Mike and the bots riff Saban's DBZ dub

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:45 am

PsyLiam wrote:
Alias wrote:It's not just opinion. I hate it when people deem that all moral values are just a matter of viewpoint ("Sure she's 16 and he's her 49 year old teacher, but they were in love! It's just your opinion that it's weird!").
There's a world of difference between laughing at something, and condoning it. Laughing at that bit in DBZ rewrite doesn't mean that you agree with fathers doing naughty things to their daughters.

I have to disagree with your opinion somewhat Liam. No I know laughing at something like that doesn't mean you agree with sexual abuse, but I do think that by laughing at it, you are condoning it in a way. By laughing at it, you are momentarily treating the subject less seriously than it should be.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 9:22 am

I can see both sides. Personally, I think it depends entirely on how it is presented. Just writing "oh, and Piccolo was raping Gohan" isn't funny. But a passage about that could be written in a humorous way. It would be an extremely tricky thing to do, but it is possible.

The reason why I don't find it offensive in DBZ rewrite is because the whole situation is ridiculous to begin with. Characters who barely have two dimensions to begin with are reduced to barely having one in a fairly over the top, outrageous parody. And the actual scene itself is fairly ludicrous and daft. It's not like he's gone into graphic detail.

Or, to approach from another angle: Raditz brutally kills vast numbers of people at the beginning of the parody, mainly for the purposes of humour. Does laughing at that mean you're condoning murder? Raditz is abusing his power and killing others, without sparing a thought for them, their families, or friends. Are you treating that subjet less seriously by laughing at it?

Alias · Post by **Alias** » Sat Jun 05, 2004 3:29 am

PsyLiam wrote:Personally, I think it depends entirely on how it is presented. Just writing "oh, and Piccolo was raping Gohan" isn't funny. But a passage about that could be written in a humorous way. It would be an extremely tricky thing to do, but it is possible.

No, it isn't possible. Piccolo raping Gohan has no humorous merit, regardless of any supposed 'dash of wit.' It's a sick concept and no joke would change that.

Or, to approach from another angle: Raditz brutally kills vast numbers of people at the beginning of the parody, mainly for the purposes of humour. Does laughing at that mean you're condoning murder? Raditz is abusing his power and killing others, without sparing a thought for them, their families, or friends. Are you treating that subjet less seriously by laughing at it?

That's not the same thing. It's not as twisted, cruel, sick, and depraved as incest, rape, and pedophilia all rolled into one. That scene doesn't have the same personal impact as the other. There's shades of gray here, and the CC/GM thing is a far darker shade.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sat Jun 05, 2004 11:03 am

That scene doesn't have the same personal impact as the other.

How can you use personal preference as an argument?

Someone could be just as repulsed, like Liam said, at the thought of murder being made light of.

Personally, I think it depends entirely on how it is presented. Just writing "oh, and Piccolo was raping Gohan" isn't funny. But a passage about that could be written in a humorous way. It would be an extremely tricky thing to do, but it is possible.

It's true. There's a Dana Carvey sketch from Saturday Night Live where he plays an uncle who has "gifts for his nieces hidden somewhere on his body". The sketch was beyond hillarious, but only because such a taboo subject was presented in such a well-acted way.

It's like this season's "Soaking Cork" sketch at a vineyard.
"How many corks do you soak a year?"
"Oh, between 68 and 70."

"Being only 16, do you ever regret that you have to soak so many corks? Don't you ever feel like you're not a regular teenager?"
"Oh no! Ever since I started soaking cork, I've been the most popular girl in school!"

It's all about the delivery.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Sat Jun 05, 2004 9:20 pm

Alias wrote:
PsyLiam wrote:Personally, I think it depends entirely on how it is presented. Just writing "oh, and Piccolo was raping Gohan" isn't funny. But a passage about that could be written in a humorous way. It would be an extremely tricky thing to do, but it is possible.
No, it isn't possible. Piccolo raping Gohan has no humorous merit, regardless of any supposed 'dash of wit.' It's a sick concept and no joke would change that.

But since I -and presumably others - laughed at the Chi Chi scene in DBZ rewrite, and since me - and presumably most of those others - aren't paedophiles, that means that it is possible to make that situation funny, at least for some people.

That's not the same thing. It's not as twisted, cruel, sick, and depraved as incest, rape, and pedophilia all rolled into one. That scene doesn't have the same personal impact as the other. There's shades of gray here, and the CC/GM thing is a far darker shade.

Honestly, I am slightly baffled as to people saying that rape, or paedophilia is worse than murder. Sure, it's a horrible, horrible thing, but it is something it's possible to get over. How many people have ever gotten over being killed?

There was a very funny TV special on over here a couple of years ago, lambasting the media hysteria over paedophiles (where most of the tabloids were full of helpful opinions like "Paedophiles should have their names published in the papers, and then others should go around their house and cripple them. And possibly kill them. Hey, it's not our fault". It got a lot of criticism. It was also funny as hell.

