The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Asura]

Caulifla vs Gohan

[Helios518]

Caulifla vs Gohan

Gohan stomps as he’s near Blue tier while Caulifla was getting casually stomped by SSJG.

[TheUltimateNinja]

- Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta vs. Kaioken x10 + Super Saiyan Rosé Goku Black

Vegeta destroys Black with no effort considering he's comparable to current SSBKKx20 Goku.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

We have no way to know if Toriyama forgot or not so that leaves what you're sure of invalid. He might have forgotten, but because there's no proof of it, then we can't say he really forgot. This renders the "stronger than me" argument invalid whatsoever.

It's quite confusing. Piccolo does give the ok to Gotenks' Ki when he senses him, so Goku was not lying about Gotenks being stronger than him. This raises the question of why he told this Piccolo, but not Boo, who asked about Gotenks' power... It does sound like an inconsistence, if you ask me.

Gohan being thought to have died isn't an inconsistency and was made purposedly. Everyone thought that Gohan died because they couldn't sense his Ki anywhere on earth or nearby, but that was to be made so that Gohan could power up and come back again to kill Buu. Kaioshin for some reason wanted everyone to think Gohan died which explains why he told Kibito to heal him after he sends him to the Kaioshin Realm.

I'm talking about how everyone thought they couldn't revive Gohan even though he never died before. They said multiple times he was gone forever.

My "Goku was lying" argument has many basis towards it. The fact that Goku was calming everybody due to the fact that they were worried makes it more evident. His statement was contradicted, and the rest of the "Gotenks will beat Fat buu" is a contradiction to what he revealed later, in which his Ki hasn't reached the Kaioshin realm, not once has it been stated he could beat Buu, and the atmosphere was worried sick. Moreover, Most of Goku's statements were based on the overestimated guess of Goten's and Trunks's powers which he then calls a gamble to leave them fight buu after sensing their powers. Goku originally thought Goten and Trunks would have 5 days of training, and at one point he changes his guesses, which makes Goku's point floating irrationally and illogically all over. Piccolo even tells Gotenks to train as much as possible to fight Buu, and that he needed every single minute. This absolutely defeats your point.

You assume he was lying to calm everybody, that's quite different. Piccolo says Gotenks' Ki really is incredible (Mind you really is a word used to confirm things) and only asks if his speed in on pair with power. As for Gotenks' Ki not being sensed, i'd like to make a parallel with a specific statement from the Cell Games:
Chapter: 407 (DBZ 213), P5.3
Context: as the Cell Juniors beat everyone up
Cell (to Gohan): “If you don’t show your true worth soon, things will go past the point of no return. Look closely. Vegeta or Trunks are barely fighting evenly…Even Son Goku is in trouble, having lost his stamina…”

Although Cell says both Vegeta and Trunks are able to fight evenly, we only see Vegeta fighting back. So are we going to assume Cell was lying because we don't see Trunks fighting back too? No. Same with Gotenks: It's stated he will be able to beat Boo, thus he's Super Saiyan 3 tier and would be sensed, it just wasn't shown. Nobody seems worried sick between Super Saiyan Gotenks' birth and Boo's transformation either.

I don't see how Goku lowering the days has anything to do with this. He actually implied he wasn't sure if the kids could master it in time ("If he perfects the technique....") and even refered to the time gamble Piccolo mentioned earlier. So Goku asking for less days is nothing but a contradiction of his part, and if anything implies Gotenks is stronger, as he lowers the time Gotenks has to train.

That pretty much shows how he's also lying all over. He's been claiming he's inferior to fat Buu and that he needed to fuse, just due to his childish demeanour and twisted thoughts in a crisis like this threading the existence of the Universe. This same logic can be applied to Gotenks where Goku says he's going to be stronger despite showing many contradictions and twists, and flaming everybody and calling it a gamble to Piccolo. It wouldn't be a gamble if Gotenks was stronger than Goku considering Fat Buu was getting overpowered by Goku:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Goku manages to reach a new level of supersaiyano. This new transformation, fruit of his training in the Hereafter, has enough power to defeat Bu, although his appearance has worsened a bit.

