Why Krillin wasn't wasted in TOP

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Why Krillin wasn't wasted in TOP

Post by GreatSaiyaJeff » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:15 pm

So one of the complaints I have heard of this tournament is how Krillin and Tien were wasted. While I do agree that Tien was, I don't think Krillin was wasted, in matter of fact, I think he had a good outing despite how brief it was. Episode 99 was an episode dedicated to him and before that we had some episodes showing him regaining his fighting spirit. He weakend Jium so Roshi can Kamehame him out of the ring. This was a nice master and pupil moment. Next, he helped assist 18 taking out Shosa and he also saved her from being eliminated. This was a nice way to show while he isn't as strong as his wife, he is worthy fighting along side her. Lastly he elminated Majora after throwing him off his sense of smell and then a kamehameha. This has shown, while not the strongest, he still has a trick or two up his sleeve and shows that he is truly a great fighter. Sure right afterwards he was eliminated by Frost, but that just goes back to the loveable loser he can be. It's true that there was more episodes focusing on Krillin getting back into his fighting spirit, I think the episode showcased it wasn't wasted. He has proven he can fight along side his freinds, Master, and wife, Krillin, the martial artist that still has some fighting spirit left in him.
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Re: Why Krillin wasn't wasted in TOP

Post by Nero<>Akira » Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:25 am

I can understand why people may feel like this. I honestly wouldn't have wanted him as the first out. I honestly wouldn't want anyone as the first out LOL Everyone is just so cool. I really wish Tien got some love. I really do. I give him a ton in Fighterz. He just got cool again in F then that happened to him. Toyotaro hopefully does something more with him.

Anyway, I personally don't think it was wasted. After rewatching episode 84 and having rewatched 99 earlier this week, I can clearly say that while I thought it was a pretty good episode and satisfying in ways. However, it was undercooked a bit. He could have used another episode with his fight with Majora. Hopefully Krillin doesn't sit out future adventures. He's become a much better character over the past year+.
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Re: Why Krillin wasn't wasted in TOP

Post by precita » Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:49 am

Krillin was handled alright, he just went out way too early in the arc.

I swear Krillin has been on the bench for like 30+ episodes. :lol: Can anyone do an exact count of how many episodes Krillin has been part of the bench commentary starting with the ep after he lost till ep 131 (which is when the tournament ends?)

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Re: Why Krillin wasn't wasted in TOP

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:19 am

I really enjoyed watching him team up with 18 and kick some ass(something I'm looking forward to see in videogames), the way he was eliminated was funny too, also how Beerus treats him when he gets to the stands.

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Re: Why Krillin wasn't wasted in TOP

Post by Kataphrut » Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:48 am

Someone had to go first I suppose. While I am a little disappointed in how Krillin went out, I'd say he put on a good show. The bigger issue I'd say is how long everybody else lasted.

I thought Krillin's episode would be the formula for the non-major characters. One or two episodes of focus, then they get taken out at the end. Instead, a lot of characters I didn't expect to last past their "big moments" kept going and getting more big moments. Roshi and the Androids spring to mind, Piccolo too to a lesser degree.

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Re: Why Krillin wasn't wasted in TOP

Post by Akyon » Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:23 am

I think he was to an extent. Not because of his showing, that was genuinely really good and he got to do a surprising amount in his brief time, but the missed opportunities with other members:

- Interaction with 17. How do the two feel about one another? The manga has 17 grateful for Krillin's wish, and the anime has him call him brother but when the two meet Krillin feels awkward. Would have been really nice to have them interact a bit more since they are family now. With 17 dead for now there's no chance in the remaining episodes of them talking. Disappointment.
- Missed opportunity for interaction with Frieza. Krillin was terrified of Frieza in RoF's Super arc and Frieza seemingly had it in for the guy. Had Krillin stayed in longer it'd have given us a chance to see some interesting interaction and maybe development for Krillin.
-Team up with Goku and Roshi for one last Master and Students moment.
-Team up with Tien; considering these two are good friends and the closest in terms of power they very rarely get to interact with one another.
- Some sort of scrap with Basil, as a payoff for that mind battle Goku and Gohan had of the two. Bonus points if Gohan witnesses it(maybe whilst fighting Lavender in the grudge match) or if the powered up Solar Flare has a payoff in the battle.

