Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Helios518]

What do you guys think of these shots? Aren’t they supremely wonderful/top tier?!
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Wrong thread. But this shot looks great and considering Geran vs Goku (IMO one of the best fights in the entire franchise), I hope this one surpasses it.

[GodVegetto91]

What do you guys think of these shots? Aren’t they supremely wonderful/top tier?!
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Wrong thread. But this shot looks great and considering Geran vs Goku (IMO one of the best fights in the entire franchise), I hope this one surpasses it.

You’re right. My bad. I thought i was posting in the official announcement thread. Fuck! Only now afterwards do i realize i posted in the wrong thread. Well mistakes happen.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Irrelavent yo this threat, but has anyone scene the leaked jiren and MUI goku? Jiren sultimate does 20,000 damage and goku can dodge anything simple (not supers or ULT) as long as he has stamina

[ZenkaiBoosts]

Funny exchange I saw


"I really wanna see what Whis is reacting about. It's face of satisfaction from the looks of it"

"Whis is overjoyed to have a student who actually learns things for once."

[ZenkaiBoosts]

Irrelavent yo this threat, but has anyone scene the leaked jiren and MUI goku? Jiren sultimate does 20,000 damage and goku can dodge anything simple (not supers or ULT) as long as he has stamina

From xenoverse 2?

[Kenneth La Torre]

Irrelavent yo this threat, but has anyone scene the leaked jiren and MUI goku? Jiren sultimate does 20,000 damage and goku can dodge anything simple (not supers or ULT) as long as he has stamina

From xenoverse 2?

Yes. Both are possibly the most broken characters In the game.

[Lord Beerus]

In chapter 29 the gods mention that restrained Toppo and SSGod Goku are already fighting on their level. This supposed to imply that the gap between Goku & Vegeta and the GoDs isn't ridiculously massive for the manga as in the anime?

It's very ambiguous. In Chapter 26 Mastered/Controlled SSJB Vegeta, who is stated to be on par with Goku by Whis himself, fights Beerus and when Vegeta punches Beerus, Beerus no sells it and flattens Vegeta like a pancake with one attack. And just to add insult to injury, Beerus wasn't fighting seriously at all and outright state it would take "a million years" before he could become his rival. Indicating that the gap in power between Goku and Vegeta and the Hakaishin is still quite huge. But Beerus does mention that Vegeta could be candidate for a Hakaishin in another universe...

Also to note, Goku outright said he didn't know how long he would last against a God of Destruction after watching them fight, so he didn't feel comfortable fighting any of them.

Also in the anime, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan shocked all the Gods of the Destruction and they called it a power that 'rivaled even the gods'. Yet we know the Gods of Destruction would smashed Goku in that moment, yes even Sibra that fans like to downplay into the ground.

Yeah, it's teased in both the anime and manga that Goku (and by virtue Vegeta) had potentially reached a realm of power that could rival the Gods. So mortals rivallaing and possibly surpassing the power of the Hakaishin(s) certainly had some foundation.

[MajinVegetaPD]

What does that have to do with anything? They’re two completely different cases. In Freeza’s case it was a weak henchman with only a very Very small portion of Sidra’s Hakai energy. In this case, Vegeta straight up defeated a God of Destruction in combat. In every possible way! Vegeta was clearly the superior fighter.

Furthermore, i said LOW Angel Tier. Please read properly before making judgements. Thanks.

I did read properly. You are just cherry picking to back up your argument.

There are no stated Tiers of power for the Angels, where as there are for GoD's as described by an official Toei illustration before the ToP started.

I am a huge Vegeta fan, but thinking he can beat a GoD such as Beerus who has been in power for eons compared to a fresh GoD such as Toppo is laughable. I'm not that big of a mark.

Until stated in the anime or Manga, everything is head cannon right now. Hopefully some light will be shed soon, but until then it's all an assumption.

You're a Vegeta a fan? No one would have ever guessed that going by your posts. Huge shocker lol; ) haha j/k. Just busting your chops lol. But really, MUI Goku surpassing the gods is not headcanon. Its fact now

Yes, I've seen that floating around. I still am holding off on assumptions until things are wrapped up. We've all heard the "rivaling/surpassing gods" jargon many times before to the point that it doesn't hold much weight anymore. I think it's a bit irresponsible to have a summary convince me otherwise. I'm hoping once the final battle is over there will be something concrete to line up everything.

[Kenneth La Torre]

I did read properly. You are just cherry picking to back up your argument.

