"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Dbzfan94]

https://mobile.twitter.com/DB__ZGTKAISU ... 84/photo/4
Back cover vol.5 dbs

It was only a matter of time before kid trunks surpassed the level of the gods

Jokes aside, in surprised goten wasn’t included. Would have gone from good to great if they were both there.

Yeah s a Goten fan it makes me sad how forgotten he was.

[mahakaishin1991]

I’m positive G.o.D toppo is going to be a thing in the manga. That’s a very special key point in the series, as it involves facing an actual hakaishin. So that should be expected

It wouldnt suprise me if he looks different though, and the personality shift was horribly handled and jarring

Yeah, I'm hoping that stuff is handled better in the manga.

On paper, the idea of Toppo eschewing his morality for pure strength is, like many of the ideas in Super, actually thematically interesting.

THE PROBLEM, again like most of Super, is that the execution is done so fucking poorly. So yeah, I really hope that Manga develops that moment so it feels like an inevitable part of Toppo's character arc, rather than something that's done so that Vegeta can get a win.

Yeah I mean he gets hit really hard, so hard, he loses his powerlifter gut, his sense of justice and anything resembling what made him entertaining in short burts

[mahakaishin1991]

THE PROBLEM, again like most of Super, is that the execution is done so fucking poorly.

GoD Toppo was fine in his debut. Then the following episode's new writer ruined him like he did U4.

Sorry but no. His sudden personality shift was ass and terrible

[jeffbr92]

https://mobile.twitter.com/DB__ZGTKAISU ... 84/photo/4
Back cover vol.5 dbs

That is pretty fantastic, though I think it could be better with Goten in there somewhere.

Sorta, I don't like much how Toyotaro tends to repeats pose.

[JazzMazz]

THE PROBLEM, again like most of Super, is that the execution is done so fucking poorly.

GoD Toppo was fine in his debut. Then the following episode's new writer ruined him like he did U4.

Sorry but no. His sudden personality shift was ass and terrible

I thought it was at least well founded if a little sudden.

I will say though, that any sense of scale GoD Toppo had to him was immediately shafted the following episode.

[Amir]

THE PROBLEM, again like most of Super, is that the execution is done so fucking poorly.

GoD Toppo was fine in his debut. Then the following episode's new writer ruined him like he did U4.

Sorry but no. His sudden personality shift was ass and terrible

But why?

[kemuri07]

GoD Toppo was fine in his debut. Then the following episode's new writer ruined him like he did U4.

Sorry but no. His sudden personality shift was ass and terrible

I thought it was at least well founded if a little sudden.

I will say though, that any sense of scale GoD Toppo had to him was immediately shafted the following episode.

well yeah, cause the show's writers decided that Vegeta needed a win so they completely nerfed Toppo.

GoD Toppo was fine in his debut. Then the following episode's new writer ruined him like he did U4.

Sorry but no. His sudden personality shift was ass and terrible

But why?

Because it comes out of fucking nowhere. Again, the issue is the execution on a potentially interesting idea. As it is, Toppo becoming G.O.D. is a thing that sorta just happens.

This all leads back to the single defining issue with this entire arc: there's no real tension. And that's largely due to Super's outright refusal to dive into how fucked up that Goku is the main reason this is all happening. a better show would have focused on the desperation of its characters since they're facing outright oblivion. There is no coming back from that. So a Toppo that's desperate, a Toppo that sees the writing on the wall and makes an impulsive decision, that's something that would have made his transformation have emotional weight.


But this is Super we're talking about, so maybe I'm asking too much of it.

[Lord Beerus]

Sorry but no. His sudden personality shift was ass and terrible

But why?

Because it comes out of fucking nowhere. Again, the issue is the execution on a potentially interesting idea. As it is, Toppo becoming G.O.D. is a thing that sorta just happens.

This all leads back to the single defining issue with this entire arc: there's no real tension. And that's largely due to Super's outright refusal to dive into how fucked up that Goku is the main reason this is all happening. a better show would have focused on the desperation of its characters since they're facing outright oblivion. There is no coming back from that. So a Toppo that's desperate, a Toppo that sees the writing on the wall and makes an impulsive decision, that's something that would have made his transformation have emotional weight.


But this is Super we're talking about, so maybe I'm asking too much of it.

Toppo's shift in personality wasn't out of anywhere at all. Several episodes prior to becoming a Hakaishin, Toppo mindset had already changed from upholding his values of justice" to simply doing what was necessary to survive following how many Pride Troopers had be lost. And even prior to this whole tournament starting, there was the strong indication that Toppo felt like he had a lot of pressure and weight on his shoulders to have the strength needed to ensure his universe lived following his confrontation with Goku at the Zen Exhibition Match. Then with Dyspo being eliminated, and being on the ropes from a combo attack from Freeza and #17, and with the fate of his Universe literally resting his shoulders and Jiren's (something that previously foreshadowed), he made up his mind to abandon everything he stood for abandon everything he stood for (again, something that was foreshadowed) and chose to embrace the power of a Hakaishin. There were many hints that if shit got really rough, Toppo would would do something out of character.

