"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[ToshioWrites]

I also think we need to wait for context. Goku losing doesn't necessarily mean MUI isn't all its cracked up to be. Whis specifically mentioned how taxing this state is last episode and for all the complaints we've had about these guys regaining their stamina ASAP, this could be the time where it costs Goku. Think of it like Revival F.
Golden Freeza was superior to SSB but stamina cost him.

[Appers]

I had a feeling that Freeza would be the one winning, though how he'd pull it off would have been anyone's guess.

Not really bummed about Goku losing either since that just means he still has a reason to keep pushing himself to get even stronger than he is now, and more importantly, it means that dragonball has a reason to continue in the future.

[BlueBasilisk]

I think it's objectively bad because it's incredibly unsatisfying to watch a character go through an entire arc "mastering" this impressive form, only for it to amount to nothing in the end. To put it bluntly, I think that's a bad story structure that will cause the arc to lose it's impact down the road when we look back, because you realize that all of those moments, all of that build up, all of those interactions meant nothing in the end. There's a reason most of the classic stories in literature, film, etc. all end with some form of the hero's triumph. It's not just a coincidence that traditional story structure dealing with the hero's journey has remained the same for thousands of years. It's because it's effective.

Now, doing a "twist" ending where the hero doesn't win can totally be effective, there's no denying that. My problem is that literally every arc of this show has done this, to the point where it's not a twist at all. The novelty has worn off, and now it's just embarrassing for the characters and annoying for the audience. It's unsatisfying and a buzzkill as a viewer to sit through arc after arc of the good guys just losing over and over.

Since Battle of Gods, Toriyama has turned Goku into Ash Ketchum. Makes it to the big leagues, always loses because of some bullshit. Even though the heroes have come out ahead in most of these arcs (Future Trunks being the exception), there's nothing satisfying about it because they're bailed out by some other circumstances. Since we haven't heard "Our Hero, Son Goku" yet, I'm entirely willing to bet that's what's going to happen here, that despite Goku losing he'll still nab the reward for being Zeno's favorite or the flashiest fighter or whatever, or Zeno, Goku and Jiren will feel blueballed by the outcome too and something will happen as a result of that. But I'll still feel bitter about it because there's no reason he couldn't have just earned that win if he's going to benefit anyway.

On the bright side, it's completely killed my hype for the upcoming movie. Won't be a problem waiting til December anymore. Won't be surprised if he loses in that too.

I also think we need to wait for context. Goku losing doesn't necessarily mean MUI isn't all its cracked up to be. Whis specifically mentioned how taxing this state is last episode and for all the complaints we've had about these guys regaining their stamina ASAP, this could be the time where it costs Goku. Think of it like Revival F.
Golden Freeza was superior to SSB but stamina cost him.

I'm not sure it really matters since the form won't have a chance to redeem itself in Super.

[jeffbr92]

Is it serious that Goku fans are complaining?

Goku had two fights in the exhibition tournament, 6 fights in the recruitment and many other fights in the tournament, much more than everyone. I would say that he still had an excessive focus on this tournament and even took the shine out of some other characters. He dominated the UI in minutes, overcame the Hakaishins and his fans still complain because he will lose?

And people still say that Vegeta fans are never satisfied?

Goku is the protagonist also Vegeta had more impressive feats in Super overrall than him, it's been a long time since the last Goku had a main victory, he deserves it.

I think even when the anime comes back, Goku'll still use Omen sometimes and treat MUI like a power-up to that.
Just a feeling based on the ending and the other picture.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

As many though these would be last man standing on the ToP based on the ending:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Except the Dragon Balls goes to the best fighter, nothing about last man standing.

Really? When this was said?

I wouldn't be surprised if the episode preview summary was full of shit and we get something completely different in the episode itself. Wouldn't be the first time...

When was the last time?

[Extreme_kai]

I had a feeling that Freeza would be the one winning, though how he'd pull it off would have been anyone's guess.

Not really bummed about Goku losing either since that just means he still has a reason to keep pushing himself to get even stronger than he is now, and more importantly, it means that dragonball has a reason to continue in the future.