There are no stated Tiers of power for the Angels, where as there are for GoD's as described by an official Toei illustration before the ToP started.

I am a huge Vegeta fan, but thinking he can beat a GoD such as Beerus who has been in power for eons compared to a fresh GoD such as Toppo is laughable. I'm not that big of a mark.

Until stated in the anime or Manga, everything is head cannon right now. Hopefully some light will be shed soon, but until then it's all an assumption.

You're a Vegeta a fan? No one would have ever guessed that going by your posts. Huge shocker lol; ) haha j/k. Just busting your chops lol. But really, MUI Goku surpassing the gods is not headcanon. Its fact now

Yes, I've seen that floating around. I still am holding off on assumptions until things are wrapped up. We've all heard the "rivaling/surpassing gods" jargon many times before to the point that it doesn't hold much weight anymore. I think it's a bit irresponsible to have a summary convince me otherwise. I'm hoping once the final battle is over there will be something concrete to line up everything.

Quote me anytime before the introduction of jiren where they even referenced anyone being on hakaishin level or above, just one phrase from the anime... cause they never mentioned the “rivaling/surpassing gods” Jarhon that you so say. The first ever we have heard that was in episode 93, and that was about jiren.

[MajinVegetaPD]

You're a Vegeta a fan? No one would have ever guessed that going by your posts. Huge shocker lol; ) haha j/k. Just busting your chops lol. But really, MUI Goku surpassing the gods is not headcanon. Its fact now

Yes, I've seen that floating around. I still am holding off on assumptions until things are wrapped up. We've all heard the "rivaling/surpassing gods" jargon many times before to the point that it doesn't hold much weight anymore. I think it's a bit irresponsible to have a summary convince me otherwise. I'm hoping once the final battle is over there will be something concrete to line up everything.

Quote me anytime before the introduction of jiren where they even referenced anyone being on hakaishin level or above, just one phrase from the anime... cause they never mentioned the “rivaling/surpassing gods” Jarhon that you so say. The first ever we have heard that was in episode 93, and that was about jiren.

Sure thing.

Episode 53:

Gowasa says out loud while watching Goku fight Zamasu: "Who is he? He's not even a god and his power rivals the God of Destruction!"

Episode 82:

Khai from Universe 11 : "This Pressure"
Roh from Universe 9: "Power that rivals the Gods"
Sidra from Universe 9: "How terrifying...that Universe 7"

There's more.....you asked for 1, I gave you 2 that I remember clearly.

[Logania]

Irrelavent yo this threat, but has anyone scene the leaked jiren and MUI goku? Jiren sultimate does 20,000 damage and goku can dodge anything simple (not supers or ULT) as long as he has stamina

Doesn't surprise me. Those two plus the new SSGSS transformation having such a power boost where I can do 14,000 with just doing a basic combo and 1-bar special they're finally embracing the craziness lol

[TheSaiyanGod]

In chapter 29 the gods mention that restrained Toppo and SSGod Goku are already fighting on their level. This supposed to imply that the gap between Goku & Vegeta and the GoDs isn't ridiculously massive for the manga as in the anime?

It's very ambiguous. In Chapter 26 Mastered/Controlled SSJB Vegeta, who is stated to be on par with Goku by Whis himself, fights Beerus and when Vegeta punches Beerus, Beerus no sells it and flattens Vegeta like a pancake with one attack. And just to add insult to injury, Beerus wasn't fighting seriously at all and outright state it would take "a million years" before he could become his rival. Indicating that the gap in power between Goku and Vegeta and the Hakaishin is still quite huge. But Beerus does mention that Vegeta could be candidate for a Hakaishin in another universe...

Beerus's talk about '' 1 million years '' was merely a hyperbole. Not to mention that Hakaishin was bragging about his victory over Vegeta

But we know that Beerus had to fight seriously to defeat MSSB Vegeta.

Even in the manga, I do not think the power difference between Goku / Vegeta and the Hakaishins is so great

[Kenneth La Torre]

In chapter 29 the gods mention that restrained Toppo and SSGod Goku are already fighting on their level. This supposed to imply that the gap between Goku & Vegeta and the GoDs isn't ridiculously massive for the manga as in the anime?

It's very ambiguous. In Chapter 26 Mastered/Controlled SSJB Vegeta, who is stated to be on par with Goku by Whis himself, fights Beerus and when Vegeta punches Beerus, Beerus no sells it and flattens Vegeta like a pancake with one attack. And just to add insult to injury, Beerus wasn't fighting seriously at all and outright state it would take "a million years" before he could become his rival. Indicating that the gap in power between Goku and Vegeta and the Hakaishin is still quite huge. But Beerus does mention that Vegeta could be candidate for a Hakaishin in another universe...

