Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by miguelnuva1 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:51 am

Can some post the following numbers they have for these guys

Yardrat Goku
Sick goku
19 pre/post
20 pre/post
Piccolo
Trunks
Healthy Goku
Vegeta

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:35 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote:Can some post the following numbers they have for these guys

Yardrat Goku
Sick goku
19 pre/post
20 pre/post
Piccolo
Trunks
Healthy Goku
Vegeta
Using Namek Goku = 150 as a figure...

SSJ Goku (Yardrat): 240
Stronger than Trunks who one shoted Freeza.

SSJ Goku (Sick): 300
Regarded as more impressive than Yardrat Goku by Tenshinhan.

Android #19: 150
~ Post: 200
Initial 19 is trash, he got his ass pummeled up and down. Post he's stronger, but still trash to Vegeta, who said he wasn't as strong as the rumors (Aka >> Trunks), but didn't consider him utter trash, so he's likely only around Trunks.

Android #20: 180
~ Post: 270
20 started and ended as the stronger of the duo, with Piccolo wondering if either he grew too strong or if #20 was below the expected.

Piccolo: 300
Manhandled #20, but still nothing to Super Saiyans.

SSJ Trunks: 375
SSJ Goku: 390
SSJ Vegeta: 400
Where lumped together by Tenshinhan and Kami, so the gap between then should be rather small.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:45 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote:Can some post the following numbers they have for these guys

Yardrat Goku
Sick goku
19 pre/post
20 pre/post
Piccolo
Trunks
Healthy Goku
Vegeta
Yardrat Goku: 3,600,000
SSJ: 180,000,000

Sick Goku: 3,700,000
SSJ: 185,000,000

Android 19: 90,000,000 (Pre) 135,000,000 (Post)

Android 20: 100,000,000 (Pre) 150,000,000 (Post)

Piccolo (Weighted): 142,000,000
Piccolo: 180,000,000

Future Trunks (Mecha Frieza Arc): 3,400,000
SSJ: 170,000,000

Future Trunks (Android Arc): 4,200,000
SSJ: 210,000,000

Healthy Goku: 4,600,000
SSJ: 230,000,000

Vegeta: 4,800,000
SSJ: 240,000,000

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:34 pm

dragonball0900 wrote: Yardrat Goku: 3,600,000
SSJ: 180,000,000

Sick Goku: 3,700,000
SSJ: 185,000,000

Android 19: 90,000,000 (Pre) 135,000,000 (Post)

Android 20: 100,000,000 (Pre) 150,000,000 (Post)

Piccolo (Weighted): 142,000,000
Piccolo: 180,000,000

Future Trunks (Mecha Frieza Arc): 3,400,000
SSJ: 170,000,000

Future Trunks (Android Arc): 4,200,000
SSJ: 210,000,000

Healthy Goku: 4,600,000
SSJ: 230,000,000

Vegeta: 4,800,000
SSJ: 240,000,000
And how strong you think Future 17 and 18 are?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:52 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: And how strong you think Future 17 and 18 are?
These would be for the androids, both present and future:

Android 17 (Future): 280,000,000
Android 17 (Present): 340,000,000

Android 18 (Future): 240,000,000
Android 18 (Present): 300,000,000

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:42 am

miguelnuva1 wrote:Can some post the following numbers they have for these guys
Yardrat Goku: 180,000,000
Sick goku: 200,000,000 --> 75,000,000
19 pre/post: 56,000,000 --> 190,000,000
20 pre/post: 80,000,000 --> 145,000,000
Piccolo: 180,000,000
Trunks: 220,000,000
Healthy Goku: 240,000,000
Vegeta: 250,000,000

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:11 pm

How would you guys list techniques from strongest to weakest, utility and what have you? Techniques like the Genki Dam probably shouldn't be included or maybe add them with an asterisk due to it's unique properties.

Something I've been wondering ever since Goku upgraded the Kamehameha he's been using, right? Did it surpassed the Dodonpa?

