Was Vegeta at his best during the Saiyan and Namek arcs?

[Forte224]

At that point he legitimately thought he was becoming a Super Saiyan. Which in his mind was this invincible warrior.

And when he egged on Zarbon, he thought he was legitimately stronger. And I was referring to when Vegeta goaded Freeza into transforming from his first to his second form. Vegeta is arrogant and is desperate to prove he's the strongest. He wasn't confident, he was deluded into believing himself to be a Super Saiyan. Had he known about Zarbon's transformation he still would've taunted him because that's who he is.

Vegeta was picking his battles. He admitted to himself a couple times that he wouldn't be able to take someone on yet. And he was basing this all on what he already knew about Cui, Dodoria, Zarbon, and Freeza. No, had he known about Zarbon's form and how powerful it was, he would've realized he needed to back off until later. Just look when he first got to Namek, he didn't dash straight to Freeza's crew and fight them. He admitted he couldnt do that and had to wait it out until they were split up. Look at when he stole the dragon balls. He didn't charge in and challenge Zarbon and Freeza. He tricked them and ran away. Look at when the Ginyu Force arrived. He teamed up with Gohan and Krillin because he knew that was the best chance he had to win. Same with when he fought Freeza. He included Gohan and Krillin in his goading of Freeza and how they were going to win. When Zarbon and Freeza transformed, both times Vegeta immediately was like "Oh crap, this wasn't what I was expecting at all." He was smarter this arc than you are making him out to be.

Vegeta didn't really do anything to make him interesting, outside of tanking a genki dama and surviving. But that doesn't make a good villain

He didn't tank the Genki Dama. He took it and survived. I find someone who can take a ton of punishment more interesting than just tanking something. It's not just that blast. He takes the best everyone has to offer him and he keeps going. It takes a monster landing on him in a severly weakened state to finally end things. Vegeta is just as brutal as Freeza. And despite having spent probably his whole life around Nappa, the second Nappa proves useless, he kills him without a second thought. How is all that not interesting?

Are you seriously calling out whether I used the word "tanked" correctly? You know damn well my point was that the genki dama hit him and that he survived and that I found that interesting about him. Shall I keep my vocab as basic as possible so you don't have the chance to nitpick it or do you still need your nitpick fix for the day? Anyway, nothing about him killing Nappa was interesting to me. He never does anything to show why he'd care about Nappa's well being. If anything, he totally seems like that type of guy to kill off dead weight. We learn this in his first appearance when, instead of wanting to resurrect Raditz with the dragon balls like Nappa suggested, he said to forget him and wanted immortality instead.

[ABED]

No, had he known about Zarbon's form and how powerful it was

Do you really think he cares? Freeza was still stronger than him in his first form and that didn't stop him from taunting him. Vegeta's arrogant and wants to prove how strong he is, and it bites him in the ass. He's not that different in subsequent arcs.

Anyway, nothing about him killing Nappa was interesting to me. He never does anything to show why he'd care about Nappa's well being. If anything, he totally seems like that type of guy to kill off dead weight. We learn this in his first appearance when, instead of wanting to resurrect Raditz with the dragon balls like Nappa suggested, he said to forget him and wanted immortality instead.

ANd that's interesting. He talks big about the Saiyan race and yet he doesn't give a shit about any of its actual members. How is this any different from Freeza? Freeza commits genocide and that makes him interesting, but because Vegeta has shown no care for his fellow Saiyans, it's not interesting when he kills them?

When Zarbon and Freeza transformed, both times Vegeta immediately was like "Oh crap, this wasn't what I was expecting at all." He was smarter this arc than you are making him out to be.

ANd if he were smarter, he wouldn't have taunted them to begin with. He did it out of arrogance. The fact that he didn't anticipate them beign that much stronger doesn't disprove my point. In fact it shows how foolish Vegeta is. Instead of understanding his opponents he rushes headstrong into a battle against opponents he doesn't fully comprehend. He's smart but he's also very foolish.

You know damn well my point was that the genki dama

I did and I was pointing out that there was more to it than just that one event. Jesus.

[Forte224]

On my phone so I'm not doing the whole quote thing. You'll know by my paragraphs which quote I'm referring to.

Yes he clearly cares because he avoids fights at times that he knows he can't win.

I guess I personally didn't find it interesting. A villain killing a subordinate he no longer has use for isn't exactly unique or interesting.

He taunted Zarbon because he knew his battle power and he knew he was way stronger than him (in his base form, the only form he knew about). He taunted Freeza because what else could he do at that point? Flee? When he sensed Freeza was on the way he was freaking out because Goku was out of commission still. That doesn't sound like someone itching for a fight and that doesn't sound like the arrogant Vegeta in later arcs that would scoff at even considering Goku's help. I'm not trying to say he was perfect in the arc but he was way more calculated in his decisions than later on in the series where he just kind of charges in and gets destroyed.