If we'd gotten even one of the above I'd have no complaints, but like most of Super's issues it was a missed opportunity.

I do feel like Frost was the best opponent to take him out, I just wish Frost had taken out other characters as well to make his and Frieza's plan look a bit more of a plot point.
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Re: Why Krillin wasn't wasted in TOP

Post by SsjCookie » Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:43 am

It was kinda expected that Krillin would be the first dropout of the tournament, but the way he dropped out I thought was pure amateurism.
Caught off guard like a novice is really not the Krillin I remembered from DBZ.
I expected more of him to be honest.

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Re: Why Krillin wasn't wasted in TOP

Post by Shaqazooloo » Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:27 am

Oh boy... *sigh

Well here we go again... i'm pretty sure this is like 20th time i've ranted on how much of an absolute waste of time Krillin was, but whatever, ill add my 2 cents.

Krillin had 3 episodes pretty much dedicated to developing his character and getting him back into fighting. He also had little bits and pieces of development throughout the entire show that was seemingly leading to a logical conclusion of him pulling off something massively impressive in the ToP. Now, I wasn't asking for much, my highest hopes were for him to get a powerup or to be in the top 4 or 5 of the tournament, but the absolute lowest I was going for was him outlasting Tien and Roshi or defeating a guy way out of his league like Roshi did. It didn't have to be someone like Frost, but atleast someone that hugely put Krillin over and made him look impressive or cool. With how much time they spent with Krillin, building him up and trying to hammer home that he's an important member of the team... having him be the first one out without having accomplished anything of note, kind of made me feel like the writers just spat in my face. They essentially just wasted my time with build up for a character that ends up being the first one out. Since I like comparing this arc to wrestling, it'd be like if leading into the Royal Rumble WWE gave Kofi Kingston some singles highlight and emphasized how experienced he is at the Royal Rumble and pushed him as if he actually stood a chance, giving him matches against the likes of John Cena and AJ Styles, have them both put him over in promo's only for Kofi to be eliminated 5 mins in after he throws a few nobodies over the rope... It's like... what was the point if that's what you were leading to?

Episode 99 was handled horrible too. The writer of that episode really didn't know how to put a character over or give a satisfying conclusion to a character arc, lets go over everything that Krillin does in that episode and why it was a complete waste.

Krillin versus Birdman was hardly anything, 3 moves in total and if anything does a better job at making Gohan look good, standing there, one arm extended, blocking a flame(?) ball without even flinching, that's pretty cool. Krillin throws his Destructo Disk's and slightly cuts the wing of the Birdman, but that's not really impressive imo. Destruct disk's are meant to cut/kill and doing that to a guy that had his attack be blocked by a not trying Gohan in base takes a way from what Krillin does. He also doesn't get the elimination. Why? Like I get the whole thing about teamwork they were trying to push, but if this is an episode that's supposed to be pay-off for the time they dedicated to Krillin then I expect him to get some eliminations by himself before he leaves. It's not like the teamwork thing has much presence for the rest of the tournament anyway...

Krillin saves 18. Alright, well this was pretty cute and hey, now they're teaming up, awesome! :thumbup: ... until you realize they're teaming up against someone that just a few moments before was getting his ass handed to him by 18 all by herself. So whats the point of Krillin in this sequence? Nothing. He's just a waste a screentime playing catch with his wife. He also doesn't get this elimination... again... Why?

