Super Episode 129 (4 March 2018)

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Re: Super Episode 129 (4 March 2018)

Post by jeffbr92 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:40 pm

OverHeaven wrote:Image
Am I the only one who got extremely triggered by this? It was mentioned here before but this further proves that Toei are taking the fans for total idiots. Sure let's accepts that everyone somehow forgot about Frieza at the same time, but this idiot was looking straight at the GodPad with his own eyes and still pretend like it's only Jiren and Goku who're left. And they purposely didn't show Frieza's icon, so sad :lol: How desperate can you be.
Sure Zenos are stupid, but not to this point and you know it. Even 10 years old kids who are this show is supposedly directed at should be aware of Frieza.

The worst part is that when Frieza appear, they'll probably make all characters look surprised at this sudden "twist" God that is going to be too cringy.

I'm not, really. Although you made a good point about even 10 year olds being aware of this forced scenario, don't change the fact that this series will never have a more well thought plotline.
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Re: Super Episode 129 (4 March 2018)

Post by TheShadowEmperor8055 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:48 pm

Exline wrote:
lord turbo wrote:
Firebolt wrote:
Hating is completely different from criticizing.

We are 3 episodes to the series' end, and we get this, an episode filled with lackluster action at the beginning, outrageous amounts of reused/redrawn animation throughout the middle, and an amazing, albeit short scene at the end.

What's more, this episode could be the penultimate battle of the entire series, and it's filled with an abundance of technical issues. Again, this close to the finale, an episode like this is unacceptable.

Even more so, this episode was hyped up by Toei to be the best episode and battle of Super so far, after a seemingly endless string of mediocre to outright bad episodes. Yet as most people have noticed, this is not the case.

Most people, especially here on Kanzenshuu are not mindlessly hating over insignificant details, we are dissapointed because these final episodes could've been so much more, because of just how poorly executed these final episodes were.

I don't mean to be rude, but just because some people did not personally enjoy an episode as much as you did, it does not mean they are "haters", and they are perfectly entitled to express their opinions on forums such as this very website.
You hit the nail on the head with this post my friend.
Agreed. ZenkaiBoosts seems to ignore almost everyone else who says they're dissatisfied with the Super Episodes. He/She thinks everyone needs to agree them and seems to be trying their best to convince us the WHOLE fandom is just ecstatic about this episode.
Then report ZenkaiBoosts, which I'm pretty close to doing myself. There is nothing wrong with positivity or negativity. There is nothing wrong with disagreement from both sides. What's wrong is when a person on the positivity side begins attacking or hastily generalizing those on the side of negativity, or vice versa, and ZenkaiBoosts is the former.

The people he disagrees with aren't "haters", we all love Dragon Ball just as much as the next guy, but we have different levels of expectations. Thus, when those expectations aren't met, it's natural to criticize. A "hater" is someone who has no love in a certain media whatsoever, and unreasonably shits on it no matter what happens, and I'm quite sure there was at least one thing in Super we all liked, otherwise it's pointless for us to be here watching the show in the first place.
Zagacious wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Can people stop with the triple posts? Either edit stuff in, write your full post to begin with, or sit back and take a Prozac. There's no need for one person to make up 75% of half the pages in this thread.
It's all ZenKai Boost no reason to blame everyone else. He's the reason the last thread got locked cause he can't control himself or stay on topic. I don't know he is even bothering to quote people if he's not going to reply to what they are actually saying. The spam is already getting way out of control. He could just write "you're wrong I'm right" and be contributing just as much as his current posts are.
Brettjr25 wrote:Just report and hope the mods do something, thats what I did. People asked him to stop before and he just continues. I think he's on a mission to make his opinion the majority opinion by reposting and reposting and copy/pasting opinions from youtube.
Their solution in the episode 128 thread was just to close the thread, even though it was 100% because of his spam and pointless/endless quotes where he doesn't even respond to their posts that he's quoting other than saying 'you're wrong' 'your opinion is the minority' etc useless. If hes just going to spam his same opinions over and over without adding anything new this thread would be 10 times cleaner without him.
It's difficult even trying read through this thread to discern the legitimate posts from his fanboy spam, since in some cases it's taking up half or more of the page.
If they keep having to close threads because they get out of hand, and the one constant in all of those situations is one user, then eventually they'll ban user, as they can't keep closing threads and locking the rest of the community out because of one user's actions. And you're right, all he does is simply spam posts because he either doesn't know how to simply edit his posts if they are the most current ones or simply chooses not to, and like you said, his posts don't contribute much to the discussion other than him constantly repeating himself. Just keep reporting it and the mods and admins will eventually do something that'll help the community, as they always do.

