Is it true that Toriyama hated working on Dragonball?

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:23 pm

Bomber Greek wrote:He did try to kill him, but it was unsuccessful.

That whole part was bullshit. Freeza was cut in half, only had the power Goku gave him, got blasted with his own attack combined with a powerful blast from Goku, and then has the planet blow up underneath him, and yet somehow survived.

It's almost as stupid as Goku, who we saw screaming as the planet erupted below him, suddenly having enough time to fly back to the spaceships and grab one.

This was a cosmic menace that came out of nowhere, and could kick the piss outta the super saiyans. That was where the drama laid.

What drama? There were ways to crush Buu from the time he was introduced, and as soon as one was dropped (usually in the most fucking idiotic way possible), another was introduced.

Goku: Super Saiyan 3 will destroy Buu! But... I am already in my pajamas. Use the Fusion Dance instead!

-Meanwhile-
Supreme Kai: This sword will kill Buu! It will not break, it will not-
Gohan: It broke.
Elder Kai: It's cool, my potential-unlocking powers will destroy Buu!
Gohan: Sweet.
-

Gotenks: Our Fusion will destroy Buu, but we're retards. Hurrrrr- *zzzt*
Goten & Trunks: Oh shit.

Gohan: I can destroy Buu!
Goten & Trunks: But we're retards! Hurrr- *absorbed*
Gohan: Oh shit.

Eldar Kai: Don't worry, these magic earrings I suddenly have will destroy Buu!
Goku: Kickass.

Goku: Gohan, catch!
Gohan: Hurrrr- *miss, absorbed*
Goku: Goddammit.

Goku: Vegeta, fuse with me!
Vegeta: 'kay.
Vegetto: I will destroy Buu! ... after I needlessly prolong the fight and get myself absorbed so I can rescue the fucktards and does anyone else feel odd- *zzzt*
Goku & Vegeta: Fuck.

Goku: I guess I should get around to that whole "Super Saiyan 3" thing now. *ffrt* Dammit.

Vegeta: Let's try the Spirit Bomb instead of bringing the 'tards here, even though they're stronger than Buu now.
Goku: 'kay. Hey guys, gimme your energy!
Humans: No.
Goku: Well, fuck.
Vegeta: Aight, I'm sick of being in this universe with you fuckheads, I'm gonna go fight Buu in base so he can kill me and erase me from existance.
Goku: Wait, Spirit Bomb's working now! *blows up Buu*
Vegeta: Fuck you, Kakarot.

Victator Supreme · Post by **Victator Supreme** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:34 pm

Yeah so?

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:58 pm

Rocketman, that would SO be my new signature, but... ya know.

Big Momma · Post by **Big Momma** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:58 pm

Rocketman wrote: Goku: Super Saiyan 3 will destroy Buu! But... I am already in my pajamas. Use the Fusion Dance instead!

-Meanwhile-
Supreme Kai: This sword will kill Buu! It will not break, it will not-
Gohan: It broke.
Elder Kai: It's cool, my potential-unlocking powers will destroy Buu!
Gohan: Sweet.
-

Gotenks: Our Fusion will destroy Buu, but we're retards. Hurrrrr- *zzzt*
Goten & Trunks: Oh shit.

Gohan: I can destroy Buu!
Goten & Trunks: But we're retards! Hurrr- *absorbed*
Gohan: Oh shit.

Eldar Kai: Don't worry, these magic earrings I suddenly have will destroy Buu!
Goku: Kickass.

Goku: Gohan, catch!
Gohan: Hurrrr- *miss, absorbed*
Goku: Goddammit.

Goku: Vegeta, fuse with me!
Vegeta: 'kay.
Vegetto: I will destroy Buu! ... after I needlessly prolong the fight and get myself absorbed so I can rescue the fucktards and does anyone else feel odd- *zzzt*
Goku & Vegeta: Fuck.

Goku: I guess I should get around to that whole "Super Saiyan 3" thing now. *ffrt* Dammit.

Vegeta: Let's try the Spirit Bomb instead of bringing the 'tards here, even though they're stronger than Buu now.
Goku: 'kay. Hey guys, gimme your energy!
Humans: No.
Goku: Well, fuck.
Vegeta: Aight, I'm sick of being in this universe with you fuckheads, I'm gonna go fight Buu in base so he can kill me and erase me from existance.
Goku: Wait, Spirit Bomb's working now! *blows up Buu*
Vegeta: Fuck you, Kakarot.

That was, without a doubt, the best summary I've ever read.

If this forum had rep, I'd give you all mine.

Victator Supreme · Post by **Victator Supreme** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:23 pm

I can't belive that goofy shit is getting praised. Basically it should have said "Any attempt to advance the plot is bad."