Alias · Post by **Alias** » Mon Jun 07, 2004 5:56 am

Dayspring wrote:How can you use personal preference as an argument?

I'm not referring to personal preference, I'm referring to the personal degradation, fear, humiliation, and shattering effect. There's no personal link between, say, a Saiya-jin and the people he kills. Not just in terms of relation, but in that their deaths don't have the same sadistic cruelty on his part and the same horror and loss of self and dignity for his victims. In the DB-verse, if Pan was to be killed on her search for the Black-Star DBs and arrive in the afterlife, her mind wouldn't be one billionth as torn apart as it would if she had been raped by Goku. It's difficult to describe exactly what I'm trying to get at, but my point is that there's a line. Certain things cross it.

Personally, I think it depends entirely on how it is presented. Just writing "oh, and Piccolo was raping Gohan" isn't funny. But a passage about that could be written in a humorous way. It would be an extremely tricky thing to do, but it is possible.

I very strongly disagree. That's like saying that no matter how horrible something is, as long as the supposed joke is 'witty,' then it's okay. The joke being 'lame' isn't what makes it sick and twisted. A little boy getting raped by his trusted mentor being depicted as funny is what's sick. Where's the joke? "Ha! The kid doesn't want to but he's being forced! Look at him cry!" or "Hehe, Gohan doesn't know what Piccolo's really doing!"

I fail to see the humor.

It's true. There's a Dana Carvey sketch from Saturday Night Live where he plays an uncle who has "gifts for his nieces hidden somewhere on his body". The sketch was beyond hillarious, but only because such a taboo subject was presented in such a well-acted way.

Same answer as above.

It's all about the delivery.

Depending on the subject. Delivery may matter with something like death (Freeza skipping through the halls of his ship and frying soldiers to the tune of Singin' in the Rain isn't on the same level as decribing him peeling the skin from Gohan's face) but not with something like rape, incest, and pedophilia.

Psyliam wrote:Honestly, I am slightly baffled as to people saying that rape, or paedophilia is worse than murder. Sure, it's a horrible, horrible thing, but it is something it's possible to get over. How many people have ever gotten over being killed?

In real life, death of obviously worse. But this is fantasy, and death isn't the same thing. Depending on the work, it can be as powerful as reality, or it can be part of a goofy parody. It can be something it normally isn't. Raditz blasting people isn't the same as Chichi being raped by her father. I don't understand how it's possible that you can't see the difference.

There was a very funny TV special on over here a couple of years ago, lambasting the media hysteria over paedophiles (where most of the tabloids were full of helpful opinions like "Paedophiles should have their names published in the papers, and then others should go around their house and cripple them. And possibly kill them. Hey, it's not our fault". It got a lot of criticism. It was also funny as hell.

Since I've had teachers and neighbors who turned out to be pedophiles, I'd have to say that crippling them would be too kind.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Mon Jun 07, 2004 5:56 pm

You got issues.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Mon Jun 07, 2004 6:30 pm

Alias wrote:In real life, death of obviously worse. But this is fantasy, and death isn't the same thing. Depending on the work, it can be as powerful as reality, or it can be part of a goofy parody. It can be something it normally isn't. Raditz blasting people isn't the same as Chichi being raped by her father. I don't understand how it's possible that you can't see the difference.

I don't understand how you can say how death becomes more acceptable for humour in a "fantasy" context, but rape becomes less acceptable. Raditz kills a farmer in cold blood (sort of). He blows up a planet. He kills billions. By any reasonable standards of morality, that's far, far worse than a father raping their child.

To actually put it in the context of the series: Loads of people like Vegeta. Despite the fact that he commited genocide on a weekly basis while growing up, despite the fact that even after he "turned good", he still blew up a stand at the world tornament which no doubt killed a good hundred people, people still say "he's a cool character", "he redeems himself", "OMG he's so cute Bulma is a slut!!!", and so on. Are you saying that if instead of killing countless billions (and possibly trillions) with a smile on his face and a spring in his step, he had just raped a small child, he would be irredeemable?

(Is this the most serious and mature conversation we've had here?)

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Mon Jun 07, 2004 9:30 pm

Actually Liam, the funny thing is, I think that that would indeed make him "unredeemable" to people. Knowing how people think, that's my guess anyway.

Alias · Post by **Alias** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 6:54 am

Dayspring wrote:You got issues.

???

