"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[JulieYBM]

The idea makes sense to me. You have a character that Toriyama suggests not talk (something unique among his antagonists), so why not play off of that? The audience and the characters don't understand Jiren, all they know is he is coming after them ceaselessly. They don't know why he's fighting, they just know that he is. Do Information shut-out to make the characters and audiences frustrated and fearful. Jiren merely is. Save any sort of dialogue or monologue for the end of the fight, when it's time to finally shock the audience by telling the end of the Tournament of Power from Jiren's point of view, rather than Gokuu's point of view as it had been up to that point. A sudden, shocking change to make the tournament's ending all the more unforgettable.

[Kamiccolo9]

And then people get all pissed because they never reveal Jiren's shoe size, or his favorite color. Because information overload seems to be the norm for fans these days.

[HeroR]

The idea makes sense to me. You have a character that Toriyama suggests not talk (something unique among his antagonists), so why not play off of that? The audience and the characters don't understand Jiren, all they know is he is coming after them ceaselessly. They don't know why he's fighting, they just know that he is. Do Information shut-out to make the characters and audiences frustrated and fearful. Jiren merely is. Save any sort of dialogue or monologue for the end of the fight, when it's time to finally shock the audience by telling the end of the Tournament of Power from Jiren's point of view, rather than Gokuu's point of view as it had been up to that point. A sudden, shocking change to make the tournament's ending all the more unforgettable.

The problem is that despite Jiren's power, no one really feared him. They were shock and stunned by Jiren, but he never provoke overwhelming fear like many of the Z villains. I mean, the entire point of Jiren wasting Goku was because U11 thought it would break everyone's spirit and they were submit to Jiren's power, but instead the opposite happened. So it seemed Jiren was built as the 'ultimate power' for the characters to say 'so what' to and challenged it.

[Spider-Man]

And then people get all pissed because they never reveal Jiren's shoe size, or his favorite color. Because information overload seems to be the norm for fans these days.

His shoe size is eight

You know I'm thinking the staff wanted Jiren to be some kind of forces of nature as shown in the special.

[Guesswhoo]

Only two of those revelation suprised me (Ribrianne being fat since the beginning and Jiren being the silent character), but it seems to me that some actually criticise the quality of the revelation which, in my opinion, is flawed since we talk about Toriyama here guys ! Toriyama is all about how the story progress from simple or lame information. Goku being an alien was probably one of the lamest twist and yet Akira Toriyama made an iconic story on top of it. Same goes for things like Frieza last form, SSJ3 design, the Ginyu force, all of Buu arc (My favorite arc with Frieza).
The main problem here is how Toriyama only gave the "lame outline" without taking into account the fact that no one will think like him.

All of DB (if it was an anime only) wouldn't be the same if Toriyama only gave outline to Toei, in that way it is a fault from both side.

[HeroR]

Only two of those revelation suprised me (Ribrianne being fat since the beginning and Jiren being the silent character), but it seems to me that some actually criticise the quality of the revelation which, in my opinion, is flawed since we talk about Toriyama here guys ! Toriyama is all about how the story progress from simple or lame information. Goku being an alien was probably one of the lamest twist and yet Akira Toriyama made an iconic story on top of it. Same goes for things like Frieza last form, SSJ3 design, the Ginyu force, all of Buu arc (My favorite arc with Frieza).
The main problem here is how Toriyama only gave the "lame outline" without taking into account the fact that no one will think like him.

All of DB (if it was an anime only) wouldn't be the same if Toriyama only gave outline to Toei, in that way it is a fault from both side.

He does and he doesn't want people to 'think like him'. He actually told Toyo to be more bold.

[darzap]

I don't think there is anything particularly amatuerish about how they're thinking when writing Super.

I think the writing in the last arc was terrible.
They were completely unable to create the illusion of a battle Royal when there was no indication of anything of relevance happening away from the main characters after the first episode.
They were completely unable to be even remotely consistent in power scaling, it was all over the place.
They were completely unable to be consistent with previously established mechanics. We've never seen anyone recover multiple times in a matter of minutes from going all out. They are simply unable to create tension without multiple all-out battles for the main characters and they created that problem on their own by making the tournament a single fight. They can have multiple fights to have multiple highlights and allow them to recover or they can have a single fight and make a point of stamina budgeting (which they did!) but they tried to do both, which is completely impossible when trying to make it believable.
The amount of time spent with various opponents was completely disproportionate to their relevance.
The ridiculous gap in power they created with Jiren, when nobody forced them to create that problem, required multiple a**pulls to bridge it and the "That's not even my final form"-cliche was abused to absurdity with Jiren, not in a matter of an arc but in a matter of a single-digit number of episodes.

