As we say our final goodbyes to the prince, what do you think will IGNITE prodigious Son Goku?

[TBMx]

A Gary Stu makes a mockery of the rules of the setting. Goku invents new rules and logik as he goes along. Vegeta not so much. Goku recovering from fighting for instance. If he could do that he would recover from fighting the Cell Jr after Cell. See a writer who's writing an actual character would pay attention to that - continuity-, but a writer who's creating a Gary Stu and a mere plot device will not care.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Goku isn't prodigious. He's just a Gary Stu. Learning and mastering Ultra Instinct in 20 minutes isn't something that can be taken seriously. Some people like to bring up Goku learning Kamehameha instantly, but forget that was a gag. It was played as a joke.

Goku learning the Kamehameha instantly wasn't played for laughs even back then. It was treated a big deal considering how long it took Roshi to learn and master the technique. Are we also going to ignore the fact that Goku picked Solar Flare technique after having it just used twice on him? And are we going to call Vegeta a "Gary Stu" for being able to learn the ability of sensing Ki despite not being taught it and only witnessing the ability once?

That and Vegeta in general checks a lot of Mary Sue boxes:

Prince of a warrior race and one of the last of his kind: Check

Was called the strongest Saiyan who surpassed his dad even as a child and no Saiyan was even closed to him, including Goku after he was trained by a god: Check

Learned to sense ki just by knowing it exist when it took the rest of the cast training with god to learn it: Check

Learned to suppressed his energy just by obsessing when it took everyone else training with god: Check

Bodied almost everyone on Namek thanks to the Saiyans ability to grow stronger from near death: Check

Reached Legendary Super Saiyan despite it being stating previously that you needed a pure heart to get it: Check

Got god ki just by training hard and skipped an entire form when Goku had to go through a ritual and made a big deal about it being a power he couldn't reach on his own: Check

Did better against Jiren then Blue Kaioken x20 and UI Omen just by observing: Check

Got a new transforming because he 'willed it to happened': Check

Took out a God of Destruction by getting a 'pride boost' and he using a self-destruct technique that doesn't kill him anyone and still have the stamina to keep on fighting: Check

Vegeta did not fight better against Jiren than Goku. Vegeta himself said that Jiren was using more power before. This made that kick useless on EP 122

[HeroR]

Goku learning the Kamehameha instantly wasn't played for laughs even back then. It was treated a big deal considering how long it took Roshi to learn and master the technique. Are we also going to ignore the fact that Goku picked Solar Flare technique after having it just used twice on him? And are we going to call Vegeta a "Gary Stu" for being able to learn the ability of sensing Ki despite not being taught it and only witnessing the ability once?

That and Vegeta in general checks a lot of Mary Sue boxes:

Prince of a warrior race and one of the last of his kind: Check

Was called the strongest Saiyan who surpassed his dad even as a child and no Saiyan was even closed to him, including Goku after he was trained by a god: Check

Learned to sense ki just by knowing it exist when it took the rest of the cast training with god to learn it: Check

Learned to suppressed his energy just by obsessing when it took everyone else training with god: Check

Bodied almost everyone on Namek thanks to the Saiyans ability to grow stronger from near death: Check

Reached Legendary Super Saiyan despite it being stating previously that you needed a pure heart to get it: Check

Got god ki just by training hard and skipped an entire form when Goku had to go through a ritual and made a big deal about it being a power he couldn't reach on his own: Check

Did better against Jiren then Blue Kaioken x20 and UI Omen just by observing: Check

Got a new transforming because he 'willed it to happened': Check

Took out a God of Destruction by getting a 'pride boost' and he using a self-destruct technique that doesn't kill him anyone and still have the stamina to keep on fighting: Check

Vegeta did not fight better against Jiren than Goku. Vegeta himself said that Jiren was using more power before. This made that kick useless on EP 122

The show also left it vague if they meant Blue Kaioken x20 or UI Omen. Personally, yes I think he meant Blue Kaioken, but you have fans you think Vegeta in just Blue is vastly stronger than Blue Kaioken x20 based entirely on 122.

[Lord Beerus]

Goku isn't prodigious. He's just a Gary Stu. Learning and mastering Ultra Instinct in 20 minutes isn't something that can be taken seriously. Some people like to bring up Goku learning Kamehameha instantly, but forget that was a gag. It was played as a joke.

Goku learning the Kamehameha instantly wasn't played for laughs even back then. It was treated a big deal considering how long it took Roshi to learn and master the technique. Are we also going to ignore the fact that Goku picked Solar Flare technique after having it just used twice on him? And are we going to call Vegeta a "Gary Stu" for being able to learn the ability of sensing Ki despite not being taught it and only witnessing the ability once?

