Bad outweighs the good by a good margin?

[Shuby]

Then you shouldn’t have made the post. Also no offense anybody who made a giant monstrosity of a post that essentially boiled down to “they didn’t spoon feed me enough information and didn’t cater to certain characters I wanted” should talk about embarrassing arguments.

Seems like you just wanted your silly opinion validated.

It has nothing to do with spoon feeding but when they leave out or dont even make an attempt to explain certain things which can annoy viewers/fans or leaves them questioning because an essential piece of the puzzle is missing, it is then pretty natural to ask or point out things which the series should have done, I'm sorry but a bad and a inconsistent written episodes or aspects of the show should be pointed out, no series is perfect but that's where constructive criticizing comes from. The fact that you're giving silly arguments such as stop expecting them to spoon feed you or arguments such as:He TRAINED. Do you need to know why Freeza was as strong as he was, or King Piccolo, or Boo, or anybody? Do you really need it all spoonfed to you, uumh why make an attempt to explain his back story then only for the execution to be this shallow and uninteresting? Jiren isn't a character at all. Jiren is a plot device so he is not a villain compared to characters you've mentioned.Why does Jiren get hate over the others? Because he lacks the charm. Personality does wonder to hide a character's flaws; Freeza, Cell, and Buu all had some kind of charm or cuteness to their personality that made them entertaining to watch even if they are stupid. Jiren does not. Add in the terrible backstory and Jiren has nothing to hide his flaws - they're in plain view. He's not very pro-active and his strength is OP which ruins the "tension". All of this can and will take the viewer out of their suspension of disbelief - that may be the worst thing a character can do outside being boring. Jiren has both, even if other characters are badly written it doesn't excuse him.
You don't need a backstory to make a character interesting *all the time*. A characters personality and character interactions is enough to find entertaining and engaging. A villain doesn't always need to be complex to make him/her and the story work. the difference between jiren and Freeza/cell/buu is that jiren doesnt DO anything. he has no presence in this arc and is only the focus now because hes the only one left. frieza, cell and buu went on rampages, interacted with people and changed over the course of their arcs whether figuratively speaking or literally, we saw how Super Buu got stronger, we saw how kid Boo turned into Fat Boo, we saw how Cell got stronger, We saw how Freeza got stronger(even if it made not sense), we see nothing from Jiren.

So I read this post. The first time you attempt to make an argument it goes into the Jiran discussion. Even that was just your opinion of Jiran and had nothing to do with your initial argument of why was he so strong. Jiran is a standoffish superhero caricature. His backstory explains why he is a standoffish super hero character. He believes in justice because he wanted avenge his parents, he's standoffish because he doesn't trust people since he was betrayed by his former team. The character is basically Batman. He's very driven to the point of insanity and is an unsocial prick. Despite popular opinion, a character doesn't have to be likeable to be a good character.

Kid Boo had tons of personality, but he was one of the least interesting villains of not only the series but of the different versions of Boo.

We don't need to know how Jiran got this strong. Cell got stronger because he started weak and his goal was to absorb the Androids to realize his strength. Boo got stronger because characters were fusing and unlocking their potential to get ahead of him so he needed a counter. Freeza the first time we saw him was actually the same strength, his transformation were self imposed locks.

If you're talking about Freeza in Super. How is rationalizing that Jiran got strong through a life's worth of training harder to believe than Freeza spending a couple of months to go from below SSJ to on par with SSJB? It took Goku anywhere from 10-15 years to reach what Freeza did in a couple of months.

Frieza was a mutant who was born strong
We were literally shown that Jiren was once weak but somehow has become stronger than his god of destruction and it's implied he did it alone
That's pretty unique to dragon ball
Cell, buu. And most villains were born with their strength or made with it
With Frieza getting stronger it was explained he simply had that kind of potential
Jiren was made to look like an ordinary kid in his backstory. That training aspect makes him different then the mentioned villains, what kind of training did he do? Did the god of destruction help him getting stronger? Many questions which you may not find interesting, unfortunately for you i think most people who are A fan of this series want at least to know how he got so strong.