That's what I'm saying, I don't see how this is not good for his character. He went to a tournament against different universes and met the strongest mortal he's ever faced on top of all the god's, angels and stronger universe's that didn't participate. If I was Goku I would be in heaven at the prospects of stronger foes then me. I know a lot of people are saying Goku lost more than he won in super, but I don't care about mini-boss characters I care about the Big Bad's. Goku has beat almost all the big bads, even when he lost, no other Saiyan or Zfighter beat them either(except for Gohan). Even still, usually he's the solution to whatever problem they're having.I consider Jiren a big bad because if he won their universe would be destroyed, technically he's the biggest threat they've ever faced. At the end of the day, Goku still gets 's shine over other characters, last I checked it's not Vegeta or Gohan "last man standing" against Jiren.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Is it serious that Goku fans are complaining?

Goku had two fights in the exhibition tournament, 6 fights in the recruitment and many other fights in the tournament, much more than everyone. I would say that he still had an excessive focus on this tournament and even took the shine out of some other characters. He dominated the UI in minutes, overcame the Hakaishins and his fans still complain because he will lose?

And people still say that Vegeta fans are never satisfied?

Goku is the protagonist also Vegeta had more impressive feats in Super overrall than him, it's been a long time since the last Goku had a main victory, he deserves it.

I think even when the anime comes back, Goku'll still use Omen sometimes and treat MUI like a power-up to that.
Just a feeling based on the ending and the other picture.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

As many though these would be last man standing on the ToP based on the ending:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Except the Dragon Balls goes to the best fighter, nothing about last man standing.

Really? When this was said?

I wouldn't be surprised if the episode preview summary was full of shit and we get something completely different in the episode itself. Wouldn't be the first time...

When was the last time?

Vegeta had no more impressive feats than Goku. He really defeated a Hakaishin, but it's not something that Goku could not do.

And the fact that Goku does not win does not mean much, considering the countless battles that he had in this saga and the various power ups he constantly received.
He did much more than any other, it does not make sense to complain just because he lost

[Simere]

I had a feeling that Freeza would be the one winning, though how he'd pull it off would have been anyone's guess.

Not really bummed about Goku losing either since that just means he still has a reason to keep pushing himself to get even stronger than he is now, and more importantly, it means that dragonball has a reason to continue in the future.

Do you think Dragon Ball was a story about beating Jiren? That once beaten there's no reason to continue?

[Dbzfan94]

Do you guys remember that one dude who used to post here a lot but quit after episode 100? I wonder how he's feeling right about now.

i feel like I do but cant remember the name.

[jeffbr92]

Vegeta had no more impressive feats than Goku. He really defeated a Hakaishin, but it's not something that Goku could not do. And the fact that Goku does not win does not mean much, considering the countless battles that he had in this saga and the various power ups he constantly received.
He did much more than any other, it does not make sense to complain just because he lost

Yes, he had:

- Vegeta surpassed Goku (no matter if it was for a brief time) and put a better fight against Beerus.
- Surpassed Goku again having trained first with Whis.
- Tapped into God Ki without having to turn into SSJ God (Goku complimented him for that).
- Eliminated more fighters than Goku in the Multiversal Tournament (Frost, Magetta, Cabba).
- Humiliated Black on their rematch while Goku put a good fight due rage but was taken down easily.
- IIRC Vegeta is the one who eliminated most fighters in the Universe 7 team.
- He may not have achieved UI, but unlocked a form to compete with KKx20 + Blue.
- No matter if Goku also could defeat a Hakaishin, Vegeta did it first.

Also you read that I said Goku is the protagonist? Not saying that he always has to win, but after all that build, after being trashed by Jiren the whole arc, he deserves the main win in the finale.

sintzu is a Vegeta fan like you and he addressed the issue without being biased:

The fact that Goku has lost nearly all his fights in Super.
The fact that UI has been built up as an unstoppable power.
The fact that Goku went through not one but TWO UI forms.
The fact that the destroyers all stood up when Goku reached MUI.

Taking all this into account, you still think Goku losing is a good idea? What do we know, Super is too high for us to understand its "genious" so whatever it does is automatically accepted.

[dragon boss z]

I hope Frieza gets an epic fight with Jiren because he hasn't gotten one yet this entire tournament. His moment was him getting beaten down by Toppo, lol.

[Aman]

Lmao at the salty Goku marks, especially the ones who are just now calling the series bad when they find out that Goku loses.

It makes storyline sense to lose, because if he were to win from here it would be complete BS and leave little room to go forward. You do not complete a new transformation in minutes and certainly jump that high in power levels to beat someone who has been on that level for a lot longer.

