I tried to make sense of the complicated and convolluted Dragon Ball Canon

[KBABZ]

Where do Heroes and FighterZ fit ?

Super has a Yamcha baseball episode... which was cut in Kai.

Seriously ?

So ? the main story had huge events happen off screen yet this is the one that breaks everything ? come on, these 2 examples are just scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Could you explain your point? I don't see what's so terrible about my examples.

[ABED]

Yes, because the Bible was written by a number of different authors. The church had to say "this is the truth, and this isn't." The original manga is one work by one man.

Similarly, if your claim about Sherlock Holmes is true, then Doyle estate created the canon after Doyle was dead. It did not exist until that point in time, even if the works that belong to it did. It's the same situation with DB: The works exist. The canon does not.

I don't know who it was that claimed canon, but it sure as hell wasn't the author, nor did it have to be. His stories had a continuity and they were written by one man. Thought it does look like you agree that canon had to be stated by an official source, the question is whether it has to be explicitly stated. In this case, it was to set it apart from subsequent Sherlock Holmes stories not written by Doyle. THere's also a question of whether the plays Doyle wrote were canon.

[sintzu]

Where do Heroes and FighterZ fit ?

Super has a Yamcha baseball episode... which was cut in Kai.

Seriously ?

So ? the main story had huge events happen off screen yet this is the one that breaks everything ? come on, these 2 examples are just scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Could you explain your point? I don't see what's so terrible about my examples.

You know what's wrong with them. If you're using something like Heroes as an example, something that has little to no writing, that's just an arcade game with a collection of characters from random parts of the franchise, then you're disagreeing for the sake of it and will use any excuse, no matter how little sense it makes to justify it.

[KBABZ]

Seriously ?

So ? the main story had huge events happen off screen yet this is the one that breaks everything ? come on, these 2 examples are just scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Could you explain your point? I don't see what's so terrible about my examples.

You know what's wrong with them. If you're using something like Heroes as an example, something that has little to no writing, that's just an arcade game with a collection of characters from random parts of the franchise, then you're disagreeing for the sake of it and will use any excuse, no matter how little sense it makes to justify it.

I thought Heroes had an anime with its own storyline and such?

[sintzu]

I thought Heroes had an anime with its own storyline and such?

No, heroes doesn't have any anime or anything remotly close to a story. you'll have things like dead zone Gohan being in the same 30 second trailer as Ssj4 Goku whcih goes to show how little writing it has. heroes is just a card game.

[KBABZ]

I thought Heroes had an anime with its own storyline and such?

No, heroes doesn't have any anime or anything remotly close to a story. you'll have things like dead zone Gohan being in the same 30 second trailer as Ssj4 Goku whcih goes to show how little writing it has. heroes is just a card game.

Gotcha, heh, NOW I see where you're coming from!

[SuperCyan2]

Heroes has small anime shorts but nothing like a full-on show. If it did, it'd be way better than Super.

[Grimlock]

Have any of Toriyama's stories ever acknowledge anything not written by him ? Did anyone say Kale looked like Broly when she transformed ? did anyone say that u6 Namakian looked like Slug ? Did anyone ask Sorbet why he didn't bring back Cooler ?

Yes. What is your point here?

Toriyama has said time and again that his new stories are written as if the manga was continuing,

No, he said that towards the two latest movies, there's no such claim about Dragon Ball Super. I'm not denying that he might see Universe 6 saga, Future Trunks saga and Universe Survival saga as canonical stories, though. But that does not necessarily mean it's Toei's or Toytaro's versions the one he accepts in his original work.

They're all the same story. Beerus comes to earth to fight the SsjG Goku. That's nothing like saying fusion reborn or Slug's movie happened and fit within the story.

They are all the same stories taking place in different continuities with their own logic and rules and we can't just pretend all of them happened, no, just one continuity is right. Which one? We won't know until an official canon is revealed, until then, what do you expect us to do other than having to choose one?

Heroes has small anime shorts but nothing like a full-on show. If it did, it'd be way better than Super.

Precisely.

