"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[perucho1990]

Agreed. This time in particular, Goku had EVERYTHING IN THE BAG in order to be able to actually win this time (UI) and yet they still blew it!!!! I seriously do not understand Toriyama and Toei. It’s like they really hate Goku - their own main character!

If Goku was going to win in ANY arc in Super, it would’ve been THIS ONE! With Ultra Instinct fully mastered aswell as the fact that the show is ENDING! Especially for those 2 reasons. But no they had to go and do something totally unexpected again. This is NOT a GAME. This is an actual story that’s being told here. I hate the idea that people always have that there needs to be “plot twists” and how the show should be “unpredictable” or “go against the norms” that’s totally unnecessary bs. The writers shouldn’t opt to play games and mess with our heads. It’s a serious story THAT HAS TO MAKE SENSE. Above anything else “Drama” shouldn’t be allowed to get in the way of that.

The way you are ranting is so, so similar to the ones in Pokemon communties when Ash lost to Alan in XYZ, Ash also had everything in the bag in order to win and he chokes. Ironically speaking Tomioka also writes Pokemon.

Oh and Gokus character got damaged thanks to GT with the Goku time meme and then he became full waku waku mode. For the good of the franchise, the Goku Time needed to die imo.

[HeroR]

How about this:

Goku is superior to Jiren but runs out of stamina and drops out of MUI and loses to jiren.

Now this way goku is shown to be the strongest non angel in atleast 8 universes, is that better?

I would call it lame since they pulled that with Vegetto Blue and Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks going further back. Heck, they did this with Super Saiyan 3 Goku vs Kid Buu. If Goku is going to lose, at least be original about it.

I'd rather have Goku beat Jiren with Mastered Ultra Instinct, and then in the process of eliminating him, he passess out of the form from buring through all of its energy and accidently rings himself out.

Strangely, I would almost be okay with that. Give Goku an Itachi moment.

[Miracles]

Also those who thought Jiren or MUI Goku is stronger than Beerus is pulling their eyelashes.

According to new spoilers, beerus says something along the lines of MUI Goku might be stronger than him so it goes like

JIren > MUI Goku > beerus

"Might..." Which means it is uncertain if MUI is stronger than the king of the jungle.

[Black Hawk]

Here's what I hope happens, as simple as it is: Goku burns through almost all of Jiren's power before losing, leaving him weak/exhausted enough for Frieza to eliminate him without it feeling "wrong".

I really, really want to agree with this sentiment, but, to me, it feels "wrong" for Freeza to eliminate Jiren in general.

[ToshioWrites]

I wonder if frieza will eliminate jiren or straight up kill him with a death beam through the heart. In episode 127 he had lost his sanity and said screw the rules, i'm gonna kill you

[RedHeat]

Do you guys remember that one dude who used to post here a lot but quit after episode 100? I wonder how he's feeling right about now.

[sintzu]

If Goku just straight up won, then what in the world would Frieza's inclusion in the tournament be for?

This is the problem, if Goku wins Freeza is wasted and if Freeza steps in and gets the win Goku's wasted. The very simple fix to this would've been letting Freeza take down Dyspo, Let Gohan take down Kefla & give Goku the win against Jiren, this way all 4 main fighters get a big win.

[HeroR]

Goku doesn't win. Good. Great. Fantastic. This is what I have been saying for a LONG time. That Goku cannot win and he must not win. Jiren is too powerful. He's always been too powerful. Goku doesn't need to win either for us to see just how amazing he has become in his journey since the first chapter of the manga. Him mastering Ultra Instinct IS the win. He doesn't need to beat Jiren. And Freeza being the last man standing is the best possible outcome and gives even more credence to his return. Plus, it'll be so good if he does his O HOHOHO when he wins. Even if some of us predicted that Freeza would be the last one and Goku lost, it's still the best narrative result. The fact that UI even let Goku climb so much was already pushing it for me despite being a God Technique. Now.. let's see if Freeza actually gets his wish whatever he decides to wish for. I'm also ecstatic to say I called the fight continuing on to 131 and why Takahashi would be on it. So great. Hopefully it all looks and plays extremely well.

Remember when SSG was introduced and Goku didn't win either?

Which is why Goku losing is predictable. And we don’t even know that Goku lost because ‘Jiren was too strong’, which is really lousy since it’s like saying Super Saiyan Goku shouldn’t won on Namek.

Everything people thought of was predictable. It was either a tie and freeza wins unconscious. Goku wins. Goku wins but Freeza blasts him in the back. Jiren wins (which is the best) and freeza blasts him from the back. The most unlikely ending but was also a possibility was Freeza getting his wish as the ultimate being. It wouldn't happen though cause this is before Oob. The one that came from this is the best. Goku doesn't win which is usually good. Freeza is the last man standing. & Jiren beats Goku. Perfect.