[Amir]

Sorry but no. His sudden personality shift was ass and terrible

I thought it was at least well founded if a little sudden.

I will say though, that any sense of scale GoD Toppo had to him was immediately shafted the following episode.

well yeah, cause the show's writers decided that Vegeta needed a win so they completely nerfed Toppo.

Sorry but no. His sudden personality shift was ass and terrible

But why?

Because it comes out of fucking nowhere. Again, the issue is the execution on a potentially interesting idea. As it is, Toppo becoming G.O.D. is a thing that sorta just happens.

This all leads back to the single defining issue with this entire arc: there's no real tension. And that's largely due to Super's outright refusal to dive into how fucked up that Goku is the main reason this is all happening. a better show would have focused on the desperation of its characters since they're facing outright oblivion. There is no coming back from that. So a Toppo that's desperate, a Toppo that sees the writing on the wall and makes an impulsive decision, that's something that would have made his transformation have emotional weight.


But this is Super we're talking about, so maybe I'm asking too much of it.

I understand your point about Goku getting most of the spotlight with his shitty character and stupidity and thus the changes that go through other characters can be seen too sudden, and of course the lack of tension as a result, and I agree with the examples you made.

However, like Lord Beerus said, this event with Toppo did not come out of nowhere as we had seen before this some glimpse of Toppo's personality shifting in ep104 and the reason as to why this might occur like in some pre-tournament episode when he was seen very concerned and worried about the fate of his universe.
I'd say it was at least a somewhat proper build up for such an important scene.

[Neon Z]

well yeah, cause the show's writers decided that Vegeta needed a win so they completely nerfed Toppo.

It wasn't even that. The writer of the following episode either didn't bother reading the full script of the previous one or couldn't do that (maybe the script wasn't finalized and he was going just by the main points each writer receives for each episode). Note how Toppo's destruction aura basically doesn't exist plot-wise in the 2nd episode even before Vegeta comes into the battle. Toppo just tanks 17's and Freeza's attacks, or uses his own blasts to clash against theirs. He even has to blast the rocks to get them out of his way.

There's also how the 1st episode, in spite of seemingly making Toppo more overpowered, also introduced a weakness that could lead to his defeat, due to his lack of experience with destruction energy making him slow down to gather energy, but in the next episode that doesn't come up at all. They don't have reference him as an apprentice anymore, just a God of Destruction over and over, and then Vegeta overpowers him even before using the Final Explosion, making its use just confusing. This was also the same writer from the episode of U4's humiliating defeat. He just doesn't seem to know how to hype enemies.

[Lord Beerus]

well yeah, cause the show's writers decided that Vegeta needed a win so they completely nerfed Toppo.

It wasn't even that. The writer of the following episode either didn't bother reading the full script of the previous one or couldn't do that (maybe the script wasn't finalized and he was going just by the main points each writer receives for each episode). Note how Toppo's destruction aura basically doesn't exist plot-wise in the 2nd episode even before Vegeta comes into the battle. Toppo just tanks 17's and Freeza's attacks, or uses his own blasts to clash against theirs. He even has to blast the rocks to get them out of his way.

There's also how the 1st episode, in spite of seemingly making Toppo more overpowered, also introduced a weakness that could lead to his defeat, due to his lack of experience with destruction energy making him slow down to gather energy, but in the next episode that doesn't come up at all. They don't have reference him as an apprentice anymore, just a God of Destruction over and over, and then Vegeta overpowers him even before using the Final Explosion, making its use just confusing. This was also the same writer from the episode of U4's humiliating defeat. He just doesn't seem to know how to hype enemies.

It must be stressed that writers of Super produce scripts based on an outline they are given for any given episode. The script-writing for Super, or anime in general, is not as simple as people think it is:

Production:

The first step is to write the episode scripts. Following the episodes synopsis/plans, the full scripts are written, by either one person for the whole series or by several different writers based on the outlines from the overall script supervisor (staff credit: series composition). The scripts are reviewed by the director, producers, and potentially the author of the original work before being finalised (after 3 or 4 drafts, often). The episode director, supervised by the overall director then takes this backbone of the episode and must plan out how it will actually look on screen. While the director has the final say and is involved at production meetings, the episode director has the most hands-on involvement in developing the episode. This stage is expressed as a storyboard (a visual script), and the storyboard marks the beginning of actual animation production.

[Exline]

Anyone hoping for any new battles we didn't see in the anime?

I definitely want to see a Hit vs. Vegeta Rematch. I was even thinking Tien should be the one to face Damon and Gamisaras of U4 since he can detect their presence.