Yet he calls It a gamble for Gotenks to fight fat Buu but he wants to leave it to the next generation because a dead guy won't be there to save them so they should depend on themselves. This implies that Goku thinks of his superiority to them but they need to be dependant on themselves. Piccolo yet still thinks Goku is weaker than Fat Buu based on what Goku told him, that guessing Buu's power is a lie. Piccolo agrees and when Gotenks appears he tells him to train as much as possible to beat Buu. This is more supported by how hid energy didn't reach the Kaioshin Realm and wasn't noted to be good at all. Piccolo wanted Gotenks to train and get ready as fast as possible to fight Fat Buu in the Anime even after Ssj Gotenks, and that's besides the point that Piccolo told Gotenks to train as much as possible, but that is not needed if he's superior to Fat Buu

Except Goku was only lying about being unable to beat Boo because he didn't think it was his responsability as he tells Piccolo. This doesn't mean he's making a huge lie about Gotenks' power at all, specially when no one notes Gotenks being weaker than what Goku said, they only praize him.

It could be a gamble for many reasons: The boys might not learn the technique in time, they could not have a technique strong/big enough to fully obliterate Boo, they could be too immature to fight properly, etc.

He only told Base Gotenks to train. After he sees Super Saiyan Gotenks he just let the kids sleep on the Lookout until was time to fight Boo. He even told Boo the boys were supposed to fight as soon as they wake up:


If we are going with the anime we might as well talk about SSJ Goku and Vegeta beating SSJ3 Gotenks. I don't think the anime should hold any value aside from comparing translations from manga only moments.

Yet all in all Piccolo got the impression that Goku is weaker than Fat Buu, based on what Goku told him which is quite evident enough so your point gets defeated here. Piccolo was still worried sick when Goku told him that he told Buu Gotenks will be stronger than him (which is a lie) and wanted Gotenks to train as much as possible despite him supposedly being above Goku, which means piccolo has the impression that Goku is fodder to Buu either way. Even then, Gotenks Pre ROSAT is fodder and was never shown to be anywhere near mid-high tier Buu Saga characters

Been corrected on this 2 or 3 times man. Goku never implies he's weaker than Fat Boo after they fight. They fight evenly and he says he probably couldn't beat him. He was also unable to beat Pure Boo, is Goku weaker than him now?

He still took the gamble AFTER sensing their powers which were weaker than his expectations, but that doesn't mean they are fodder. It is a gamble based on the Ki he sensed from them, but he didn't say it's absolutely hopeless. Gotenks had the ROSAT, and originally Goku thought Gotenks have no time to become powerful enough to beat Buu in 5 days despite telling Piccolo that they will learn the technique fast, and that's when he was overestimating the kids.

Pre ROSAT Gotenks is nowhere near Goku. As for Post ROSAT, it's debatable

Actually, Goku never implies they're below his expectatives. He asks "Alright, so that's full?", he's just asking if they're at full power. Him being disappointed is a Viz thing (So that's it...?) that is not supported by Herms nor the Japanese Anime. The gamble could be about multiple things man: Time (Like Piccolo mentioned), their immaturity (They are kids and Goku saw how they fought at the Budokai), not having a technique powerful enough to completely obliterate Boo, etc. Power is the last thing the gamble could be about, Goku flat out says power is the reason he's taking the gamble.

While Gotenks does have the Rosat, Goku flat out tells Piccolo he should not use the room because they might need on future threats. Goku asking for less than five days means absolutely nothing about his predicition on Gotenks being off, unless you're trying to tell me he wanted everyone on Earth to die as soon as possible...

It is not debeatable if Gotenks is weaker than Goku at all. Pre is stated and confirmed to be stronger, Post Base Gotenks would one shot Goku.

That's exactly why you're asking these questions when they were covered in my earlier reply which you bashed most of it and revolved around a single topic. Goku wanted the boys to learn the technique and have as much time as possible to train to prepare for Buu. That's evident by how Piccolo told Gotenks to train as much as possible before fighting Buu.

Goku, after fighting buu, comes back to train Goten and Trunks because that's the last hope left on earth, and he didn't say it was hopeless, but it was a gamble, so it is a slim to a deadly chance but he took it. This is shown by the fact that Goku told Buu a fighter will come to fight him.

Goku never told Piccolo to not get the boys into the ROSAT, except he told him it's unneeded, but Piccolo was referencing the time it takes to learn the technique since it took a week for Goku to learn. Goku's statement of the ROSAT is vague and could mean fat Buu and more to the future, and if Gotenks had no time they'd have him enter the ROSAT either way. Goku is telling Chi Chi not to worry as the atmosphere is centred around all that. Goku didn't say not to use the ROSAT, as Gotenks had time to train so he might become stronger and enough to fight buu. Piccolo believes Gotenks still needs training to fight buu, hence he tells him to train.

If Goku wanted the boys to have as much time as possible why he lowered the time from 5 days to 2? Lowering the time is quite contradictory when he shows uncertain about the boys learning in time, but still shows how much he had faith Gotenks would be strong enough.