Onto the episode itself, again, I'm in agreement with those who didn't expect a third of the episode to be reused animation that we've seen before. When we're hyped up to see something, it's because that something is usually expected to be a never-before-seen spectacle, as there isn't as much excitement in seeing something we've seen before many times. In this case, it would be the reused animation. Everything else that was new was actually very good and enjoyable to watch. I only wish the rest of the ToP was that way.

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Re: Super Episode 129 (4 March 2018)

Post by Dbzfan94 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:29 pm

ZenkaiBoosts wrote: This just sounds like bullying and false reporting. How many times did I actually post 3 times in a row? My posts were responses to others and responses to others who quoted me. Not once did I just post 3 straight times without a quote. And none of the quotes I posted were from youtube btw. I was just trying to give people a wide range of differing opinions, instead of the usual negativity. In fact, you could be reported for making false reports
It’s not bullying. It’s in the rules. You double and triple posts with the same few sentences over and over again to prove your point as “fact” despite free warnings from mods to stop.

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Re: Super Episode 129 (4 March 2018)

Post by Asura » Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:54 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:
freak27 wrote:Why Goku sounds like hes drinking coke through a straw, when he takes deep breaths in the episode?

How stupid was that?i mean c mon!
i thought the same thing, like what was he slurping?
Yeah I normally don't mind the weird sound effects that come out of the Jap dub, but this was really off. I get that they were going for the "Goku is taking a deep breath" thing, but it honestly sounded like he was preparing a monster loogie to spit at Jiren instead :lol:.

It really shouldn't be that hard to just do a deep breath sound effect so I'm really unsure as to what Nozawa was going for there, or what the direction was for the scene, but it didn't sound good.

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Re: Super Episode 129 (4 March 2018)

Post by supersaiyanZero » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:47 pm

ZenkaiBoosts wrote:I liked this quote/review a lot.

"This episode and its reaction cemented in my mind that some people will literally never be pleased with Super no matter what. No, I don't care that they used some recycled animation in the episode. It's barely noticeable if you're not looking for it and the abundance of new animation was very well done. No, I don't care about the focus on the stands. Seeing others react to the main fight, for me, increases the hype, and moments like Vegeta talking down to Belmod, the gods standing, Whis' reaction and Beerus telling the humans to shut up were all well done and welcome. No, I don't consider Goku's powerup a problem. Goku getting "asspull" powerups has existed since he instantly perfected the Kamehameha as a child after seeing it performed once, or happening to be the "one in a million" Super Saiyan. At least in Super Ultra Instinct was foreshadowed early on. We get an amazing episode with great animation, fights, sound direction and hype on the level of the whole franchise, and even that is leading into what seems to be an even greater episode next week, and some people are convinced that it is irredeemable trash? If this episode isn't up to your standards, frankly, I have no idea how you can stomach anything in the entire franchise."




If you loved this episode like the majority did, don't let the vocal minority bully you, dissuade you, or distort things for you. Many have been calling 129 one of the best episodes in Dragon Ball. I agree. It's been overwhelmingly more then well received. Dont worry: ). There's always going to be "haters" for everything I guess. Beat that with positivity: )

I mean look at Conor McGregor for example. Conor McGregor is the only fighter in UFC history to win belts in 2 different weight classes at the same time. Conor is an absolutely proven phenomenal technician who's destroyed the best of the best, yet you still have people who claim he sucks and is still not proven, simply because they don't personally like him. On the internet you are always going to get those types who just want to hate on everything. It's even good for your health to be a positive person. Just enjoy life: ) Enjoy things for what they are. Only 2 more episodes of Super left boys. It's been an amazing ride. Son Goku baby! Let's do this. Jiren is about to get humbled by mastered UI Goku. I can't wait!!!
Your comparisons are so off the mark it's becoming increasingly hard to have any type of conversation with you. Did you really compare Conor Mcgregor and his fandom (or lack thereof) to Super? And you study psychology? You treat Super like it is some kind of religion. What I saw, and many people here saw, was a lackluster "final boss battle" episode that lacked emotion, buildup, and had no weight behind it. It had some cool scenes, and surprisingly good dialogue from the bench, but followed the same formula this arc has followed in its entirety. Goku fights, maybe sort of struggles (can't really tell), and transforms. Whis' whole speech about Goku's desperation was interesting because we saw absolutely none of that. There didn't seem to be anything at stake for Goku (as usual) and now we are to believe that the weight of his universe and friends are driving him to victory. Please.