And sorry but I can't tell you over the couple years I've been on how often you like to latch on to one thing I say and not let it go. You probably don't remember me specifically but I do because you're very active here and never change your avatar so you're very recognizable. No hard feelings but I guess I was just annoyed.

[ABED]

On my phone so I'm not doing the whole quote thing. You'll know by my paragraphs which quote I'm referring to.

Yes he clearly cares because he avoids fights at times that he knows he can't win.

I guess I personally didn't find it interesting. A villain killing a subordinate he no longer has use for isn't exactly unique or interesting.

He taunted Zarbon because he knew his battle power and he knew he was way stronger than him (in his base form, the only form he knew about). He taunted Freeza because what else could he do at that point? Flee? When he sensed Freeza was on the way he was freaking out because Goku was out of commission still. That doesn't sound like someone itching for a fight and that doesn't sound like the arrogant Vegeta in later arcs that would scoff at even considering Goku's help. I'm not trying to say he was perfect in the arc but he was way more calculated in his decisions than later on in the series where he just kind of charges in and gets destroyed.

And sorry but I can't tell you over the couple years I've been on how often you like to latch on to one thing I say and not let it go. You probably don't remember me specifically but I do because you're very active here and never change your avatar so you're very recognizable. No hard feelings but I guess I was just annoyed.

But killing a bunch of aliens is?

When he was fighting Freeza, he was backed into a corner, but why taunt him? He did so because he's arrogant. He's freaking out about Freeza's first form, but sure, lets taunt him to transform, that worked out so well the last time. The sarcastic comment was aimed at Vegeta's actions, not you.

Sorry if I come off as confrontational. I like to debate, but some take that as being argumentative.

[Forte224]

On my phone so I'm not doing the whole quote thing. You'll know by my paragraphs which quote I'm referring to.

Yes he clearly cares because he avoids fights at times that he knows he can't win.

I guess I personally didn't find it interesting. A villain killing a subordinate he no longer has use for isn't exactly unique or interesting.

He taunted Zarbon because he knew his battle power and he knew he was way stronger than him (in his base form, the only form he knew about). He taunted Freeza because what else could he do at that point? Flee? When he sensed Freeza was on the way he was freaking out because Goku was out of commission still. That doesn't sound like someone itching for a fight and that doesn't sound like the arrogant Vegeta in later arcs that would scoff at even considering Goku's help. I'm not trying to say he was perfect in the arc but he was way more calculated in his decisions than later on in the series where he just kind of charges in and gets destroyed.

And sorry but I can't tell you over the couple years I've been on how often you like to latch on to one thing I say and not let it go. You probably don't remember me specifically but I do because you're very active here and never change your avatar so you're very recognizable. No hard feelings but I guess I was just annoyed.

But killing a bunch of aliens is?

When he was fighting Freeza, he was backed into a corner, but why taunt him? He did so because he's arrogant. He's freaking out about Freeza's first form, but sure, lets taunt him to transform, that worked out so well the last time. The sarcastic comment was aimed at Vegeta's actions, not you.

Sorry if I come off as confrontational. I like to debate, but some take that as being argumentative.

It's more the way he kills the aliens that I "like". He sits there, not even flying on his own despite being able to, talking all proper and calm while his men do all the work for him. And when Dodoria and Zarbon are dead, he still doesn't feel like doing anything so he calls the Ginyu Force and wants them to do all the work for him. He's just so into himself, but that's because he can be. I guess some of this can be attributed to Vegeta too, but I liked Freeza far more. Once again, I don't think Vegeta is a bad villain, he just never really interested me as one.

Well yeah sure, why taunt him? Like I clarified, I don't think Vegeta's perfect this arc, just more calculated and intelligent about his decisions than say, the Cell arc. Yes I know that wasn't directed at me. I'm not normally a sensitive person.

And no, I was in the wrong there. Blame it on lack of sleep if you will.

[ABED]

Fair enough. My problem with him in the Cell arc is he doesn’t seem to learn.

[Forte224]

Agreed, I still like his moment where he helped Gohan during the final Kamehameha clash though.

[Kinokima]

I’ve made no secret that Vegeta is my favorite dragon ball character so of course I admit how I see Vegeta is terribly biased. He’s my favorite in every arc.

However do I like him best as a villain? No not really! I’ve never been much of a villain fan to be honest. The only DB characters I actually loved who are straight villains are Black & Zamasu.

As for Vegeta I appreciate him as a villain only because of the character progression he made. Vegeta who he is now would not be such a great character if not for who he was in the Saiyajin, Namek, and Cell arc. And yes I even love Vegeta in the Cell arc because a flawed character is not a bad character.