Beerus's talk about '' 1 million years '' was merely a hyperbole. Not to mention that Hakaishin was bragging about his victory over Vegeta

But we know that Beerus had to fight seriously to defeat MSSB Vegeta.

Even in the manga, I do not think the power difference between Goku / Vegeta and the Hakaishins is so great

What we can gather from the vegeta vs beerus fight is that an easy going beerus can struggle with a cssb vegeta/goku. And that once he goes any level of seriousness, he can one shot them. Which would also go to other Hakaishins as well, including jiren, who could blink away a ssb with 20x the power.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Cell stated that Gohan couldn't even surpass him in 1000 years and he wasn't even close to being 2x stronger than him. It's an expression and nothing more. Hyperbole.

Beerus stated that Vegeta is strong enough to fulfill the position of God in another universe, so no the Gods aren't anywhere near being multiple times stronger than Goku and Vegeta. And in the anime it was stated that SSB Goku rivaled the Gods. So the idea that the Gods are tiers upon tiers stronger than the Saiyans never held water. That literally goes against what's stated in the story.

A representation like this seems accurate enough.
[spoiler]Super Saiyan God=[6,000,000,000xbase]
Super Saiyan Blue=[1.12xSuper Saiyan God]/[6,720,000,000xbase]
Super Saiyan Blue(Complete)=[1.358xSuper Saiyan God]/[8,148,000,000xbase]

Base Goku(TOP arc): 108,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku: 5,400,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Goku: 10,800,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 Goku: 43,200,000,000,000
Super Saiyan God Goku: 648,000,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Goku: 725,760,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Goku(Complete): 879,984,000,000,000,000,000

Beerus: 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Belmod: 1,020,000,000,000,000,000,000

Quitela: 1,010,000,000,000,000,000,000

Champa: 995,000,000,000,000,000,000

Sidra: 960,000,000,000,000,000,000

Iwne: 980,000,000,000,000,000,000

Arack: 980,000,000,000,000,000,000

Liquiir: 980,000,000,000,000,000,000

Rumsshi: 990,000,000,000,000,000,000

Helles: 970,000,000,000,000,000,000

Mosco: 985,000,000,000,000,000,000

Geene: 975,000,000,000,000,000,000[/spoiler]

Complete SSB Goku and Vegeta are somewhat within a direct rivaling range of the weaker Gods in my list such as Sidra, Helles and Geene, but the Gods stronger than them are out of reach. Which fits with Beerus stating that Vegeta could fill the role of God in a different universe and Goku's statement that he was still behind the current Gods in power.

It all comes back to Toriyama's 6-10-15 which people think was thrown out for some odd reason despite this not being stated. SSJG Goku is 60% of Beerus and Ivan states that Goku and Toppo have reached the tier of the Gods, so more likely than not the same idea has been retained.
Also reinforced by the anime with Vegeta forcing Beerus to use 10%. Goku and Vegeta are on the tier of the Gods, not multiple times weaker.

[GodVegetto91]

Cell stated that Gohan couldn't even surpass him in 1000 years and he wasn't even close to being 2x stronger than him. It's an expression and nothing more. Hyperbole.

Beerus stated that Vegeta is strong enough to fulfill the position of God in another universe, so no the Gods aren't anywhere near being multiple times stronger than Goku and Vegeta. And in the anime it was stated that SSB Goku rivaled the Gods. So the idea that the Gods are tiers upon tiers stronger than the Saiyans never held water. That literally goes against what's stated in the story.

A representation like this seems accurate enough.
[spoiler]Super Saiyan God=[6,000,000,000xbase]
Super Saiyan Blue=[1.12xSuper Saiyan God]/[6,720,000,000xbase]
Super Saiyan Blue(Complete)=[1.358xSuper Saiyan God]/[8,148,000,000xbase]

Base Goku(TOP arc): 108,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku: 5,400,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Goku: 10,800,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 Goku: 43,200,000,000,000
Super Saiyan God Goku: 648,000,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Goku: 725,760,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Goku(Complete): 879,984,000,000,000,000,000

Beerus: 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Belmod: 1,020,000,000,000,000,000,000

Quitela: 1,010,000,000,000,000,000,000

Champa: 995,000,000,000,000,000,000

Sidra: 960,000,000,000,000,000,000

Iwne: 980,000,000,000,000,000,000

Arack: 980,000,000,000,000,000,000

Liquiir: 980,000,000,000,000,000,000

Rumsshi: 990,000,000,000,000,000,000

Helles: 970,000,000,000,000,000,000

Mosco: 985,000,000,000,000,000,000

Geene: 975,000,000,000,000,000,000[/spoiler]

Complete SSB Goku and Vegeta are somewhat within a direct rivaling range of the weaker Gods in my list such as Sidra, Helles and Geene, but the Gods stronger than them are out of reach. Which fits with Beerus stating that Vegeta could fill the role of God in a different universe and Goku's statement that he was still behind the current Gods in power.