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Re: Super Episode 129 (4 March 2018)

Post by ZenkaiBoosts » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:54 pm

Helios518 wrote:I wasn't really sure when I first watched this but after a rewatch or two, it holds up pretty nicely. I was hoping less reused animation due to y'know? Being half of possibly the biggest fight in DBS. But still the last 10 minutes of 129 was great probably my favorite introduction to a new form. I'll probably give this episode a B+ or A-.
Spot on my brother. Thats how you know this episode is great. It gets better the more you rewatch it.

With the 2 week wait and everything else, I'm sure some had crazy high expectations. No matter how great it was, it was going to disappoint some - stacked up against impossible expectations

But when that settles down, expectations are no longer there, and you simply view the episode as is, I'm confident more and more of that small group who were disappointed are going to chnage their tunes and love episode 129 on a rewatch.

I can rewatch 127, 128, 129 all day, and every single rewatch is just as great as the last. Legit 10/10 episodes for me

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Re: Super Episode 129 (4 March 2018)

Post by Kaio-Kienzan » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:38 pm

Having finally watched the episode, I'm gonna echo what others in the thread have already said. This episode's first half was entirely forgettable, not in an overly offensive way, but upon looking back at it, there's very little that actually sticks out in terms of Goku vs. Jiren, in large part due to the repeated animation. The chit-chat on the sidelines was decent, but for what is supposed to be the start of the final big confrontation of the arc, I was definitely left wanting. The second half definitely picked things up a bit, but there still wasn't too much that left me amazed.


Also, I really hope the writers don't expect us to be shocked when Freeza pops out at the end of this thing. If they do, it'll most likely be a huge disappointment for me, especially when I'm already concerned over whether he'll even get to do anything significant before the series comes to a close. Overall, this episode left me wanting something more, and although I want to be optimistic about the quality of the last two episodes, this one has certainly left me more than a little doubtful about the staff's ability to bring this arc to a satisfactory close, much less the entire series.
Last edited by Kaio-Kienzan on Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I didn't think I'd want any character to fuck off from a story more than Nick Fury in Age of Ultron but whoo boy, Trunks definitely earns that coveted position. :problem:

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Re: Super Episode 129 (4 March 2018)

Post by ZenkaiBoosts » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:45 pm

Over all, reception toward 129 has been positive in this thread. At worst its been mixed

The majority in this thread seem to agree episode 129 was great. I would say it's been close to 65/35 in favor of episode 129

Every where else, it's overwhelmingly positive for episode 129 though. Well deserved. Episode 129 was amazing. One of my favorite episodes in all of Dragon Ball and with out doubt contained the greatest transformation ever. Let's go Son Goku baby ! Can't wait for 130. Get him Goku!

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Re: Super Episode 129 (4 March 2018)

Post by Ajay » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:06 am

ZenkaiBoosts wrote:Over all, reception toward 129 has been positive in this thread. At worst its been mixed

The majority in this thread seem to agree episode 129 was great. I would say it's been close to 65/35 in favor of episode 129

Every where else, it's overwhelmingly positive for episode 129 though. Well deserved. Episode 129 was amazing. One of my favorite episodes in all of Dragon Ball and with out doubt contained the greatest transformation ever. Let's go Son Goku baby ! Can't wait for 130. Get him Goku!
You have been reported at least five times from five separate people for spamming this thread with the same types of posts over and over. Enough is enough. Feel confident in your own opinion, you do not need to make wild sweeping generalisations and assume baseless consensuses to feel validated.
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Re: Super Episode 129 (4 March 2018)

Post by ZenkaiBoosts » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:21 am

Ajay wrote:
ZenkaiBoosts wrote:Over all, reception toward 129 has been positive in this thread. At worst its been mixed

The majority in this thread seem to agree episode 129 was great. I would say it's been close to 65/35 in favor of episode 129

Every where else, it's overwhelmingly positive for episode 129 though. Well deserved. Episode 129 was amazing. One of my favorite episodes in all of Dragon Ball and with out doubt contained the greatest transformation ever. Let's go Son Goku baby ! Can't wait for 130. Get him Goku!
You have been reported at least five times from five separate people for spamming this thread with the same types of posts over and over. Enough is enough. Feel confident in your own opinion, you do not need to make wild sweeping generalisations and assume baseless consensuses to feel validated.
That's crazy that people will report you just for having a differing opinion.

