after all those attacks. Shosa with his kick made more damage to 18 than Gamisaras did with his constant attacks.

[CJStriker_CBR]

- Piccolo strangled a SS2 Gohan that fought on even grounds with Goku in E75.
- Maybe I should bump 18 and Ribrianne over Gotenks but they are base tier. Zirloin gained all of RIbrianne's power and couldn't even land a hit on an exhausted Goku.
- While Piccolo did say Gamisaras was nothing, he did beat 18 up. Even while fighting the invisible man, Yamcha could still evade and even hit him. 18 was completely helpless.

He did but in the ToP he did nothing to suggest he's at that level. Ribrianne also fought evenly with SSJ Vegeta while laughing, but later on she couldn't defeat his base form. If you think Piccolo is SSJ2 level because of that, then you should also think Ribrianne is SSJ level because of her first fight with Vegeta.
Ribrianne had 2 other transformations, Zirlion did not.
18 wasn't damaged at all by his attacks though.

Nothing indicates he's base tier either and it's less ridicuolous for his Makankosappo to hurt Blue tier characters if he's SS2 tier.

Vegeta was obviously holding back since as you said, he later beat her in base. I also don't think her transformations were that big of a boost.

18 should have been able to do something like Yamcha did if she was stronger though. She was completely helpless and about to get ringed out.

That does not Indicate that Vegeta was holding back in the least in the fight with Ribrianne in episode 102. Vegeta admitted he was impressed by Ribrianne's strength, so WHY then if she was weaker then SSJ-Vegeta did he not power down to base?! Vegeta is really a straight forward character, if a level was not necessary he would have changed back, but by the writing standards at that time Toei was Telling Us Ribrianne could very easily Tank SSJ-Vegeta with little effort.

Honestly the major problem with the power scaling came after 102-103, Toei for no explained reasons lost care in power scaling Ribrianne for one reason or another, however that does not undercut her showings in both her Fights with SSJ-Vegeta and Android 17 who where both impressed by her showing of power. I would not call them fibbers in these cases and just saying Ribrianne at her start was at these levels does not put Vegeta or 17 in any danger yet of being overtaken by Ribrianne, so Vegeta and 17 are still Top Tier.

Also if Base was all that was needed for Goku to Beat Ribrianne in 109, then Blue-Goku was not even close to necessary to go to for a sneak attack on her that really left now damage on her. So their has to be something in that as well Toei wanted to go for but just the next writer forgot to build on.

Honestly Toei Drop the ball on scaling out Ribrianne's level, Toei go lazy and just showed they lost care in scaling around those episodes and the inconstancy seemed all over the place around 107-119. It was left to fans to scale her power level like we are doing here.

I say Ribrianne as least is Between SSJ-1 present level at base, but could liking in base go as high as SSJ-2 Level. Her at Super Level is at least SSJ-2 and in Giant Form likely SSJ-3 levels or maybe alittle, no small levels and well Beyond Buu Levels, but Does not in any way put in Danger Vegeta in Losing or being Overpowered by her. 18 scales with this cause she got what looked like a huge boast in power in 117 from her own power of Love, as seen when she though to her family. 18 IMO was altered by her fight with Ribrianne becoming more powerful after that encounter.

Both ladies IMO still showed impressive levels, but I cared more about their impressive character arcs. But to say these levels are not impressive is undercutting that these are all levels Goku and Vegeta at one time called their best, everyone evolves at their own pace and these levels are still Crazy Over the Top to Undercut either Ribrianne or 18.

[ZombieVito]

Again, 18 didn't know what was going on and what is happening to her. Yamcha knew he had to fight with an invisible guy from the start. Krillin only told her who she's fighting with when Gamisaras was constantly attacking her non-stop. Not to mention his attacks didn't even cause any damage to 18, as she was completely fine after all those attacks. Shosa with his kick made more damage to 18 than Gamisaras did with his constant attacks.

Dude... He broke her defense and overwhelmed her by pure strength.

He also attacked in a straight line so she should have been able to do something if she was stronger.

I'm tired to repeat the same thing over and over so we will have to agree to disagree on this.

Also the poster above me, there's ZERO chance Ribrianne is SS tier in her base form. An exhausted Goku was doing just fine with a fighter that had the same power as her.

[Hugo Boss]

Rank these characters, let's see if we can find some kind of agreement here.

Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Merged Zamasu
Ultra Instinct Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Kefla
Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta
God of Destruction Toppo

I suppose that is your rank, no?

In my opinion, there are several factors that can affect my placements, such as durability, stamina, damage output, movements etc..