And like i said multiple times, the gamble was first brought by Piccolo about time and took by Goku because of their power. You should make a counter for this, not keep saying the gamble was about power.

Still, the way he words the statement implies Rosat shouldn't be necessary because of future threats:
Episode: 242
Minute: 18
Piccolo: "Are you using the Room of Spirit and Time?"
Goku: "No. You can only use that room for two days during your lifetime, right? There might be a time afterward they need it."
I don't think you would say "A time afterward" for a thing that's about to happen. This also implies Gotenks > Boo as Goku is already looking forward to future villians, like they shouldn't care about Boo anymore. Piccolo doesn't send the boys to the Rosat after he sees Super Saiyan Gotenks either until Boo power ups into Super Boo, what implies Rosat was not necessary for Gotenks to beat Boo.

You know this completely contradicts Piccolo's reaction when he saw Goten and Trunks merging perfectly:

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

There's absolutely no reason to be shocked if they could do it perfectly from before, so this point breaks. That was before he sensed their increase in power, as he still was under the impression Gotenks hasn't improved much:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

So not really.

So... Your point is that they fused wrongly twice before? Piccolo actually has a reason to be surprised, out of four times the boys tried fusion, they missed twice. There was still a 50% possibility they could miss based on past situations.

They did perfect fusion, as not only the entry (That was written by Toriyama, mind you) says so but Roshi and Kuririn actually commemore on both times Gotenks fuses, claiming they fused perfectly:
Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P11.1
Context: after Gotenks is formed successfully for the first time
Kame-sennin: “Wh-what a storm of ki…! They did it! It’s a success!”

There's absolutely no proof that Super Buu is astronomically above Fat Buu. All we're given in the show is that Super Buu has powered up a bit further due to his partial true character got unlocked. Almost All guides say nothing about super buu being stronger than Fat Buu or even far beyond him. El Manga Legendario notes that the major difference between fat buu and super buu is related to each one's dangerousness. Super Buu is far too dangerous in comparison to fat buu:

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

Daizenshuu States Buu powered up:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

That's it. It could also reference Good Buu when he split or Gray Buu, which are inferior to Fat Buu. The reason super buu would be stronger is because his true character plays more of a role on him:

What is the key to winning in battle?
In battle, the most important thing is the size of your ki, and your control over it. Ki as a concept of course includes such spiritual powers as energy [genki], courage [yūki], and right-mindedness [shōki; could also translate as True Character]11. No matter how much you train, there are limits to physical strength, and the only way to overcome that is through ki. I think Goku was able to approach the mightiest warriors in the universe through strengthening his ki.

However, disregarding that, it would make Super Buu slightly above Fat Buu. Piccolo's statement about "everything about him is greater than before" is for precaution, as Everything being greater would also mean he's far more naive, childish and idiotic which is the opposite. Krillin, Piccolo and Dende clearly referenced directly the fact that Buu's energy changed in a way into a more pure evil form, and Z Fighters can tell apart Good and Evil Ki. Goten and Trunks were looking at Super Buu and were shocked of his appearance, then Piccolo told them that he changed and not only his appearance but everything is greater, which also includes evil heart, but holds barely anything about "power" because all he referenced before about power is having a good body better suited for battle, which is not proving anything as having a better body doesn't equate to more power. Sure we already know super buu did get stronger but nowhere near astronomical, and only a bit, to the point that the main focus was surrounding his evil heart and that's all. Saying super buu got far stronger would mean we're taking things so much out of context. Super Buu is more dangerous, just like Kid Buu being more dangerous than Buuhan, same case.

Yet Piccolo states that Gotenks after the ROSAT would need a miracle to win:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Super Buu is above Fat Buu, but he's still close in power.

Super Boo actually is far above Fatso. The Daizenshuu scan you posted says Boo has achieved a super power up, so it's a quite big power up. Goku also goes from able to beat Boo to completely unwilling to face him, even with Vegeta's help:
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

Not to mention when Boo is first born, Goku is scared by his ki, that now is reaching the Other World:
Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292), P3.1
Goku: “…This is Majin Boo, right? This ki…what is it?...”

And Piccolo's behavior goes from calm to desperated about what he can do, implying despite before Gotenks being strong enough to deal with Fatso, Super Boo is too much.

I don't think Piccolo's "Everything is greater than before" statement implies Super is >> Fatso, since Piccolo does not uses any words to express quantity (Like "Much greater", or "Far greater").

