Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Birusu16]

So not only is Goku not angel level but there's a good chance he's still not above Beerus?

At the very least he's on the same level as Beerus, but he's probably stronger. Just not significantly so. Beerus wouldn't make that statement if he was certain MUI Goku was weaker than him.

[Kenneth La Torre]

There going to be more info being realeased through out the day. So we may even get statements on jirens power as well. Just imagine that line being brought up at te beginning of episode 130, and then jiren and goku just keep powering up from there . That would be priceless

[Legion]

At least this confirm that omen Goku, Vegeta, Kefla etc are weaker, people like it or no.

[HeroR]

At least this confirm that omen Goku, Vegeta, Kefla etc are weaker, people like it or no.

Not really since that only tells us that UI Goku is stronger, not that everything else was weaker. Especially since it was stated by U11 god that Toppo was no different than a God of Destruction and the only thing Beerus said was that Toppo needed time to charge Haki, which isn't an indication of strength.

Although, Kelfa was never stronger than a God of Destruction. Vegeta after his pride boost is debatable since he used Final Explosion. Omen's problem was that it lacked attack power despite having nearly perfect dodge.

[Legion]

At least this confirm that omen Goku, Vegeta, Kefla etc are weaker, people like it or no.

Not really since that only tells us that UI Goku is stronger, not that everything else was weaker. Especially since it was stated by U11 god that Toppo was no different than a God of Destruction and the only thing Beerus said was that Toppo needed time to charge Haki, which isn't an indication of strength.

Although, Kelfa was never stronger than a God of Destruction. Vegeta after his pride boost is debatable since he used Final Explosion. Omen's problem was that it lacked attack power despite having nearly perfect dodge.

Dude, come on. If Toei said only now that "MUI Goku might be stronger than Beerus" it's mean that any other version of Goku is weaker. This is dragon ball, it's not so complicated. Since Beerus is a moving goal post, i'm not so surprised.

And no, it's not his "ego". He fullly admits that MUI Goku may be above him by his own.

[HeroR]

Dude, come on. If Toei said only now that "MUI Goku might be stronger than Beerus" it's mean that any other version of Goku is weaker. This is dragon ball, it's not so complicated. Since Beerus is a moving goal post, i'm not so surprised.

And no, it's not his "ego". He fullly admits that MUI Goku may be above him by his own.

That isn't 'Toei' that's Beerus. And I already said the problem with Omen was that it lack powered because Goku couldn't attack with his full power.

Assumption that it isn't ego.

[ZenkaiBoosts]

At least this confirm that omen Goku, Vegeta, Kefla etc are weaker, people like it or no.

Not really since that only tells us that UI Goku is stronger, not that everything else was weaker. Especially since it was stated by U11 god that Toppo was no different than a God of Destruction and the only thing Beerus said was that Toppo needed time to charge Haki, which isn't an indication of strength.

Although, Kelfa was never stronger than a God of Destruction. Vegeta after his pride boost is debatable since he used Final Explosion. Omen's problem was that it lacked attack power despite having nearly perfect dodge.

Dude, come on. If Toei said only now that "MUI Goku might be stronger than Beerus" it's mean that any other version of Goku is weaker. This is dragon ball, it's not so complicated. Since Beerus is a moving goal post, i'm not so surprised.

And no, it's not his "ego". He fullly admits that MUI Goku may be above him by his own.

It reminds me of when Beerus tried to downplay Belmon beating him (or claimed it was just in an arm wrestling match)


Even in episode 53, when Gowasu even questions if Goku is as strong as Beerus, Beerus gets upset and basicly says you dare say he rivals me!?

Beerus has too much of an ego to ever out right admit someone is flat out stronger. Even if Beerus was out right defeated he would be the type to make excuses like "lucky punch, I slipped, I wasnt healthy, I'm still superior"

For Beerus to even state that MUI Goku could be more powerful is huge progress for Beerus and shows that in reality MUI Goku is probably wayyy stronger lol

Goku overcame the gap by such a large margin not even Beerus could stay in denial, and had to resort to "well he 'could' be stronger then me"

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

In order to beat someone who may surpass the realm of Hakaishin, so to must Goku surpass their power.