It's a shame that obstacle they put ahead of him was so bland.

[HeroR]

It ultimately doesn't change the fact that Freeza and Goku were equal in the beginning until Freeza reveals he has more power and both characters one upped each other consistently. Even in the manga, Freeza got some good shots when he went to 100%. Jiren from the very beginning has been stated to have so much power that not even his God could beat. Goku and Vegeta were nowhere near Beerus let alone another GoD. The real person hyped up was Jiren and it should stand that he does not lose. He hasn't been using his full power since the beginning and was always shown to not be struggling until the last ep. The hype and build up is different for both characters and so were Goku's levels when he began his fight with Freeza and Jiren. Keep in mind, I would've been ok if Goku won if the fight was great and a struggle. But this is better. If he won by a landslide.. THAT would have been bad. Also, the buildup for Goku to win this tournament is precisely why its not predictable compared to the real outcome. The most consistent theory was that Goku would win his match with Jiren even after Goku lost his matches prior to this arc.

They weren't equals, Freeza was dicking with Goku. Goku without Super Saiyan had a power level of 3 million to Freeza's 120 million. That isn't equal just because Freeza chose to play with this food. He got some shots in, but Super Saiyan Goku had that fight. All Freeza could do was stall and he failed even at that.

So did Freeza. He was stronger than any god at his time.

The most constant theory was the double KO one.

[HeroR]

It's better Goku and Jiren if Goku loses properly. Jiren's build up is justified and Goku gave it his all, it would feel real cheap for Goku to lose because of that excuses again.

Except that’s a repeat of 110 and Battle of Gods.

The hard line is Goku's losing either way, regardless of what any of us would proffer.

So what looks better for Goku and the foe? Goku loses due to stamina lose (which makes him looks like an idote for not saving stamina earlier, makes all that recharging while fight stuff more bs then it was and cheapens Jiren's victory) or Goku loses to a genuinely superior warrior who based on the preview he's pretty evenly match with even at full power (which is different to his fight with Beerus because BoG is really just one big game for Beerus and sick joke on the heroes and his fight with Hit were both warriors are fighting for no life and death reason and one his handicapped).

For me personally if Goku's going to lose a fight that could cost him his universe, the later option is the better way to go about it.

I would take Goku tripping over a rock and falling out by accident.

[Aman]

They'll protect Goku by having him run out of stamina for the millionth time in the arc

Don't let hur dur Ultra Instinct distract you from how poorly this arc has been written. In a way I'm glad Goku is losing so fans don't ignore how silly this arc has been. Had Goku mastered UI and beaten Jiren, a lot of Goku fans would have overlooked it. Now that Goku is supposedly losing, it's the worst thing ever for them, Despite it leaving more room for Goku in the next series, had he won here, he would have had little going forward and you would have considered retiring him as the main character. Y'all should be glad he didn't master it against such a bland antagonist like Jiren.

[HeroR]

I had a feeling that Freeza would be the one winning, though how he'd pull it off would have been anyone's guess.

Not really bummed about Goku losing either since that just means he still has a reason to keep pushing himself to get even stronger than he is now, and more importantly, it means that dragonball has a reason to continue in the future.

Do you think Dragon Ball was a story about beating Jiren? That once beaten there's no reason to continue?

I never got this either. Like, did Goku stop training after beating Piccolo and becoming the strongest on Earth?

Lmao at the salty Goku marks, especially the ones who are just now calling the series bad when they find out that Goku loses.

It makes storyline sense to lose, because if he were to win from here it would be complete BS and leave little room to go forward. You do not complete a new transformation in minutes and certainly jump that high in power levels to beat someone who has been on that level for a lot longer.

It's a shame that obstacle they put ahead of him was so bland.

You mean like Namek?

[Aman]

I had a feeling that Freeza would be the one winning, though how he'd pull it off would have been anyone's guess.

Not really bummed about Goku losing either since that just means he still has a reason to keep pushing himself to get even stronger than he is now, and more importantly, it means that dragonball has a reason to continue in the future.

Do you think Dragon Ball was a story about beating Jiren? That once beaten there's no reason to continue?

I never got this either. Like, did Goku stop training after beating Piccolo and becoming the strongest on Earth?

If Goku beat Jiren after he mastered UI, there would be little to write about going forward. No one is on his level in U7 as is excluding Whis, but he doesn't even fight. At least with this defeat there's actual reason to continue to push, otherwise it would have just been the Angels and Zeno left.