However I do see Vegeta’s character development in a completely different way than most. Most people seem to think Vegeta’s major character development centered around his arrogance and accepting he is always going to be second to Goku. Sure too much arrogance is a flaw but it ties into Vegeta’s pride which is also a great strength for him. Even Future Trunks said Vegeta’s pride is what Bulma fell for and what he admired in Vegeta as well. Goku in the Freeza saga asked Vegeta to give him some of his Saiyajin pride. And yet so many people think Vegeta should just give up his pride, admit Goku is the best and sit back while Goku fights the villains. Even in the latest Super episode I see people again thinking Vegeta’s rivalry with Goku is now over which is definitely not true.

And while I get some people may not like when Vegeta’s is overly confident and arrogant that doesn’t make him evil or means he regressed. It’s his personality. I guess take it or leave it.


However where Vegeta’s true character development lies is in learning to care for others above himself. Vegeta was an evil alien who could care less about anyone else beyond his own power. That’s all he knew and he saw emotional attachments as something that makes you weak & to mock.

However he somehow finds himself with family and over time with circumstances keeping him on Earth he began to care about his family. Essentially Vegeta was a ruthless and cold alien who literally learned and eventually embraced humanity. That humanity is where Vegeta’s development really lies.

Acting like Vegeta has digressed because he may brag and boast a bit about himself is completely missing the point of his character growth. Vegeta is literally fighting for his family, Cabba, and his Universe. Not even that, Vegeta isnt just fighting for them he outright admits they are his motivation and that he isn’t giving up because he has something to protect. This same Vegeta who used to care about no one & saw attachments as a weakness.

Vegeta also cares about and respects Goku. He may not always outwardly show how he feels but that is just how Vegeta is. The thing is people see Vegeta wanting to surpass Goku as awful I see it as the ultimate form of respect for Goku. This isn’t Vegeta thinking he should be the better than Goku because Goku is a 3rd class warrior and Vegeta is the Elite Saiyajin Prince. Vegeta sees Goku as someone worthy to want to surpass.


Has Vegeta majorly changed in Super compared to who he was at the end of Z? Well honestly not really but that’s because the major change happened in Z. Super is really just the fruits of that change where Vegeta fully plays the role of a hero fighting for others. Even in the Buu saga he was conflicted about his role until the end.


So I know I got a little off topic from is he best in Saiyan & Namek arc. I think my point is for me Vegeta is just Vegeta in every arc. Every arc of Z he changed as a character. Not all those changes were necesssarily positive (like his mistakes with Perfect Cell) but they all lead to the Vegeta he has become in Super. A Vegeta who went from a selfish villain who once cried over himself to one who has selflessly fights for others who cried because he couldn’t keep his promise to those he cares about.

[Vegeta_Sama]

I don't think I would like Vegeta nearly as much if he stayed a villain. What draws me to his character is his development from his Saiyan arc days as a planet destroyer to the family man he is now. I loved the constant progression , each arc you could see something different in him. Don't get me wrong, he was still awesome as a villain, but removing the "family" side of him would detract from what made his character great.

[ABED]

I don't think I would like Vegeta nearly as much if he stayed a villain. What draws me to his character is his development from his Saiyan arc days as a planet destroyer to the family man he is now. I loved the constant progression , each arc you could see something different in him. Don't get me wrong, he was still awesome as a villain, but removing the "family" side of him would detract from what made his character great.

No different from characters like Spike from Buffy. There are characters that go through big changes and while we may like certain times more, it doesn't mean we would want them to stay that way as their change is a big part of the appeal.

[The Patrolman]

Absolutely

Berates Goku, calls him a low class warrior, and laughs at his philosophy on hardwork surpassing anything.



And actually backs up his insults





Was durable as all hell during the fight between him, Goku, Gohan, and Krillin



During the Namek Arc was just master strategist even when the odds were against him.



And over all was just straight up savage.

[GamerSkull]

These are all interesting views... but I agree with most of them as they are similar to what I said at the beginning.

I think I don't like Vegeta post-Namek because he's forgiven way too easily, he's still a douchebag that talks down to others, makes things harder for his allies despite being on their side, and basically gets rewarded despite formerly being a genocidal mass murderer. His outfit also looks less appealing (I really dig his Saiyan arc design). I think Vegeta was far more fun to see when he was strategizing and was a villain (or rather, not on the allies' side). To this day, I still think he should have permanently died to Freeza. It would have been a fantastic character arc with a fitting end.

Oh, well. I understand he's super popular even know and a lot of people love him post-Namek but I can't bring myself to feel the same way. I prefer Gohan in the deuteragonist role.