It all comes back to Toriyama's 6-10-15 which people think was thrown out for some odd reason despite this not being stated. SSJG Goku is 60% of Beerus and Ivan states that Goku and Toppo have reached the tier of the Gods, so more likely than not the same idea has been retained.
Also reinforced by the anime with Vegeta forcing Beerus to use 10%. Goku and Vegeta are on the tier of the Gods, not multiple times weaker.

Pretty sure Geene is among the strongest top tier GoDs. In fact, he may be even the absolute Nr. 1. So i really don’t see how you could have him so low. The anime is the main source of the story, and what we are debating here other than in the manga thread. The manga is a completely different story from the anime, and Toyotaro does lots of irrational and illogical things. The anime hinted at Geene being the strongest quite clearly, the manga does the near opposite. So these two stories are incompatible with eachother. And cannot be reconciled.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Cell stated that Gohan couldn't even surpass him in 1000 years and he wasn't even close to being 2x stronger than him. It's an expression and nothing more. Hyperbole.

Beerus stated that Vegeta is strong enough to fulfill the position of God in another universe, so no the Gods aren't anywhere near being multiple times stronger than Goku and Vegeta. And in the anime it was stated that SSB Goku rivaled the Gods. So the idea that the Gods are tiers upon tiers stronger than the Saiyans never held water. That literally goes against what's stated in the story.

A representation like this seems accurate enough.
[spoiler]Super Saiyan God=[6,000,000,000xbase]
Super Saiyan Blue=[1.12xSuper Saiyan God]/[6,720,000,000xbase]
Super Saiyan Blue(Complete)=[1.358xSuper Saiyan God]/[8,148,000,000xbase]

Base Goku(TOP arc): 108,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku: 5,400,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Goku: 10,800,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 Goku: 43,200,000,000,000
Super Saiyan God Goku: 648,000,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Goku: 725,760,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Goku(Complete): 879,984,000,000,000,000,000

Beerus: 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Belmod: 1,020,000,000,000,000,000,000

Quitela: 1,010,000,000,000,000,000,000

Champa: 995,000,000,000,000,000,000

Sidra: 960,000,000,000,000,000,000

Iwne: 980,000,000,000,000,000,000

Arack: 980,000,000,000,000,000,000

Liquiir: 980,000,000,000,000,000,000

Rumsshi: 990,000,000,000,000,000,000

Helles: 970,000,000,000,000,000,000

Mosco: 985,000,000,000,000,000,000

Geene: 975,000,000,000,000,000,000[/spoiler]

Complete SSB Goku and Vegeta are somewhat within a direct rivaling range of the weaker Gods in my list such as Sidra, Helles and Geene, but the Gods stronger than them are out of reach. Which fits with Beerus stating that Vegeta could fill the role of God in a different universe and Goku's statement that he was still behind the current Gods in power.

It all comes back to Toriyama's 6-10-15 which people think was thrown out for some odd reason despite this not being stated. SSJG Goku is 60% of Beerus and Ivan states that Goku and Toppo have reached the tier of the Gods, so more likely than not the same idea has been retained.
Also reinforced by the anime with Vegeta forcing Beerus to use 10%. Goku and Vegeta are on the tier of the Gods, not multiple times weaker.

Pretty sure Geene is among the strongest top tier GoDs. In fact, he may be even the absolute Nr. 1. So i really don’t see how you could have him so low. The anime is the main source of the story, and what we are debating here other than in the manga thread. The manga is a completely different story from the anime, and Toyotaro does lots of irrational and illogical things. The anime hinted at Geene being the strongest quite clearly, the manga does the near opposite. So these two stories are incompatible with eachother. And cannot be reconciled.

There is absolutely nothing stating green is the strongest, none, no, zero evidence. Geene just knew the out come if the fight (the grand priest making the fix the stage). If anything, the manga and anime shows us that the gap between gods are very small, as each can fight each other quite evenly.