1. I could take any Dragonball storyline and do that.

2. I could take any comic/movie/book/tv show ever made and do that.

Snail · Post by **Snail** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:02 pm

Victator Supreme wrote: 2. I could take any comic/movie/book/ tv show ever made and do that.

True. It is quite amusing though

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:16 pm

Oh come on, it was damn funny! Plus we expect that sort of thing from Rocketman.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:55 pm

Victator Supreme wrote:I can't belive that goofy shit is getting praised. Basically it should have said "Any attempt to advance the plot is bad."

1. I could take any Dragonball storyline and do that.

Nope! See, what makes the Buu Saga different is none of the ways they had to kill Buu were thwarted by a bad guy. The good guys keep being stupid and ruining their own plans. They aren't even outmatched by Buu, they just keep. Being. Stupid.

The only thing that approaches the Buu Saga retardation is Vegeta and Krillin's simultaneous dumbassery with Imperfect Cell and #18.

Maybe they've all just taken too many hits to the head by the Buu Saga.

testing223 · Post by **testing223** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:28 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Victator Supreme wrote:I can't belive that goofy shit is getting praised. Basically it should have said "Any attempt to advance the plot is bad."

1. I could take any Dragonball storyline and do that.
Nope! See, what makes the Buu Saga different is none of the ways they had to kill Buu were thwarted by a bad guy. The good guys keep being stupid and ruining their own plans. They aren't even outmatched by Buu, they just keep. Being. Stupid.

The only thing that approaches the Buu Saga retardation is Vegeta and Krillin's simultaneous dumbassery with Imperfect Cell and #18.

Maybe they've all just taken too many hits to the head by the Buu Saga.

Yeah, Toriyama made the characters REALLY make some stupid mistakes. Even OUTSIDE of the critical moments.

I.e.: Gohan, super-martial artist of the universe can't catch a thrown earring.

It's almost as if the entire saga was full of deliberate anti-climaxes. Take the Budokai, Spopopich's fight with Videl was BRUTAL. In fact, probably the most brutal in the saga. And he's some sort of grey-skinned Zombie, since he can get his neck snapped and still live, and they don't sense the proper type of energy from him.

That was a cool setup.

So what happens? Gohan gets REALLY really mad and pops SS2, they chase him down...and he goes pop from another villain.

Talk about a letdown of all that buildup.

Then there's the big buildup to Vegeta/Goku's rematch. And what happens? It's a bunch of badly-drawn panels, no flow like the original Earth fight, and it just ends with Goku saying "Wait stop!"

Then there's the buildup to this great terrible Buu, who turns out to be a baby in a diaper who turns people to sweets. Wow.

I mean, it's almost as if Toriyama was subtlety striking back at the editors and deliberately writing badly. Maybe that was it, who knows.

Adamant · Post by **Adamant** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:07 pm

testing223 wrote:Then there's the buildup to this great terrible Buu, who turns out to be a baby in a diaper who turns people to sweets. Wow.

But that was the point. It's funny.

Contra Deus · Post by **Contra Deus** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:32 am

Rocketman's post brilliantly illustrated what was so great about the Buu Saga: the ability to poke fun at it.

Victator Supreme · Post by **Victator Supreme** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:58 am

Rocketman wrote:
Victator Supreme wrote:I can't belive that goofy shit is getting praised. Basically it should have said "Any attempt to advance the plot is bad."

1. I could take any Dragonball storyline and do that.
Nope! See, what makes the Buu Saga different is none of the ways they had to kill Buu were thwarted by a bad guy. The good guys keep being stupid and ruining their own plans. They aren't even outmatched by Buu, they just keep. Being. Stupid.

The only thing that approaches the Buu Saga retardation is Vegeta and Krillin's simultaneous dumbassery with Imperfect Cell and #18.

Maybe they've all just taken too many hits to the head by the Buu Saga.

Vegeta was/is an arrogant ass. It was completely in character to do what he did. Krillian was having a moral crisis. The good guys fuck up sometimes.

Goku had a good reason for not killing Buu when he did. He was dead and the Earth would need new protectors. Its not coincidental he took up the fight fully when he was brought back by Old Kai. Or that the final attack that killed Buu, needed every person on the planet to help.

Gotenks could not finish Buu because the fusion makes the person extremely arrogant. Not to mention its two eight year olds.

Vegetto did not finish him because he did not want to kill his sons and Piccolo.

Then there's the buildup to this great terrible Buu, who turns out to be a baby in a diaper who turns people to sweets. Wow.

Whoooosh!!!!!

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:02 am

Well, that settles it: let's have a "rewrite-the-buu-saga" contest!
... No? Ok, then...

Yeah, Gotenks was made up of a couple of kids who didn't know the first thing about protecting the universe. Vegetto was trying to be heroic instead of just badass, and Gohan... umm... Gohan doesn't really have an excuse. Except maybe being a little confused by his dad showing up and throwing him an earring. But...
(Hmm, if Gohan and Goku had fused, and the resulting fusion was strong enough to manhandle Buu and smart enough to get himself absorbed to save everyoe, would that mean that "zomg super powerful!" Gohan would be available to fight if Kid Buu were involved?)