Piccolo hoping for a miracle only implies the gap between Initial Super Boo and Fat Boo is even greater, as it implies Super Boo >> SSJ Gotenks (Expected Post Rosat) > SSJ Gotenks (Initial) > Fat Boo. The gap becomes even bigger when Piccolo and Trunks think Base Gotenks can deal with Boo (Implying Base Gotenks surpassed his SSJ self), yet SSJ3 was necessary to be competitive.

That makes little to no sense at all. Piccolo knows Goten and Trunks can go Ssj and fuse afterwards but he still suggested they needed training. Either way, Gotenks was still weaker than Fat Buu and he was treated troll-wise, but I think that's out of the issue. Either way Pre ROSAT Gotenks is fodder, that's exactly how he's been shown, and nothing he showed is anywhere close to what he was proclaimed to be. His speed feat was a show off he intended to do to "surprise" Piccolo.

Goku does say fusing as Super Saiyans is harder though:


Piccolo does seem unsure about the fusion being able to transform multiple times:






Notice how Piccolo uses the terms "Try" and "Attempt". He still showed doubts about being possible, probably because of Goku's statement.

The thing isn't about his speed demonstration, it's about Piccolo giving the ok to his Ki and only asking if his speed is on pair. Though Gotenks does says he's gonna take off and beat Boo, and Piccolo only calls him off because of time, not power like he did last time.

Piccolo wanted to have Gotenks train in the day he had left. Still, nothing shows Piccolo wasn't going to get him into the ROSAT, given Piccolo even said that he wanted them to train as much as possible in any way. In fact, the Anime showcases this better, where Piccolo is worried sick even after Gotenks goes Ssj before noticing Satan befriending Buu.

The fact he didn't even consider Rosat until Boo was stronger than ever and standing right in front of him implies otherwise. While the anime does show Piccolo worried, the manga has none of that and only shows the boys lounging around until Boo arrives.

I think it's better if you are, because you'd be more blunt on the matter and it would make it easier to express your thoughts, so don't mind it

I was actually refering to sounding rude, though it didn't sound as rude as i initally thought. I always try to be as blunt as possible.

Lol you absolutely misunderstood me. That wasn't the argument at all, and actually what you just interpreted seems far too distant from what I meant. I didn't say he wanted Gotenks to specifically train him in the ROSAT, but it was there as a possibility if regular training wasn't enough, and nothing says he isn't going to get there. Piccolo wanted Gotenks to train in general, regardless where (the possibility was open. It was never ruled out, and in the Manga Goku specifies that Gotenks might need it later, not necessarily in the distant future). The Manga shows nothing about This topic and never disagreed with my point at all. So yeah, you misinterpreted me, and what you just said is invalid then

There is a flaw on this logic though. By your logic Gotenks was still below Majin Vegeta, who couldn't even faze Boo. Even though minimals gains for fusers = huge gains for fusions, Boo is dimensions above Vegeta, so Rosat would be needed even if just by a few minutes on the normal world considering making any gains on a day is almost impossible.

Not to mention saying the Manga doesn't disagree with you means nothing. That's burden of proof for ya.

The Daizenshuu saying "Vegeta and the others" is trying to make a point, and I'm basically mentioning it by giving examples from the Series itself. At the very least, the entry quite clearly separates Vegeta and the "others", and is making it a point that Gotenks previously was inferior to Vegeta, and nothing says otherwise. No source states that Pre ROSAT Gotenks > Vegeta unless I'm messing it, but I haven't found anything in Dragon Ball Forever or Dragon Ball Densetsu. El Manga Legendario made it sound as if Gotenks surpassed Vegeta only Post ROSAT when he was Ssj or when he went Ssj3 and nothing more or less. Daizenshuu even mentions that Gotenks surpassed Vegeta in general while having Ssj3 Gotenks imprinted beside it.

I think even if Goku's predicitons were wrong, Gotenks being weaker than Majin Vegeta sounds like lowballing. Vegeta was powerless to a point not even killing himself did jack to Boo, while Gotenks was build up as the earth's new protector. Only Gotenks' hype was way higher than anything Vegeta showed. Gotenks did receive praizes when he was born, whereas Vegeta was utterly forgotten other than being a measure stick for Goku's power prior to SSJ3 being shown.

Gohan struggled to left it as Ssj/Ssj2 and needed so to even carry it and train on it. There's already an argument which is quite supported in which Base Goku Buu Saga > Ssj Gohan Pre Z Sword Training Buu Saga. Gotenks obviously is beyond Gohan Pre Z Sword Training Buu Saga, but not post, if he's stronger than Vegeta yet Pre ROSAT Gotenks is weaker than Vegeta.

