Vegeta Is Not A Super Saiyan

[Kikoha Hater]

A Full Power Super Saiyan that is: or is he? Bascially I wondering if Vegeta ever mastered that form, because he appeared to be a Full Power Super Saiyan in the late Buu saga in the kaioshin realm (in episode right before Super Saiyan 2 Goku battled against Kid Buu).

[Kaboom]

The way I've come to understand it is that becoming a 'FPSSj' is kind of a prerequisite for SSj2. Like you can't move on to the next level until you've truly mastered and become accustomed to the one previous. The "Ultra" SSj stages are what happens when you try to tap into that power before doing so; the form's flaws come from trying to access power that your body really isn't ready for.

So if Vegeta was an SSj2 by the Buu saga, (or at least capable of becoming one, if you're one of those who somehow think he only reached it from being Majin-ized), then he'd have to have been a FPSSj.

Plus, before and during the Cell Games, Vegeta got quite a good look at what Goku and Gohan could do after their FPSSj training. He's not stupid; so I see no reason why he wouldn't have gone for the same thing.

[I like DB(Z) (...)]

By "full power" do you mean like Gohan and Goku did in the Cell saga? If so then there are a few ways to go about this:

He didn't need to- By the time he showed us SSJ, he more-or-less could control it without it having too much stress on the body, so that is basically the reason for FP.

He did, but with SSJ2- when he went Majin, you could say he went FP SSJ2.

[SSJmole]

(or at least capable of becoming one, if you're one of those who somehow think he only reached it from being Majin-ized).

That's always what I thought , that Majin transformation caused the Ssj transformatio.

[Kaboom]

(or at least capable of becoming one, if you're one of those who somehow think he only reached it from being Majin-ized).

That's always what I thought , that Majin transformation caused the Ssj transformatio.

Yeah, but even with the Majin power, if he'd only just then made the transformation, I personally really doubt he'd be able to stack up to SSj2 Goku like he did, who'd had and been training with the stage for several years by that point.

[SSJmole]

(or at least capable of becoming one, if you're one of those who somehow think he only reached it from being Majin-ized).

That's always what I thought , that Majin transformation caused the Ssj transformatio.

Yeah, but even with the Majin power, if he'd only just then made the transformation, I personally really doubt he'd be able to stack up to SSj2 Goku like he did, who'd had and been training with the stage for several years by that point.

But didn't he say something like "that's why i did it , so i can get the power gohan had when he beat cell" meaning SSJ2 as until that moment he had not been shown with the SSJ lightning around him.


He stood up to Goku because the Majin transformation made him so strong , Goku held back and It was Vegeta who was a skilled fighter before.



I maybe wrong on the whole thing , I just assumed He went Majin to become SSJ2

[Dark Vegeta-Sama]

But didn't he say something like "that's why i did it , so i can get the power gohan had when he beat cell" meaning SSJ2 as until that moment he had not been shown with the SSJ lightning around him.

No, he made a comment that "at least you [Goku] are stronger than Gohan was against Cell" after Goku powered up to full SSJ2 power in front of him for the first time, right before they started fighting.

And, of course, Vegeta also powered up to about the same level, which surprised Goku.

For the record, I fully support the idea that Vegeta achieved SSJ2 during the 7 years after Cell; what the Majin power did for him was get him to reach Goku's level of SSJ2, which was more advanced due to his training in the afterlife.

Think of it this way, SSJ Goku in the Cell Saga is a lot stronger than SSJ Goku in the Freeza Saga; there are various plateaus that can be reached under the umbrella of a single form without actually surpassing it and reaching another form entirely. Goku may have gone as far as one can possibly go in the SSJ2 form while in the afterlife (which would make sense because he was also able to achive SSJ3) and Vegeta, while having reached SSJ2 at the same time, might have simply not reached the full potential of the form yet, and so he went for the Majin powerup to "speed up the process" so to speak.

A lot of it also had to do with Vegeta's utter desperation to fight Goku, since as things stood at the time, Goku's one day on earth in the early Buu Saga would be Vegeta's last chance to fight him. So, he couldn't train anymore before Goku returns to the afterlife, and realizing that Goku's mastery of SSJ2 was slightly superior to his own mastery of SSJ2, Vegeta opted for Babidi's magic to make the difference in their power disappear.

[Suupaa Gohan 2]

Plus, before and during the Cell Games, Vegeta got quite a good look at what Goku and Gohan could do after their FPSSj training. He's not stupid; so I see no reason why he wouldn't have gone for the same thing.