No where did I spam. I didn't even post in this thread until page 5. And i didn't post again until this page, where my last post had been on page 8 or 9.

I'm not making generalizations. You can see the consensus. I don't care about validation either. I wouldn't care if I was the only one who liked an episode. That wouldnt change my opinion.

I'm done posting in this thread though.

Btw, great work with your channel Ajay. Keep up the great work: ) When do you plan to drop your next video?

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Re: Super Episode 129 (4 March 2018)

Post by Asura » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:58 am

ZenkaiBoosts wrote:
Ajay wrote:
ZenkaiBoosts wrote:Over all, reception toward 129 has been positive in this thread. At worst its been mixed

The majority in this thread seem to agree episode 129 was great. I would say it's been close to 65/35 in favor of episode 129

Every where else, it's overwhelmingly positive for episode 129 though. Well deserved. Episode 129 was amazing. One of my favorite episodes in all of Dragon Ball and with out doubt contained the greatest transformation ever. Let's go Son Goku baby ! Can't wait for 130. Get him Goku!
You have been reported at least five times from five separate people for spamming this thread with the same types of posts over and over. Enough is enough. Feel confident in your own opinion, you do not need to make wild sweeping generalisations and assume baseless consensuses to feel validated.
That's crazy that people will report you just for having a differing opinion.

No where did I spam. I didn't even post in this thread until page 5. And i didn't post again until this page, where my last post had been on page 8 or 9.

I'm not making generalizations. You can see the consensus. I don't care about validation either. I wouldn't care if I was the only one who liked an episode. That wouldnt change my opinion.

I'm done posting in this thread though.

Btw, great work with your channel Ajay. Keep up the great work: ) When do you plan to drop your next video?
You're not getting reported because you have a different opinion. I wouldn't doubt it if among those five people multiple of them viewed the episode positively. There are a total of 209 replies in the thread, and you have 30 of them. You alone count for 14.3% of all posts in the thread, and you're only one person. That's insane, man. Furthermore, yeah, you have been spamming. When you make the same post over and over again, that's spamming. Just look at how many posts you've made that are just random positive comments all over the internet, or how many posts you've made that are just you mentioning how overwhelmingly positive the reception to this episode was.

Just chill out man, it's like you take it personally whenever someone doesn't respond to an episode with overwhelming praise and worship, and so you have to counter that with saying how there are people elsewhere who agree with you, as if seeking validation. Unless you have something new to add that you haven't already said before, you really shouldn't be saying it again.

Anyway, back to the episode. One thing I noticed which is most certainly not intentional but cool to think about nonetheless, is that in this image the energy around Goku looks like a galaxy, and he's in the center of it. In 110 Goku falls into or absorbs what looks to be a black hole, and black holes exist at the center of galaxies. If Goku represents the black hole, than the galaxy around him represents his radiating Ultra Instinct power. It's also the exact same thing with Goku vs Jiren in an energy struggle with a bag ass energy ball involved. Very, very, obviously not intentional in the writing but just something I thought of.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

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Re: Super Episode 129 (4 March 2018)

Post by TheShadowEmperor8055 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:45 am

ZenkaiBoosts wrote: That's crazy that people will report you just for having a differing opinion.
That's BS. Look at Lord Beerus for example. He almost always has things mainly positive to say about each and every episode in Super, yet he never gets any complaints. Why? Because he doesn't attack or hastily generalize people that disagree with him as "haters" like you do.
ZenkaiBoosts wrote: No where did I spam. I didn't even post in this thread until page 5. And i didn't post again until this page, where my last post had been on page 8 or 9.
Again, BS. Look at Asura's post:
Asura wrote:There are a total of 209 replies in the thread, and you have 30 of them. You alone count for 14.3% of all posts in the thread, and you're only one person. That's insane, man. Furthermore, yeah, you have been spamming. When you make the same post over and over again, that's spamming. Just look at how many posts you've made that are just random positive comments all over the internet, or how many posts you've made that are just you mentioning how overwhelmingly positive the reception to this episode was.
Yes, you have been double and triple posting in this thread.
ZenkaiBoosts wrote: I'm not making generalizations. You can see the consensus. I don't care about validation either. I wouldn't care if I was the only one who liked an episode. That wouldnt change my opinion.
So you can look over every opinion on the internet (which is impossible) and say "this episode has overwhelmingly positive reception", but you can't even tell you been double/triple posting and spamming in this thread? Again, BS.