And in the namek arc, Goku and Freeza were relatively equals until Freeza reveals he was using 2% of his power. It was assumed his final form was just that. Goku had his Kaioken to even things out until SSJ came and then Freeza goes 100%. They didn't have too much of a gap in power to begin with. In this arc, Jiren is revealed to be the most powerful mortal that surpasses his GoD and separately, Goku and Vegeta were just not GoD level. He was extremely hyped up from the very beginning to be too powerful and it actually makes more sense for him NOT to lose when there was nothing there to make Goku and Jiren equals. Even in the most recent episode, Jiren STILL wasn't going at full power. Narratively and thematically, Goku losing is great. Goku was nowhere near Jiren's level and Goku's story has never been about winning even if the situation calls for it. And, it feels so good for Jiren's conviction to win over friendship and trust. Sometimes, those things are not enough.

Goku winning isn’t that predictable looking at Super and Goku’s history with touruments.

Dub on the 2%. And Goku in the manga mopped 100% Freeza. The anime made the fight seem closer.

Freeza was hyped as the strongest being in the universe that even the gods feared and had Vegeta, biggest badass at the time, shitting himself.

That’s fine, if every arc in Super didn’t used that trope including the Future Trunks Saga. You know, when the good guys outright lost. Or even Battle of Gods where Goku lost despite everything.

[sintzu]

Goku's character got damaged thanks to GT with the Goku time meme and then he became full waku waku mode. For the good of the franchise, the Goku Time needed to die imo.

And now it's the other extreme, Goku is always being hyped up just to lose. Would it be so hard to give us something like the original manga where it's a middle road with him losing some fights and winning others ? Doing that keeps things interesting and unpredictable.

[Michsi]

Here's what I hope happens, as simple as it is: Goku burns through almost all of Jiren's power before losing, leaving him weak/exhausted enough for Frieza to eliminate him without it feeling "wrong".

That's pretty much a certainty. As I said before, Jiren will most likely win by the skin of his teeth, and then we'll have comments from other characters about how the only reason Jiren managed it was because he hasn't fought as much as Goku during the entire duration of the TOP so he was more than rested, etc.

[Kenneth La Torre]

So how long will the war continue until people accept goku losing? I’m giving it until next week.

[sintzu]

So how long will the war continue until people accept goku losing? I’m giving it until next week.

As things stand it's a huge mistake but I'm willing to keep an open mind as there's a slight chance it's done with a twist that somewhat makes it OK.

[Nero<>Akira]

Which is why Goku losing is predictable. And we don’t even know that Goku lost because ‘Jiren was too strong’, which is really lousy since it’s like saying Super Saiyan Goku shouldn’t won on Namek.

Everything people thought of was predictable. It was either a tie and freeza wins unconscious. Goku wins. Goku wins but Freeza blasts him in the back. Jiren wins (which is the best) and freeza blasts him from the back. The most unlikely ending but was also a possibility was Freeza getting his wish as the ultimate being. It wouldn't happen though cause this is before Oob. The one that came from this is the best. Goku doesn't win which is usually good. Freeza is the last man standing. & Jiren beats Goku. Perfect.

And in the namek arc, Goku and Freeza were relatively equals until Freeza reveals he was using 2% of his power. It was assumed his final form was just that. Goku had his Kaioken to even things out until SSJ came and then Freeza goes 100%. They didn't have too much of a gap in power to begin with. In this arc, Jiren is revealed to be the most powerful mortal that surpasses his GoD and separately, Goku and Vegeta were just not GoD level. He was extremely hyped up from the very beginning to be too powerful and it actually makes more sense for him NOT to lose when there was nothing there to make Goku and Jiren equals. Even in the most recent episode, Jiren STILL wasn't going at full power. Narratively and thematically, Goku losing is great. Goku was nowhere near Jiren's level and Goku's story has never been about winning even if the situation calls for it. And, it feels so good for Jiren's conviction to win over friendship and trust. Sometimes, those things are not enough.

Goku winning isn’t that predictable looking at Super and Goku’s history with touruments.

Dub on the 2%. And Goku in the manga mopped 100% Freeza. The anime made the fight seem closer.

Freeza was hyped as the strongest being in the universe that even the gods feared and had Vegeta, biggest badass at the time, shitting himself.

That’s fine, if every arc in Super didn’t used that trope including the Future Trunks Saga. You know, when the good guys outright lost. Or even Battle of Gods where Goku lost despite everything.

It ultimately doesn't change the fact that Freeza and Goku were equal in the beginning until Freeza reveals he has more power and both characters one upped each other consistently. Even in the manga, Freeza got some good shots when he went to 100%. Jiren from the very beginning has been stated to have so much power that not even his God could beat. Goku and Vegeta were nowhere near Beerus let alone another GoD. The real person hyped up was Jiren and it should stand that he does not lose. He hasn't been using his full power since the beginning and was always shown to not be struggling until the last ep. The hype and build up is different for both characters and so were Goku's levels when he began his fight with Freeza and Jiren. Keep in mind, I would've been ok if Goku won if the fight was great and a struggle. But this is better. If he won by a landslide.. THAT would have been bad. Also, the buildup for Goku to win this tournament is precisely why its not predictable compared to the real outcome. The most consistent theory was that Goku would win his match with Jiren even after Goku lost his matches prior to this arc.