[GodVegetto91]

I don't really know where people got the impression that Toppo is on the same level as the other Hakaishin, just because he uses destruction energy? Goku does that in the manga too and he's miles behind Beerus.

Rather, I don't think Toppo could top even the weakest Hakaishin considering how Vegeta manhandled him. Maybe the latter is on said level because of his "mah promise" powerup, but I have my doubts.

This is where they got their impression from. How could you possibly deny these statements?





And there is NO evidence to the contrary! None, nope, zero. There are only fans assuming that because he’s a newbie and needed time charging up his hakai energy at first. That is all. Nothing to do with power and doesn’t prove anything.

[Kenneth La Torre]

I don't really know where people got the impression that Toppo is on the same level as the other Hakaishin, just because he uses destruction energy? Goku does that in the manga too and he's miles behind Beerus.

Rather, I don't think Toppo could top even the weakest Hakaishin considering how Vegeta manhandled him. Maybe the latter is on said level because of his "mah promise" powerup, but I have my doubts.

This is where they got their impression from. How could you possibly deny these statements?





And there is NO evidence to the contrary! None, nope, zero. There are only fans assuming that because he’s a newbie and needed time charging up his hakai energy at first. That is all. Nothing to do with power and doesn’t prove anything.

I agree with that statement that toppo is just as strong as any hakaishin. Tho the others would straight up murder him do to toppo being super new at the job and inexperienced.

[SayianBeyondGod]

Here's some context of the translations from the V-Jump magazine about Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku:



(copying and pasting a response a Japanese translator made when I asked him whether or not MUI Goku surpasses every hakaishin)

It seems to be more of a general thing, as in that new power of Goku surpasses that of a God of Destruction, implied an average one I guess.

- それは破壊神をも超越する力！
- Sore wa hakaishin wo mo chouetsu suru chikara !

I would translate it as "This is the power that surpasses even that of a God of Destruction's !".

If they had really wanted to say that he had surpassed all of them they could've added something like 破壊神達 (Hakaishin-tachi / Gods of Destruction) or 全員の破壊神 (Zenin no Hakaishin / All the Gods of Destruction), but there's no plural indicator or anything there.

Anyway, it all depends on whether the author believes all the Gods of Destruction are at roughly the same level or not. If he does then you could understand that sentence as "He surpassed all of them" but if I had to base my opinion solely on what's written, nothing indicates he's talking about all of them.

For what it's worth, on the side you have this:
- それはウイスとの修業中に仄めかされた、神すら辿り着けぬ境地
- Sore ha Whis to no shuugyouchuu ni honomekasareta, kami sura tadoritsukenu kyouchi
- This is what Whis hinted at during his lessons, a state that even Gods struggle to reach

So it could also be that it's talking about the technique, rather than Goku himself. As in, "This is the power/technique that is beyond even most Gods of Destruction" if you get what I mean.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Here's some context of the translations from the V-Jump magazine about Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku:



(copying and pasting a response a Japanese translator made when I asked him whether or not MUI Goku surpasses every hakaishin)

It seems to be more of a general thing, as in that new power of Goku surpasses that of a God of Destruction, implied an average one I guess.

- それは破壊神をも超越する力！
- Sore wa hakaishin wo mo chouetsu suru chikara !

I would translate it as "This is the power that surpasses even that of a God of Destruction's !".

If they had really wanted to say that he had surpassed all of them they could've added something like 破壊神達 (Hakaishin-tachi / Gods of Destruction) or 全員の破壊神 (Zenin no Hakaishin / All the Gods of Destruction), but there's no plural indicator or anything there.

Anyway, it all depends on whether the author believes all the Gods of Destruction are at roughly the same level or not. If he does then you could understand that sentence as "He surpassed all of them" but if I had to base my opinion solely on what's written, nothing indicates he's talking about all of them.

For what it's worth, on the side you have this:
- それはウイスとの修業中に仄めかされた、神すら辿り着けぬ境地
- Sore ha Whis to no shuugyouchuu ni honomekasareta, kami sura tadoritsukenu kyouchi
- This is what Whis hinted at during his lessons, a state that even Gods struggle to reach

So it could also be that it's talking about the technique, rather than Goku himself. As in, "This is the power/technique that is beyond even most Gods of Destruction" if you get what I mean.

It’s all the gods. That’s the reason they say surpass a god of destruction, instead of a specific one. They mean the level in general. It would be weird as hell to be a specific god.