"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[Hawk9211]

At this point, Akira Toriyama needs more than just one editor, and there are a lot of people to help him, mainly from Dimps company. But not only him, Toei itself needs someone or something to put them in check for us viewers get less characters like Kale and Jiren. Or Toriyama should leave the franchise as you said, as he's one of the main reasons the main series can't bring cool stuff without having to leave the safe zone.

This new movie has everything to get it right, at the same time, it has everything to go wrong too. With Toriyama involved, I have my own worries and I'm trying to get positive and with the hype up since the last movie was dead to me since it was revealed its villain.

The series went decades without Toriyama and the only 'cool stuff' that happened during that time was Heroes, which is basically throw everything against the wall and give everyone Super Saiyan 3. Even the most original ideas from Heroes originally came from Online, which had Toriyama's involvement. Kai is literally the safest produce ever produced for Dragon Ball and it had nothing to do with Toriyama.

Seriously, why do fans act like Dragon Ball was this brim of creativity before evil Toriyama return? And Kale was Toie's idea, so why would someone at Toei need someone to reign in Toriyama for their own creation? Are you saying that someone at Toei needed to tell Toriyama that an idea from Toei was a bad idea?

Agree with you,but he still needs an editor not from toei maybe someone from shueisha.

[HeroR]

Agree with you,but he still needs an editor not from toei maybe someone from shueisha.

No offense, but I think fans put way too much stack in 'everything would be better with an editor'. Then again, editors made the Cell Saga happened and I think the Cell Saga is the weakest saga in all of Dragon Ball outside of GT. And Toriyama not listening to editors is the reason why we got adult Goku. If it was up to editor, Goku would be Ash.

And what makes you think Shueisha would do a better job?

[SupremeKai25]

Goku's clothes was never destroyed, so why would he lose the button?

Likewise, I can say Zamasu's immortal soul was never destroyed, so why should he die just because he lost his physical body?

The two were never connected to each other at all

Goku Black is a fusée of Fused Zamasu. Fused Zamasu inherited all of Goku Black's power and techniques, and when the most powerful Black merged with the immortal Future Zamasu, Fused Zamasu's power expanded to no end. Therefore, it is logical why Infinite Zamasu, the soul of Fused Zamasu, would be able to transcend time and space just like Black did and even latch onto the Universe.

And Zamasu doesn't exist anymore, so what victory is he enjoying?

You don't have to win the war to have the last laugh.

In fact, 'having the last laugh' implies that you lost the war, but still managed to do some unexpected damage before going down.

Trunks and Mai failed and have to lived with their failure.

This is Zamasu's last laugh. Trunks even cried because of that.

But 'they're still alive', while Merged Zamasu is literally nothing.

Just like Trunks' family and friends whom Trunks was supposed to protect.

So he overall came out the biggest loser.

A 'loser' who managed to cause a lot of damage that will not be undone by magical means such as the Dragon Balls.

[emperior]

Toriyama's involvment with this arc is disappointing. Why did he bother make it a 10 men teams tournament if he wasn't willing to design at least a few characters per universe? Hell, if that weren't for Toei we probably wouldn't have gotten any new U6 Saiyans, which wouldn't have made sense considering this was a tournament for survival and not for fun and giggles. I don't even like Kale, but at least Toei creating her made Toriyama design Caulifla, who I like a lot. Kefla was a fun addition too.

It's crazy how we haven't even gotten gags from Toriyama. It's like he doesn't give a single fuck anymore. Jiren's backstory was clearly written in 10 minutes and is crazy cliche. I actually like it but the point is that it's clear Toriyama is trying to do the bare minimum of work.
First he didn't even bother properly designing Ultra Instinct, then we are told he designed very few fighters among which there is Dyspo who looks like Beerus without any reason, probably because Toriyama traced his own Beerus design but gave him a Pride Troopers outfit.

That's seriously disappointing because I would love to see Toriyama being more involved, as his character designs are actually very good and surely better than Toei's/Toyotaro's, and with the concept of Ultra Instinct and a massive Battle Royale it's clear his ideas are quite good too when he tries.

[majinwarman]

Agree with you,but he still needs an editor not from toei maybe someone from shueisha.

No offense, but I think fans put way too much stack in 'everything would be better with an editor'. Then again, editors made the Cell Saga happened and I think the Cell Saga is the weakest saga in all of Dragon Ball outside of GT. And Toriyama not listening to editors is the reason why we got adult Goku. If it was up to editor, Goku would be Ash.