Original Dragonball was a gag manga. Whereas were supposed to take the ToP finals seriously.

Vegeta will be a Gary Stu when he can learn and master Ultra Instinct in twenty minutes.

What does that even mean? Yes, Dragon Ball had very outlandish gags scattered across the story, especially in the first arc or two, but I wouldn't classify the whole manga as a gag manga, or even the portion of Dragon Ball prior to the Saiyan arc.

A Gary Stu makes a mockery of the rules of the setting. Goku invents new rules and logik as he goes along. Vegeta not so much. Goku recovering from fighting for instance. If he could do that he would recover from fighting the Cell Jr after Cell. See a writer who's writing an actual character would pay attention to that - continuity-, but a writer who's creating a Gary Stu and a mere plot device will not care.

Any rules that Dragon Ball create end up being broken but many characters in the cast. It's not just down to what Goku does.

[HeroR]

Goku learning the Kamehameha instantly wasn't played for laughs even back then. It was treated a big deal considering how long it took Roshi to learn and master the technique. Are we also going to ignore the fact that Goku picked Solar Flare technique after having it just used twice on him? And are we going to call Vegeta a "Gary Stu" for being able to learn the ability of sensing Ki despite not being taught it and only witnessing the ability once?

Original Dragonball was a gag manga. Whereas were supposed to take the ToP finals seriously.

Vegeta will be a Gary Stu when he can learn and master Ultra Instinct in twenty minutes.

What does that even mean? Yes, Dragon Ball had very outlandish gags scattered across the story, especially in the first arc or two, but I wouldn't classify the whole manga as a gag manga, or even the portion of Dragon Ball prior to the Saiyan arc.

Also, the 'Z' portion is part of the original manga since it's all Dragon Ball. So that would mean everything from the manga is a gag.

[dario03]

I'm still hoping for a curve ball and we get Jiren or Freeza winning. Or a double knockout or knockouts with a DQ causing there to be no winner.

[Kinokima]

Goku is definitely not a Gary Stu but the fact that someone is actually arguing that Vegeta is more of a Gary Stu. I am laughing so hard right now.

People’s obvious bias against a character is so ridiculous.


Yes as one of the main characters Vegeta definitely gets things like power ups for plot convenience. Goku gets them way more because he is THE main character. That’s natural. Pretty much every story has plot contrivances at times. And Vegeta’s power up is not any more contrived then Goku getting and then mastering UI in less than 48 minutes.

Vegeta’s new form is just an advanced form of Blue which he has been using for how long now? And how much has he been training? Just as much as Goku and he has also been fighting strong enemies. But Goku’s new form is logical but not Vegeta’s? Even if he willed the power up to happen it’s not like it came from nowhere. The only positive I can say for Goku’s form is it was foreshadowed beforehand. But that doesn’t mean how Goku got it was any less contrived than how Vegeta got his.

Anyway I don’t really care that people call Vegeta’s new form contrived as long as you say the same for Goku’s. They both are. But some plot contrivance in a story is not necessarily a bad thing.

And being the prince of a dead race does not make Vegeta a Gary Stu. It’s like people do not even know the meaning of the term. lol


And just to defend Goku a bit more learning techniques quickly is par for the course in these type of stories. Like I said it’s more about plot contrivance but all stories have them to a point. Sometimes you just need to learn to suspend your disbelief. I would argue that Goku being a prodigy is a good enough explanation for him getting and mastering UI so quickly. Because he is and nothing in the story contradicts that. I would have preferred if it took him more time to master it but it certainly doesn’t make him a Gary Stu.

[TheSaiyanGod]

That and Vegeta in general checks a lot of Mary Sue boxes:

Prince of a warrior race and one of the last of his kind: Check

Was called the strongest Saiyan who surpassed his dad even as a child and no Saiyan was even closed to him, including Goku after he was trained by a god: Check

Learned to sense ki just by knowing it exist when it took the rest of the cast training with god to learn it: Check

Learned to suppressed his energy just by obsessing when it took everyone else training with god: Check

Bodied almost everyone on Namek thanks to the Saiyans ability to grow stronger from near death: Check

Reached Legendary Super Saiyan despite it being stating previously that you needed a pure heart to get it: Check

Got god ki just by training hard and skipped an entire form when Goku had to go through a ritual and made a big deal about it being a power he couldn't reach on his own: Check

Did better against Jiren then Blue Kaioken x20 and UI Omen just by observing: Check

Got a new transforming because he 'willed it to happened': Check

Took out a God of Destruction by getting a 'pride boost' and he using a self-destruct technique that doesn't kill him anyone and still have the stamina to keep on fighting: Check

Vegeta did not fight better against Jiren than Goku. Vegeta himself said that Jiren was using more power before. This made that kick useless on EP 122

The show also left it vague if they meant Blue Kaioken x20 or UI Omen. Personally, yes I think he meant Blue Kaioken, but you have fans you think Vegeta in just Blue is vastly stronger than Blue Kaioken x20 based entirely on 122.