Victator Supreme · Post by **Victator Supreme** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:11 am

Gohan was just caught off guard after being in a brutal fight.

Also if they fused, Gohan would be married to his mom.

Tsukento · Post by **Tsukento** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:26 am

Hey Rocketman, you forgot something.

Gotenks: Our Fusion will destroy Boo, but we're out of energy. Hurrrr.
Piccolo: OSHI- *boom* There. No one can get out now.
Gotenks: Piccolo, you asshole, we were kidding!
Piccolo: ...Oh

Boo: ROAR~! *woosh*
Gotens & Piccolo: ...Oh for crying out loud!

Two fuck ups in one go! Gotenks messes around, Piccolo blows up the door. Not only does Gotenks not finish the job due to screwing around, Piccolo blowing up the door resulted in Boo having a fit and being able to escape and turn everyone outside into sweets while they were defenseless.

Victator Supreme · Post by **Victator Supreme** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:33 am

How could he of known Buu could cut a hole thru dimensions?

DemonKingPiccolo · Post by **DemonKingPiccolo** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:27 am

Toriyama didn't like working on Dragon Ball because it was too demanding and took up too much of his time. And probably the main reason why he didn't sell the series because he didn't want people to screw it up, he wanted it to be his own work. Toei didn't buy the series, he simply gave them temporary rights to make one (which resulted in the disgusting series GT).

It's pretty obvious to me that Toriyama ran out of ideas by the end of the Freeza saga; I mean seriously, the next villian that he introduced in my opinion was boring and unoriginal in his created universe. The villian was simply a composite of charaters that we already knew. When you're recycling ideas, that's a bad sign: it means that you've run out of ideas. The Cell saga in my opinion was the worst one of the canon series, It didn't have the fundamental elements that the rest of the series had. It was simply about fighting, not mystical adventure like it's predecessor sagas were. The Buu saga seemed like a "recovery saga", the Dragon Balls are reintroduced for a bit, and the mystical adventure aspect of the series is continued into the other world with Kaioshin's planet, Buu's insides, etc.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:13 am

DemonKingPiccolo wrote:probably the main reason why he didn't sell the series because he didn't want people to screw it up, he wanted it to be his own work.

What do you mean "sell his series"? I'm not sure I follow you...

It's pretty obvious to me that Toriyama ran out of ideas by the end of the Freeza saga; I mean seriously, the next villian that he introduced in my opinion was boring and unoriginal in his created universe. The villian was simply a composite of charaters that we already knew. When you're recycling ideas, that's a bad sign: it means that you've run out of ideas.

Still, it had Trunks and time travel, that should count for something...

The Cell saga in my opinion was the worst one of the canon series, It didn't have the fundamental elements that the rest of the series had. It was simply about fighting, not mystical adventure like it's predecessor sagas were.

Even the Freeza arc?

DemonKingPiccolo · Post by **DemonKingPiccolo** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:26 pm

Olivier Hague wrote: What do you mean "sell his series"? I'm not sure I follow you...

"Selling a series" is when an author sells the rights of their series to another person or company. When the author sells their series to some one else, then they no longer have the authority to say that no more series can be made, because they don't own the copyrights of the series anymore. That right lies with whoever bought the rights of the series from the author.

Toriyama never sold the rights of Dragon Ball series, that's why no other series can be made officially unless Toriyama signs a contract giving permission to make another series. An example of this is Toei with Dragon Ball GT, Toei didn't buy the rights of the Dragon Ball series, Toriyama just gave them permission to make another one. If another Dragon Ball series is made without Toriyama's permission, he can sue for copyright infringment, and the people who made the series could get serious fines and jailtime.

And this doesn't only go for series production, this also goes for merchandise like videogames, figurines, shirts, stuff like that. That unnofficial stuff is more widely known as "bootlegs".

Still, it had Trunks and time travel, that should count for something...

True, but "adventuring to the future" was simply the same place, just in a different time period.

Even the Freeza arc?

The reason why they went to Namek in the first place was not to fight Freeza, but find the Dragon Balls. It was an adventure, and the audience got to see a whole new place: Planet Namek.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:32 pm

DemonKingPiccolo wrote:If anything is made without Toriyama's permission, he can sue for copyright infringment.

Er... Well... Yeah? I'm not sure I've ever heard of a mangaka not being able to do that anymore.

The reason why they went to Namek in the first place was not to fight Freeza, but find the Dragon Balls. It was an adventure, and the audience got to see a whole new place: Planet Namek.

It's not like it ever felt like an entire new planet though. Just one new setting for battles. The Cell arc got several of those, if you go there. ^^;