I thought Gohan reverted to Base after removing the Sword? I'm gonna check it out. I've never seen any implication of Base Goku > SSJ Gohan, sounds like some needless bloating.

When Gotenks was born Gohan was already on the Elder Kaioshin ritual, so Gohan should be out of the comparison.

Goku here was trying to sense Gotenks's Ki. Goku can sense King Kai if he wants to:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Unlike Goku, Fat Buu, Super Buu, Ultimate Gohan and Kid Buu who their Ki made their way through such distances "accidentally" and made them sense it without the intention behind it.

He just says he can't sense it. It's not specified if he was actively trying or not.

Yes. No feat and Direct statement even showed this, and based on guides Vegeta > Gotenks. Nuff said

Gotenks in base form and Ssj form was never treated to be superior as in fact he was dealt with in a troll manner. Those statements are already clarified before by me earlier on

Gotenks himself, Kuririn and Yamcha thought Gotenks could've beaten Boo even thought Trunks and Kuririn saw how badly Vegeta got bent over by Boo. Piccolo himself is smarter and does know Boo is out of Gotenks' league, but he still says Gotenks is incredible. There's the statement.

After fighting Boo, Gotenks was able to survive and come back joking about his defeat while Vegeta was crippled and was going to die had the kids not saved him. There's the feat.

I don't think the scene being a joke means much. Gotenks' whole character is supposed to be a joke.

When a power is too great for you to fathom, you wouldn't be able to ordinarily scalr that power. An example is when King Kai sensed Namek Saga Goku, he states that he senses no limit from him. While that doesn't have to be taken literally, this does show that it's too great in comparison to king kai. Similar to what's been shown in DBS ToP arc. Piccolo's power saying Goku's Power Is beyond his imagination means he couldn't properly scale It, otherwise he wouldn't have to ask. So your point doesn't stand really

When? I'm checking the strength checker and Kaio never says he can't sense a limit. Not to mention he can be talking about how Goku is always surpassing limits.

Kuririn was able to tell Trunks was holding back a power greater than Cell's and Korin could tell Cell was too much for Goku, so that point is more like a misunderstanding.

Regular Super Saiyan Transformations are strainful on the body, so they cannot stay for long in that transformation. Mastered Super Saiyan makes you capable of staying in that form as if it is your base form:

[spoiler]Daizenshuu 10:



Super Saiya-jin
Super Saiya-jin’s biggest distinguishing characteristics are the golden hair that stands up straight, and the green pupils. Also, because they are in a continuous lightly agitated state, their personality also becomes wild. This type is the first grade of Super Saiya-jin, and can be called the base for all Super Saiya-jins.

While Mastered Super Saiyan is this:

Variations
Grades 2-3 are powered up versions of the Grade 1, which Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks have the ability to transform into. Full Power time is a type where they are able to unconsciously exist in the Super Saiya-jin state, and even the wildness of their personality vanishes. Only Goku and Gohan can transform into this.

It says nothing about Holding back power. It's only about existing in it as if you aren't even transformed and your maiciousness disappears.

A good catch on what Ssj does:

Dragon Ball Super:

[spoiler][/spoiler][/spoiler]

So it isn't about Holding back. The "ordinary level" means as if it is their base forms. Their everyday ordinary level is base forms, and Ssj makes you strained if stayed too long and has a wild personality flowing through the Character. MSsj simply removes the strain. [/spoiler]

This breaks your point completely.


The benefits of mastering Ssj removes the strain from one's own Body, accesses all the power of a Ssj so it increases one's power more than a regular Super Saiyan, and the wild personality flowing within you vanishes completely. Nothing says it has anything to do with holding back, as that would beat the point of removing the strain and wild personality of a character. That's a speculative point you made here

Notice i bold the world "Level." They are on a ordinary level. I think if Piccolo was talking about how it feels then he'd say something like "They've trained so that they can exist in that state in a ordinary, everyday way" or "feeling". The world "Level" is a reference to their level of power.

Not to mention Vegeta is the one who mentions the way their ki feels calm and natural, what would make his line pointless if he was just repeating what Piccolo said a panel ago.

Piccolo was surprised that both Goku and Gohan are talking and enjoying their time while still be Super Saiyans which is a strainful form that requires the burning of Ki continuously. The scans I cited shows characters as Ssj not being at full power and were holding back. Nothing suggests it's about effort

Piccolo being impressed they are on a everyday level does.