I remember reading about his editor didn't want Goku to become an adult at all. But, I could be wrong so please forgive me if I am. But, the information is right though then Goku would be the Ash of anime before Ash even existed.

[Grimlock]

Then allow us to rephrase that: Akira Toriyama needs a good editor. And again, there's lots of people who can help him.

[HeroR]

Agree with you,but he still needs an editor not from toei maybe someone from shueisha.

No offense, but I think fans put way too much stack in 'everything would be better with an editor'. Then again, editors made the Cell Saga happened and I think the Cell Saga is the weakest saga in all of Dragon Ball outside of GT. And Toriyama not listening to editors is the reason why we got adult Goku. If it was up to editor, Goku would be Ash.

I remember reading about his editor didn't want Goku to become an adult at all. But, I could be wrong so please forgive me if I am. But, the information is right though then Goku would be the Ash of anime before Ash even existed.

Yes, that actually happened.

Then allow us to rephrase that: Akira Toriyama needs a good editor. And again, there's lots of people who can help him.

What is considered a 'good editor'. The editor for the Cell Saga was considered good and I didn't like that arc.

[Lord Beerus]

Piccolo slipping off the stage in Episode 119.

Why was the preview summary for that bullshit?

I can't recall.

Damon tripped him I believe. Its not really BS persay but it was not accurate either.

I don't know how they write the summaries, but they are never out and out wrong, just very vague to the point of easily being misinterpreted at times. For example they keep saying Jiren uses his full power, which is not correct since he's just now going all out but they are not wrong because he's being forced to use more and more of it.

Edit:

No episode this week?

There was the one episode preview summary that stated that Krillin would get disqualified which never happens.

[majinwarman]

Toriyama's involvment with this arc is disappointing. Why did he bother make it a 10 men teams tournament if he wasn't willing to design at least a few characters per universe? Hell, if that weren't for Toei we probably wouldn't have gotten any new U6 Saiyans, which wouldn't have made sense considering this was a tournament for survival and not for fun and giggles. I don't even like Kale, but at least Toei creating her made Toriyama design Caulifla, who I like a lot. Kefla was a fun addition too.

It's crazy how we haven't even gotten gags from Toriyama. It's like he doesn't give a single fuck anymore. Jiren's backstory was clearly written in 10 minutes and is crazy cliche. I actually like it but the point is that it's clear Toriyama is trying to do the bare minimum of work.
First he didn't even bother properly designing Ultra Instinct, then we are told he designed very few fighters among which there is Dyspo who looks like Beerus without any reason, probably because Toriyama traced his own Beerus design but gave him a Pride Troopers outfit.

That's seriously disappointing because I would love to see Toriyama being more involved, as his character designs are actually very good and surely better than Toei's/Toyotaro's, and with the concept of Ultra Instinct and a massive Battle Royale it's clear his ideas are quite good too when he tries.

Read this thread before you make a conclusion that Toriyama didn't do much in this arc.
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=41501

[emperior]

Agree with you,but he still needs an editor not from toei maybe someone from shueisha.

No offense, but I think fans put way too much stack in 'everything would be better with an editor'. Then again, editors made the Cell Saga happened and I think the Cell Saga is the weakest saga in all of Dragon Ball outside of GT. And Toriyama not listening to editors is the reason why we got adult Goku. If it was up to editor, Goku would be Ash.

I remember reading about his editor didn't want Goku to become an adult at all. Goku would be the Ash of anime before Ash even existed.

That's one of the reasons why we absolutely need Toriyama to keep writing outlines of new Dragon Ball story. He is the only one who can take important decisions regarding to the story. He is the only one who can really change and shape the Dragon Ball story. The franchise is way too big for anyone not named Toriyama to decide how it needs to continue. Every other writer would stick to fanservice and would play the new stories in a very safe way. Not that Toriyama isn't playing it safe as long as the stories are set before EoZ, but he had the balls to wipe out Trunks' entire timeline, which is something no other writer would have ever done. Like it or not, I love ballsy moves like that. He also is the one who has the balls to have Goku lose most of his major battles.

[HeroR]

Toriyama's involvment with this arc is disappointing. Why did he bother make it a 10 men teams tournament if he wasn't willing to design at least a few characters per universe? Hell, if that weren't for Toei we probably wouldn't have gotten any new U6 Saiyans, which wouldn't have made sense considering this was a tournament for survival and not for fun and giggles. I don't even like Kale, but at least Toei creating her made Toriyama design Caulifla, who I like a lot. Kefla was a fun addition too.