The question remains, though...... just how much?

[Legion]

Not really since that only tells us that UI Goku is stronger, not that everything else was weaker. Especially since it was stated by U11 god that Toppo was no different than a God of Destruction and the only thing Beerus said was that Toppo needed time to charge Haki, which isn't an indication of strength.

Although, Kelfa was never stronger than a God of Destruction. Vegeta after his pride boost is debatable since he used Final Explosion. Omen's problem was that it lacked attack power despite having nearly perfect dodge.

Dude, come on. If Toei said only now that "MUI Goku might be stronger than Beerus" it's mean that any other version of Goku is weaker. This is dragon ball, it's not so complicated. Since Beerus is a moving goal post, i'm not so surprised.

And no, it's not his "ego". He fullly admits that MUI Goku may be above him by his own.

It reminds me of when Beerus tried to downplay Belmon beating him (or claimed it was just in an arm wrestling match)


Even in episode 53, when Gowasu even questions if Goku is as strong as Beerus, Beerus gets upset and basicly says you dare say he rivals me!?

Beerus has too much of an ego to ever out right admit someone is flat out stronger. Even if Beerus was out right defeated he would be the type to make excuses like "lucky punch, I slipped, I wasnt healthy, I'm still superior"

For Beerus to even state that MUI Goku could be more powerful is huge progress for Beerus and shows that in reality MUI Goku is probably wayyy stronger lol

Goku overcame the gap by such a large margin not even Beerus could stay in denial, and had to resort to "well he 'could' be stronger then me"

He never downplayed Belmod (or Quitela in the manga). An arm wrestling match is not a fight. Nothing strange.

Meh in episode 53 Gowasu questions if Goku SSJ2 is strong as Beerus. Of course that Beerus gets upset lol

This is just your headcanon because you want to believe that Beerus is a fodder compared to Goku. You can believe what you want of course.

[Bullza]

So perhaps it goes like this

Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku
Full Power Jiren
Beerus
Non Full Power Jiren
Ultra Instinct Omen Goku
Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta
Any of the Gods of Destruction

[HeroR]

So perhaps it goes like this

Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku
Full Power Jiren
Beerus
Non Full Power Jiren
Ultra Instinct Omen Goku
Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta
Any of the Gods of Destruction

Whis said that Jiren surpassed a God of Destruction when he was casually holding back the Spirit Bomb. So not sure why only full-powered Jiren would be stronger than Beerus. And why is Beerus above all the other gods? Not even the manga support this.

[Bullza]

Whis said that Jiren surpassed a God of Destruction when he was casually holding back the Spirit Bomb.

He never said that.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So perhaps it goes like this

Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku
Full Power Jiren
Beerus
Non Full Power Jiren
Ultra Instinct Omen Goku
Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta
Any of the Gods of Destruction

Whis said that Jiren surpassed a God of Destruction when he was casually holding back the Spirit Bomb. So not sure why only full-powered Jiren would be stronger than Beerus. And why is Beerus above all the other gods? Not even the manga support this.

It stems from the idea of Beerus being slightly above the other Gods of Destruction. I can understand WHY folks would want it to be this way, since it keeps Beerus on a bit of a pedestal, and the idea of BEERUS, the guy who was touted for being insurmountable within a series all about surpassing the next villain, finally being surpassed can be a hard thing to sell to people; people got used to Beerus simply being untouchable.

With regards to reading Jiren's power, folks continue to forget that reading people's power at a given moment isn't the only way to gauge how strong they are. Reading the degree to which they suppress themselves can also give you an idea of just how strong they could be, as seen when Future Trunks figured out that Goku Black had gone past the level of power that SS3 Goku showed him when he was gauging how much Goku Black was suppressing himself in his fight with SS2 Goku.