Jiren used the same amount of power against Goku SSB, SSB KK x20 and UI.
we only know that with this power, he was able to dominate Goku and rival the UI.

But we can't exactly know the level of Jiren using less power than that, but he would have to be far more suppressed to fight with a lower power than Vegeta SSB (which I don't believe happened)

[Zephyr]

A male version of a Mary Sue. seemingly perfect character with no flaws, or who always overpowers other characters.

A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character.

I'm not sure why anyone's arguing that either of the big main Saiyan characters are "Gary Stus". They both have absurd personality flaws. Those flaws are literally what drives a good lot of the story forward to begin with. But then I'm sure there are other criteria that might matter too for some people.

You guys could always just use real words to express your opinions, and say that you're dissatisfied with how talented they are, rather than spending pages failing to agree on who warrants being labelled with a completely vapid buzzword.

[Dbzfan94]

Goku isn't prodigious. He's just a Gary Stu. Learning and mastering Ultra Instinct in 20 minutes isn't something that can be taken seriously. Some people like to bring up Goku learning Kamehameha instantly, but forget that was a gag. It was played as a joke.

Goku learning the Kamehameha instantly wasn't played for laughs even back then. It was treated a big deal considering how long it took Roshi to learn and master the technique. Are we also going to ignore the fact that Goku picked Solar Flare technique after having it just used twice on him? And are we going to call Vegeta a "Gary Stu" for being able to learn the ability of sensing Ki despite not being taught it and only witnessing the ability once?

To be fair saying Vegeta only saw ki sensing once isn’t really true. The entire fight with the Z Fighters is hardly “once” when they were doing it constantly.

[Lord Beerus]

Goku isn't prodigious. He's just a Gary Stu. Learning and mastering Ultra Instinct in 20 minutes isn't something that can be taken seriously. Some people like to bring up Goku learning Kamehameha instantly, but forget that was a gag. It was played as a joke.

Goku learning the Kamehameha instantly wasn't played for laughs even back then. It was treated a big deal considering how long it took Roshi to learn and master the technique. Are we also going to ignore the fact that Goku picked Solar Flare technique after having it just used twice on him? And are we going to call Vegeta a "Gary Stu" for being able to learn the ability of sensing Ki despite not being taught it and only witnessing the ability once?

To be fair saying Vegeta only saw ki sensing once isn’t really true. The entire fight with the Z Fighters is hardly “once” when they were doing it constantly.

And how would have Vegeta have known when they were sensing energy?

[Dbzfan94]

Goku learning the Kamehameha instantly wasn't played for laughs even back then. It was treated a big deal considering how long it took Roshi to learn and master the technique. Are we also going to ignore the fact that Goku picked Solar Flare technique after having it just used twice on him? And are we going to call Vegeta a "Gary Stu" for being able to learn the ability of sensing Ki despite not being taught it and only witnessing the ability once?

To be fair saying Vegeta only saw ki sensing once isn’t really true. The entire fight with the Z Fighters is hardly “once” when they were doing it constantly.

And how would have Vegeta have known when they were sensing energy?

By watching them?

[dario03]

To be fair saying Vegeta only saw ki sensing once isn’t really true. The entire fight with the Z Fighters is hardly “once” when they were doing it constantly.

And how would have Vegeta have known when they were sensing energy?

By watching them?

Yeah, but how did he figure out how to do it, just by looking at them?
People that can sense ki being able to learn moves quick makes some sense to me. Basically, oh I just concentrate my energy this way. Being able to sense ki would greatly help with that.
But learning to sense ki seems like something you would need to be taught, or at least maybe work at. Or you would think it was just something everybody with ki control could do.
Its all odd, but I always found Vegeta's instant learning of ki sensing or really anybody without ki sensing instantly learning a ki move more odd.

[Dbzfan94]

And how would have Vegeta have known when they were sensing energy?

By watching them?