It's crazy how we haven't even gotten gags from Toriyama. It's like he doesn't give a single fuck anymore. Jiren's backstory was clearly written in 10 minutes and is crazy cliche. I actually like it but the point is that it's clear Toriyama is trying to do the bare minimum of work.
First he didn't even bother properly designing Ultra Instinct, then we are told he designed very few fighters among which there is Dyspo who looks like Beerus without any reason, probably because Toriyama traced his own Beerus design but gave him a Pride Troopers outfit.

That's seriously disappointing because I would love to see Toriyama being more involved, as his character designs are actually very good and surely better than Toei's/Toyotaro's, and with the concept of Ultra Instinct and a massive Battle Royale it's clear his ideas are quite good too when he tries.

Read this thread before you make a conclusion that Toriyama didn't do much in this arc.
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=41501

This. The TOP was a back and forward process from both Toriyama and Toei for better and worst. Which is normal for any production process.

[Grimlock]

What is considered a 'good editor'. The editor for the Cell Saga was considered good and I didn't like that arc.

I think it goes without saying that's your opinion. But stuff like "if it was up to editor, Goku would be a child forever" is a general issue, and I would say a general problem too.

but he had the balls to wipe out Trunks' entire timeline, which is something no other writer would have ever done..

And Toei had the balls to kill Piccolo permanently in Dragon Ball GT, one of the main characters. Which is something the author would have ever done, they're all safe and sound as long Toriyama is involved.

[Lord Frieza]

Why was the preview summary for that bullshit?

I can't recall.

Damon tripped him I believe. Its not really BS persay but it was not accurate either.

I don't know how they write the summaries, but they are never out and out wrong, just very vague to the point of easily being misinterpreted at times. For example they keep saying Jiren uses his full power, which is not correct since he's just now going all out but they are not wrong because he's being forced to use more and more of it.

Edit:

No episode this week?

There was the one episode preview summary that stated that Krillin would get disqualified which never happens.

I yes thats right, when we all thought he was gonna cut some poor guy in half, if only...

[majinwarman]

Toriyama's involvment with this arc is disappointing. Why did he bother make it a 10 men teams tournament if he wasn't willing to design at least a few characters per universe? Hell, if that weren't for Toei we probably wouldn't have gotten any new U6 Saiyans, which wouldn't have made sense considering this was a tournament for survival and not for fun and giggles. I don't even like Kale, but at least Toei creating her made Toriyama design Caulifla, who I like a lot. Kefla was a fun addition too.

It's crazy how we haven't even gotten gags from Toriyama. It's like he doesn't give a single fuck anymore. Jiren's backstory was clearly written in 10 minutes and is crazy cliche. I actually like it but the point is that it's clear Toriyama is trying to do the bare minimum of work.
First he didn't even bother properly designing Ultra Instinct, then we are told he designed very few fighters among which there is Dyspo who looks like Beerus without any reason, probably because Toriyama traced his own Beerus design but gave him a Pride Troopers outfit.

That's seriously disappointing because I would love to see Toriyama being more involved, as his character designs are actually very good and surely better than Toei's/Toyotaro's, and with the concept of Ultra Instinct and a massive Battle Royale it's clear his ideas are quite good too when he tries.

Read this thread before you make a conclusion that Toriyama didn't do much in this arc.
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=41501

This. The TOP was a back and forward process from both Toriyama and Toei for better and worst. Which is normal for any production process.

But, at least it tells people who claiming that Toriyama has done nothing for this arc that he is involved a lot. Toriyama was the one who wrote Jiren as he is and people are claiming that it is all Toei. People just need to be more informed before they spout out nonsense.

[majinwarman]

No offense, but I think fans put way too much stack in 'everything would be better with an editor'. Then again, editors made the Cell Saga happened and I think the Cell Saga is the weakest saga in all of Dragon Ball outside of GT. And Toriyama not listening to editors is the reason why we got adult Goku. If it was up to editor, Goku would be Ash.

I remember reading about his editor didn't want Goku to become an adult at all. Goku would be the Ash of anime before Ash even existed.

That's one of the reasons why we absolutely need Toriyama to keep writing outlines of new Dragon Ball story. He is the only one who can take important decisions regarding to the story. He is the only one who can really change and shape the Dragon Ball story. The franchise is way too big for anyone not named Toriyama to decide how it needs to continue. Every other writer would stick to fanservice and would play the new stories in a very safe way. Not that Toriyama isn't playing it safe as long as the stories are set before EoZ, but he had the balls to wipe out Trunks' entire timeline, which is something no other writer would have ever done. Like it or not, I love ballsy moves like that. He also is the one who has the balls to have Goku lose most of his major battles.