They create a unique new scenario - great.
They make sure to establish the special circumstances of that new scenario - great.
They throw it all out of the window after one or two episodes, write it they way they write other arcs and contradict the rules they've just established left and right - why?

Don't get me wrong, I do watch every episode because I do like the characters and want to see what happens to them, but the writing in the last arc is terrible.

Even the previous arc, though...
Goku Black concept? Great. Zamasu concept? Great. Future Trunks? Great. The whole thing about Trunks protecting people, growing beyond his limits and managing to strike at the heart of the full-of-himself guy that underestimated him was a great point to make. But they completely undermine it right away by killing everything that was just protected right away after that and conclude in a way that makes the whole arc pointless (They could have switched to another timeline from the start) and throws everything away that they've just invested in. That's as if Sauron revived right after the destruction of the Ring, killed almost everybody and Gandalf took Frodo and Sam over to the blessed realm Valinor, saying "On second thought, screw Middle-Earth, we can just live in paradise anyway."

[Saturnine]

And they very well should listen to Toriyama to the degree they are. When they don't, we get stuff like a Piccolo that loses his halo when he gets condemned to hell or a Dende that forgets he can heal people.

When they listen to him they might get a head-blown off Cell plothole that can only be explained by made-up fan explanations so I hope you are not serious with your insignificant plotholes.

I would hardly say that entirely forgetting how afterlife is supposed to work, and how only the chosen keep their bodies after death is "insignificant". It contradicts something explicitly stated by Toriyama. Cell regenerating from his top being blown off was not the same sort of thing, since the bit about his single core cell was added later than that. It was pretty inexcusable too, but I don't see how the shit done in GT was insignificant.

[sintzu]

Based on that interview, I think what Toriyama sets up has something to do with Freeza or Zeno saying he wants a 3rd tournament between u7 and the other 4 universes. The surprise at the end is most likely a preview from the movie.

[Hawk9211]

The full translation has dropped:
[spoiler]https://www.google.com.pk/url?sa=t&sour ... 4h7snj0m-R[/spoiler]

Based on that interview, I think what Toriyama sets up has something to do with Freeza or Zeno saying he wants a 3rd tournament between u7 and the other 4 universes. The surprise at the end is most likely a preview from the movie.

Conspiracy theory time
We all know that Toriyama is very good at joining different plot lines and form some sort of structured story aka back shadowing.

Similarly,we know that it was mentioned that zeno destroyed six universes.Most of universes were not given much thought and there is supposed to be some surprise so, what if those universes get revived and we have another tournament.

[Grimlock]

Even after the story is over, please keep watching to the end and don’t change the channel. There’ll be something special!

I'll be positive this time and I'll allow myself to get a little excited, therefore... Don't disappoint me more than you already did, Dragon Ball Super. End with a nice cliffhanger to get us pumped for the future! Don't you dare be like Movie 15, that it was all Freeza saying "No!" in a not cool (lit, not a Steve Carell) way.

[Kanassa]

Goku losing to Jiren in no way makes UI pointless, nor its build up; it was still absolutely vital in Universe 7's survival, going by the spoilers.

[sintzu]

we know that it was mentioned that zeno destroyed six universes.Most of universes were not given much thought and there is supposed to be some surprise so, what if those universes get revived and we have another tournament.

If the wish is worded "bring back the universes Zeno erased" then they should be brought back with the others. We'd also be introduced to 6 new destroyers.

[TheMikado]

And then people get all pissed because they never reveal Jiren's shoe size, or his favorite color. Because information overload seems to be the norm for fans these days.

His shoe size is eight

You know I'm thinking the staff wanted Jiren to be some kind of forces of nature as shown in the special.

That seems to be the intention but he wholly lacks charisma.

Interestingly enough we see something similar in Broly with Toriyama designing both his sedated state and buff state.

We also see very different internal reactions to the overwhelming power. I think I more well thought out aspect would have been someone like frieza cowering in fear from the sheer power of Jiren as someone who prides himself on being the most powerful. Plus it would help the audience realize the sheer magnitude of the power rather than everyone just kinda being cool with this ultra powerful dude just hanging out in the middle of a royal rumble.

[HeroR]

I personally found this interesting:

Were Universe 11’s Pride Troopers part of Toriyama-sensei‘s designs?
Nakamura: They weren’t in his designs, but since Jiren and co. all wore the same red and black suits, he allowed us to flesh it out like that.
Takami: In sensei‘s initial rough draft, there was no information indicating Jiren’s personality. Since the tough opponents in Dragon Ball Super up until then had been nihilistic, cool characters like Hit or Zamasu, we thought it might be best to make Jiren very talkative, so we came up with the background of him being a hero of justice. Jiren was central to this squadron of heroes.