Yeah, but how did he figure out how to do it, just by looking at them?
People that can sense ki being able to learn moves quick makes some sense to me. Basically, oh I just concentrate my energy this way. Being able to sense ki would greatly help with that.
But learning to sense ki seems like something you would need to be taught, or at least maybe work at. Or you would think it was just something everybody with ki control could do.
Its all odd, but I always found Vegeta's instant learning of ki sensing or really anybody without ki sensing instantly learning a ki move more odd.

I mean yeah but I'm saying that he sees them do it over and over. Like, ok I see what they're doing, let me try. Piccolo explained to Gohan how to do it, and Kid Gohan learned in about ten seconds while everyone was watching Yamcha fight the Saibaman. ANd Vegeta was standing not even 30 feet away from Piccolo while he explained it.Saiyans are born fighters, and even guys like Piccolo admit he's a fighting genius. I dont see why it's so outlandish that he learned it

[dario03]

By watching them?

Yeah, but how did he figure out how to do it, just by looking at them?
People that can sense ki being able to learn moves quick makes some sense to me. Basically, oh I just concentrate my energy this way. Being able to sense ki would greatly help with that.
But learning to sense ki seems like something you would need to be taught, or at least maybe work at. Or you would think it was just something everybody with ki control could do.
Its all odd, but I always found Vegeta's instant learning of ki sensing or really anybody without ki sensing instantly learning a ki move more odd.

I mean yeah but I'm saying that he sees them do it over and over. Like, ok I see what they're doing, let me try. Piccolo explained to Gohan how to do it, and Kid Gohan learned in about ten seconds while everyone was watching Yamcha fight the Saibaman. ANd Vegeta was standing not even 30 feet away from Piccolo while he explained it.Saiyans are born fighters, and even guys like Piccolo admit he's a fighting genius. I dont see why it's so outlandish that he learned it

Him specifically isn't, its just a good example. I find it odd that anybody can pick it up so fast but yet doesn't just figure it out on their own. Seems like something that should be hard, or everybody should learn it once they figure out ki control.

[Mercenary]

[spoiler]Looks like we will say our final goodbyes to prodigious Son Goku as well, but I guess you wouldn't expect prodigious Son Goku to end like that [/spoiler]

[Saturnine]

[spoiler]Looks like we will say our final goodbyes to prodigious Son Goku as well, but I guess you wouldn't expect prodigious Son Goku to end like that [/spoiler]

Yeah. Not saying I'm amazingly thrilled about this outcome, but I'd still want to see ZenkaiBoosts' face right now, just for the way he was acting

None too happy now, eh bro?

[ZenkaiBoosts]

[spoiler]Looks like we will say our final goodbyes to prodigious Son Goku as well, but I guess you wouldn't expect prodigious Son Goku to end like that [/spoiler]

You were just waiting for that weren't you lol. You are still salty about Vegeta getting eliminated aren't you? Let it go lol

[Mercenary]

[spoiler]Looks like we will say our final goodbyes to prodigious Son Goku as well, but I guess you wouldn't expect prodigious Son Goku to end like that [/spoiler]

Yeah. Not saying I'm amazingly thrilled about this outcome, but I'd still want to see ZenkaiBoosts' face right now, just for the way he was acting

None too happy now, eh bro?

[spoiler]ZenkaiBoost awakened some Goku dislike instinct inside of me.

When he was mocking Vegeta and pretending to actually be unbiased, not to mention his condescending behavior while talking about Vegeta's performance.......I was quitely cheering for Jiren to pull out a victory, and here you are .[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Looks like we will say our final goodbyes to prodigious Son Goku as well, but I guess you wouldn't expect prodigious Son Goku to end like that [/spoiler]

You were just waiting for that weren't you lol. You are still salty about Vegeta getting eliminated aren't you? Let it go lol

Not as salty as you, when you've seen the latest spoilers, mate .

[ZenkaiBoosts]

[spoiler]Looks like we will say our final goodbyes to prodigious Son Goku as well, but I guess you wouldn't expect prodigious Son Goku to end like that [/spoiler]

Yeah. Not saying I'm amazingly thrilled about this outcome, but I'd still want to see ZenkaiBoosts' face right now, just for the way he was acting

None too happy now, eh bro?

How was I acting? This is not accurate.

Anyway, believe me. I'm ok: ) Its just an anime. I dont care. If I don't like the ending, I'm simply going to move on. I dont even plan to watch 130 and 131. I'm not going to watch something I'm no longer interested in. You will get a picture of me smiling: )