Finally, Krillin vs coyote guy (atleast I think its a Coyote). Before I continue, lets fast forward a couple episodes to 105. Roshi vs Gano's was a pretty good example of a jobber match. The role of the jobber is to make the other guy look good by selling moves and making them look devastating, make the other guy look way stronger than he actually is and make it seem like he is giving him his all and provide a decent struggle. They imo pulled it off excellently with Gano's and Roshi, Krillin and Coyote guy on the other hand... well where do I begin? Well first off, the fight in general again isn't really anything much like the 2 other "fights" in this episode. It basically consists of Wile e Coyote and Krillin staring eachother down, brief skirmish and a smelly shoe, in what way did it make Krillin look good or impressive? Other than the flurry of punches and kicks nobody really sold any moves, so this Coyote guy comes off as just being on Krillin's level. 18 makes passes as if both of them can't beat him, but that becomes null when Krillin doesn't even struggle with the guy. We don't even see anything to indicate that this guy is even at half of 18's level. Show, don't tell. Roshi vs Gano's had it right. when they needed to, they had Gano's give Roshi trouble, SHOWING us that he was beyond what Roshi could currently handle making Gano's elimination even more meaningful, since Roshi had to force himself to go beyond his limits to defeat him. You know, that's what I thought they were forshadowing with Krillin pushing back SSB Goku's Kamahamaha, because why would they do that if it wasn't going to lead to Krillin digging down deep and managing to breakthrough his limits and defeat an opponent that severely outclasses him? Well apparently it was no reason, seriously, episode 99 retroactively ruined episodes focused on Krillin for me. So, their was no struggle, Krillin didn't look cool and the whole thing was treated as a joke.

Hopefully people can understand why others can see Krillin as being an absolute waste in the ToP and I haven't even gone into the missed character interactions or awesome matchups that they could've done, like Krillin vs Frost. It might have been repetitive for them to do this but considering one of the episodes that gave Krillin some character development was focused around him confronting his past killers and villians, you would think it'd be a no brainer to have him to have him go up against Frieza's counterpart Frost. It would've showed his progress and cemented the fact that he is not gonna back down from a fight not matter what. Hell they could've used it for easy nostalgia wank for the Z fans.

They could've used this Tournament to elevate Krillin, get interesting character interactions, had awesome matchups (I can't be the only one disappointed we didn't get to see Krillin confront Frost?) or at the very least got some payoff for the episodes that were wasted on him. I won't ask anyone to agree, just that you understand why I feel Krillin was wasted here and why i'm so pissed off about it.
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Re: Why Krillin wasn't wasted in TOP

Post by Zamasu55 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:02 am

Funny thing is, Toei hyped him for his experience aaaaaaaand... he loses because he dropped his guard. :clap: :clap:

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Re: Why Krillin wasn't wasted in TOP

Post by Lionel » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:28 am

Completely agree with Akyon and Shaqazooloo. For all of the narrational posturing being used to give Krillin the allure of someone who can aptly stand on his own two feet through his own methods in this tournament with an entire host of potential sub-plot related interactive exchanges, it fell utterly and completely short of what was potentially suggested. In the grand scheme of things, what did the posturing amount to? He gives Gohan a window to flex his already embellished Saiyan muscles, aids #18 in a fight that she had already had the advantage in, and then finally proceeds to engage Majora of Universe 2 in a short-lived uninspiring fight with some rudimentary strategising using a vomitous piece of apparel of his to gain the advantage on his opponent. Worst of all is that he allows the euphoria to cloud his judgement when the main reasons he was chosen for the tournament in the first place had to do with his experience and wits. If they had rationalised his elimination as the product of Frost being too powerful to be detected then I could agree with that notion, but having Krillin get tossed out just because he wasn't paying attention? It serves no one to discredit Krillin in the two areas where he's still considered to have merit in during this day and age.

Perhaps instead of fattening up Goku's already bloated resume in the precursory fighting before the showdown with the Pride Troopers, that time could have been spent building up the earthlings like Krillin. Goodness knows when, if ever, he'll get another opportunity to fight. Since Super is ending it doesn't look like it'll be any time soon -- and with this new movie being completely dedicated to the Saiyans, yet again, things aren't boding well for the underdogs like Krillin. He'll be "too old" to continue fighting, should any new material be developed for an after Z series (nevermind that Tao, as a human, was several centuries old and looked to be in good shape for his age). Where does that leave the human fans? I suppose nowhere with nothing unless Toriyama is willing to either retract his physical observations of the earthlings after Z or somehow wedge another series in the small time gap that still exists between the ToP arc and the end of Z.