I'm thinking the Neo Kikoho might be the best technique in terms of pure destructive value.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:30 pm

LightBing wrote:How would you guys list techniques from strongest to weakest, utility and what have you? Techniques like the Genki Dam probably shouldn't be included or maybe add them with an asterisk due to it's unique properties.

Something I've been wondering ever since Goku upgraded the Kamehameha he's been using, right? Did it surpassed the Dodonpa?

I'm thinking the Neo Kikoho might be the best technique in terms of pure destructive value.
I don't think it was ever said that the Dodonpa was superior to the Kamehameha in general, just that Kuririn's improvised Kamehameha would've been no match for Chiaotzu's well-practiced Dodonpa. Goku's current Kamehameha would probably put most Dodonpas to shame, all else equal.

The Kikoho and it's improvements are probably the strongest techniques in terms of pure destruction, but I think that attacks like the Kienzan would probably be generally more useful on enemies stronger than yourself, assuming they can't regenerate.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Analytic » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:39 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote:Can some post the following numbers they have for these guys

Yardrat Goku
Sick goku
19 pre/post
20 pre/post
Piccolo
Trunks
Healthy Goku
Vegeta
In millions:

100% Freeza: 240*
SS Goku (Namek): 250*
SS Goku (Yardrat): 500
19 (pre): 400
20 (pre): 500
19 (post): 540
20 (post): 600, SS Goku (Sick): 600
Piccolo: 720
SS Trunks: 900
SS Goku: 960
SS Vegeta: 1,000

*For reference

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:16 pm

LightBing wrote:How would you guys list techniques from strongest to weakest, utility and what have you? Techniques like the Genki Dam probably shouldn't be included or maybe add them with an asterisk due to it's unique properties.

Something I've been wondering ever since Goku upgraded the Kamehameha he's been using, right? Did it surpassed the Dodonpa?

I'm thinking the Neo Kikoho might be the best technique in terms of pure destructive value.

Shin Kikoho definitely has the biggest amplification. Even disregarding Tenshinhan's feat against Cell as pushing force, the Shin Kikoho was his trump card and likely what made him confident against the Artificial Humans. It should at least crush Freeza IMO.

I don't think Special Beam Cannon or Final Flash are that strong, as they only reached such power due to several minutes charging. Their amplification shouldn't be different from Kamehameha IMO.

And the Kamehameha definitely surpassed the Dodonpa. Piccolo called Cell's Kamehameha weak, what implies Goku has been enhancing the Kamehameha since the 23rd Budokai, where he first showed the Super Kamehameha.

Here's a little chart i just made comparing the amp of the attacks:

[spoiler]1.Shin Kikoho
2. Kamikaze techniques
3. CG, Boo Arc Kamehameha/Final Flash
4. Android Arc Kamehameha/Light Grenade
5. Saiyan, Freeza Arc Kamehameha/Garlic Gun
6. Special Beam Cannon
7. 23rd Budokai/BoZ Kamehameha
8. Bakurikimaha/Kikoho
9. Kamehameha/Dodonpa[/spoiler]
I left Big Bang Attack outside because it never looked like anything special, only a cool final attack from Vegeta.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:55 pm

DanielSSJ wrote:
LightBing wrote:How would you guys list techniques from strongest to weakest, utility and what have you? Techniques like the Genki Dam probably shouldn't be included or maybe add them with an asterisk due to it's unique properties.

Something I've been wondering ever since Goku upgraded the Kamehameha he's been using, right? Did it surpassed the Dodonpa?

I'm thinking the Neo Kikoho might be the best technique in terms of pure destructive value.
I don't think it was ever said that the Dodonpa was superior to the Kamehameha in general, just that Kuririn's improvised Kamehameha would've been no match for Chiaotzu's well-practiced Dodonpa. Goku's current Kamehameha would probably put most Dodonpas to shame, all else equal.

The Kikoho and it's improvements are probably the strongest techniques in terms of pure destruction, but I think that attacks like the Kienzan would probably be generally more useful on enemies stronger than yourself, assuming they can't regenerate.
You might be right, I don't remember that exchange clearly. I'll have to check it again, I had this notion and it can't just have formed in my mind out of nowhere.