No to mention that if they're not constantly burning Ki like you said, then they're not putting out Ki. Once Goku starts putting out all of his power against Cell the strain of fighting affects him and he wastes so much stamina that he's faring worse than Piccolo against Cell Jrs.

Serious could also refer to holding back as Well, so you're simply cherrypicking now. Unlike your point, my point can be much more supported. When Goku goes Ssj, Yamcha concludes that it's an amazing Ki, and that's without even fighting yet which means Goku can make it go even HIGHER. This is a proof of suppression:

Chapter: 334 (DBZ 140), P7.3
Context: seeing Super Saiyan Goku
Yamcha: “Wh…what ki…and he’s not even fighting…”

Goku's power could go even HIGHER than that.

Goku could control how much energy he uses as a Super Saiyan:

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P8.4-5, P9.
Piccolo: “Have you noticed too, Gohan?...”
Gohan: “Y-yes…”
Piccolo: “Son Goku is rushing the match for some reason…He’s already putting out close to his full power…But even so, what’s with that miserable condition of his?...”

1) Implies Goku could have used less than full power; proof of suppression

2) Mentioning full power is unneeded if it was about effort. They would have said something along the meaning of "he's already putting as much effort as possible".

Not sure why it's cherry picking when i brought the possibility instead of calling it a fact. I said it could be effort, not that it is about effort.

Yamcha's line is more about how your Ki is different while standing and while fighting. You know, that statement is the most used to show standing ki =/= fighting ki.

Piccolo's statement seems more like it's poorly worded, considering on the same statement he says Goku's power should be way more impressive:
Piccolo: “It’s not that. As a Super Saiyan, Goku’s power should be more stupendous than this…”

Frieza quite clearly injured him, and hurt him based on the aftermath. But Frieza Goku's full power and as soon as Goku powers up, Frieza fails to even push Goku a bit despite Frieza pushing him prior to that without using his full power.

You mean the blood behind his shirt? I don't think that means much. Cell's headbutt made Gohan bleed badly even though it didn't hurt him at all.

Freeza never tried to fire a Kiai on a off guard Goku after he went full power, so of course he wouldn't push him like that again. He did push him back my several feet by the end of the fight though:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

No, this also means that Goku could beat him if he went full power or close to That, which means he was holding back. The entire idea of "holding back" is far more supported than your idea of "effort" and The case about Mastered Super Saiyan has zero relevance to this issue. Goku being able to beat Fat Buu if he wanted, while Originally it was thought that he couldn't. If their powers were really close then Goku can't be certain because Buu' versatility and unpredictability in techniques and all exceed Goku by far, which puts Goku at a disadvantage unless Goku is far beyond him

That's where my point about Goku charging a Kamehameha big enough to kill Boo that you countered below enters. I'm gonna counter that one now.

The "Full power" point was absolutely different. Goku needs at least 1 minute to charge his full power and no one was there to help Goku against Fat Buu, but he says he could beat him. The "Charging up to full power" is similar to Piccolo using the Makankosappo which pushes his power up to his limits. Goku is weaker than Kid Buu:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Kid Buu wasn't even serious against Goku the whole time. Goku even underestimated Kid Buu, he thought the spirit bomb without his own power could beat Buu but was wrong.

Goku was fighting full power from the start:
Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P11.4-6
Context: as Goku prepares to fight Boo
Goku: “Alrii~~iight. I’d better go all out right from the start…! If we get done in, then the entire universe will go ‘poof’…”

So the gathering ki is more about charging the Kamehameha, like you said it's a parallel to Piccolo charging his Special Beam Cannon on Raditz. Goku having no one to distract Fat Boo is irrelevant, nobody distracted Cell and Goku still had an opening to charge and fire the Kamehameha. Pure Boo would not allow him to have an opening as he was constantly attacking him like a wild animal. Not to mention SSJ3 isn't as taxing on a dead body as it is on a living one.

Goku couldn't beat Boo because of his regeneration, he even admits so:
Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P12.1
Context: after Goku fights pure Boo for awhile
Goku: “…Dammit…! Like I thought, even if I keep doing the same thing, that bastard’s stamina doesn’t fall…! He just returns to being good as new right away…”

It was stated the Spirit Bomb didn't kill him because Goku had no energy to launch it properly. It is more about them forgetting this as Vegeta says than understimating Boo:
Chapter: 516 (DBZ 322), P8.2
Context: as Boo stops the Genki-Dama
Vegeta: “I didn’t pla-plan on this…! Kakarot doesn’t have the sta-stamina to fire that all-important Genki-Dama…!”