And then they are people who want Toriyama out of modern Dragon Ball.

[HeroR]

What is considered a 'good editor'. The editor for the Cell Saga was considered good and I didn't like that arc.

I think it goes without saying that's your opinion. But stuff like "if it was up to editor, Goku would be a child forever" is a general issue, and I would say a general problem too.

but he had the balls to wipe out Trunks' entire timeline, which is something no other writer would have ever done..

And Toei had the balls to kill Piccolo permanently in Dragon Ball GT, one of the main characters. Which is something the author would have ever done, they're all safe and sound as long Toriyama is involved.

Yes, it's my opinion. I didn't like the Cell Saga, so I didn't like what the editors did. I actually prefer to see what Toriyama would have done with Androids 19 and 20, or heck Androids 16, 17, and 18 after those were rejected.

How was it ballsy when Toei didn't even do anything with Piccolo in GT? He was so nothing that him being alive or dead didn't matter. Even then, Toriyama one-up all of them by nuking Trunks' timeline instead of using Time Patrol Trunks.

[Michsi]

It should have been a well known fact by now that Super is, and has always been, a collaborative effort. Toriyama might get the final say, but he's been open about accepting suggestions or letting others fill in the gaps between his plot points.

I understand why Kale's inclusion might rub so many the wrong way, since the idea behind her is pure fan-service, but I think she served her purpose well. Fandom was ablaze during that part of the TOP.

In Jiren's case, the fact that he is the taciturn type was never the issue with his character, so that Toriyama gave him this trait doesn't really mean anything. Hit is like that too, yet I haven't seen anybody complain about that. Design and back-story, though? That was a bit surprising.

How was it ballsy when Toei didn't even do anything with Piccolo in GT? He was so nothing that him being alive or dead didn't matter. Even then, Toriyama one-up all of them by nuking Trunks' timeline instead of using Time Patrol Trunks.

To be fair, it's kinda hinted at that Goku gave him his life at the end there, so it's not even a permanent change.

The ballsiest thing in GT in my opinion is Vegeta's hair and mustache, and they couldn't stick with that either

[HeroR]

It should have been a well known fact by now that Super is, and has always been, a collaborative effort. Toriyama might get the final say, but he's been open about accepting suggestions or letting others fill in the gaps between his plot points.

I understand why Kale's inclusion might rub so many the wrong way, since the idea behind her is pure fan-service, but I think she served her purpose well. Fandom was ablaze during that part of the TOP.

In Jiren's case, the fact that he is the taciturn type was never the issue with his character, so that Toriyama gave him this trait doesn't really mean anything. Hit is like that too, yet I haven't seen anybody complain about that. Design and back-story, though? That was a bit surprising.

How was it ballsy when Toei didn't even do anything with Piccolo in GT? He was so nothing that him being alive or dead didn't matter. Even then, Toriyama one-up all of them by nuking Trunks' timeline instead of using Time Patrol Trunks.

To be fair, it's kinda hinted at that Goku gave him his life at the end there, so it's not even a permanent change.

The ballsiest thing in GT in my opinion is Vegeta's hair and mustache, and they couldn't stick with that either

Not sure why Jiren's design and backstory being Toriyama's is surprising. Jiren's backstory isn't even bad, just not original.

I thought GT hinted that Piccolo was stuck in Hell forever for no real reason.

Have to agree with you there about Vegeta. On a serious note, the one ballsy thing that GT did was turning the Dragon Balls evil, but then that was shortchanged by it being the final arc and we don't see how the Earth functioned without its reset button.

[Luso Saiyan]

So, just like I assumed, Kale came from the anime staff which (as seen by what ended up happening) used it as a chance to shoehorn their fan fiction. Color me surprised...

[Michsi]

Not sure why Jiren's design and backstory being Toriyama's is surprising. Jiren's backstory isn't even bad, just not original.

Well, unoriginal is generally seen as a bad thing. He likes to subvert expectations, doesn't he. Or was him having an unoriginal back-story the twist here. Also, Jiren's design is perhaps my least favorite DB villain design.

I thought GT hinted that Piccolo was stuck in Hell forever for no real reason.

I thought so too for the longest of time, and there was something poetic about him guarding hell , but right at the end, when they shake hands and Goku insists on it, something like an electric charge occurs and Piccolo says something "Goku, did you...." I used to think that it was supposed to show Piccolo understanding that Goku had ascended but upon re-watch, I no longer think. Others think so too. It was just never made clear or confirmed.