There's a bunch of utilities attacks, it might be fun to make a list and put them all against each other in various categories.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
LightBing wrote:How would you guys list techniques from strongest to weakest, utility and what have you? Techniques like the Genki Dam probably shouldn't be included or maybe add them with an asterisk due to it's unique properties.

Something I've been wondering ever since Goku upgraded the Kamehameha he's been using, right? Did it surpassed the Dodonpa?

I'm thinking the Neo Kikoho might be the best technique in terms of pure destructive value.

Shin Kikoho definitely has the biggest amplification. Even disregarding Tenshinhan's feat against Cell as pushing force, the Shin Kikoho was his trump card and likely what made him confident against the Artificial Humans. It should at least crush Freeza IMO.

I don't think Special Beam Cannon or Final Flash are that strong, as they only reached such power due to several minutes charging. Their amplification shouldn't be different from Kamehameha IMO.

And the Kamehameha definitely surpassed the Dodonpa. Piccolo called Cell's Kamehameha weak, what implies Goku has been enhancing the Kamehameha since the 23rd Budokai, where he first showed the Super Kamehameha.

Here's a little chart i just made comparing the amp of the attacks:

[spoiler]1.Shin Kikoho
2. Kamikaze techniques
3. CG, Boo Arc Kamehameha/Final Flash
4. Android Arc Kamehameha/Light Grenade
5. Saiyan, Freeza Arc Kamehameha/Garlic Gun
6. Special Beam Cannon
7. 23rd Budokai/BoZ Kamehameha
8. Bakurikimaha/Kikoho
9. Kamehameha/Dodonpa[/spoiler]
I left Big Bang Attack outside because it never looked like anything special, only a cool final attack from Vegeta.
I would make a distinction between Vegeta's and Chiaotzu's suicide attacks, they don't seem to be the same. No idea about specifics but they clearly don't work the same.

Several minutes of charging? For the Makankosappo that's not the case, it was fairly fast. Final Flash I can't remember honestly, don't get fooled by the anime extending these type of scenes.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:29 pm

LightBing wrote: I would make a distinction between Vegeta's and Chiaotzu's suicide attacks, they don't seem to be the same. No idea about specifics but they clearly don't work the same.

Several minutes of charging? For the Makankosappo that's not the case, it was fairly fast. Final Flash I can't remember honestly, don't get fooled by the anime extending these type of scenes.
Dunno. I wouldn't take Vegeta obliterating Boo as much since even bullets could pierce him, and Chaozu's self destruct could at least faze Nappa.

Makkankosappo definitely took some time. Piccolo charged it for a whole chapter, while in comparison Goku charged his Kamehameha in a panel.

Final Flash definitely wasn't that long though, only on Anime. Maybe the Final Flash really is >> Kamehameha, even though this sounds weird.

Btw the Daizenshuu 4 has a section dedicated to Ki attacks and their classifications if you or snyone is interested.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:47 pm

What are your numbers for the Mecha Freeza/Trunks' debut Arc?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:18 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:What are your numbers for the Mecha Freeza/Trunks' debut Arc?
Mecha Freeza: 150,000,000
King Cold: 95,000,000
(The new-and-improved Freeza thinks himself strong enough to beat Goku now, so I assume that he's around the same level Goku was at. Big daddy Cold isn't quite as strong as Freeza is, but is presumably strong enough to provide back-up if need be.)

SSj Trunks: 200,000,000
SSj Goku: 180,000,000
(Both are significantly stronger than Freeza was, since they both killed him and Cold in at least one reality. They're both pretty impressed with each other, but I'd say Trunks is a bit stronger so it's easier to swallow that he could keep up with Goku and Vegeta in the Androids arc, despite not having as much time to train.)