Back to the main topic, one thing I do like about Goku's Ultra Instinct is how some of his techniques have been his own re-imagination of Hit's techniques. Case and point, the air punch he inflicted on Kefla is very similar to the move Hit used to kill Goku in episode 71. And the move Goku used on Jiren in this episode (shown in this gif) is strikingly similar to Hit's Time-Skip.

Another interesting parallel is how this is similar to Luffy's Gear Fourth techniques in One Piece being his own re-imagination of the Rokushiki techniques from the CP9 agents. And a third parallel is that Hit and CP9 are both assassins. :lol:

This is probably me looking to deep into something that is just a huge coincidence, but it's still interesting to point out. :lol:

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Re: Super Episode 129 (4 March 2018)

Post by Super Saiyan Swagger » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:54 am

I think the scene where Goku appears right behind Jiren and the ass kicking that follows might just be one of my favourite moments in all of Dragon Ball. That moment of realisation when Goku's just a blurry figure behind Jiren but you see the blast Jiren just shot in Goku's hand, then he just reduces it to nothing... fucking incredible. Goku just being a white, glowing, silhouette that didn't make a sound during all of this was awesome.

The Gods of Destruction standing up to honour Goku's ascension was a great touch. Even though we could only see Belmod's back, we could totally tell that he could not believe what he was seeing due to him being dead-silent.

Also, 'The Final Death-Match' is the best track in Super (not including 'Ultimate Battle'). Every time this track plays it gives me chills, but here it was without a doubt the best placement. Best part was when the drums kicked in and it just felt like this huge final showdown taking place on the giant pillar in the middle of the arena. I wish the whole fight just took place there from now on but it seems like it's not happening.

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Re: Super Episode 129 (4 March 2018)

Post by Asura » Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:45 am

TheShadowEmperor8055 wrote:Back to the main topic, one thing I do like about Goku's Ultra Instinct is how some of his techniques have been his own re-imagination of Hit's techniques. Case and point, the air punch he inflicted on Kefla is very similar to the move Hit used to kill Goku in episode 71. And the move Goku used on Jiren in this episode (shown in this gif) is strikingly similar to Hit's Time-Skip.
Honestly it all reminds me of Kenshiro from Hokuto No Ken (Fist of the North Star). Ultra Instinct works the exact same way as Musou Tensei, the ability that Kenshiro learns at the very end of the series (not counting Hokuto No Ken 2) where he can dodge every attack. Not only that, but he could do exactly what you just described which is using other people's attacks. He attacks with the abilities of his fallen comrades. Kenshiro's pressure point attacks also have a delay before they hit their opponents, kinda like how Jiren didn't get hit by Goku's punches until a few seconds afterwards. Speaking of Hokuto No Ken 2, at the end of that series he learns an evolved form of Musou Tensei, just like Goku learns Mastered Ultra Instinct. There are definitely a lot of interesting parallels to be made.

Even the way that they dodge is similar, both have the effect of moving so fast that it looks like they have an afterimage following them.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

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Re: Super Episode 129 (4 March 2018)

Post by Artorias » Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:58 am

Okara wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
Okara wrote: Which they didn’t start getting into until the second half. The first half was them fighting equally, eventually giving the edge to Jiren. Most of this could’ve been cut. We saw all of this during their first fight and they even reused a bunch of animation from that episode and that Kefla one. Why even bother with this if the meat of it is reused animation?
But it wasn't re-used, the first half wasn't merely setting up "Goku can't beat Jiren currently", it went beyond that to say that "Goku can go beyond his current power to beat Jiren", I don't see how thats necessarily re-used from 110, which doesn't establish that Goku can't beat Jiren with Omen, but more establishes that "Goku can fight Jiren with Omen" and serves as an introduction to that level of power.
We already knew that because they showed us in the preview. It’s in the episode title. These guys can’t keep the plot hidden to save their lives. They don’t need to dedicate the first half of the episode to telling us Goku is about to do what they outright told us will happen; most of it was just reused animation. The first ten minutes all could’ve taken place in a minute or two. The second half spent WAY too much time on the scene with Goku get pummeled and struggling to overcome it. This also could’ve been cut down (seriously, it’s almost like Toei was taking a shot at themselves by having Beerus tell Krillin to shut the fuck up. But I highly doubt they’re even aware of how bad it is).

