"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[ekrolo2]

I feel like Toei screwed the pooch with their solution to Jiren not being meant to speak. They just kind of turn him into a brick shit house instead of making sure every line of dialogue he says is meaningful, the classic guy who doesn't say much but when he does it matters.

Also, Toriyama's really lost his touch if Ultra Instinct is supposed to be "completely different from Super Saiyan." It literally follows the same conventions as all the SS stuff so far with regards to how it changes Goku's appearance, and with God around, you can't even say it's unique for not spiking his hair up.

[Xeogran]

Maybe goku loosing to jiren isn’t bad if the story will continue further down the line.

It is bad, don't jump around it. Are we supposed to be waiting 2+ years now for a new series to start, only to be promised that "T-this new form will beat the villain this time, for sure!" ?

We waited 130 episodes and hoped Super would end on a positive note for Goku, at least for once.

Seriously, will people get baited for the same damn cycle everytime? Goku is the new Ash it seems.

[Professor Freeza]

Maybe goku loosing to jiren isn’t bad if the story will continue further down the line.

It is bad, don't jump around it. Are we supposed to be waiting 2+ years now for a new series to start, only to be promised that "T-this new form will beat the villain this time, for sure!" ?

We waited 130 episodes and hoped Super would end on a positive note for Goku, at least for once.

Seriously, will people get baited for the same damn cycle everytime? Goku is the new Ash it seems.

Its only bad for goku fans. I'm LOVING THIS

[HeroR]

So, this interview might explain that whole thing of Jiren being in the original preview for the arc but being replaced by Toppo at the Zen Exhibition match. Apparently Toei had planned to make Jiren into an over-the-top Justice Man, but Toriyama told them no and they had to switch it to Toppo. Maybe they'd already put Jiren in the trailer when they got told to drop it. Jiren's personality and backstory are all Toriyama, and he took it seriously enough to put his foot down. That's...kind of sad.

We haven't seen Toriyama's original designs for Ribrianne or the three Pride Troopers have we? I hope they release them, it'd be interesting to see. With the exception of Dyspo, they're not as skinny as we typically get from him these days.

Caulifla and Kale not being in the original draft is surprising given how prominent they are in both the anime and manga. Kale being a Toei character and Caulifla being Toriyama isn't surprising though, you can tell instantly. Caulifla's design looks almost stylised and very expressive (also WAY more obviously skinny) while Kale's base form design looks very standard. I'm kind of disappointed the "female Broly" idea was ALL Toei though. I kind of wanted it to be some King Solomon situation where one executive is asking Toriyama to create a female Super Saiyan while another is asking for a canon Broly and he just goes "you shall have...both".

That would have been decided months before the episode is even drawn. Something like that isn't changed last minute. It takes six weeks just for one episode and the writing for that episode is also about four weeks.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Maybe goku loosing to jiren isn’t bad if the story will continue further down the line.

It is bad, don't jump around it. Are we supposed to be waiting 2+ years now for a new series to start, only to be promised that "T-this new form will beat the villain this time, for sure!" ?

We waited 130 episodes and hoped Super would end on a positive note for Goku, at least for once.

Seriously, will people get baited for the same damn cycle everytime? Goku is the new Ash it seems.

It ain’t bad for me. I was never expecting goku to beat this “mortal even a god of destruction can’t beat”. Ever sense freeza was forgotten I thought I knew that it was going to be a draw. Turns out I was wrong and it was goku losing (which put a smile on my face not gonna lie).

[Helios518]

It seems that Toei has controls more of the original outline than we thought. Especially, seeing as how Kale (a Toei created character) made it to the manga.

[Michsi]

Another amusing thing for me here is that it's been stated before that Caulifla seems more like the type of female character that Toriyama would've come up with, rather than the demure, silent type like Kale, so it's funny to see this confirmed.

[HeroR]

It seems that Toei has controls more of the original outline than we thought. Especially, seeing as how Kale (a Toei created character) made it to the manga.