More like Gotenks is wanked. No one implies Pre ROSAT Gotenks > Goku but the opposite, while it is debatable if it is Post ROSAT Gotenks

Super Buu is surprised of Goku and thinks he's an amazing character while disregards Base Gotenks and Ssj Gotenks Post ROSAT. Only Ssj3 Gotenks is arguable:

[spoiler]


This places Goku beyond Ssj3 Gotenks who was credited far less than Goku. He believes Goku is more entertaining[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

Quite the difference[/spoiler]

In conclusion: Gotenks is wanked

More like talking about the evidence. All the statements about Gotenks are there, if you're gonna take them literally or ignore them to go with the anime it's another issue.

[Asura]

Caulifla vs Gohan

Gohan stomps as he’s near Blue tier while Caulifla was getting casually stomped by SSJG.

Oops I must have been tired last night, meant to say Kale.

[Helios518]

Caulifla vs Gohan

Gohan stomps as he’s near Blue tier while Caulifla was getting casually stomped by SSJG.

Oops I must have been tired last night, meant to say Kale.

It's cool. Though, the winner still is the same. Kale was losing to stamina ridden SSJG and Gohan is still comparable to SSJB.

[Asura]

Gohan stomps as he’s near Blue tier while Caulifla was getting casually stomped by SSJG.

Oops I must have been tired last night, meant to say Kale.

It's cool. Though, the winner still is the same. Kale was losing to stamina ridden SSJG and Gohan is still comparable to SSJB.

Actually it seemed like Kale was holding her own against SSJG, Caulifla was getting destroyed every time she tried to come in to the fight though. Plus we have that scene of Kale walking straight through SSB Goku's Kamehameha. Although the scene was very obviously just done for fanservice reasons, it still fucks up the scale of power. Is Gohan really comparable to SSB though? He was holding back in SSB form in his fight against Gohan, Gohan even says so himself. When Goku went Kaioken it was over in one shot.

[Helios518]

Oops I must have been tired last night, meant to say Kale.

It's cool. Though, the winner still is the same. Kale was losing to stamina ridden SSJG and Gohan is still comparable to SSJB.

1) Actually it seemed like Kale was holding her own against SSJG, Caulifla was getting destroyed every time she tried to come in to the fight though. Plus we have that scene of Kale walking straight through SSB Goku's Kamehameha. Although the scene was very obviously just done for fanservice reasons, it still fucks up the scale of power. 2) Is Gohan really comparable to SSB though? He was holding back in SSB form in his fight against Gohan, Gohan even says so himself. When Goku went Kaioken it was over in one shot.

1) I didn't say Kale was getting stomped by SSJG, I said she was "losing" but I still argue she was getting dominated considering SSJG swam through her attack.

2) Against Kociarator, Gohan overpowered an attack that stopped 1 stamina ridden SSJB + a full power SSJB's attacks. We know that charged attacks like what Gohan did are usually 2 or 3x stronger than the user. So even if I was low balling, Gohan is probably still in the mid to high percentages of SSJB.

[jeffbr92]

Paikuhan vs. EoZ Piccolo (No Super stuff included)

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Paikuhan vs. EoZ Piccolo (No Super stuff included)

Considering Piccolo has settled down i think there's no reason to assume he improved greatly since Cell Games, so Paikuhan finger clicks.

[Dragon Ball Gus]

All right, time for another hypothetical question. Now the next one after this will be non Saiyan related, but I'm not asking that right now. What I'm asking is, how strong would Caulifla and Kale be if they achieved Super Saiyan Blue? And who would be the strongest person they would defeat? First, start with Caulifla and talk about how strong she would be, then talk about Kale, and as a bonus, talk about how strong Kefla would be as a SSB.

[dragonball0900]

Paikuhan vs. EoZ Piccolo (No Super stuff included)

The problem is that we don't know how strong Piccolo is at this time. I assume though that everyone at least doubled their power during the 10 year gap. So I have this Piccolo at MSSJ Gohan (Cell Games) level. He looses badly against Pikkon, who is around MSSJ Kaioken X2 Goku (Cell Games).

[Berserker1921]

New battles

1. Jiren (Full Power/Current) vs Ssj2 Kefla, Hit, LB Vegeta, and SsjR Black (the team is working together)?

2. SsjRage Trunks vs Toppo (no destruction form)?

3. Burter vs Dyspo (same power levels)?

4. Ssjblue Vegito (Black) vs God Toppo?

5. Darbura vs 1st form Frost (U6)?

[Helios518]

All right, time for another hypothetical question. Now the next one after this will be non Saiyan related, but I'm not asking that right now. What I'm asking is, how strong would Caulifla and Kale be if they achieved Super Saiyan Blue? And who would be the strongest person they would defeat? First, start with Caulifla and talk about how strong she would be, then talk about Kale, and as a bonus, talk about how strong Kefla would be as a SSB.