Psyliam: Yes, Raditz killing billions is technically far worse, but not worse at the same time. It may sound strange, but it's true from the cultural standpoint/view of most people concerning fantasy. For instance, take just about any recent Disney animated movie. People fall off cliffs, armies perish under avalanches, Lion daddies are trampled to death by Wildebeasts, etc... They're never rated higher than PG. If you were to include rape, incest, or pedophilia, then the rating would shoot up to an PG-13 or R. Heck, Disney wouldn't even touch upon those subjects, much less use them as humor. Death isn't viewed the same way as those things. It's so commonplace in life that its meaning isn't as terrible. Seeing Sylvester lose his nine lives in Loony Tunes isn't the same as the CC/GM scene.

As for Vegeta, though it may sound logically odd, that would make him irredeemable. I don't think Vegeta would have a single (normal) fan if he was raping little kids. Unlike most people, however, I don't think he's an angel who didn't really want to kill all those people while working for Freeza. He's interesting, but definitely not innocent. Concerning the tournament thing, that has partly to do with Babidi. I think it's Kibito who said that becoming a Majin causes a person to do the things they think they wanted to do all along, even though they wouldn't in normal circumstances. While Vegeta wasn't fully influenced or controlled, he clearly wasn't sane.

Oy... -_- These are the most difficult posts I've made here. I know what I'm trying to say, but it seems to be lost in any attempt to word it out. The emotion and logic is there, but not the sentence.

Psyliam wrote:(Is this the most serious and mature conversation we've had here?)

Probably.

B-kun · Post by **B-kun** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:33 am

Heh, maybe that's why this conversation has been mostly "What the hell are you talking about?"

Alias · Post by **Alias** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 3:10 pm

Has it?

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 3:42 pm

I don't think so.

Anyway, Alias, do yout think it's right that Disney (and everyone else) can make movies with death in, but not rape? It is right that we view the first subject as less offensive? Perhaps it's not that we should treat jokes about paedophile the same as death...maybe we should treat jokes about death the same as those about paedophilia: ban them completely.

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 8:11 pm

But death is your friend!

Either way, you can't use that as an example. When some cat loses his nine lives, that's considered okay. But you can't compare it to a man raping a little girl. In a way, you're still right, though. You can't have a cartoon where a cat falls on another little baby kitty at the perfect angle so that it's sexual. You just can't.

Also, most people think Vegeta's an angel? I don't know where that came from.

Alias · Post by **Alias** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:08 am

Psyliam: Yes, I do think Disney can make children's movies with death in them but not rape. If Sidka dies in Brother Bear, while it's a somber part of the story, it's not offensive. Death itself isn't an abhorrent thing, not like rape, incest, and pedophilia. It's a part of life. People die. It can be ridiculed and softened. The others can't. There's no possible way that some kid getting raped can be turned into a joke. It's so deviant and brutal, that there's no humor within.

Zackarotto wrote:Also, most people think Vegeta's an angel? I don't know where that came from.

Well, the angel thing is a bit of an exaggeration... I'm referring to the way a very large percentage of his fans don't think of him as a villain, but rather as an anti-hero. I've read thousands of fanfics, I lurk at forums, and I hop dozens of sites each night. The fanfics rarely depict him, even pre-Nameksei, as a villain. He's always innocent but led astray by Freeza, unwilling but without choice, trying to keep up appearances, not knowing any better but easily swayed by the power of romantic love, etc... In the forums, he's always "badass and an awesome hero, but too cool to be goody-goody about it like Goku." The worst that's usually said about him is that he's a jerk. On his shrines (though, admittedly, those are made by smitten girls), there's hardly ever any mention of his past deeds. The people who really do think he was a villain for most of the series are outnumbered 2 to 1 by those who think he was just an anti-hero (especially with the Cell saga).

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:14 am

Ah, I see. Well, I think he killed all those people on purpose, but as for Majin Vegeta killing those people in the stands? I would say he had settled down, and wouldn't normally choose to kill like that, but wouldn't really mind if he did. Remember, he knew he might be doing evil things when he let himself get taken over.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:14 am

Death itself isn't an abhorrent thing, not like rape, incest, and pedophilia. It's a part of life. People die.

Yes but there's a significant difference between a natural death and murder, suicide or torture. Using your argument it would be ok to rape a person only provided if they die as a result of it.

Saying death is a part of life would mean that everybody's exposed to it because it exists. If that's the case then rape is a part of life too.

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:03 pm

Well, an average cartoon doesn't usually contain murder...

Rape isn't supposed to happen. Death is. Murder isn't, but we don't see that in cartoons very often, so why bring it up?

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:19 pm

Because it does sometimes happen in cartoons. Because Dragon Ball Z is full of it. Because Veteta and Raditz (who are being used as examples) have killed lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of people, without caring in the slightest. Saying "it doesn't happen often" is hardly a productive argument.

You argue that death is natural. I argue that sex is natural. You argue that murder isn't. Murder is "forced death". Rape is "forced sex". Where's the difference?

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:36 pm

Okay, but for that one argument I was referring to American Cartoons. If we talk about anime, murder is a common subject, and so is rape.