It's been known for awhile that Super is a collaboration of Toei, Toriyama, and Toyo. But fans like to make it about one another, or pretend that Toei is out of the loop and Toriyama and Toyo decides everything.

[SupremeKai25]

How was the Zen'o button an asspull when it was given to Goku in 55 and wasn't used until 67? To be an asspull, Goku would have to produced the button out of nowhere with no foreshadowing.

Fine, it was still a stupid resolution. It's like the developers realized just how powerful they had made Zamasu and couldn't find any other way to defeat him once and for all. Very unfair towards Zamasu, who didn't have a 'Press to kill the enemy' button.

But Trunks got the last laugh since he's still alive with Mai and can rebuild in a new world, while Zamasu is literally nothing. I mean, hard to get the last laugh when you're utterly erased.

Trunks' goal wasn't to be with Mai, it was to protect his timeline. He utterly failed to do that, he even tells it to Gohan and cries.

In this new world, Trunks will meet an alternate version of Bulma, Yajirobe, etc. who will remind him that he failed to protect his actual people. His actual mother's soul was erased.

Like a true God, Zamasu brought down everyone along with him, and deprived Trunks of a decisive victory, and will forever haunt him (just like he will haunt his former master Gowasu too). One last gift from the twisted God who indirectly caused the erasure of an entire Multiverse.

[Sani007]

"Keep watching until the very end on the last episode. Apparently there'll be something special.'

I hope it's a promo for the new movie, not just a gag, than the end of Resurrection 'F'.

[ZenkaiBoosts]

I predicted ZenkaiBoost would be livid about what we found out from the spoilers about Goku. He didn't disappoint (in that other thread)

Guess what, Goku couldn't do what Vegeta failed to do as well. I'm actually quite happy with this, because the show is Goku-centric in another way than say, GT - a better way. We see Goku all the time, but we see him struggle, fall short and not uberwpn everyone (though he still does better than others). In GT we not only saw him all the time, but he was the only character who could do anything - and he did it all the time. I understand some people are bothered by Goku not succeeding, but that actually screams entitlement. I'm also not a big fan of the "But muh main character!" syndrome. Someone being the main char doesn't oblige the writers to make him win every time and always succeed. That's an out of universe reason anyway and it's quite cynical to cite it IMO.

You're a Vegeta fanboy, so I'm curious why you are happy with Jiren beating Goku?

That means Vegeta's promise meant nothing

It means Vegeta passing on his trust to Goku meant nothing

It means Vegeta's speeches meant nothing

Goku losing to Jiren also DEvalues Vegeta as a character and his motivations/developments during the later part of the arc. Think about that

You arent looking at the bigger picture

You may hate Goku for what ever odd reason, but this rushed ending not only devalues Goku, but it devalues an entire hyped up new form, and it devalues Vegeta's motivations and character developments.

I don't see how those who claim to be on the ball in regards to criticism, are suddenly ok with this ending

Not to mention that Jiren while struggling against Omen was somehow able to beat MUI Goku just because "he got serious this time"...thats an asspull...yet people complained about Vegeta and Goku? No it was Jiren who ended up being the real mary sue


EDIT

Now you are saying objectively flase statements. Goku never "saved the day" in Super. They refused to give Goku the MAIN character any big wins In Super. That's unacceptable

Goku WINNING is what actually would've been the unpredictable outcome

Some twist just for the sake of a twist - and Goku losing, have been done so many times now, it's stale - thats what's boring and predictable now

Toriyama has lost his mind.

[HeroR]

How was the Zen'o button an asspull when it was given to Goku in 55 and wasn't used until 67? To be an asspull, Goku would have to produced the button out of nowhere with no foreshadowing.

Fine, it was still a stupid resolution. It's like the developers realized just how powerful they had made Zamasu and couldn't find any other way to defeat him once and for all. Very unfair towards Zamasu, who didn't have an 'Press to kill the enemy' button.

But Trunks got the last laugh since he's still alive with Mai and can rebuild in a new world, while Zamasu is literally nothing. I mean, hard to get the last laugh when you're utterly erased.