SSJB Kale and SSJB Caulifa are each likely in the double digit percentages of SSJB Goku. Kafla is the same but with Vegetto, maybe less because they don’t have the rival boost.

New battles

1. Jiren (Full Power/Current) vs Ssj2 Kefla, Hit, LB Vegeta, and SsjR Black (the team is working together)?

2. SsjRage Trunks vs Toppo (no destruction form)?

3. Burter vs Dyspo (same power levels)?

4. Ssjblue Vegito (Black) vs God Toppo?

5. Darbura vs 1st form Frost (U6)?

1. Geran roflstomps the opposing team considering he can casually stop the SSJBKKx20 Genki Dama while still “being far from his limit”.

2. Toppo is on the level of current SSJBKK at least. While SSJRage Trunks is weaker than current SSJBlue. Toppo wins.

3. Dyspo. Dyspo actually has techniques for his speed unlike Butta.

5. Frost in his first form is still comparable albeit a good bit weaker than a Goku who’s base form is much stronger than Piccolo. Frost likely wins.

[Zamasu55]

New battles

1. Jiren (Full Power/Current) vs Ssj2 Kefla, Hit, LB Vegeta, and SsjR Black (the team is working together)?

2. SsjRage Trunks vs Toppo (no destruction form)?

3. Burter vs Dyspo (same power levels)?

4. Ssjblue Vegito (Black) vs God Toppo?

5. Darbura vs 1st form Frost (U6)?

- Jiren with mid difficulty. Hit and Black are worthless tho.
- Hard one. I'm going with Toppo.
- Dyspo, better techniques.
- Toppo one-shots. Vegito was already surpassed by ep. 110 Jiren. He's nothing special at this point.
- Probably Dabura.

[kn83]

Paikuhan vs. EoZ Piccolo (No Super stuff included)

Considering Piccolo has settled down i think there's no reason to assume he improved greatly since Cell Games, so Paikuhan finger clicks.

Actually, Piccolo is confirmed to keep training even in times of peace according to Toriyama.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... yama-2013/

So logically Piccolo should be much stronger after each arc. So Piccolo stomps Pikkon.

[kn83]

- Toppo one-shots. Vegito was already surpassed by ep. 110 Jiren. He's nothing special at this point.

No way in hell is this true lol. God Toppo at best is SSB KKx20 level judging by his lost to SSBE Vegeta. Unless you think Potara fusion is only a 20x boost (which is clearly false), Vegito Blue should stomp everyone except Jiren and UI Goku in the ToP.

[kn83]

Paikuhan vs. EoZ Piccolo (No Super stuff included)

The problem is that we don't know how strong Piccolo is at this time. I assume though that everyone at least doubled their power during the 10 year gap. So I have this Piccolo at MSSJ Gohan (Cell Games) level. He looses badly against Pikkon, who is around MSSJ Kaioken X2 Goku (Cell Games).

Do you seriously believe Piccolo can't even beat a Cell jr at this time lol? Why do so many people downplay Piccolo? I could easily see him being above normal Perfect Cell in the Buu arc alone, its not lik he's never made crazy gains before.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Actually, Piccolo is confirmed to keep training even in times of peace according to Toriyama.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... yama-2013/

So logically Piccolo should be much stronger after each arc. So Piccolo stomps Pikkon.

Training doesn't mean huge gains, it could be just maintance training. Not to mention he would need some feats or statements to imply he made such huge gains, which he lacks.

[kn83]

All right, time for another hypothetical question. Now the next one after this will be non Saiyan related, but I'm not asking that right now. What I'm asking is, how strong would Caulifla and Kale be if they achieved Super Saiyan Blue? And who would be the strongest person they would defeat? First, start with Caulifla and talk about how strong she would be, then talk about Kale, and as a bonus, talk about how strong Kefla would be as a SSB.

Kale and Caulifla would be alittle better than Goku and Vegeta were in the Champa arc if they got SSB. SSB Kelfa would be somewhat weaker than Vegito Blue but much stronger than full powered Merged Zamasu. It wouldn't really change much powerscaling wise however, since LSSJ2 Kefla is already the 3rd strongest combatant in the ToP.