Why no Genkidama in SSJ?

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:42 pm

Where the foop does it say that the Genkidama can't be used while in SSJ? Other than movie 7 I can't think of any examples, and even then it's said when the "rule" is being broken.

Super Sonic · Post by **Super Sonic** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:51 pm

That's a very good question. Other than movie #7 I haven't heard it mentioned that you can't do it in Super Saiyan mode.

The S · Post by **The S** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:35 pm

I was actually about to ask the very same question

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:56 pm

Don't quote me on this, but I believe Kaio-sama told Goku that the Genki Dama could only be formed if the user had a pure heart (Which really makes you wonder if Cell could really do it.) I don't think other than movie 7 that anyone said Goku couldn't perform the technique as a Super Saiyan, but I think it's pretty much implied by the intence amount of anger necessary to transform.

Alias · Post by **Alias** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:41 am

Goku transformed into SSJ when he was using the Genki Dama against Kid Buu. He didn't collect the energy in that form, but he was able to control and use it.

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:49 am

That was different, he wasn't so much "controling" the Genki Dama, as he was just shoving it downwards with his ki, just like Kid Boo had done.

Alias · Post by **Alias** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:25 am

But he shouldn't have been able to do that. His power wasn't greater than Kid Buu's, so KB's pushing should've sent the thing right back at Goku. I think it was the combination of control and raw ki that allowed Goku to get the upper hand.

Ben Plante · Post by **Ben Plante** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:35 am

Genki Dama = Purity. SS=Not Pure. Anger. One can use the Genki Dama when SS, but to create one, they must be pure, and thuis not a SS. Only after the GD has been finished can the user tranform and do whatever.

Although Cell said that if he really wanted to, he could make a Genki Dama... was that in the manga, or was it a Toei flub? Because if it's based on purity, Cell could most definitely not make one.

TGDweezl · Post by **TGDweezl** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:15 am

I believe it was mentioned during his training that a pure heart would only be able to make it. Krillin was able to toss it against Vegeta and Gohan bounced it back when Vegeta dodged it in the Saiyan Saga. Movie #7 he makes it and then absorbs it to gain the ki he needed to attain SSJ and beat Super #13. As for the once used against Kid Buu, he made it then used SSJ after getting his ki regained via the Namek DBs. The Genki-Dama was strong enough to kill Kid Buu but Goku wasn't strong enough to push it down his throat so he had to go SSJ for that extra little bit of an edge so it wouldn't get pushed back or Buu being able to dodge it..although that makes me wonder since Kid Buu had a form of Goku's "Instant Transmission" so why didn't he use that to move away and then pummel Goku into bits? *ponders*

Ben Plante · Post by **Ben Plante** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 10:49 am

...why didn't he use that to move away and then pummel Goku into bits?

The easy answer would be because Toriyama would've completely snapped if his final villain had lived any longer.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:13 am

Well, he could have given everyone the ultimate ending and provide that DB/Z was over forever. Kid Buu teleports around the SB, comes done from above and kills Goku, then blasts Vegeta, then blows up all of otherworld, then blows up everything else everywhere else.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:28 am

Ben Plante wrote:Genki Dama = Purity. SS=Not Pure. Anger. One can use the Genki Dama when SS, but to create one, they must be pure, and thuis not a SS. Only after the GD has been finished can the user tranform and do whatever.

Although Cell said that if he really wanted to, he could make a Genki Dama... was that in the manga, or was it a Toei flub? Because if it's based on purity, Cell could most definitely not make one.

The only time purity was mentioned was when Gohan was told he was capable of pushing back the GD. This might refer to purity of the spirit, as in not trained in emotions like everybody assumes, which would explain why Goku and Cell can use it, Krillin and Gohan can touch it, and Vegeta can only get blasted by it: At the time it was used, Vegeta was the only one of those 5 people who couldn't control his spiritual force.

Ben Plante · Post by **Ben Plante** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:56 pm

The only time purity was mentioned was when Gohan was told he was capable of pushing back the GD. This might refer to purity of the spirit, as in not trained in emotions like everybody assumes, which would explain why Goku and Cell can use it, Krillin and Gohan can touch it, and Vegeta can only get blasted by it: At the time it was used, Vegeta was the only one of those 5 people who couldn't control his spiritual force.

... Don't spoil my fun.

oponok · Post by **oponok** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:50 pm

But after Vegeta first transformed into a Super Saiyan (publicly, anyway), Krillin said one had to have a "pure heart" to become a Super Saiyan.

Well, I guess no one really made Krillin the authority on Super Saiyans...

...or anything else, for that matter.

TGDweezl · Post by **TGDweezl** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:25 pm

"Pure heart" doesn't denote pure good which is why Vegeta could change. To go SSJ you need like total rage and a pure heart...evil or good or else Vegeta would've never been able to go SSJ if it was a pure good heart.

oponok · Post by **oponok** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 5:17 pm

Yes, but Goku still had a good "pure heart," which is why the argument doesn't make sense that he can't do it as a Super Saiyan. If there was an "evil bomb," I'm sure Vegeta would be ahead of most other people in the line to either create one or deflect it right back.

But who knows...? Perhaps the fact Super Saiyans are born from anger make it a no-no.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 6:56 pm

And in any event, I don't think that Early-Android Vegeta did have a "purely evil" heart. Sure, he wasn't like he became after Goku's death, but he wasn't pure, 100%, nothing-but-evil. I don't think he was even like that when he fought Freeza. He was mainly evil, but not completely.

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:21 pm

I never liked that "Pure Heart to go SSJ" crap. I think it would mean pure good. But, you'd have to look at the Japanese word. I don't know if the word that was said in the Japanese version has a 100% identical translation to "pure", even to the point where it, without evil following directly after, means good. Nobody says "pure good". It's implied.

I usually just ignore that when I see it, and consider the only factor in SSJ transformation to be intense rage. I was also thinking you needed a great amount of strength in the first place, but I doubt Goten and Trunks had fulfilled that requirement.

Besides, I doubt Vegeta was pure evil. Not that I even care by this point.

TGDweezl · Post by **TGDweezl** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:45 pm

I always thought it was total rage, excellent ki and a trigger. But that idea got tossed when I saw Goten and Trunks go SSJ with no effort.

I dunno if Vegeta was PURE evil anytime post-Saiyan Saga. He got his pride wounded losing to Gohan, Krillin, and Goku. I think he was just a bit pissed off during the Frieza/Android Saga. Remember, he turned on himself and got pissed cuz he was weak not because Goku was stronger.

Now that I think about it, Krillin's thoughts were all that PURE were they? I mean he can't ride Kintoun. so, how was he able to handle the GD? *mind spins crazily*

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:04 pm

Maybe Kintoun's idea of pure involves not watching porn, while the with the Genki Dama it's a more serious thing about being a good person and so on? That's what I came up with, anyway.

The other explanation is that Toriyama is insane. This one is good too.