[ToshioWrites]

Anyone hoping for any new battles we didn't see in the anime?

I definitely want to see a Hit vs. Vegeta Rematch. I was even thinking Tien should be the one to face Damon and Gamisaras of U4 since he can detect their presence.

Hit vs Goku/Vegeta

Dyspo vs 17

Freeza vs Kale

Hear fights won’t have results most likely but still would be cool

[Neon Z]

Anyone hoping for any new battles we didn't see in the anime?

I definitely want to see a Hit vs. Vegeta Rematch. I was even thinking Tien should be the one to face Damon and Gamisaras of U4 since he can detect their presence.

It does seem like we'll get the three humans vs Frost, so some of the second tier matches might end up different from the anime's.

[Benedetto12]

Anyone hoping for any new battles we didn't see in the anime?

I definitely want to see a Hit vs. Vegeta Rematch. I was even thinking Tien should be the one to face Damon and Gamisaras of U4 since he can detect their presence.

Yeah

I´m looking forward to Frost vs. Krillin, Roshi and Tien, I think they may put him in a hurry together so Frost will then aim to KO them one by one.

Also hope we get this fights:

Vegeta vs Hit
17 vs Dyspo
Bergamo vs Piccolo

[FortuneSSJ]

-Volume 5 bonus pages-

I was expecting Toyotaro to draw a bonus page with Beerus using Hakai in front of Goku and Vegeta, even though I doubt a scene like that happening off-screen wouldn't feel forced.
Seems like he didn't. It's a plothole then! Both Goku and Vegeta know about Hakai, even though they never watched it on-screen and there's no mention when they learn about it off-screen. Toyotaro probably got confused with the anime, since Goku was there when Beerus erased Present Zamasu.

[The gr]

-Volume 5 bonus pages-

I was expecting Toyotaro to draw a bonus page with Beerus using Hakai in front of Goku and Vegeta, even though I doubt a scene like that happening off-screen wouldn't feel forced.
Seems like he didn't. It's a plothole then! Both Goku and Vegeta know about Hakai, even though they never watched it on-screen and there's no mention when they learn about it off-screen. Toyotaro probably got confused with the anime, since Goku was there when Beerus erased Present Zamasu.

Wait you saw the other pages aside from the pilaf one,mind posting here and since when Vegeta learned the hakai in the Manga.Goku mentioned he's using this horrible move so is not a plothole if anything is kinda of a deux ex machina.

Can't wait to see Frost vs the humans,he need to find a way to lure Gohan and Piccolo so he can take the earthlings out.

[jeffbr92]

Because it comes out of fucking nowhere. Again, the issue is the execution on a potentially interesting idea. As it is, Toppo becoming G.O.D. is a thing that sorta just happens.

This all leads back to the single defining issue with this entire arc: there's no real tension. And that's largely due to Super's outright refusal to dive into how fucked up that Goku is the main reason this is all happening. a better show would have focused on the desperation of its characters since they're facing outright oblivion. There is no coming back from that. So a Toppo that's desperate, a Toppo that sees the writing on the wall and makes an impulsive decision, that's something that would have made his transformation have emotional weight.

But this is Super we're talking about, so maybe I'm asking too much of it.

I agree so much with that. This arc would be a thousand times better if they kept the early concept of Goku being the cause of all that, then we could see his friends being angry at him to finally realize what he have done because his act had impact on billion of lives being erased. That would carry so much more weight.

But Toriyama/Toei had no guts for that.

[prince212]

-Volume 5 bonus pages-

I was expecting Toyotaro to draw a bonus page with Beerus using Hakai in front of Goku and Vegeta, even though I doubt a scene like that happening off-screen wouldn't feel forced.
Seems like he didn't. It's a plothole then! Both Goku and Vegeta know about Hakai, even though they never watched it on-screen and there's no mention when they learn about it off-screen. Toyotaro probably got confused with the anime, since Goku was there when Beerus erased Present Zamasu.

That bonus page in between chapters would be great idea , making that as a good gag.
I guess vol 5 has 3 bonus pages so there’s hope and has all the sense
If we don’t get that scene is not a big deal but would be awesome , man we are talking about hakai , the greatest technique in super only behind Zenos erase ...

[FortuneSSJ]

Wait you saw the other pages aside from the pilaf one,mind posting here and since when Vegeta learned the hakai in the Manga.

Vegeta didn't use Hakai in the manga but he recognized the move, which implies they saw it before.

Goku mentioned he's using this horrible move so is not a plothole if anything is kinda of a deux ex machina.

Technically it's both a plothole and an asspull.

Plothole, because the characters know about something that it's never implied they saw/learnt about it.
Asspull, because Goku shouldn't be able to copy something that only GoDs or candidates to GoD seem able to do.