Vegeta: 3,000,000
Piccolo: 2,800,000
Gohan: 600,000
Kuririn: 100,000
Tenshinhan: 45,000
Yamcha: 30,000
Chaozu: 18,000
(Peanut gallery time. Piccolo and Vegeta have significantly improved in the last year or so. Since Piccolo's supposed to be in the Super Saiyan neighborhood three years from now, I'd say he's already starting to catch up to Vegeta. Gohan's mom is Chi-Chi, so he hasn't improved at all since Namek. Kuririn's maintaining a strong advantage over his contemporaries due to the power-up he got on Namek. Tenshinhan is pulling more ahead of Yamcha due to spending longer at Kaio's and just being generally more talented and dedicated. Status quo is God and Chaozu still sucks.)

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:35 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:What are your numbers for the Mecha Freeza/Trunks' debut Arc?
Mecha Frieza - 150,000,000 (As strong as SSJ Goku was on the Namek fight)

King Cold - 100,000,000 (Weaker than Final Form Frieza, but would be good help alongside him)

Future Trunks - 3,400,000
SSJ Future Trunks - 170,000,000 (Able to kill Mecha Frieza easily because the latter wasn't powered up. But even if he was powered up I think Trunks would have killed him still after a good fight)

Goku - 3,600,000
SSJ Goku - 180,000,000 (Stronger than Future Trunks, but not by much, they are relatively close to each other)

Vegeta - 3,000,000 (With training for like 2 years since his death, he manages to get to the level that his rival Goku had when he fought Frieza)

Piccolo - 2,700,000 (Piccolo's rapid increasings of training, which could potentially be because of Nail's influence in his fusion and a possible Guru boost in there, managed to get him close to Vegeta, though Vegeta still has an edge)

Gohan - 360,000 (This is the same power level that he would have by the end of the Namek arc, his "base" or "relaxed" power instead of his maximum "enraged" power, he didn't increase his strength since he didn't train and only studied)

Krillin - 180,000 (By the end of the Namek arc he would be at 135,000. Some more training on Earth, complementing it with his potential unlock from Guru, he would reach to 180,000, half of Gohan's strength without too much problem, his gap between him and Gohan shortened in comparison to what it was on Namek since Gohan doesn't train)

Tien - 120,000 (He manages to reach to Captain Ginyu's strength, given how Piccolo was able to surpass Nail when he revived, I think the humans were able to do the same, adding more time to train at King Kai's, this would be the result)

Yamcha - 80,000 (Even though it was filler, he was still able to defeat Recoome, though not as easily as Goku did, so he would be less than 60,000 at the time, adding some more time to train he would get here. The gap between Yamcha and Tien got wider since the former only trained with King Kai less days than the latter. I assume he did make some small training on Earth, though it wouldn't be that much)

Chiaotzu - 30,000 (Chiaotzu's gains are low in comparison to the others. After his whole King Kai training, he would get to around 29,000 or so. As said before, he wouldn't get that much gains like Yamcha or Tien, let alone the others)

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:07 am

I really liked those numbers. Of course i disagree with some stuff here and there, like Gohan and Kuririn being sort of weak (Specially Gohan on dragonball0900's list). Other than that, the numbers are pretty neat.

DanielSSJ why you think Trunks was stronger than Goku? I now this is a theory from Lightbing, but their sparring match was pretty clear on Goku being superior IMO. Trunks was holding back, but so was Goku by using a single finger.

My numbers are here, btw:
[spoiler]Cyborg Freeza: 400,000,000
King Cold: 200,000,000
Freeza has powered up and now believes he may be able to defeat Goku (Who i believe to be a 375mil by Namek) but is sure it's going to be a walk on the park if his father assists him.