[SsjCookie]

I'd say it's 50/50 for me, it wasn't all bad.
The Zamasu arc made up a lot, and the U6 with Champa was also amusing to watch.
There were also random episodes and slice of life stuff that I really enjoyed and sometimes the anime was outstanding.

But unfortunately also the opposite is true, Resurrection F was a disaster in my opinion, and the anime was ghastly sometimes.
The TOP is not what it''s cracked up to be and disappoints me so far.
Only these last episodes of it are at least remotely entertaining, but it can not save the whole arc for me unfortunately no matter how it ends.

When it comes to the main/side characters it's also 50/50.

The bad:
Goku, because he's too one dimensional as a character, and him always wanting to fight strong guys(despite random universes getting destroyed because of it) gets tedious to watch after some time.
Gohan, because he became almost as bad as Goku in his ignorance but unlike him for whole different reasons.
Piccolo because he's became a babysitter, WTF.
Krillin and Tien because they are irrelevant.
Goten because he hasn't had any attention through the whole series, AT ALL.
Zeno's: because they are lame, both in character as in design.
Chichi: because I just don't like her personality in Super.

The inbetween
Vegeta, because he had some great moments recently and I always think that when he's around his family he's at his best.
But In the fights, he's still often seen making the same mistakes again.
Kid Trunks, had a good role in the Zamasu arc, and I liked his interaction with the Pilaf gang and Mai.
But like Goten, they are mostly ignored throughout the whole series.

The good
Bulma, because she is one of the most useful people of Super despite her not being a fighter, she's a great personality.
Future Trunks, because he had the best arc of Super so far, and he's the most emphatic character of Super.
Beerus, Because he's neither good nor bad and he has evolved as a character throughout the show.
Whis, because he's funny and cool and a great design.
Freeza, because he's to me the ultimate bad guy, people can't get any worse than that.
Roshi, because despite being old, he can still outclass his former students like Krillin and Tien.
17, because he was probably the most enjoyable to watch throughout the whole tournament, he was bad-ass.
Zamasu, the best new villain of super next to Freeza, loved his design and character.

This is MY personal opinion though, it doesn't mean that I'm right about this.
But neither am I wrong.
It's a matter of taste and opinion.

[lancerman]

It has nothing to do with spoon feeding but when they leave out or dont even make an attempt to explain certain things which can annoy viewers/fans or leaves them questioning because an essential piece of the puzzle is missing, it is then pretty natural to ask or point out things which the series should have done, I'm sorry but a bad and a inconsistent written episodes or aspects of the show should be pointed out, no series is perfect but that's where constructive criticizing comes from. The fact that you're giving silly arguments such as stop expecting them to spoon feed you or arguments such as:He TRAINED. Do you need to know why Freeza was as strong as he was, or King Piccolo, or Boo, or anybody? Do you really need it all spoonfed to you, uumh why make an attempt to explain his back story then only for the execution to be this shallow and uninteresting? Jiren isn't a character at all. Jiren is a plot device so he is not a villain compared to characters you've mentioned.Why does Jiren get hate over the others? Because he lacks the charm. Personality does wonder to hide a character's flaws; Freeza, Cell, and Buu all had some kind of charm or cuteness to their personality that made them entertaining to watch even if they are stupid. Jiren does not. Add in the terrible backstory and Jiren has nothing to hide his flaws - they're in plain view. He's not very pro-active and his strength is OP which ruins the "tension". All of this can and will take the viewer out of their suspension of disbelief - that may be the worst thing a character can do outside being boring. Jiren has both, even if other characters are badly written it doesn't excuse him.
You don't need a backstory to make a character interesting *all the time*. A characters personality and character interactions is enough to find entertaining and engaging. A villain doesn't always need to be complex to make him/her and the story work. the difference between jiren and Freeza/cell/buu is that jiren doesnt DO anything. he has no presence in this arc and is only the focus now because hes the only one left. frieza, cell and buu went on rampages, interacted with people and changed over the course of their arcs whether figuratively speaking or literally, we saw how Super Buu got stronger, we saw how kid Boo turned into Fat Boo, we saw how Cell got stronger, We saw how Freeza got stronger(even if it made not sense), we see nothing from Jiren.