[ABED]

The more important question is "Why does it matter?" If you enjoy it, you enjoy it. Is it required to be canon for you to like it?

[sintzu]

Yes. What is your point here?

No, he said that towards the two latest movies, there's no such claim about Dragon Ball Super.

Yes ? what arc in the manga or super have brought up any of z's movies ? my point is if none of his stories mention them then there's no reaosn to assume they happened.

Super's stories follow the last 2 movies'. Does he have to come out every time there's a new story and say "by the way, this story doesn't take anything I haven't written into account". He already said it twice so he doesn't have to every time something new is anounced. Even if he did, you'd probably find a way to disagree with it like you're doing now.

[Vegeta_Sama]

The more important question is "Why does it matter?" If you enjoy it, you enjoy it. Is it required to be canon for you to like it?

It doesn't really. I started this thread because I was bored and wanted to make sense of the different versions of the same story, but I'll always like (almost) everything that has to do with Dragon Ball, canon or non canon, it doesn't matter

[Grimlock]

Yes ? what arc in the manga or super have brought up any of z's movies ?

That "yes" was towards your first question.

my point is if none of his stories mention them then there's no reaosn to assume they happened.

You mean the old thirteen movies? If so, then no. All the previous movies did happen, as confirmed by Akira Toriyama himself that they happened in another dimension. There is no logical reason to think that just because they take place in another dimension they did not happen (this would be "what-if", hypothetical scenarios, a category that the old movies do not fall under). Also, Xenoverse 2 would not be able to use them whatsoever if that logic was right. But it is not the case, Goku Black himself also stated in-universe that the hole he opened up with the scythe might lead to another dimension (which confirms the existence of other dimensions in-universe), so it is entirely possible what Xenoverse 2 did in Future Trunks saga to happen in the main continuity as well.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

A bit off topic, but does anyone else dislike when people multiple quote the same person? I think it ruins the flow of conversation.

[KBABZ]

A bit off topic, but does anyone else dislike when people multiple quote the same person? I think it ruins the flow of conversation.

Not really, it allows a break-down of specific points when required. My quibble is when folks don't put usernames in the quote tags! It's how I keep track on if I've been replied to so I can reply myself in a timely manner!

[Shineman]

I think it might be a whole a lot of easier to defined canon as something like this:

Canon as a collection of accepted works. In the case of Dragon Ball, every form of Dragon Ball—official produced material—is accepted in the Dragon Ball canon. That includes movies, Dragon Ball Heroes, every single officially produced video games, clothing line produced officially by the right-owners, etc. Non-Canon does not (and shouldn't) exist in this example -- because it's redundant (nowadays, it seems that non-canon is often used negatively against something one does not like personally). Whether or not things fit in a timeline has no bearing on their canon status.

As for what fits what, this should be referred as "continuity". A canon can have multiple continuities (i.e Marvel and DC). For Dragon Ball, obviously, there is a "main continuity" which states certain events actually happened, while others are simply cast off in their own continuities. For example, Broly films do not exist in the "main continuity" but exist as their own, respective continuity. It should be noted that contradictions/lack of explanations has no bearings in continuities. Until stated otherwise, it should be treated as part of that said continuity.

With that said, going off of official statements, the main continuity should look this:

• Jaco the Galactic Patrolman [Stated as a Prequel of Dragon Ball]
  Dragon Ball [Manga/Anime/Kai]
  Dragon Ball Super [stated to occurred between the 10 years between Boo Arc and the Last Chapter. The manga was declared as a promotional material for the Anime, but it can count as well.]
  Dragon Ball GT [Sequel to Dragon Ball and stated as a "Grand Side Story" of Dragon Ball]

Anything else falls within their own continuities.

[Vegeta_Sama]

I think it might be a whole a lot of easier to defined canon as something like this:

Canon as a collection of accepted works. In the case of Dragon Ball, every form of Dragon Ball—official produced material—is accepted in the Dragon Ball canon. That includes movies, Dragon Ball Heroes, every single officially produced video games, clothing line produced officially by the right-owners, etc. Non-Canon does not (and shouldn't) exist in this example -- because it's redundant (nowadays, it seems that non-canon is often used negatively against something one does not like personally). Whether or not things fit in a timeline has no bearing on their canon status.