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Re: Why Krillin wasn't wasted in TOP

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:17 am

Krillin was treated fine. He teamed up with Roshi to eliminate and opponent, saved #18 fro being eliminated (which turned out to be incredibly important in the later stages of the TOP), teamed up with #18 to take out the person who nearly eliminated #18 and eliminated someone on his own. I do wish his enhanced Solar Flare had more of payoff, but I guess it will have join list of other unique techniques created by certain fighters that didn't make a difference in battle. And it's sad Krillin didn't interact more with other teammates in the TOP itself.

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Re: Why Krillin wasn't wasted in TOP

Post by Totamo » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:49 am

Lionel wrote:Completely agree with Akyon and Shaqazooloo. For all of the narrational posturing being used to give Krillin the allure of someone who can aptly stand on his own two feet through his own methods in this tournament with an entire host of potential sub-plot related interactive exchanges, it fell utterly and completely short of what was potentially suggested. In the grand scheme of things, what did the posturing amount to? He gives Gohan a window to flex his already embellished Saiyan muscles, aids #18 in a fight that she had already had the advantage in, and then finally proceeds to engage Majora of Universe 2 in a short-lived uninspiring fight with some rudimentary strategising using a vomitous piece of apparel of his to gain the advantage on his opponent. Worst of all is that he allows the euphoria to cloud his judgement when the main reasons he was chosen for the tournament in the first place had to do with his experience and wits. If they had rationalised his elimination as the product of Frost being too powerful to be detected then I could agree with that notion, but having Krillin get tossed out just because he wasn't paying attention? It serves no one to discredit Krillin in the two areas where he's still considered to have merit in during this day and age.

Perhaps instead of fattening up Goku's already bloated resume in the precursory fighting before the showdown with the Pride Troopers, that time could have been spent building up the earthlings like Krillin. Goodness knows when, if ever, he'll get another opportunity to fight. Since Super is ending it doesn't look like it'll be any time soon -- and with this new movie being completely dedicated to the Saiyans, yet again, things aren't boding well for the underdogs like Krillin. He'll be "too old" to continue fighting, should any new material be developed for an after Z series (nevermind that Tao, as a human, was several centuries old and looked to be in good shape for his age). Where does that leave the human fans? I suppose nowhere with nothing unless Toriyama is willing to either retract his physical observations of the earthlings after Z or somehow wedge another series in the small time gap that still exists between the ToP arc and the end of Z.
ok, so then ignore the 3 episodes and focus on his showing in the tournament.. like the question asked.


Then again, you seem to have a bias against saiyans which makes me wonder why do you watch the show when the nonones don't.

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Re: Why Krillin wasn't wasted in TOP

Post by Totamo » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:55 am

Like many things in super, the anger is driven by expectations the fans felt the show gave them.


This is why I like the manga better, there are no expectations so I'm surprised with the cool stuff and only have myself to blame with the disappointing stuff.

I have argued with heror over this a thousand times and every week reaffirms my point, the recruitment arc didn't need to happen.

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Re: Why Krillin wasn't wasted in TOP

Post by Shaqazooloo » Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:41 am

Totamo wrote:Like many things in super, the anger is driven by expectations the fans felt the show gave them.


This is why I like the manga better, there are no expectations so I'm surprised with the cool stuff and only have myself to blame with the disappointing stuff.

I have argued with heror over this a thousand times and every week reaffirms my point, the recruitment arc didn't need to happen.
I kind of agree with this. I haven't really read much from the manga but I like its approach more. I don't expect anything from Krillin and if he does do something cool, awesome! I feel like it's much better than trying to build him up as if he'll be even remotely important and then just not doing anything with him.