So I read this post. The first time you attempt to make an argument it goes into the Jiran discussion. Even that was just your opinion of Jiran and had nothing to do with your initial argument of why was he so strong. Jiran is a standoffish superhero caricature. His backstory explains why he is a standoffish super hero character. He believes in justice because he wanted avenge his parents, he's standoffish because he doesn't trust people since he was betrayed by his former team. The character is basically Batman. He's very driven to the point of insanity and is an unsocial prick. Despite popular opinion, a character doesn't have to be likeable to be a good character.

Kid Boo had tons of personality, but he was one of the least interesting villains of not only the series but of the different versions of Boo.

We don't need to know how Jiran got this strong. Cell got stronger because he started weak and his goal was to absorb the Androids to realize his strength. Boo got stronger because characters were fusing and unlocking their potential to get ahead of him so he needed a counter. Freeza the first time we saw him was actually the same strength, his transformation were self imposed locks.

If you're talking about Freeza in Super. How is rationalizing that Jiran got strong through a life's worth of training harder to believe than Freeza spending a couple of months to go from below SSJ to on par with SSJB? It took Goku anywhere from 10-15 years to reach what Freeza did in a couple of months.

Frieza was a mutant who was born strong
We were literally shown that Jiren was once weak but somehow has become stronger than his god of destruction and it's implied he did it alone
That's pretty unique to dragon ball
Cell, buu. And most villains were born with their strength or made with it
With Frieza getting stronger it was explained he simply had that kind of potential
Jiren was made to look like an ordinary kid in his backstory. That training aspect makes him different then the mentioned villains, what kind of training did he do? Did the god of destruction help him getting stronger? Many questions which you may not find interesting, unfortunately for you i think most people who are A fan of this series want at least to know how he got so strong.

How did Roshi get as strong as he did? He trained with Mutaito and Korin. We never saw it.
How did Tenshinhan get as strong as he did at the 22nd tournament? He trained with the Crane school. We never saw it.
How did Tao get as strong as he was? Presumably he trained with his brother. We never saw it.
How did Zarbon/Dodoria any of the Ginyu's get as strong as they did? They either trained or were born that way. We didn't need to see it.
How did Freeza get as strong as was? Actually we didn't know Freeza was a prodigy who never really trained until very recently. And then he trained offscreen and in a matter of months did what it took a decade for the two strongest protagonists to do. So why didn't Freeza train before going to Earth? He would have destroyed them.
Ok Cell and the Androids were created? Hmmm... How did an average Earth scientist figure out the way to create Androids that strong? We know he did, we didn't get any details.
What about Boo? So presumably anybody of Babidi's race can create Boo? If so why didn't Babidi create a new Boo? If he can't, why could Bibidi? What did Bibidi do to create Boo?
Beerus presumably was just born that way.
Piccolo grew from a child to an adult in 3 years. Was he just naturally that strong? He was stronger than his father. Did he train that whole time? If so how did he do it?

You can do that with everybody who isn't Goku. And even with Goku we have no idea what he did to reach SSJ3 in a seven year period. In seven years Goku became the only other person to achieve the level his son who had a hidden potential reached, and the one upped it by many magnitudes and it was all off screen. Even Goten all we know is he trained with Chi Chi. Yet Goten was the youngest SSJ in the series. So we are either led to believe Goten was significantly stronger or Chi Chi was a great trainer or a combination of both.

Nos lets go to Jiren. He trained. We know why he trained. We know he is of a different race. We know he felt betrayed and it reinforced his motivation. We know it made him supremely dedicated to the singular cause of justice.

Goku and Gohan are the only characters in the series that we saw get their power every step of the way. And really only Gohan because like I said, Goku has the whole 7 year gap where he crossed a massive amount of a power increase off page. And I'll tell you what, it's a lot easier for me to just except that Jiren was a twisted version of Goku/Batman who just did whatever he could to train to an incredibly high level, than it is for me to say Gohan getting two power boosts by two gods unlocking his power is more interesting.