[Vegeta_Sama]

I wish Super would have treated the new forms a bit better. Super Saiyan God was super underutilized , and SS Blue became a joke after it managed to fail every fight it's been in. The fact that it was used in every episode, including ones where it shouldn't have, didn't help either. Now from the look of things, Ultra Instinct is gonna suffer the same fate. Such a shame, they did a good job back in the special at making it look powerful. I don't know about you guys, but the original Super Saiyan transformations still feel more powerful (even though they clearly aren't) and with much more weight behind them. They actually mattered

[ToshioWrites]

I wish Super would have treated the new forms a bit better. Super Saiyan God was super underutilized , and SS Blue became a joke after it managed to fail every fight it's been in. The fact that it was used in every episode, including ones where it shouldn't have, didn't help either. Now from the look of things, Ultra Instinct is gonna suffer the same fate. Such a shame, they did a good job back in the special at making it look powerful. I don't know about you guys, but the original Super Saiyan transformations still feel more powerful (even though they clearly aren't) and with much more weight behind them. They actually mattered

ss1 and ss2 felt more powerful. ss3 accomplished nothing and since then every new form has ultimately been disappointing other than

UI omen beating kefla and ssb evolution beating toppo but never anything vs a main antagonist

[sintzu]

ss3 accomplished nothing.

It beat Hirudigarn (or whatever his name is). Apart form that, it's true that it didn't do much in the original manga but that was established from the very start as a form that is very hard to hold. However, it had a huge sense of power behind it, you could tell from Goku and Gotenks' transformations that it was a very powerful form, something the new forms haven't been able to convey despite being stronger.

[Nero<>Akira]

Goku's character got damaged thanks to GT with the Goku time meme and then he became full waku waku mode. For the good of the franchise, the Goku Time needed to die imo.

And now it's the other extreme, Goku is always being hyped up just to lose. Would it be so hard to give us something like the original manga where it's a middle road with him losing some fights and winning others ? Doing that keeps things interesting and unpredictable.

You mean like when Goku beat Freeza in F? Let's be honest he did. The fight was over lol He beat Botamo. He was about to beat Frost except he cheated. Goku beat Zamasu in a sparring match. Goku beat Bergamo. He beat the Danger Triangle with Vegeta, he got some ringouts here and there, & he defeated Kale & Caulifla both unfused and fused. Goku has won in the series plenty and has gotten a lot of screentime in this arc. Goku's treatment has never been better.

[Lord Frieza]

I would call it lame since they pulled that with Vegetto Blue and Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks going further back. Heck, they did this with Super Saiyan 3 Goku vs Kid Buu. If Goku is going to lose, at least be original about it.

It's better Goku and Jiren if Goku loses properly. Jiren's build up is justified and Goku gave it his all, it would feel real cheap for Goku to lose because of that excuses again.

Except that’s a repeat of 110 and Battle of Gods.

The hard line is Goku's losing either way, regardless of what any of us would proffer.

So what looks better for Goku and the foe? Goku loses due to stamina lose (which makes him looks like an idote for not saving stamina earlier, makes all that recharging while fight stuff more bs then it was and cheapens Jiren's victory) or Goku loses to a genuinely superior warrior who based on the preview he's pretty evenly match with even at full power (which is different to his fight with Beerus because BoG is really just one big game for Beerus and sick joke on the heroes and his fight with Hit were both warriors are fighting for no life and death reason and one his handicapped).

For me personally if Goku's going to lose a fight that could cost him his universe, the later option is the better way to go about it.

[Alruneia]

Here's what I hope happens, as simple as it is: Goku burns through almost all of Jiren's power before losing, leaving him weak/exhausted enough for Frieza to eliminate him without it feeling "wrong".

I really, really want to agree with this sentiment, but, to me, it feels "wrong" for Freeza to eliminate Jiren in general.

I do get where you're coming from with this. That suggestion is the best compromise I could think of, where Goku wouldn't win without Frieza and Frieza certainly wouldn't win without Goku. I don't see any better way to "save" the situation.

If Goku just straight up won, then what in the world would Frieza's inclusion in the tournament be for?

This is the problem, if Goku wins Freeza is wasted and if Freeza steps in and gets the win Goku's wasted. The very simple fix to this would've been letting Freeza take down Dyspo, Let Gohan take down Kefla & give Goku the win against Jiren, this way all 4 main fighters get a big win.

Yeah, it is a bit of a lose-lose at this point, and as you point out, the "fix" lies in the plot having to be different in points we've already passed.

Here's what I hope happens, as simple as it is: Goku burns through almost all of Jiren's power before losing, leaving him weak/exhausted enough for Frieza to eliminate him without it feeling "wrong".

That's pretty much a certainty. As I said before, Jiren will most likely win by the skin of his teeth, and then we'll have comments from other characters about how the only reason Jiren managed it was because he hasn't fought as much as Goku during the entire duration of the TOP so he was more than rested, etc.

If this was any other show than Super, it'd be such a certainty that it wouldn't be necessary to mention it at all. But since it is Super we're talking about, I'm afraid power scaling (or what's left of it) might get thrown out the window one last time.

[ekrolo2]

Freeza winning sounds too interesting actually be true.