What did the Recruitment arc add anyway? Once the tournament actually started it felt like everything that took place before it didn't matter. I would've really liked it if they skipped it completely.
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Re: Why Krillin wasn't wasted in TOP

Post by SsjCookie » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:24 am

Totamo wrote:Like many things in super, the anger is driven by expectations the fans felt the show gave them.
True, the false expectations that were given by the show gave the fans the impression that they would finally see some of their favourite characters shine for a change.
But did that happen?
With the exception of 17, Freeza and Roshi, Mostly not!

Tien was completely wasted and Krillin was not much better.
Gohan and Piccolo I had the most hopes for, but their fights were underwhelming and unsatisfactory and added nothing in the way of battle tension.
You would never think they were fighting for their lives the way they fought. :yawn:
18 was mediocre at best.
These are NOT mediocre characters, they deserved more!

As of now, I think 17 was the most impressive of this tournament so far. Not Goku or Vegeta.

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Re: Why Krillin wasn't wasted in TOP

Post by lancerman » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:52 am

SsjCookie wrote:
Totamo wrote:Like many things in super, the anger is driven by expectations the fans felt the show gave them.
True, the false expectations that were given by the show gave the fans the impression that they would finally see some of their favourite characters shine for a change.
But did that happen?
With the exception of 17, Freeza and Roshi, Mostly not!

Tien was completely wasted and Krillin was not much better.
Gohan and Piccolo I had the most hopes for, but their fights were underwhelming and unsatisfactory and added nothing in the way of battle tension.
You would never think they were fighting for their lives the way they fought. :yawn:
18 was mediocre at best.
These are NOT mediocre characters, they deserved more!

As of now, I think 17 was the most impressive of this tournament so far. Not Goku or Vegeta.
They hyped every character in the tournament. Kuriren got some episodes, Gohan and Piccolo got multiple episodes, 17 got some some episodes, Tenshinhan and Roshi got episodes, Freeza got some episodes, Vegeta was in the background constantly, 18 was in most Kuriren episodes as well.

The fact is, some characters were going to get knocked out early. People were already complaining that U7 did so well and that their characters got the most eliminations and lasted on average the longest.

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Re: Why Krillin wasn't wasted in TOP

Post by GodKaio-Ken » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:58 am

lancerman wrote:
SsjCookie wrote:
Totamo wrote:Like many things in super, the anger is driven by expectations the fans felt the show gave them.
True, the false expectations that were given by the show gave the fans the impression that they would finally see some of their favourite characters shine for a change.
But did that happen?
With the exception of 17, Freeza and Roshi, Mostly not!

Tien was completely wasted and Krillin was not much better.
Gohan and Piccolo I had the most hopes for, but their fights were underwhelming and unsatisfactory and added nothing in the way of battle tension.
You would never think they were fighting for their lives the way they fought. :yawn:
18 was mediocre at best.
These are NOT mediocre characters, they deserved more!

As of now, I think 17 was the most impressive of this tournament so far. Not Goku or Vegeta.
They hyped every character in the tournament. Kuriren got some episodes, Gohan and Piccolo got multiple episodes, 17 got some some episodes, Tenshinhan and Roshi got episodes, Freeza got some episodes, Vegeta was in the background constantly, 18 was in most Kuriren episodes as well.

The fact is, some characters were going to get knocked out early. People were already complaining that U7 did so well and that their characters got the most eliminations and lasted on average the longest.
It's not that he was eliminated early. It's that the only thing he did was throw a stinky shoe at a guy who could have been eliminated by basically anyone. They made him look like a clown.
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Re: Why Krillin wasn't wasted in TOP

Post by SsjCookie » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:42 pm

GodKaio-Ken wrote:
lancerman wrote:
SsjCookie wrote:
True, the false expectations that were given by the show gave the fans the impression that they would finally see some of their favourite characters shine for a change.
But did that happen?
With the exception of 17, Freeza and Roshi, Mostly not!

Tien was completely wasted and Krillin was not much better.
Gohan and Piccolo I had the most hopes for, but their fights were underwhelming and unsatisfactory and added nothing in the way of battle tension.
You would never think they were fighting for their lives the way they fought. :yawn:
18 was mediocre at best.
These are NOT mediocre characters, they deserved more!