Sometimes not knowing everything is more interesting than knowing it. Your imagination can create the most satisfying explanation possible. You already hypothesized that he may have trained with a god of destruction. The possibilities are endless. Would it really make it better to know that some god unlocked his hidden power for him, or that he was a Freeza type whose race gets massive benefits from training, or maybe he gets zenkai's too and blew himself up a lot, or whatever? All we need to know is he had a tragedy, wanted to get insanely strong, made himself insanely strong, and now he's built himself into this massive unstoppable force of pure power and concentration that our heroes can't beat. And considering he quite possibly may be the last antagonist in his franchise, that's fine. It reinforces the narrative that for Goku there will always be that one stronger guy out there that motivates him to get stronger. We don't need to know how that one guy got as powerful as he did.

[Shuby]

So I read this post. The first time you attempt to make an argument it goes into the Jiran discussion. Even that was just your opinion of Jiran and had nothing to do with your initial argument of why was he so strong. Jiran is a standoffish superhero caricature. His backstory explains why he is a standoffish super hero character. He believes in justice because he wanted avenge his parents, he's standoffish because he doesn't trust people since he was betrayed by his former team. The character is basically Batman. He's very driven to the point of insanity and is an unsocial prick. Despite popular opinion, a character doesn't have to be likeable to be a good character.

Kid Boo had tons of personality, but he was one of the least interesting villains of not only the series but of the different versions of Boo.

We don't need to know how Jiran got this strong. Cell got stronger because he started weak and his goal was to absorb the Androids to realize his strength. Boo got stronger because characters were fusing and unlocking their potential to get ahead of him so he needed a counter. Freeza the first time we saw him was actually the same strength, his transformation were self imposed locks.

If you're talking about Freeza in Super. How is rationalizing that Jiran got strong through a life's worth of training harder to believe than Freeza spending a couple of months to go from below SSJ to on par with SSJB? It took Goku anywhere from 10-15 years to reach what Freeza did in a couple of months.

Frieza was a mutant who was born strong
We were literally shown that Jiren was once weak but somehow has become stronger than his god of destruction and it's implied he did it alone
That's pretty unique to dragon ball
Cell, buu. And most villains were born with their strength or made with it
With Frieza getting stronger it was explained he simply had that kind of potential
Jiren was made to look like an ordinary kid in his backstory. That training aspect makes him different then the mentioned villains, what kind of training did he do? Did the god of destruction help him getting stronger? Many questions which you may not find interesting, unfortunately for you i think most people who are A fan of this series want at least to know how he got so strong.

How did Roshi get as strong as he did? He trained with Mutaito and Korin. We never saw it.
How did Tenshinhan get as strong as he did at the 22nd tournament? He trained with the Crane school. We never saw it.
How did Tao get as strong as he was? Presumably he trained with his brother. We never saw it.
How did Zarbon/Dodoria any of the Ginyu's get as strong as they did? They either trained or were born that way. We didn't need to see it.
How did Freeza get as strong as was? Actually we didn't know Freeza was a prodigy who never really trained until very recently. And then he trained offscreen and in a matter of months did what it took a decade for the two strongest protagonists to do. So why didn't Freeza train before going to Earth? He would have destroyed them.
Ok Cell and the Androids were created? Hmmm... How did an average Earth scientist figure out the way to create Androids that strong? We know he did, we didn't get any details.
What about Boo? So presumably anybody of Babidi's race can create Boo? If so why didn't Babidi create a new Boo? If he can't, why could Bibidi? What did Bibidi do to create Boo?
Beerus presumably was just born that way.
Piccolo grew from a child to an adult in 3 years. Was he just naturally that strong? He was stronger than his father. Did he train that whole time? If so how did he do it?

You can do that with everybody who isn't Goku. And even with Goku we have no idea what he did to reach SSJ3 in a seven year period. In seven years Goku became the only other person to achieve the level his son who had a hidden potential reached, and the one upped it by many magnitudes and it was all off screen. Even Goten all we know is he trained with Chi Chi. Yet Goten was the youngest SSJ in the series. So we are either led to believe Goten was significantly stronger or Chi Chi was a great trainer or a combination of both.