Trunks' goal wasn't to be with Mai, it was to protect his timeline. He utterly failed to do that, he even tells it to Gohan and cries.

In this new world, Trunks will meet an alternate version of Bulma, Yajirobe, etc. who will remind him that he failed to protect his actual people. His actual mother's soul was erased.

Like a true God, Zamasu brought down everyone along with him, and deprived Trunks of a decisive victory, and will forever haunt him (just like he will haunt his former master Gowasu).

It isn't like they realized something and did it, it was set up since the beginning for the heroes to fail because of Zamasu's hex. If anything, how Merged Zamasu survived in both anime and manga are the 'asspulls'. I mean, merging with the multiverse came out of nowhere along with the manga's Cooler clones ripoff.

And Zamasu's goal was to wipe out all mortals, become the supreme god, and rule the multiverse with his justice. He may have completed goal one, but in the end he was wiped out so completely that he doesn't even exist anymore. So the people who get to live another day and rebuild will always have the better ending compared to the ones who died or just outright got erased from existence since they're story is over. I mean, Zamasu can't even 'enjoy' his 'victory' in Hell. He literally doesn't exist.

[HeroR]

I predicted ZenkaiBoost would be livid about what we found out from the spoilers about Goku. He didn't disappoint (in that other thread)

Guess what, Goku couldn't do what Vegeta failed to do as well. I'm actually quite happy with this, because the show is Goku-centric in another way than say, GT - a better way. We see Goku all the time, but we see him struggle, fall short and not uberwpn everyone (though he still does better than others). In GT we not only saw him all the time, but he was the only character who could do anything - and he did it all the time. I understand some people are bothered by Goku not succeeding, but that actually screams entitlement. I'm also not a big fan of the "But muh main character!" syndrome. Someone being the main char doesn't oblige the writers to make him win every time and always succeed. That's an out of universe reason anyway and it's quite cynical to cite it IMO.

You're a Vegeta fanboy, so I'm curious why you are happy with Jiren beating Goku?

That means Vegeta's promise meant nothing

It means Vegeta passing on his trust to Goku meant nothing

It means Vegeta's speeches meant nothing

Goku losing to Jiren also DEvalues Vegeta as a character and his motivations/developments during the later part of the arc. Think about that

You arent looking at the bigger picture

You may hate Goku for what ever reason, but this rushed ending not only devalues Goku, but it devalues an entire hyped up new form, and it devalues Vegeta's motivations and character developments.

I don't see how people who claim to be on the ball in regards to criticism, are suddenly ok with this ending

Not to mention that Jiren while struggling against Omen was somehow able to beat MUI Goku just because "he got serious this time"...thats an asspull...yet people complained about Vegeta and Goku? No it was Jiren who ended up being the real mary sue

Well, no one actually saw the ending. Just some brief summery which doesn't tell us everything, especially context.

We don't even know how Jiren won. Maybe Jiren do beat UI into paste after powering up. Maybe Goku's UI runs out at the last second like Vegetto Blue. Maybe Goku slips on a rock and plummets out of the ring or he trips on Freeza's prone body. Maybe that trunk from the 22nd tournament crossover and runs Goku off the stage. I mean, we really don't know.

[SupremeKai25]

If anything, how Merged Zamasu survived in both anime and manga are the 'asspulls'. I mean, merging with the multiverse came out of nowhere along with the manga's Cooler clones ripoff.

Yes, because Goku never losing his button after all the stuff he went through against Zamasu makes so much sense!

Also, Zamasu's soul merging with the Universe was foreshadowed in episode 64, when Goku Black managed to tear a rift through reality (like Infinite Zamasu did), and then when Fused Zamasu was born, he stated 'My form is justice! My form is the world!' (just like Infinite Zamasu is justice itself and has become the world).

And Zamasu's goal was to wipe out all mortals, become the supreme god, and rule the multiverse with his justice. He may have completed goal one, but in the end he was wiped out so completely that he doesn't even exist anymore. So the people who get to live another day and rebuild will always have the better ending compared to the ones who died or just outright got erased from existence since they're story is over. I mean, Zamasu can't even 'enjoy' his 'victory' in Hell. He literally doesn't exist.