I guarantee you 2/3 of the first half of next episode will be spent talking about how “awesome” mastered Ultra Instinct is and telling us stuff we can plainly see, as if the show is marketed towards blind people. That should’ve been in the second half of this episode.
I disagree immensely with what you're saying. The only reason any of this had any impact was BECAUSE of the length of time it took. And it honestly wasn't even that long. The whole sequence of Goku being overcome with Jiren's assault on the rock was a few minutes. If you don't have the patience for a few MINUTES of build up and suspense, then I don't know how you can sit through any piece of fiction. Don't you understand basic pacing and build up? You can't just throw in a bunch of small, short bursts of concepts with no level of anticipation and expect the pay off to mean anything. The only reason it's so satisfying to see mastered UI Goku own Jiren at the end like that is BECAUSE of the struggles he went through during the entirety of the episode. That scene would have zero impact otherwise. You have to let things simmer and build in order to have a narrative pay off.

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Re: Super Episode 129 (4 March 2018)

Post by TheShadowEmperor8055 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:10 am

Asura wrote:
TheShadowEmperor8055 wrote:Back to the main topic, one thing I do like about Goku's Ultra Instinct is how some of his techniques have been his own re-imagination of Hit's techniques. Case and point, the air punch he inflicted on Kefla is very similar to the move Hit used to kill Goku in episode 71. And the move Goku used on Jiren in this episode (shown in this gif) is strikingly similar to Hit's Time-Skip.
Honestly it all reminds me of Kenshiro from Hokuto No Ken (Fist of the North Star). Ultra Instinct works the exact same way as Musou Tensei, the ability that Kenshiro learns at the very end of the series (not counting Hokuto No Ken 2) where he can dodge every attack. Not only that, but he could do exactly what you just described which is using other people's attacks. He attacks with the abilities of his fallen comrades. Kenshiro's pressure point attacks also have a delay before they hit their opponents, kinda like how Jiren didn't get hit by Goku's punches until a few seconds afterwards. Speaking of Hokuto No Ken 2, at the end of that series he learns an evolved form of Musou Tensei, just like Goku learns Mastered Ultra Instinct. There are definitely a lot of interesting parallels to be made.

Even the way that they dodge is similar, both have the effect of moving so fast that it looks like they have an afterimage following them.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
So many parallels... :lol:

Even if Toriyama may have gotten inspiration from other series (and even if I prefer black hair to silver hair), I still believe he outdid himself with Ultra Instinct and the awesomeness it displays. :lol:

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Re: Super Episode 129 (4 March 2018)

Post by Artorias » Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:14 am

ZenkaiBoosts wrote:I really thought that the limit breaker theme was going to be played for Goku's mastered UI transformation

I think it would've fit perfectly

https://youtu.be/a9uIAsI_O5w

I wonder what occasion they are saving that theme for now. Any guesses, anyone?
Dude...for gods sake stop double and triple posting. Every one is telling you every week and you just ignore them and continue to do it. Stop. Use the edit button.

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Re: Super Episode 129 (4 March 2018)

Post by Okara » Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:15 am

Artorias wrote:
Okara wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:But it wasn't re-used, the first half wasn't merely setting up "Goku can't beat Jiren currently", it went beyond that to say that "Goku can go beyond his current power to beat Jiren", I don't see how thats necessarily re-used from 110, which doesn't establish that Goku can't beat Jiren with Omen, but more establishes that "Goku can fight Jiren with Omen" and serves as an introduction to that level of power.
We already knew that because they showed us in the preview. It’s in the episode title. These guys can’t keep the plot hidden to save their lives. They don’t need to dedicate the first half of the episode to telling us Goku is about to do what they outright told us will happen; most of it was just reused animation. The first ten minutes all could’ve taken place in a minute or two. The second half spent WAY too much time on the scene with Goku get pummeled and struggling to overcome it. This also could’ve been cut down (seriously, it’s almost like Toei was taking a shot at themselves by having Beerus tell Krillin to shut the fuck up. But I highly doubt they’re even aware of how bad it is).