Nos lets go to Jiren. He trained. We know why he trained. We know he is of a different race. We know he felt betrayed and it reinforced his motivation. We know it made him supremely dedicated to the singular cause of justice.

Goku and Gohan are the only characters in the series that we saw get their power every step of the way. And really only Gohan because like I said, Goku has the whole 7 year gap where he crossed a massive amount of a power increase off page. And I'll tell you what, it's a lot easier for me to just except that Jiren was a twisted version of Goku/Batman who just did whatever he could to train to an incredibly high level, than it is for me to say Gohan getting two power boosts by two gods unlocking his power is more interesting.

Sometimes not knowing everything is more interesting than knowing it. Your imagination can create the most satisfying explanation possible. You already hypothesized that he may have trained with a god of destruction. The possibilities are endless. Would it really make it better to know that some god unlocked his hidden power for him, or that he was a Freeza type whose race gets massive benefits from training, or maybe he gets zenkai's too and blew himself up a lot, or whatever? All we need to know is he had a tragedy, wanted to get insanely strong, made himself insanely strong, and now he's built himself into this massive unstoppable force of pure power and concentration that our heroes can't beat. And considering he quite possibly may be the last antagonist in his franchise, that's fine. It reinforces the narrative that for Goku there will always be that one stronger guy out there that motivates him to get stronger. We don't need to know how that one guy got as powerful as he did.

At the same token we saw Goku and Vegeta train to ascend to godhood, Gohan train with Piccolo, remember king kai training the z-fighters? Or even what Frieza's training was all about to reach Golden form, so the series as not completely left things out for us fans to left wondering. Hell, Jiren could've learned an ability that would make him stronger or someone unlocked his hidden potential? Like how Goten and Trunks trained for the ability to learn fushion or Gohan's power unlocked. Just because the series hasn't told us everything doesn't mean it has to do so and people demanding to know want everything to be spoon-fed

[Shuby]

So I read this post. The first time you attempt to make an argument it goes into the Jiran discussion. Even that was just your opinion of Jiran and had nothing to do with your initial argument of why was he so strong. Jiran is a standoffish superhero caricature. His backstory explains why he is a standoffish super hero character. He believes in justice because he wanted avenge his parents, he's standoffish because he doesn't trust people since he was betrayed by his former team. The character is basically Batman. He's very driven to the point of insanity and is an unsocial prick. Despite popular opinion, a character doesn't have to be likeable to be a good character.

Kid Boo had tons of personality, but he was one of the least interesting villains of not only the series but of the different versions of Boo.

We don't need to know how Jiran got this strong. Cell got stronger because he started weak and his goal was to absorb the Androids to realize his strength. Boo got stronger because characters were fusing and unlocking their potential to get ahead of him so he needed a counter. Freeza the first time we saw him was actually the same strength, his transformation were self imposed locks.

If you're talking about Freeza in Super. How is rationalizing that Jiran got strong through a life's worth of training harder to believe than Freeza spending a couple of months to go from below SSJ to on par with SSJB? It took Goku anywhere from 10-15 years to reach what Freeza did in a couple of months.

Frieza was a mutant who was born strong
We were literally shown that Jiren was once weak but somehow has become stronger than his god of destruction and it's implied he did it alone
That's pretty unique to dragon ball
Cell, buu. And most villains were born with their strength or made with it
With Frieza getting stronger it was explained he simply had that kind of potential
Jiren was made to look like an ordinary kid in his backstory. That training aspect makes him different then the mentioned villains, what kind of training did he do? Did the god of destruction help him getting stronger? Many questions which you may not find interesting, unfortunately for you i think most people who are A fan of this series want at least to know how he got so strong.