As for what fits what, this should be referred as "continuity". A canon can have multiple continuities (i.e Marvel and DC). For Dragon Ball, obviously, there is a "main continuity" which states certain events actually happened, while others are simply cast off in their own continuities. For example, Broly films do not exist in the "main continuity" but exist as their own, respective continuity. It should be noted that contradictions/lack of explanations has no bearings in continuities. Until stated otherwise, it should be treated as part of that said continuity.

With that said, going off of official statements, the main continuity should look this:

• Jaco the Galactic Patrolman [Stated as a Prequel of Dragon Ball]
  Dragon Ball [Manga/Anime/Kai]
  Dragon Ball Super [stated to occurred between the 10 years between Boo Arc and the Last Chapter. The manga was declared as a promotional material for the Anime, but it can count as well.]
  Dragon Ball GT [Sequel to Dragon Ball and stated as a "Grand Side Story" of Dragon Ball]

Anything else falls within their own continuities.

I agree with everything you say exept one thing: there's no way that DBGT is in the same continuity as the other stories. Super made it impossible. GT is non canon, and I'm not using the term in a negative way, there's quite a lot of GT that I enjoyed, but unless Super ends with a huge memory wipe or something I don't see how it would fit into continuity

[ekrolo2]

Dragon Ball is just a bunch of different continuities some of them directly from Toriyama, others completely devoid of his input.

You can't really just chalk it up to "Anything Toriyama's written is 100% canon!" when Toriyama's contributed directly to several Z filler things like the backstory with the Tsufurians that he acknowledged as being a thing but never brought that up in the manga or how he wrote the vast majority, if not all, of Dragon Ball Online or how he wrote BoG & F as movies while handing out bullet points for their remakes to Toei and Toyotaro to adapt then continue from.

[Dorexx]

All stories from all media are equally valid and exist together in multiple timelines, which aren't and shouldn't be separated by type of media (manga "canon", anime "canon" etc.) or author (Toriyama "canon", Toei "canon" etc.) The only valid criteria is what can fit in logically and chronologically, because the same story can be told through different means/media and can have multiple authors.

The main timeline (which is not an in-universe description, because in-universe the "main" timeline is just another timeline among many/infinite; "main timeline" is an out-of-universe description referring to the timeline the series focuses on the most, or at a given time) - consists of mostly everything happening in the manga and anime (including anime filler, because it fits), as well as video game exclusive stories and information that fit from them and any other type of media.

An alternate timeline/reality/universe/continuity/(insert word meaning the same thing here) is established every time an existing event can't fit in the main timeline either logically, chronologically or both, so the first official alternate timeline seen is actually in the very first DB film (Legend of Shenlong/Curse of the Blood Rubies) where instead of going on their "main" timeline adventures, Goku and Bulma go to some kingdom ruled by a monster and end up doing something different. Other alternate timelines: Future Trunks' timeline(s), most other films' timelines, many video game exclusive "what-ifs", DBGT (only because right now the focus is on DB Super), etc.

The time rings of Kaioshin said to represent existing timelines are probably only meant to represent ones created unnaturally/illegally by time-travel, not naturally occurring ones which are most likely infinite in number.

So as simple as it can be: if it fits it's in the main timeline, if it doesn't it's in another, but everything happens.

[Avenant]

If I recall correctly, the Future Trunks special chapter in the Manga is what the "History of Trunks" film was adapted from, which makes the Future Trunks story-arc canon with the Manga, since it was actually IN the manga, right?

[KBABZ]

If I recall correctly, the Future Trunks special chapter in the Manga is what the "History of Trunks" film was adapted from, which makes the Future Trunks story-arc canon with the Manga, since it was actually IN the manga, right?

For me it doesn't quite work like that. As DB- showed, the anime and manga can tackle the same subject matter and have very different results. Even History of Trunks does this in regards to when Trunks goes Super Saiyan, so (annoyingly) it isn't so cut and dry.