[Spider-Man]

1-Boo arc

2-Saiyan/Namek arcs

3-First half of Super

4-ToP

5-Cell Arc.

I say the Boo Arc is the best version of Vegeta his development was good,Cell arc on the other hand is the worst,he is really dumb and intolerable.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

1-Boo arc

2-Saiyan/Namek arcs

3-First half of Super

4-ToP

5-Cell Arc.

I say the Boo Arc is the best version of Vegeta his development was good,Cell arc on the other hand is the worst,he is really dumb and intolerable.

Buu arc Vegeta is a weird to me. It seemed like he developed enough in the 7 years and they basically stripped him of it, made him evil to then develop him again? Seemed bizarre. Had they made him like his Cell arc self at the start of the arc it would have worked but in my opinion the whole Majin Vegeta arc is super dumb. Pre and Post Majin Vegeta were exactly the same didn't change a thing, he still needed a massive speech by Goku to fuse, he then crushed the Potara when they de-fused and it wasn't until the Kid Buu fight when Vegeta finally stopped being an ass.

[ABED]

1-Boo arc

2-Saiyan/Namek arcs

3-First half of Super

4-ToP

5-Cell Arc.

I say the Boo Arc is the best version of Vegeta his development was good,Cell arc on the other hand is the worst,he is really dumb and intolerable.

Buu arc Vegeta is a weird to me. It seemed like he developed enough in the 7 years and they basically stripped him of it, made him evil to then develop him again? Seemed bizarre. Had they made him like his Cell arc self at the start of the arc it would have worked but in my opinion the whole Majin Vegeta arc is super dumb. Pre and Post Majin Vegeta were exactly the same didn't change a thing, he still needed a massive speech by Goku to fuse, he then crushed the Potara when they de-fused and it wasn't until the Kid Buu fight when Vegeta finally stopped being an ass.

Except I think you are missing the point. It's like he went through a midlife crisis. It was him rebelling against what he had let himself become only to realize he wasn't the same guy anymore. So yes, it's a step back to take two steps forward. And much of that progress is due to Goku being gone. Since he had no goal to strive towards, he had little purpose. Of course it wasn't until the very end that Vegeta fully got it. A good character arc doesn't mean constant progress. Sometimes it's appropriate to have a character slip into old habits.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

1-Boo arc

2-Saiyan/Namek arcs

3-First half of Super

4-ToP

5-Cell Arc.

I say the Boo Arc is the best version of Vegeta his development was good,Cell arc on the other hand is the worst,he is really dumb and intolerable.

Buu arc Vegeta is a weird to me. It seemed like he developed enough in the 7 years and they basically stripped him of it, made him evil to then develop him again? Seemed bizarre. Had they made him like his Cell arc self at the start of the arc it would have worked but in my opinion the whole Majin Vegeta arc is super dumb. Pre and Post Majin Vegeta were exactly the same didn't change a thing, he still needed a massive speech by Goku to fuse, he then crushed the Potara when they de-fused and it wasn't until the Kid Buu fight when Vegeta finally stopped being an ass.

Except I think you are missing the point. It's like he went through a midlife crisis. It was him rebelling against what he had let himself become only to realize he wasn't the same guy anymore. So yes, it's a step back to take two steps forward. And much of that progress is due to Goku being gone. Since he had no goal to strive towards, he had little purpose. Of course it wasn't until the very end that Vegeta fully got it. A good character arc doesn't mean constant progress. Sometimes it's appropriate to have a character slip into old habits.

But the problem I have is, even after his "midlife crisis" nothing changed. It wasn't two steps forward straight away, it was one step back then one step forward again for a while then finally a further step forward. He didn't need that step back to go twice forward.

If someone watched the start of the Buu arc and then cut to when Vegeta was resurrected and the only info they had was "he was killed trying to defeat Buu", they wouldn't be nonethewiser.

[ABED]

But the problem I have is, even after his "midlife crisis" nothing changed. It wasn't two steps forward straight away, it was one step back then one step forward again for a while then finally a further step forward. He didn't need that step back to go twice forward.

If someone watched the start of the Buu arc and then cut to when Vegeta was resurrected and the only info they had was "he was killed trying to defeat Buu", they wouldn't be nonethewiser.

But the Vegeta before his death wouldn't have went along with Goku's plan. And it's understandable that Vegeta wouldn't have made a huge step forward immediately considering what he did had no impact on Buu. I don't see the issue here. We see so little of him between the time he's brought back to fight Buu and him merging. Given where Vegeta started in the Saiyan arc, he makes a lot of progress. He absolutely needed to take that step back. To have him become a good guy and not pause to consider where he was and then try to go back I think would've been disingenuous. And I think there needed to be a payoff to the tension between him and Goku throughout the story.