How did Roshi get as strong as he did? He trained with Mutaito and Korin. We never saw it.
How did Tenshinhan get as strong as he did at the 22nd tournament? He trained with the Crane school. We never saw it.
How did Tao get as strong as he was? Presumably he trained with his brother. We never saw it.
How did Zarbon/Dodoria any of the Ginyu's get as strong as they did? They either trained or were born that way. We didn't need to see it.
How did Freeza get as strong as was? Actually we didn't know Freeza was a prodigy who never really trained until very recently. And then he trained offscreen and in a matter of months did what it took a decade for the two strongest protagonists to do. So why didn't Freeza train before going to Earth? He would have destroyed them.
Ok Cell and the Androids were created? Hmmm... How did an average Earth scientist figure out the way to create Androids that strong? We know he did, we didn't get any details.
What about Boo? So presumably anybody of Babidi's race can create Boo? If so why didn't Babidi create a new Boo? If he can't, why could Bibidi? What did Bibidi do to create Boo?
Beerus presumably was just born that way.
Piccolo grew from a child to an adult in 3 years. Was he just naturally that strong? He was stronger than his father. Did he train that whole time? If so how did he do it?

You can do that with everybody who isn't Goku. And even with Goku we have no idea what he did to reach SSJ3 in a seven year period. In seven years Goku became the only other person to achieve the level his son who had a hidden potential reached, and the one upped it by many magnitudes and it was all off screen. Even Goten all we know is he trained with Chi Chi. Yet Goten was the youngest SSJ in the series. So we are either led to believe Goten was significantly stronger or Chi Chi was a great trainer or a combination of both.

Nos lets go to Jiren. He trained. We know why he trained. We know he is of a different race. We know he felt betrayed and it reinforced his motivation. We know it made him supremely dedicated to the singular cause of justice.

Goku and Gohan are the only characters in the series that we saw get their power every step of the way. And really only Gohan because like I said, Goku has the whole 7 year gap where he crossed a massive amount of a power increase off page. And I'll tell you what, it's a lot easier for me to just except that Jiren was a twisted version of Goku/Batman who just did whatever he could to train to an incredibly high level, than it is for me to say Gohan getting two power boosts by two gods unlocking his power is more interesting.

Sometimes not knowing everything is more interesting than knowing it. Your imagination can create the most satisfying explanation possible. You already hypothesized that he may have trained with a god of destruction. The possibilities are endless. Would it really make it better to know that some god unlocked his hidden power for him, or that he was a Freeza type whose race gets massive benefits from training, or maybe he gets zenkai's too and blew himself up a lot, or whatever? All we need to know is he had a tragedy, wanted to get insanely strong, made himself insanely strong, and now he's built himself into this massive unstoppable force of pure power and concentration that our heroes can't beat. And considering he quite possibly may be the last antagonist in his franchise, that's fine. It reinforces the narrative that for Goku there will always be that one stronger guy out there that motivates him to get stronger. We don't need to know how that one guy got as powerful as he did.

So the fact that they failed to make Jiren somehow interesting has failed miserably, which is why i, and probably many want to know how he became so strong and wanted more to his backstory which turned out to be extremely cliche. You know, trying to grasp something interesting about him\?

[lancerman]

Frieza was a mutant who was born strong
We were literally shown that Jiren was once weak but somehow has become stronger than his god of destruction and it's implied he did it alone
That's pretty unique to dragon ball
Cell, buu. And most villains were born with their strength or made with it
With Frieza getting stronger it was explained he simply had that kind of potential
Jiren was made to look like an ordinary kid in his backstory. That training aspect makes him different then the mentioned villains, what kind of training did he do? Did the god of destruction help him getting stronger? Many questions which you may not find interesting, unfortunately for you i think most people who are A fan of this series want at least to know how he got so strong.