And Trunks' family and friends cannot enjoy their victory, because their souls have been erased along with Zamasu's.

You don't have to win the war to get the last laugh. You just have to do something unexpected that truly harmed the protagonist. Everyone assumed that Zamasu had been destroyed forever in episode 66, but instead Zamasu came back stronger than ever, and managed to deprive Trunks' of a flawless victory and his own family. So, even if Zamasu ultimately failed to create his utopian world, he managed to come out stronger than what people expected. Everyone said 'Hahaha, Zamasu got rekt by Trunks' Spirit Sword, he's gone for good!'... No, Zamasu ultimately surprised everyone and caused a lot of irreparable damage.

If the Omni-King had restored Trunks' timeline, then Zamasu wouldn't have got the last laugh, because in the end all the damage he caused would have been undone. But that didn't happen. Zamasu actually caused the destruction of Trunks' timeline. He lost the war, but made sure to deprive Trunks' of a joyful and decisive victory. Trunks can have fun in his new world -- but, mind you, he will forever bear the shame and sadness of knowing he failed to protect his actual timeline. That is Zamasu's last laugh.

[Hawk9211]

If anything, how Merged Zamasu survived in both anime and manga are the 'asspulls'. I mean, merging with the multiverse came out of nowhere along with the manga's Cooler clones ripoff.

Yes, because Goku never losing his button after all the stuff he went through against Zamasu makes so much sense!

Also, Zamasu's soul merging with the Universe was foreshadowed in episode 64, when Goku Black managed to tear a rift through reality (like Infinite Zamasu did), and then when Fused Zamasu was born, he stated 'My form is justice! My form is the world!' (just like Infinite Zamasu is justice itself and has become the world).

And Zamasu's goal was to wipe out all mortals, become the supreme god, and rule the multiverse with his justice. He may have completed goal one, but in the end he was wiped out so completely that he doesn't even exist anymore. So the people who get to live another day and rebuild will always have the better ending compared to the ones who died or just outright got erased from existence since they're story is over. I mean, Zamasu can't even 'enjoy' his 'victory' in Hell. He literally doesn't exist.

And Trunks' family and friends cannot enjoy their victory, because their souls have been erased along with Zamasu's.

You don't have to win the war to get the last laugh. You just have to do something unexpected that truly harmed the protagonist. Everyone assumed that Zamasu had been destroyed forever in episode 66, but instead Zamasu came back stronger than ever, and managed to deprive Trunks' of a flawless victory and his own family. So, even if Zamasu ultimately failed to create his utopian world, he managed to come out stronger than what people expected. Everyone said 'Hahaha, Zamasu got rekt by Trunks' Spirit Sword, he's gone for good!'... No, Zamasu ultimately surprised everyone and caused a lot of irreparable damage.

If the Omni-King had restored Trunks' timeline, then Zamasu wouldn't have got the last laugh, because in the end all the damage he caused would have been undone. But that didn't happen. Zamasu actually caused the destruction of Trunks' timeline. He lost the war, but made sure to deprive Trunks' of a joyful and decisive victory. Trunks can have fun in his new world -- but, mind you, he will forever bear the shame and sadness of knowing he failed to protect his actual timeline. That is Zamasu's last laugh.

If you ask me no one won.Trunks lost his timeline and zamasu wanted to remake the world in jis own image.

[sintzu]

I predicted ZenkaiBoost would be livid about what we found out from the spoilers about Goku. He didn't disappoint (in that other thread)

I'm more of a Vegeta fan and am probably just as upset if not more than Goku's fans.

This has nothing to do with Goku, it's about what the writers are doing with the show as a whole. If you're going to build something up as much as Goku's final fight with Jiren and have Goku lose so many times leading up to it from the very start of the show, we're going to expect a payoff.