• Starting with durability. Saiyans have naturally more than the others and I would say fusions tend to be even more durable. So..
  Vegetto (5) > Kefla (4) > Zamasu (3) > Goku = Vegeta (2) > Toppo (1)
• Then, stamina. I think the Saiyans in general have less than they wish and that becomes a great problem when merging together, except for Zamasu, who was nearly invencible.
  Zamasu (5) > Toppo (4) > Goku = Vegeta (3) > Kefla (2) > Vegetto (1)
• The most controversial one, damage output. Saiyans are generally very good attackers, specially if fused. Though I would say Zamasu is a bit underwhelming in this aspect. Hakai also deals a ridiculous amount of damage and should be at least in the middle.
  Vegetto (5) > Kefla (4) > Vegeta = Toppo (3) > Goku (2) > Zamasu (1)
• My favorite one, movements. I think Ultra Instinct reigns above all in the current rank. Note that Toppo has so much bulk that it backfires.
  Goku (5) > Vegetto (4) > Kefla (3) > Zamasu = Vegeta (2) > Toppo (1)
• Another controversial aspect, battle sense. One word: Saiyans. Though, Kefla is a bit reckless and Zamasu is not totally Saiyan. As a GoD candidate and the leader of a team, I think Toppo deserves respect.
  Vegetto (5) > Goku = Vegeta (4) > Toppo (3) > Zamasu (2) > Kefla (1)

Finally, my results:
Vegetto (20)
Goku (16)
Vegeta (14)
Kefla (14)
Zamasu (13)
Toppo (12)

Keep in mind the points just represent a mere estimation, everything is entirely subjective, so it's very likely to have disagreement on some aspects, specially damage output. But I guess it would be fun to see what the others think or if they can add something I didn't consider. To break the ties, I will choose stamina, which I think is the most important in a battle.

[SayianBeyondGod]

The fact is that SSB Vegeta was able to throw critical shots that breached Jiren barrier whom was more suppressed than when fight UI Goku but yet said to have the strongest Ki Vegeta felt. This may suggest Vegeta is rival SSBKK from episode 109 and prior, not to mention he may be compare. I'm inclined to believe that Blue Vegeta would be mostly equal with SS2 Kefla by now. I could say the same with Goku whom in SSB could also be equal to her given his fight in 123 with Jiren in blue alone or the fact he only needs normal kaioken to push Jiren more than x20 with his attacks being sharper. This may go with a theory that I'm thinking about with both have increased by a factor of at least x20 during the entire Tournament of Power given all the power boosts, zenkais, and what not.

I mean Goku for example prior to the Tournament was able to fight Hit without Kaioken yet needed x10 prior, so it's not too far of a reach from what we've seen from the series.

[CJStriker_CBR]

Again, 18 didn't know what was going on and what is happening to her. Yamcha knew he had to fight with an invisible guy from the start. Krillin only told her who she's fighting with when Gamisaras was constantly attacking her non-stop. Not to mention his attacks didn't even cause any damage to 18, as she was completely fine after all those attacks. Shosa with his kick made more damage to 18 than Gamisaras did with his constant attacks.

Dude... He broke her defense and overwhelmed her by pure strength.

He also attacked in a straight line so she should have been able to do something if she was stronger.

I'm tired to repeat the same thing over and over so we will have to agree to disagree on this.

Also the poster above me, there's ZERO chance Ribrianne is SS tier in her base form. An exhausted Goku was doing just fine with a fighter that had the same power as her.

Zirloin was the guy and while I give him ALLOT and I mean ALLOT of Respect with his showing in 118, while he did gain all of Ribrianne's powers for a time I don't think he himself was able achieve her full levels of Strength. Only buy combining his attack with Rabanra and Zarbuto could they achieve a power greater then the maidens for that time the required SSB-Goku to just barely beat them. Also as I said before around this time period Toei was a WRECK in powerscalling characters properly, they seem to be involve with Base Saiyan like a plague and kept them like that way to much, so it is hard to properly scale Warriors levels during these episode.

Also their is No-Way to Ignore Episodes 102-103 with what Ribrianne did in those episodes, Heck her Fight with SSJ-Vegeta is in the Opening. Those episodes between 98-106 felt more tightly written even the weaker episodes and more with what felt like Toei was getting at with how they wanted to power-scale warriors. So indeed, their is not a way to Discount the Showings of Ribrianne's levels in 102-103 and Honestly its not much of a big deal either. She is still NO-WHERE Close to Vegeta's Full Power even before he went Royal Blue or 17's power, this is mainly about the fact that she brought her own level of power, impressive, but sadly not yet on their scale that means she was not a threat to them in the least but still showed some impressive levels.

[Bullza]

I suppose that is your rank, no?