Lol @ bringing up Namek, the gulf between Goku and Jiren was astronomical. By no means comparable to the Goku-Frieza gap.

[Jigurashi]

Is it serious that Goku fans are complaining?

Goku had two fights in the exhibition tournament, 6 fights in the recruitment and many other fights in the tournament, much more than everyone. I would say that he still had an excessive focus on this tournament and even took the shine out of some other characters. He dominated the UI in minutes, overcame the Hakaishins and his fans still complain because he will lose?

And people still say that Vegeta fans are never satisfied?

Goku is the protagonist also Vegeta had more impressive feats in Super overrall than him, it's been a long time since the last Goku had a main victory, he deserves it.

I think even when the anime comes back, Goku'll still use Omen sometimes and treat MUI like a power-up to that.
Just a feeling based on the ending and the other picture.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

As many though these would be last man standing on the ToP based on the ending:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Except the Dragon Balls goes to the best fighter, nothing about last man standing.

Really? When this was said?

I wouldn't be surprised if the episode preview summary was full of shit and we get something completely different in the episode itself. Wouldn't be the first time...

When was the last time?

Where are you getting that Vegeta has more impressive feats from? Goku easily has better feats than Vegeta in Super.

[HeroR]

Do you think Dragon Ball was a story about beating Jiren? That once beaten there's no reason to continue?

I never got this either. Like, did Goku stop training after beating Piccolo and becoming the strongest on Earth?

If Goku beat Jiren after he mastered UI, there would be little to write about going forward. No one is on his level in U7 as is excluding Whis, but he doesn't even fight.

Lol @ bringing up Namek, the gulf between Goku and Jiren was astronical.

You mean like how Goku beat Piccolo and became the strongest under the heavens? Did Goku stop training when he beat up Freeza, the 'strongest being in the universe'?

Goku on Namek pre-Super Saiyan was at 3 million. Freeza at full power was 120 million. Even if the gap between Goku and Jiren wider, Frieza was still 40x stronger than Goku. That and Goku went Super Saiyan when he was so tired that he nearly drowned.

[Aman]

Is it serious that Goku fans are complaining?

Goku had two fights in the exhibition tournament, 6 fights in the recruitment and many other fights in the tournament, much more than everyone. I would say that he still had an excessive focus on this tournament and even took the shine out of some other characters. He dominated the UI in minutes, overcame the Hakaishins and his fans still complain because he will lose?

And people still say that Vegeta fans are never satisfied?

Goku is the protagonist also Vegeta had more impressive feats in Super overrall than him, it's been a long time since the last Goku had a main victory, he deserves it.

I think even when the anime comes back, Goku'll still use Omen sometimes and treat MUI like a power-up to that.
Just a feeling based on the ending and the other picture.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

As many though these would be last man standing on the ToP based on the ending:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Except the Dragon Balls goes to the best fighter, nothing about last man standing.

Really? When this was said?

I wouldn't be surprised if the episode preview summary was full of shit and we get something completely different in the episode itself. Wouldn't be the first time...

When was the last time?

Where are you getting that Vegeta has more impressive feats from? Goku easily has better feats than Vegeta in Super.

Goku has looked stronger in every arc, they've made it a point to hammer the point home.

[Aman]

I never got this either. Like, did Goku stop training after beating Piccolo and becoming the strongest on Earth?

If Goku beat Jiren after he mastered UI, there would be little to write about going forward. No one is on his level in U7 as is excluding Whis, but he doesn't even fight.

Lol @ bringing up Namek, the gulf between Goku and Jiren was astronical.

You mean like how Goku beat Piccolo and became the strongest under the heavens? Did Goku stop training when he beat up Freeza, the 'strongest being in the universe'?

Goku on Namek pre-Super Saiyan was at 3 million. Freeza at full power was 120 million. Even if the gap between Goku and Jiren wider, Frieza was still 40x stronger than Goku. That and Goku went Super Saiyan when he was so tired that he nearly drowned.

The gap between pre TOP Goku and FP Jiren is a lot wider than that.

Beating an alien back then was one thing, Super is at end game content with Angels. gods and god of all. There isn't much else they can do other than to create more God tier characters which would get stale after a while. Goku has already achieved his ultimate form a second well, there's little else to do other than to prefect it (which they seem to have made room for).