I'm inclined to agree. I'd say he learned his lesson after his experience with the Dai Ni Dankai and Dai San Dankai forms, as well as observing Gokou and Gohan during the Cell Games, that he'd be able to train himself enough to reach this stage. I mean, seven years DO pass, and all, and I'm sure even with Gokou gone he'd no way in Hell want Kakarotto's son surpassing him in power (he kinda gets pissed about that before he attacks Cell after Trunks is killed, and all that), so no doubt he'd try to reach SSJ2. Vegeta's no dummy, and if after so long he couldn't magically attain SSJ2 on its own, he probably realized he first needed to master the 'controlled' SSJ form, got that down, and was able to move to the next level.

Had it happened instantly or something I'd say it was ridiculous he got to level 2, but considering seven years passed, I'd say there's no reason he couldn't do this. Plus, it makes a Hell of a lot more sense than children like Goten and Trunks who never experienced the emotional trauma originally needed to become SSJ attaining level 1 if you ask me...ah, inconsistancy.

[Dark Vegeta-Sama]

Plus, before and during the Cell Games, Vegeta got quite a good look at what Goku and Gohan could do after their FPSSj training. He's not stupid; so I see no reason why he wouldn't have gone for the same thing.

I'm inclined to agree. I'd say he learned his lesson after his experience with the Dai Ni Dankai and Dai San Dankai forms, as well as observing Gokou and Gohan during the Cell Games, that he'd be able to train himself enough to reach this stage. I mean, seven years DO pass, and all, and I'm sure even with Gokou gone he'd no way in Hell want Kakarotto's son surpassing him in power (he kinda gets pissed about that before he attacks Cell after Trunks is killed, and all that), so no doubt he'd try to reach SSJ2. Vegeta's no dummy, and if after so long he couldn't magically attain SSJ2 on its own, he probably realized he first needed to master the 'controlled' SSJ form, got that down, and was able to move to the next level.

Had it happened instantly or something I'd say it was ridiculous he got to level 2, but considering seven years passed, I'd say there's no reason he couldn't do this. Plus, it makes a Hell of a lot more sense than children like Goten and Trunks who never experienced the emotional trauma originally needed to become SSJ attaining level 1 if you ask me...ah, inconsistancy.

There's also Vegeta's numerous comments early on in the Buu Saga about how he is now the strongest warrior around, and gives Gohan a lot of shit for having lost a significant amount of power in the 7 years since he fought Cell. Vegeta also makes it pretty clear that he could have beaten Dabura with ease, and while I know there's no way of verifying that for sure, I do believe it was true nonethess. After allowing his arrogrance to get the best of him and allowing Cell to achieve his perfect form, no way would Vegeta make that type of mistake again with any other enemy, so by the Buu Saga, when he says he can beat an enemy, he definitely can.

I know that Vegeta is naturally cocky and a big talker, but he isn't an idiot. If he still hadn't achieved SSJ2 by the beginning of the Buu Saga, he wouldn't have made such comments about how powerful he is by that point and how much of a "weakling" Gohan has become.

[Conan the SSJ]

I know that Vegeta is naturally cocky and a big talker, but he isn't an idiot. If he still hadn't achieved SSJ2 by the beginning of the Buu Saga, he wouldn't have made such comments about how powerful he is by that point and how much of a "weakling" Gohan has become.

Of course, he could've just said those things to impress Babidi, since he'd already made up his mind to let himself fall under the spell after Goku killed Yakon.

[SSJmole]

I saw it like this , Again most likely wrong , I thought SSJ2 was reached through extreme rage.

Gohan = Cell saga was angered then turned

Goku = I think as he watching from the afterlife. So when cell was about to kill gohan I think he might have got angry enough to transform. Or maybe another time was angered enough to to it.

Vegeta on the hand. Didn't have the anger until he was Majin then it made him angry at everything even himself to the point of turning SSJ2



SSJ3 is the one when you master SSJ states completely and are 100% happy with who you are. I base this all on :

*Cell games with Gohan going SSJ2
*Majin transformation
*Gotenks went SSJ and SSJ3 but no SSJ2 - It might be as he was never angered enough to reach SSJ2 but the truks and gohan mixing perfectly made him happy with who is
*Vegeta never goes SSJ3 , I think this because he always has the eternal conflict with his darkside and light side
*If SSJ 3 was pure power then surly Vegetto would have reached it right?


It stands to reason that the first 2 SSJ stages = anger (except if parents are one like trunks and goten)then the last stage = Balance with in.

[Dark Vegeta-Sama]

SSJ3 is the one when you master SSJ states completely and are 100% happy with who you are. I base this all on :

*Vegeta never goes SSJ3 , I think this because he always has the eternal conflict with his darkside and light side
*If SSJ 3 was pure power then surly Vegetto would have reached it right?