[Saturnine]

I don't think anyone would insist that MUI Goku is below Beerus. What's good though is that less ppl are gonna keep thinking that SSJG Goku is 60% Beerus now

[TheSaiyanGod]

Which line is it, I can get it translated by tomorrow if you give it to me, I've got my own dependable translators. I re-watched the episode the only thing that was implied is that Frieza is confident enough to take on Goku, which I assume you're coming from. If that's the case it's too vague to imply he can sense Goku Ki. Doesn't the series make it evident that only god ki users can sense god ki unless it's the pressure or something else.

I never claimed that his stamina doesn't drain at all, I'm implying that the same stamina issues from Resurrection F doesn't apply to his perfected Golden Form, though we never seen any stamina issues for the perfected golden form. It took Goku a few episode or a few minutes to gather enough Ki to go SSB after the fight with Jiren, after battling Kefla he can only switch to Blue for only initially periods such as a Kamekamka or blowing away opponent when just powering up. He wasn't able to maintain it until a episode 122. This isn't too different to Frieza having the staimia to go Golden not long after taking on Toppo Hakai blast which is worse than the spirit bomb in my opinion and later taking on a ki blast from Jiren that was meant for SSBKK Goku and Beyond Blue Vegeta. I don't think being angered solves his stamina issue he was just as pissed when fighting Toppo.

Why would you bring up Mona statement if there's no reason to find it credible, I think it's evident that she's upset that Vegeta ki blasted her and ran away, hence why she thinks it's a cheap shot rather than exposing a weakness of some kind. I find feats more credible than statements to be honest.

It was near the beginning of 25. Also, Hit can sense god ki since he felt Goku's multiplier for the Kaioken in 39. Trunks also felt Vegetto Blue ki after he got Super Saiyan Rage when before he couldn't sense Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta, showing that mortals of a certain power can sense god ki. In fact, this was stated back when Vegeta was training.

Golden Freeza still drains stamina, just not as badly, hence why he has only used that form a few times. He used Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan again in 118 along with the Kaioken, which was after Kelfa. Anger have make people stronger and dumber. Especially when considered less than two minute past and Freeza got beating up several times after taking that Haki blast. When did he take a ki blast from Jiren meant for Goku and Vegeta. Freeza tried to blindside Jiren, Jiren shut him down, Freeza got pissed and went gold and charged Jiren, Jiren stopped him and punched him out of gold.

There isn't anything to say she isn't creditable other than 'well, she was mad' which isn't evidence. And if you only find feats creditable, then Krillin much be closed to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku's level since his feats showed him holding back the Kamehameha, despite the show telling us that he stood no chance in hell.

Trunks's speech is at least subjective. Vegetto was releasing a large amount of Ki in SSB and consequently a great deal of pressure. it is normal for Trunks to be impressed with his Ki, that does not mean he felt God Ki. The speech of Freeza was also subjective, we can only say that Hitto feels God Ki.

About Kale's power, she was able to trade a few shots with Goku SSG tired, but she was obviously at a disadvantage. a simple Ki Blast of the Goku required a lot of effort for Kale to be able to fight back, Shin said that Goku was in a different class from the two Saiyans and Goku was going to finish the fight there

[Kenneth La Torre]

FUCK YEAAAAAJ

Jiren wins against goku, and freeza gets the win
https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/stat ... 9811394561

Sorry, I was on jirens side

[HeroR]

Whis said that Jiren surpassed a God of Destruction when he was casually holding back the Spirit Bomb.

He never said that.

Whis gave his entire speech about a mortal stronger than a God of Destruction at that point.

[ZombieVito]

A tired Goku who could still go Blue and then stack Kaioken not even a minute later. Seriously, how 'tired' are you going to make him? And he tried to eliminate them by destroying the platform under Kale, not directly attacking her.