Oh, no it wasn't. I'm not sure what my rank would be.

We know Vegito is above Zamasu. Goku is above Kefla. Vegeta is above Toppo.

I'd say that (and mainly because of the manga) Zamasu wasn't supposed to be above a God of Destruction but Vegito probably was.meaning that Vegeta and Toppo are also above Zamasu.

Kefla shouldn't​ be nearly as strong as Vegito either. So you'd think Ultra Instinct Goku at least in Episode 110 wouldn't be as strong as Vegito, Vegeta or Toppo either.

But it seems wrong to have Goku below Vegeta. Goku also matched Jiren who should be above Zamasu and Kefla was above that.

Vegito ~ Vegeta
Toppo
Goku
Kefla
Zamasu

Something like that, I dunno. Seems wrong to have Kefla naive Zamasu too.

[brett wheeler]

so from the spiolers I'm giong to rank everybody as best I can see it.

above hakiashin-jiren/mastered UI goku
hakiashin tier-toppo GoD/vegito blue/undying will ussb vegeta
close to hakiashin tier-suppressed jiren ( hint of true power )
above ssb tier-merged zamasu/ssj2 kefla ( fp rage attack )/UI goku ( omen both times )/ussb vegeta ( fp )/supressed jiren
ssbkk*20 tier-aniraza/goku ssbkk*20/initial ussb vegeta/ssj2 kefla initial
ssbkk*10 tier-jiren( suppressed vs vegeta )/ssj kefla/vegeta ssb ( reading jirens movements not in pure power tho )/tired Ussb vegeta
ssbkk tier-vegeta ssb/toppo fp/hit ( time skip ability )
ssb tier-dyspo ( super speed mode )/17/ult gohan/golden frieza/ssb goku/ssb vegeta/toppo ( initial )/giant u3 robot/ect..
ssg tier-kefla/ssg goku/ssg vegeta/ect...

thats as far as I'm giong, I added ect.. to the ssb and ssg tiers at the end in case I missed any that you felt fell there ( as those tiers are really flexible in this arc ), also I rearranged a couple characters since I thought about it more so here ya go.

[dragon boss z]

Current Goku and Vegeta are far above Vegetto since he wasn't that much stronger than MZ who is in turn inferior to a heavily suppressed Jiren.

You are taking some of the lines too literally. 90% of the dialogue is made up by the Toei writers working in the episode. All we are supposed to take from that is Jiren>everyone prior. They don't intend for use to try and scale off base Jiren to make Goku and Vegeta being above Vegito. At best Vegeta's new form after his boost against Toppo is black saga Vegito level.

[ZombieVito]

I suppose that is your rank, no?

Oh, no it wasn't. I'm not sure what my rank would be.

We know Vegito is above Zamasu. Goku is above Kefla. Vegeta is above Toppo.

I'd say that (and mainly because of the manga) Zamasu wasn't supposed to be above a God of Destruction but Vegito probably was.meaning that Vegeta and Toppo are also above Zamasu.

Kefla shouldn't​ be nearly as strong as Vegito either. So you'd think Ultra Instinct Goku at least in Episode 110 wouldn't be as strong as Vegito, Vegeta or Toppo either.

But it seems wrong to have Goku below Vegeta. Goku also matched Jiren who should be above Zamasu and Kefla was above that.

Vegito ~ Vegeta
Toppo
Goku
Kefla
Zamasu

Something like that, I dunno. Seems wrong to have Kefla naive Zamasu too.

Answer me this.

If Vegeta is above Toppo then why did he use a suicide attack to beat him?

[Kenneth La Torre]

I suppose that is your rank, no?

Oh, no it wasn't. I'm not sure what my rank would be.

We know Vegito is above Zamasu. Goku is above Kefla. Vegeta is above Toppo.

I'd say that (and mainly because of the manga) Zamasu wasn't supposed to be above a God of Destruction but Vegito probably was.meaning that Vegeta and Toppo are also above Zamasu.

Kefla shouldn't​ be nearly as strong as Vegito either. So you'd think Ultra Instinct Goku at least in Episode 110 wouldn't be as strong as Vegito, Vegeta or Toppo either.

But it seems wrong to have Goku below Vegeta. Goku also matched Jiren who should be above Zamasu and Kefla was above that.

Vegito ~ Vegeta
Toppo
Goku
Kefla
Zamasu

Something like that, I dunno. Seems wrong to have Kefla naive Zamasu too.

Answer me this.

If Vegeta is above Toppo then why did he use a suicide attack to beat him?

Because writers. And before the attack, toppo couldn’t do anything to vegeta, after vegeta got an emotional power up. (Yeah I’m calling it that)