I guarantee you 2/3 of the first half of next episode will be spent talking about how “awesome” mastered Ultra Instinct is and telling us stuff we can plainly see, as if the show is marketed towards blind people. That should’ve been in the second half of this episode.
I disagree immensely with what you're saying. The only reason any of this had any impact was BECAUSE of the length of time it took. And it honestly wasn't even that long. The whole sequence of Goku being overcome with Jiren's assault on the rock was a few minutes. If you don't have the patience for a few MINUTES of build up and suspense, then I don't know how you can sit through any piece of fiction. Don't you understand basic pacing and build up? You can't just throw in a bunch of small, short bursts of concepts with no level of anticipation and expect the pay off to mean anything. The only reason it's so satisfying to see mastered UI Goku own Jiren at the end like that is BECAUSE of the struggles he went through during the entirety of the episode. That scene would have zero impact otherwise. You have to let things simmer and build in order to have a narrative pay off.
As I said earlier, Goku’s “struggles” in the episode are worthless because he didn’t earn this, he didn’t work for it, and he didn’t deserve it. We didn’t see Goku struggle to achieve the state of Ultra Instinct, and we didn’t see him struggle to master it. We saw him struggle to beat an opponent stronger than him, which he’s done loads of times. There’s nothing fundamentally different about what Goku does here than any of his other fights. Whis’ explanation for Goku’s process was excellent, but that’s what we should’ve seen he and Vegeta training to do all throughout Super. We should’ve seen Whis describe this to them at the beginning, then again explain it as Goku finally achieves it.

Most of what we see from the scene you’re talking about is talking from the stands until Beerus finally tells everyone to shut the hell up. Even then, we still get cuts back to the stands for more unnecessary talking. This is how you pace a show if you have no idea what the hell you’re doing. It’s abysmal pacing. The entire ten minutes before this also could’ve been cut down to one or two minutes. Most of it was just reusing animation. We didn’t need to see that crap again. This was all stretched out and diluted unnecessarily to build hype for Mastered Instinct in the next episode. It’s probably smart from a business point, but that doesn’t make this episode any less of a drag.

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Artorias
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Re: Super Episode 129 (4 March 2018)

Post by Artorias » Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:25 am

Okara wrote:
Artorias wrote:
Okara wrote: We already knew that because they showed us in the preview. It’s in the episode title. These guys can’t keep the plot hidden to save their lives. They don’t need to dedicate the first half of the episode to telling us Goku is about to do what they outright told us will happen; most of it was just reused animation. The first ten minutes all could’ve taken place in a minute or two. The second half spent WAY too much time on the scene with Goku get pummeled and struggling to overcome it. This also could’ve been cut down (seriously, it’s almost like Toei was taking a shot at themselves by having Beerus tell Krillin to shut the fuck up. But I highly doubt they’re even aware of how bad it is).

I guarantee you 2/3 of the first half of next episode will be spent talking about how “awesome” mastered Ultra Instinct is and telling us stuff we can plainly see, as if the show is marketed towards blind people. That should’ve been in the second half of this episode.
I disagree immensely with what you're saying. The only reason any of this had any impact was BECAUSE of the length of time it took. And it honestly wasn't even that long. The whole sequence of Goku being overcome with Jiren's assault on the rock was a few minutes. If you don't have the patience for a few MINUTES of build up and suspense, then I don't know how you can sit through any piece of fiction. Don't you understand basic pacing and build up? You can't just throw in a bunch of small, short bursts of concepts with no level of anticipation and expect the pay off to mean anything. The only reason it's so satisfying to see mastered UI Goku own Jiren at the end like that is BECAUSE of the struggles he went through during the entirety of the episode. That scene would have zero impact otherwise. You have to let things simmer and build in order to have a narrative pay off.
As I said earlier, Goku’s “struggles” in the episode are worthless because he didn’t earn this, he didn’t work for it, and he didn’t deserve it. We didn’t see Goku struggle to achieve the state of Ultra Instinct, and we didn’t see him struggle to master it. We saw him struggle to beat an opponent stronger than him, which he’s done loads of times. There’s nothing fundamentally different about what Goku does here than any of his other fights. Whis’ explanation for Goku’s process was excellent, but that’s what we should’ve seen he and Vegeta training to do all throughout Super. We should’ve seen Whis describe this to them at the beginning, then again explain it as Goku finally achieves it.