[HeroR]

If anything, how Merged Zamasu survived in both anime and manga are the 'asspulls'. I mean, merging with the multiverse came out of nowhere along with the manga's Cooler clones ripoff.

Yes, because Goku never losing his button after all the stuff he went through against Zamasu makes so much sense!

Also, Zamasu's soul merging with the Universe was foreshadowed in episode 64, when Goku Black managed to tear a rift through reality (like Infinite Zamasu did), and then when Fused Zamasu was born, he stated 'My form is justice! My form is the world!' (just like Infinite Zamasu is justice itself and has become the world).

And Zamasu's goal was to wipe out all mortals, become the supreme god, and rule the multiverse with his justice. He may have completed goal one, but in the end he was wiped out so completely that he doesn't even exist anymore. So the people who get to live another day and rebuild will always have the better ending compared to the ones who died or just outright got erased from existence since they're story is over. I mean, Zamasu can't even 'enjoy' his 'victory' in Hell. He literally doesn't exist.

And Trunks' family and friends cannot enjoy their victory, because their souls have been erased along with Zamasu's.

You don't have to win the war to get the last laugh. You just have to do something unexpected that truly harmed the protagonist. Everyone assumed that Zamasu had been destroyed forever in episode 66, but instead Zamasu came back stronger than ever, and managed to deprive Trunks' of a flawless victory and his own family. So, even if Zamasu ultimately failed to create his utopian world, he managed to come out stronger than what people expected. Everyone said 'Hahaha, Zamasu got rekt by Trunks' Spirit Sword, he's gone for good!'... No, Zamasu ultimately surprised everyone and caused a lot of irreparable damage.

If the Omni-King had restored Trunks' timeline, then Zamasu wouldn't have got the last laugh, because in the end all the damage he caused would have been undone. But that didn't happen. Zamasu actually caused the destruction of Trunks' timeline. He lost the war, but made sure to deprive Trunks' of a joyful and decisive victory. Trunks can have fun in his new world -- but, mind you, he will forever bear the shame and sadness of knowing he failed to protect his actual timeline. That is Zamasu's last laugh.

Goku's clothes was never destroyed, so why would he lose the button?

The two were never connected to each other at all and Zamasu's quote was just him bragging, not a foreshadowing of him eating the multiverse. So yes, Merged Zamasu surviving being split in half was a bit of an asspull in both media. If anything, the heroes were the ones who kept having the deck screw them over with Zamasu ending things by flipping the table and shooting the player. Can't really call fowl when the heroes turns around and call the cops on Zamasu.

And Zamasu doesn't exist anymore, so what victory is he enjoying? Trunks and Mai failed and have to lived with their failure. But 'they're still alive', while Merged Zamasu is literally nothing. Not even the world he spent years building exist anymore. So he overall came out the biggest loser.

[Grimlock]

So Toriyama aka the untouchable god:

80 fighters.
>Only initially desgins a few and the arena.

Jiren is the main antagonist.
>Tell's Toei he doesn't speak and gives that backstory.

Designs Dyspo.
>Looks like Beerus.

Designs UI.
>Retraces SSG design...

Toei come up with Kale.
>Then he gets his creative juices going and designs Caulifla.

Massive tournament.
>Presumably leaves all the action to Toei as per usual.

Dragon Ball Super 5 arcs.
>Requests the first 2 arcs retell the movies.
>2 of the 3 new material arcs are tournaments... With the Trunks arc happening due to some sort of suggestion from Toei.

Explore's Goku's past.
>DB Minus...

BoG was all conepted by Toei.
>Toriyama reworks it and fans praise him as like he's somesort of saviour.

Gets to write new movie in 2015.
>Resurrection "F"...

I'm sensing a pattern here... Toriyama needs an editor or should leave the franchise but instead gets free reign on a new movie...

At this point, Akira Toriyama needs more than just one editor, and there are a lot of people to help him, mainly from Dimps company. But not only him, Toei itself needs someone or something to put them in check for us viewers get less characters like Kale and Jiren. Or Toriyama should leave the franchise as you said, as he's one of the main reasons the main series can't bring cool stuff without having to leave the safe zone.