It's really irrelevant actually. The fact is she is SSG tier and Gohan is Blue tier so she still can't beat the Namekians.

Just because she wanted to fight him more doesn't mean she was holding back for the purpose of dragging out the fight. She's implying she wanted the fight to prolong despite Goku having stamina issue to keep up, not that she specifically claim that she held back. After all she calls him a worthy opponent in the end which implies he was giving her trouble hence she wouldn't be holding back. Her holding back is too contradictive to the other various following instances in the context I already listed. A full power SSB was implied to be troublesome to SSJ1 Kefla which was implied by Vados and Champa, with fatigue SSBKK Goku overpowering her with the spectators claiming Kefla is beyond her limits(stated by Roshi) and is resorting to saiyan blood driving her(stated by Whis). It's contradictive to her being Genkidama level or even SSBKKx20 considering this was a fatigue Goku going normal kaioken as he only yells kaioken without a stack multiplier with stamina to low to reach x20. If you go back the Whis statement which you brought up, it's likely Whis is comparing Kefla in a ability/role fashion, especially when in latter of the statement he claims that Kefla acted as a stimulus rather than literally rivalling the spirit bomb in power. It's important to know that when Dragon ball uses the term "rival" it doesn't mean match in raw power as even SSB Goku was stated to rival the Gods despite he being nowhere near their power. I also want to bring up even the narrator implies the overall extreme battle being the trigger of Goku form rather than Kefla ki even Whis claims Kefla's ki rather than kick, if that means something.

Whis literally said she rivaled the Genkidama's power.

That's as clear cut as it gets.

[Legion]

So perhaps it goes like this

Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku
Full Power Jiren
Beerus
Non Full Power Jiren
Ultra Instinct Omen Goku
Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta
Any of the Gods of Destruction

By spoilers

Jiren
MUI Goku
Beerus

Omen Goku

But it's implied that the gap is small. Still, Toriyama destroyed ultra instinct hype in 2 seconds

[HeroR]

A tired Goku who could still go Blue and then stack Kaioken not even a minute later. Seriously, how 'tired' are you going to make him? And he tried to eliminate them by destroying the platform under Kale, not directly attacking her.

It's really irrelevant actually. The fact is she is SSG tier and Gohan is Blue tier so she still can't beat the Namekians.

Just because she wanted to fight him more doesn't mean she was holding back for the purpose of dragging out the fight. She's implying she wanted the fight to prolong despite Goku having stamina issue to keep up, not that she specifically claim that she held back. After all she calls him a worthy opponent in the end which implies he was giving her trouble hence she wouldn't be holding back. Her holding back is too contradictive to the other various following instances in the context I already listed. A full power SSB was implied to be troublesome to SSJ1 Kefla which was implied by Vados and Champa, with fatigue SSBKK Goku overpowering her with the spectators claiming Kefla is beyond her limits(stated by Roshi) and is resorting to saiyan blood driving her(stated by Whis). It's contradictive to her being Genkidama level or even SSBKKx20 considering this was a fatigue Goku going normal kaioken as he only yells kaioken without a stack multiplier with stamina to low to reach x20. If you go back the Whis statement which you brought up, it's likely Whis is comparing Kefla in a ability/role fashion, especially when in latter of the statement he claims that Kefla acted as a stimulus rather than literally rivalling the spirit bomb in power. It's important to know that when Dragon ball uses the term "rival" it doesn't mean match in raw power as even SSB Goku was stated to rival the Gods despite he being nowhere near their power. I also want to bring up even the narrator implies the overall extreme battle being the trigger of Goku form rather than Kefla ki even Whis claims Kefla's ki rather than kick, if that means something.

Whis literally said she rivaled the Genkidama's power.

That's as clear cut as it gets.

Except the only thing said about Gohan is that he rivaled Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku. You know, rival in the same way Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan rivals the Gods of Destruction.

And it isn’t irreverent since you said ‘a tired Super Saiyan God Goku’ when then went Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan less than a minute later.