Most of what we see from the scene you’re talking about is talking from the stands until Beerus finally tells everyone to shut the hell up. Even then, we still get cuts back to the stands for more unnecessary talking. This is how you pace a show if you have no idea what the hell you’re doing. It’s abysmal pacing. The entire ten minutes before this also could’ve been cut down to one or two minutes. Most of it was just reusing animation. We didn’t need to see that crap again. This was all stretched out and diluted unnecessarily to build hype for Mastered Instinct in the next episode. It’s probably smart from a business point, but that doesn’t make this episode any less of a drag.
I agree that UI wasn't properly built up and explained throughout the series, but that doesn't change the fact that during the actual episode itself in isolation, it needed the build up. Goku had to struggle to "turn on" the offensive aspect, completely let his mind go, empty all thoughts and block out all intrusions except the fight in front of him, as Whis so eloquently states. You can't just throw out the baby with the bathwater. "Welp, they did a shit job of executing the implementation of UI in the show, so therefor scrap any kind of narrative tension and just get to the point." I don't think that would've been a good move. The sins of the past shouldn't effect the ability of the future episodes to capitalize on what groundwork they have laid.

And yes, the talking was excessive and absurd, but as far as I'm concerned that's a separate issue from what I was discussing.

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Re: Super Episode 129 (4 March 2018)

Post by Okara » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:03 am

Artorias wrote:
Okara wrote:
Artorias wrote:
I disagree immensely with what you're saying. The only reason any of this had any impact was BECAUSE of the length of time it took. And it honestly wasn't even that long. The whole sequence of Goku being overcome with Jiren's assault on the rock was a few minutes. If you don't have the patience for a few MINUTES of build up and suspense, then I don't know how you can sit through any piece of fiction. Don't you understand basic pacing and build up? You can't just throw in a bunch of small, short bursts of concepts with no level of anticipation and expect the pay off to mean anything. The only reason it's so satisfying to see mastered UI Goku own Jiren at the end like that is BECAUSE of the struggles he went through during the entirety of the episode. That scene would have zero impact otherwise. You have to let things simmer and build in order to have a narrative pay off.
As I said earlier, Goku’s “struggles” in the episode are worthless because he didn’t earn this, he didn’t work for it, and he didn’t deserve it. We didn’t see Goku struggle to achieve the state of Ultra Instinct, and we didn’t see him struggle to master it. We saw him struggle to beat an opponent stronger than him, which he’s done loads of times. There’s nothing fundamentally different about what Goku does here than any of his other fights. Whis’ explanation for Goku’s process was excellent, but that’s what we should’ve seen he and Vegeta training to do all throughout Super. We should’ve seen Whis describe this to them at the beginning, then again explain it as Goku finally achieves it.

Most of what we see from the scene you’re talking about is talking from the stands until Beerus finally tells everyone to shut the hell up. Even then, we still get cuts back to the stands for more unnecessary talking. This is how you pace a show if you have no idea what the hell you’re doing. It’s abysmal pacing. The entire ten minutes before this also could’ve been cut down to one or two minutes. Most of it was just reusing animation. We didn’t need to see that crap again. This was all stretched out and diluted unnecessarily to build hype for Mastered Instinct in the next episode. It’s probably smart from a business point, but that doesn’t make this episode any less of a drag.
I agree that UI wasn't properly built up and explained throughout the series, but that doesn't change the fact that during the actual episode itself in isolation, it needed the build up. Goku had to struggle to "turn on" the offensive aspect, completely let his mind go, empty all thoughts and block out all intrusions except the fight in front of him, as Whis so eloquently states. You can't just throw out the baby with the bathwater. "Welp, they did a shit job of executing the implementation of UI in the show, so therefor scrap any kind of narrative tension and just get to the point." I don't think that would've been a good move. The sins of the past shouldn't effect the ability of the future episodes to capitalize on what groundwork they have laid.

And yes, the talking was excessive and absurd, but as far as I'm concerned that's a separate issue from what I was discussing.
You’re correct in that they should still make an attempt at a narrative, and some of my impatience probably stems from my general frustration with how Ultra Instinct was handled in general.

However, I still think there was too much time-wasting going on in this episode. Much of the fat could’ve been trimmed and you’d get the same result. That, or they should’ve shown us more of what was going on in Goku’s head and the conflict within in his flawed instinct. Instead of just telling us Goku still has trouble attacking on instinct, they should’ve shown us the struggle in more detailed choreography. They already told us this was an issue; we really didn’t to be told again with a bunch of reused scenes.

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