As of now, I think 17 was the most impressive of this tournament so far. Not Goku or Vegeta.
They hyped every character in the tournament. Kuriren got some episodes, Gohan and Piccolo got multiple episodes, 17 got some some episodes, Tenshinhan and Roshi got episodes, Freeza got some episodes, Vegeta was in the background constantly, 18 was in most Kuriren episodes as well.

The fact is, some characters were going to get knocked out early. People were already complaining that U7 did so well and that their characters got the most eliminations and lasted on average the longest.
It's not that he was eliminated early. It's that the only thing he did was throw a stinky shoe at a guy who could have been eliminated by basically anyone. They made him look like a clown.
This guy used to take on Freeza while ridiculously outmatched.
He was very impressive and not to mention RELEVANT in the DBZ Freeza saga.

Here in Super, he's just like you said put away as a clown.
He's only fighting for his family's survival people!

I mean really?! :thumbdown:

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Re: Why Krillin wasn't wasted in TOP

Post by Lionel » Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:43 pm

Totamo wrote:ok, so then ignore the 3 episodes and focus on his showing in the tournament.. like the question asked.

Then again, you seem to have a bias against saiyans which makes me wonder why do you watch the show when the nonones don't.
I do harbour a prejudice, yes. My mind associates them with the unceasing monopolisation of the show around their myths and species-dependent transformations ever since the Freeza arc. I feel it was a convenient means for which Toriyama could more easily rationalise the rapid progressional rates of his cast. Plus, it appealed to a good majority of people, I imagine, so even better. I don't care for them because they represent traits that have all but alienated everyone else in some form of another -- exclusivism, advantageous opportunities, a compulsive consolidation of narrational focus around themselves, ect. They do train, they do push their limits -- that's very much true -- but it can't be denied that these advantages do play an important role in their growth.

As I mentioned to you in the other topic, I look for the moments in-between where these characters are able to shine. I appreciate them for what they do provide but I feel that to ask or hope for more isn't necessarily a bad thing. If Toriyama didn't see value in them then he would have left them to languish in obscurity. Is the hope of something more wrong, in your opinion? Is it egregious to hope for something more in light of this reinstitution of the classic characters? If so, then why is that? Does Toriyama just not have interest in them?

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Re: Why Krillin wasn't wasted in TOP

Post by Totamo » Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:06 pm

lancerman wrote:
SsjCookie wrote:
Totamo wrote:Like many things in super, the anger is driven by expectations the fans felt the show gave them.
True, the false expectations that were given by the show gave the fans the impression that they would finally see some of their favourite characters shine for a change.
But did that happen?
With the exception of 17, Freeza and Roshi, Mostly not!

Tien was completely wasted and Krillin was not much better.
Gohan and Piccolo I had the most hopes for, but their fights were underwhelming and unsatisfactory and added nothing in the way of battle tension.
You would never think they were fighting for their lives the way they fought. :yawn:
18 was mediocre at best.
These are NOT mediocre characters, they deserved more!

As of now, I think 17 was the most impressive of this tournament so far. Not Goku or Vegeta.
They hyped every character in the tournament. Kuriren got some episodes, Gohan and Piccolo got multiple episodes, 17 got some some episodes, Tenshinhan and Roshi got episodes, Freeza got some episodes, Vegeta was in the background constantly, 18 was in most Kuriren episodes as well.

The fact is, some characters were going to get knocked out early. People were already complaining that U7 did so well and that their characters got the most eliminations and lasted on average the longest.
You are also right, I knew for a fact, not everyone would be satisfied with the performance of their favorite character.


Hell, some where even angry that roshi did so well.

My point was, Super had a chance to give them something GT didn't, side characters fighting by Goku side and while its efforts should be commended, it would be lie to say they couldn't have done more.

I love me some Krillin and I don't think he was wasted more like he was underused and overhyped and I don't blame that one on Toriyama, that was all Toei.

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