How did Roshi get as strong as he did? He trained with Mutaito and Korin. We never saw it.
How did Tenshinhan get as strong as he did at the 22nd tournament? He trained with the Crane school. We never saw it.
How did Tao get as strong as he was? Presumably he trained with his brother. We never saw it.
How did Zarbon/Dodoria any of the Ginyu's get as strong as they did? They either trained or were born that way. We didn't need to see it.
How did Freeza get as strong as was? Actually we didn't know Freeza was a prodigy who never really trained until very recently. And then he trained offscreen and in a matter of months did what it took a decade for the two strongest protagonists to do. So why didn't Freeza train before going to Earth? He would have destroyed them.
Ok Cell and the Androids were created? Hmmm... How did an average Earth scientist figure out the way to create Androids that strong? We know he did, we didn't get any details.
What about Boo? So presumably anybody of Babidi's race can create Boo? If so why didn't Babidi create a new Boo? If he can't, why could Bibidi? What did Bibidi do to create Boo?
Beerus presumably was just born that way.
Piccolo grew from a child to an adult in 3 years. Was he just naturally that strong? He was stronger than his father. Did he train that whole time? If so how did he do it?

You can do that with everybody who isn't Goku. And even with Goku we have no idea what he did to reach SSJ3 in a seven year period. In seven years Goku became the only other person to achieve the level his son who had a hidden potential reached, and the one upped it by many magnitudes and it was all off screen. Even Goten all we know is he trained with Chi Chi. Yet Goten was the youngest SSJ in the series. So we are either led to believe Goten was significantly stronger or Chi Chi was a great trainer or a combination of both.

Nos lets go to Jiren. He trained. We know why he trained. We know he is of a different race. We know he felt betrayed and it reinforced his motivation. We know it made him supremely dedicated to the singular cause of justice.

Goku and Gohan are the only characters in the series that we saw get their power every step of the way. And really only Gohan because like I said, Goku has the whole 7 year gap where he crossed a massive amount of a power increase off page. And I'll tell you what, it's a lot easier for me to just except that Jiren was a twisted version of Goku/Batman who just did whatever he could to train to an incredibly high level, than it is for me to say Gohan getting two power boosts by two gods unlocking his power is more interesting.

Sometimes not knowing everything is more interesting than knowing it. Your imagination can create the most satisfying explanation possible. You already hypothesized that he may have trained with a god of destruction. The possibilities are endless. Would it really make it better to know that some god unlocked his hidden power for him, or that he was a Freeza type whose race gets massive benefits from training, or maybe he gets zenkai's too and blew himself up a lot, or whatever? All we need to know is he had a tragedy, wanted to get insanely strong, made himself insanely strong, and now he's built himself into this massive unstoppable force of pure power and concentration that our heroes can't beat. And considering he quite possibly may be the last antagonist in his franchise, that's fine. It reinforces the narrative that for Goku there will always be that one stronger guy out there that motivates him to get stronger. We don't need to know how that one guy got as powerful as he did.

So the fact that they failed to make Jiren somehow interesting has failed miserably, which is why i, and probably many want to know how he became so strong and wanted more to his backstory which turned out to be extremely cliche. You know, trying to grasp something interesting about him\?

And it’s backwords thinking. How a character got powerful has no bearing on how interesting the character is. Goku started the series incredibly strong and was the most interesting character from that arc on. We saw training afterwards, but he was already interesting.

Like I said, you hypothesized something about his training that you found interesting. The actual explanation might just be worse and you’ll be upset.

The only valid complaint here is that in your opinion Jiren isn’t an interesting character. That’s entirely subjective. You just want additions that might make him more interesting to you.

[TheShadowEmperor8055]

Super isn't over yet, so it would be better to rather wait until that before we judge the product as a whole.

There's only three episodes left. Even if by some miracle those episodes are the greatest things ever, that won't change the fact that I hated a vast majority of the show.

Then that is just you. The fact that you hated the majority of the show doesn't poke a hole in my argument.

There were people who enjoyed the hell out of Super, and maybe were willing to even put it side-to-side with Z... until the recent spoilers come out and a good amount of those people do a complete 180 and are now disgusted with the outcome (personally, I didn't enjoy the hell out of Super nor did I hate the majority of it, but I still don't like the outcome the spoilers imply either).

The response from the fandom from these revelations is why, like I said, we wait until the show is over in its entirety before judging it.

[Aman]

This series has lacked an iconic antagonist. I don't any of them from Super will be remembered like Frieza, Cell and Buu are.

Closest they got was Zamasu but they messed that up with the ending of that arc.