This new movie has everything to get it right, at the same time, it has everything to go wrong too. With Toriyama involved, I have my own worries and I'm trying to get positive and with the hype up since the last movie was dead to me since it was revealed its villain.

[Saturnine]

You're a big Vegeta fanboy,

False, I really am not. I do like him reasonably, but it's your constant demeaning of him that prompted my (and other people's) reactions.

so I'm curious why you are happy with Jiren beating Goku?

Mostly because Goku doesn't have a "main character free card", and we are shown that he can actually fail. I find that a welcome change. I do recognize it's not the most rewarding plot outcome though, given the buildup.

That means Vegeta's promise meant nothing

It means Vegeta passing on his trust to Goku meant nothing

It means Vegeta's speeches meant nothing

Goku losing to Jiren also DEvalues Vegeta as a character and his motivations/developments during the later part of the arc. Think about that

I don't care

You arent looking at the bigger picture

You may hate Goku for what ever odd reason, but this rushed ending not only devalues Goku, but it devalues an entire hyped up new form, and it devalues Vegeta's motivations and character developments.

I don't hate Goku, I actually quite like him.

I don't see how those who claim to be on the ball in regards to criticism, are suddenly ok with this ending

I'm ambivalent towards this ending. It has its good and bad points. If Freeza wins and Goku can't wish for restoring the erased universes, it sets up for potential future arcs. On the other hand, it does feel a bit unrewarding, considering Goku fails to get the win. And no, not because he's the main character! Being the main character isn't and shouldn't be reason enough to like a character or think they should get certain things. You keep doing that. That's why I'm taking pleasure in your disappointment.

Not to mention that Jiren while struggling against Omen was somehow able to beat MUI Goku just because "he got serious this time"...thats an asspull...yet people complained about Vegeta and Goku? No it was Jiren who ended up being the real mary sue

Freeza turned out to be hiding like 95% of his true power. Perfect Cell and Super Buu kept revealing new depths of their power time after time too. This trope has been with Dragonball literally ever since the Freeza arc. Weird of you to be bothered by it only now specifically.

EDIT

Now you are spouting objectively FALSE statements. Goku never "saved the day" in Super. They refused to give Goku the MAIN character any big wins In Super. That's unacceptable

On the contrary, it's perfectly acceptable, if perhaps not the most rewarding. You just don't like it and refuse to accept it. That's why you're acting so funny

Goku WINNING is what actually would've been the unpredictable outcome

Nah we all expected him to win. His earlier failures in Super didn't change the much deeper entrenched expectation of him always saving the day prevalent among the fandom.

Some twist just for the sake of a twist and Goku losing have been done so many times now, it's stale - THATS WHATS boring and predictable now

I'm actually liking these twists, the endings are far less Disney-ish this way.

[HeroR]

At this point, Akira Toriyama needs more than just one editor, and there are a lot of people to help him, mainly from Dimps company. But not only him, Toei itself needs someone or something to put them in check for us viewers get less characters like Kale and Jiren. Or Toriyama should leave the franchise as you said, as he's one of the main reasons the main series can't bring cool stuff without having to leave the safe zone.

This new movie has everything to get it right, at the same time, it has everything to go wrong too. With Toriyama involved, I have my own worries and I'm trying to get positive and with the hype up since the last movie was dead to me since it was revealed its villain.

The series went decades without Toriyama and the only 'cool stuff' that happened during that time was Heroes, which is basically throw everything against the wall and give everyone Super Saiyan 3. Even the most original ideas from Heroes originally came from Online, which had Toriyama's involvement. Kai is literally the safest produce ever produced for Dragon Ball and it had nothing to do with Toriyama.

Seriously, why do fans act like Dragon Ball was this brim of creativity before evil Toriyama return? And Kale was Toie's idea, so why would someone at Toei need someone to reign in Toriyama for their own creation? Are you saying that someone at Toei needed to tell Toriyama that an idea from Toei was a bad idea?