SSJ Trunks: 500,000,000
SSJ Goku: 600,000,000
Trunks believes Freeza and Cold are total trash and effortlessy one shtos them both. Goku is even superior to that, with Trunks saying Goku is even stronger than the legends said

Vegeta: 8,000,000
Piccolo: 7,500,000
Gohan: 1,200,000
Kuririn: 600,000
Tenshinhan: 450,000
Yamcha: 360,000
Chaozu: 750
Piccolo and Vegeta have powered up considerably, with Piccolo finally closing the gap between him and Vegeta, as shown by him challenging Vegeta. Gohan still the same he was back on Namek when his potential fully capped out, and Kuririn probably did some improvements on the timeskip. Tenshinhan and Yamcha are not too far behind, having trained several months with Kaio. Chaozu is fodder.[/spoiler]
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:11 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:DanielSSJ why you think Trunks was stronger than Goku? I now this is a theory from Lightbing, but their sparring match was pretty clear on Goku being superior IMO. Trunks was holding back, but so was Goku by using a single finger.

My numbers are here, btw:
[spoiler]Cyborg Freeza: 400,000,000
King Cold: 200,000,000
Freeza has powered up and now believes he may be able to defeat Goku (Who i believe to be a 375mil by Namek) but is sure it's going to be a walk on the park if his father assists him.

SSJ Trunks: 500,000,000
SSJ Goku: 600,000,000
Trunks believes Freeza and Cold are total trash and effortlessy one shtos them both. Goku is even superior to that, with Trunks saying Goku is even stronger than the legends said

Vegeta: 8,000,000
Piccolo: 7,500,000
Gohan: 1,200,000
Kuririn: 600,000
Tenshinhan: 450,000
Yamcha: 360,000
Chaozu: 750
Piccolo and Vegeta have powered up considerably, with Piccolo finally closing the gap between him and Vegeta, as shown by him challenging Vegeta. Gohan still the same he was back on Namek when his potential fully capped out, and Kuririn probably did some improvements on the timeskip. Tenshinhan and Yamcha are not too far behind, having trained several months with Kaio. Chaozu is fodder.[/spoiler]
Neither character was fighting at full power, so I don't really think that either of them has to be stronger or weaker than the other. Goku could easily be stronger than Trunks, or they could be dead even. The reason why I went with making Trunks a bit stronger is due to convenience. It makes it a bit easier to swallow how Trunks was still within the same range as Goku and Vegeta after the timeskip despite having only a fraction of the time to train.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:30 pm

Regarding Gohan and Krillin, to be fair, they were quite portrayed as weak during this part of the arc in comparison to strong guys like Piccolo, Vegeta, etc. Given how Gohan improved that much during the 3 years training with stronger opponents such as Goku and Piccolo, his power growth would have to be quite big, not to mention his potential as a hybrid saiyan, yet he still only manages to get to base saiyan tier by the Android arc. 3,000,000 or a bit more seems quite good at that part. The 360,000 I gave Gohan is just his normal power, just like how in the guide it says his power against 2nd Form Frieza is 200,000 but could be more (hence the "?" sign). I also try to fit some anime filler scenes and all that don't contradict the manga information so it can work for both anime and manga.

In addition, I don't think that any human surpasses 1st Form Frieza.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DBZ Macky » Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:23 am

Why do you guys think Gero thought that the Earthlings would be a good source of energy? I think they'd at least have to be comparable to the Base Saiyans.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:18 pm

DBZ Macky wrote:Why do you guys think Gero thought that the Earthlings would be a good source of energy? I think they'd at least have to be comparable to the Base Saiyans.
Dr Gero didn't exactly know the Z fighter's strength for all we know. Just look at Piccolo. He didn't thought he would be that strong. Then he have the fact that the Z fighters have much more energy than the average human, that's why they confused Yamcha for Goku, their information stated that he had more energy than what any normal human at that city had at the moment.

Let's not forget, that Base Vegeta was able to break through Dr. Gero's door, while Tien and Krillin struggled to break it (they didn't even do it).

And finally, they were already much below Base Goku at the end of the Frieza arc, and 3 years before. Why would they suddenly become as strong as them in 3 years when they have the same kind of training? Specially Vegeta, he trained in a gravity chamber, while all the earthlings, who were already way weaker than him, just made normal training, obviously the gap widens between him and them even more (Krillin might keep up due to his potential unlock). It would be impossible for them to suddenly catch up to Base Vegeta, or Base Goku for that matter (Unless it's Super of course, where everything is pretty much possible).

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