We don't know that Vegeta never achieves SSJ3 as far as the manga is concerned. For all we know, he could've gone SSJ3 during the 10 years after Buu, and could've shown it off at the 28th Budokai if he had the chance to fight Goku.

I know that Vegeta can't go SSJ3 in DBGT, but I don't consider that series canon.

[FindKenshi]

I believe Vegeta could go Super Saiyan 2 before Babidi cursed him, for several reasons. Reason number one, Vegeta was confident he would win the tournament, but he knew that Gohan could go SSJ2 (this was before he was told they shouldn't go Super Saiyan). Reason number two, Vegeta showed no great shock when he saw Goku break the Super Saiyan barrier to kill Yakon, it seemed to only be confirming something he already suspected. Reason three, Vegeta regarded Dabura with complete nonchalance, and said that he was garbage; however Dabura is a Super Saiyan 2-level opponent. Reason four, Vegeta gave no great speech or anything about reaching a new form, he simply transformed and said he would kill Goku. If this was something he was doing for the fist time ever, don't you think he'd be a little more excited about it?

[Kikoha Hater]

FindKenshi I looked at your "Ultimate Super Saiyan Guide", do you think Vegeta had mastered the Full Power Super Saiyan form or even appeared in that calm Super Saiyan state.

[Terra-jin]

I believe Vegeta could go Super Saiyan 2 before Babidi cursed him, for several reasons. Reason number one, Vegeta was confident he would win the tournament, but he knew that Gohan could go SSJ2 (this was before he was told they shouldn't go Super Saiyan). Reason number two, Vegeta showed no great shock when he saw Goku break the Super Saiyan barrier to kill Yakon, it seemed to only be confirming something he already suspected. Reason three, Vegeta regarded Dabura with complete nonchalance, and said that he was garbage; however Dabura is a Super Saiyan 2-level opponent. Reason four, Vegeta gave no great speech or anything about reaching a new form, he simply transformed and said he would kill Goku. If this was something he was doing for the fist time ever, don't you think he'd be a little more excited about it?

No great speech? Have you even seen that episode?

For the rest I agree. The evidence you presented is enough to end this age-old debate, I think.
The only thing that doesn't fit in here is Vegeta's comment that he would never fight again after the Cell Games ended. He considered himself totally beaten by Goku, now that even his son surpassed him. His one goal in life was to surpass Goku, and ever since he died Vegeta lost that goal.
I reckon that Vegeta went through some kind of depression (I know, it doesn't sound like him at all) and that he picked up his training afterwards. He never seemed to feel such rivalry against Gohan, though. He apologized to Gohan after being struck by Cell, advised him to keep up his training and regretted his (apparent) death at the hands of Majin Buu. When Goku reappeared, the old Vegeta surfaced again, culminating in Majin Vegeta.

[Conan the SSJ]

The only thing that doesn't fit in here is Vegeta's comment that he would never fight again after the Cell Games ended. He considered himself totally beaten by Goku, now that even his son surpassed him. His one goal in life was to surpass Goku, and ever since he died Vegeta lost that goal.
I reckon that Vegeta went through some kind of depression (I know, it doesn't sound like him at all) and that he picked up his training afterwards.

You can always check out movie 9, it depicts Vegeta still in his slump, although the battle with Bojack brings him out of it. Plus he no doubt becomes aware that it's possible for Goku to return when he teleports back briefly to save Gohan. Of course, with Trunks' facial features design, this movie can only be placed into anime continuity, not manga.

[Godo]

Of course Vegeta had both reached SSJ2 AND Full Power SSJ at the Buu Saga.
It had been 7 years. 7 YEARS!
No chance he couldn't achieve that.
I am currently under the influence of alcohol, but a sober man's thoughts is a drunk man's words.

[Kikoha Hater]

I was specially asking FindKenshi, because in his "Ulitimate Super Saiyan Guide" it doesn't list him as a Full Power Super Saiyan. I could care if he reached Super Saiyan 2 before or during the Buu saga (he achieved it, end of story). I'm concerned if was his Super Saiyan 1appearance in the late Buu saga due him being a Full Power Super Saiyan,choppy animation or just a daizenshuu goof.

[Toriyama Boss]

I always wondered how strong a "Full-power" Super Saiya-jin is compared to Super Saiya-jin. The manga/anime does not state the Difference between Full-power Super Saiya-jin and a common Super Saiya-jin.

[Kaboom]

I always wondered how strong a "Full-power" Super Saiya-jin is compared to Super Saiya-jin. The manga/anime does not state the Difference between Full-power Super Saiya-jin and a common Super Saiya-jin.

Because it's not really a different stage. It's just a state where you've gained complete control over SSj to the point where you can use it like it's your normal self. Plus, training AS an SSj apparently yields much MUCH greater results than normal training.