Nakamura: When we suggested that to Toriyama-sensei, he replied that “Jiren is a character who doesn’t speak.” It was then that Toriyama-sensei sent us the backstory that his parents and martial arts master had been killed. He said that Jiren was this type of character, in contrast to Hit or Zamasu.

Takami: And so the characterization of Jiren that we originally came up with was passed on to Toppo.

And I loved this:

I see; that’s certainly true. The Turtle Hermit might be the biggest example of that.
Nakamura: The Turtle Hermit normally just goofs around, but he’s actually a very serious person. Working on the Tournament of Power has given me an idea: perhaps Goku breaks through his limits because he’s taken to heart the Turtle Hermit’s lesson, back when he beat Goku at the Tenka’ichi Budōkai and told him that “there’s always room to improve.” Ultimately Goku doesn’t fight to kill his opponents, but instead to test his own limits and not lose. I think he’s someone who wants to see new worlds, meet strong new people, and be stimulated so that a new and unknown version of himself will emerge. I think that since the Turtle Hermit’s teachings paved the way for “Ultra Instinct”, this is a theme that runs from Goku’s childhood in Dragon Ball all the way to Dragon Ball Super.

[HeroR]

Goku losing to Jiren in no way makes UI pointless, nor its build up; it was still absolutely vital in Universe 7's survival, going by the spoilers.

Who says they survived

[TheMikado]

Goku losing to Jiren in no way makes UI pointless, nor its build up; it was still absolutely vital in Universe 7's survival, going by the spoilers.

I think the problem is the way it’s presented in the manga as unbeatable in its perfected form. If Goku perfected it, by the mangas info it should be unbeatable so it will be interesting to see how that pans out. Maybe it becomes a stamina issue and Goku is winning but exhausts himself.

[Kanassa]

Goku losing to Jiren in no way makes UI pointless, nor its build up; it was still absolutely vital in Universe 7's survival, going by the spoilers.

Who says they survived

The EOZ as really just a last minute hallucination everyone collectively imagined when facing their erasure. Especially the gay cop hitting on Trunks.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I personally found this interesting:

Were Universe 11’s Pride Troopers part of Toriyama-sensei‘s designs?
Nakamura: They weren’t in his designs, but since Jiren and co. all wore the same red and black suits, he allowed us to flesh it out like that.
Takami: In sensei‘s initial rough draft, there was no information indicating Jiren’s personality. Since the tough opponents in Dragon Ball Super up until then had been nihilistic, cool characters like Hit or Zamasu, we thought it might be best to make Jiren very talkative, so we came up with the background of him being a hero of justice. Jiren was central to this squadron of heroes.

Nakamura: When we suggested that to Toriyama-sensei, he replied that “Jiren is a character who doesn’t speak.” It was then that Toriyama-sensei sent us the backstory that his parents and martial arts master had been killed. He said that Jiren was this type of character, in contrast to Hit or Zamasu.

Takami: And so the characterization of Jiren that we originally came up with was passed on to Toppo.

And I loved this:

I see; that’s certainly true. The Turtle Hermit might be the biggest example of that.
Nakamura: The Turtle Hermit normally just goofs around, but he’s actually a very serious person. Working on the Tournament of Power has given me an idea: perhaps Goku breaks through his limits because he’s taken to heart the Turtle Hermit’s lesson, back when he beat Goku at the Tenka’ichi Budōkai and told him that “there’s always room to improve.” Ultimately Goku doesn’t fight to kill his opponents, but instead to test his own limits and not lose. I think he’s someone who wants to see new worlds, meet strong new people, and be stimulated so that a new and unknown version of himself will emerge. I think that since the Turtle Hermit’s teachings paved the way for “Ultra Instinct”, this is a theme that runs from Goku’s childhood in Dragon Ball all the way to Dragon Ball Super.

That's some high-class nostalgia there, the kind I'm all for.

[BlueBasilisk]

Goku losing to Jiren in no way makes UI pointless, nor its build up; it was still absolutely vital in Universe 7's survival, going by the spoilers.

This quote makes me think they're going for another Goku/Pikkon type of situation:

Ultra Instinct goes into operation in ep.129, and everyone’s very interested in what will happen in the final two episodes, but…?!

Nakamura: I’m sure everyone realizes this too, but in a situation like this, the story’s not going to end with Goku simply firing a Kamehameha and finishing Jiren off, like with previous villains (laughs).
After all, Jiren isn’t evil

Nakamura: No, he’s not. Jiren carries a lot of baggage and doesn’t live his life based on malice. Ultimately no matter who wins or loses, though they both have different stances, when the battle is over they might feel something new. A bit like Bushido.8

I see; so they’re letting their fists do the talking.

Nakamura: I want children to pick up on what Jiren learns and feels from fighting Goku. I think it’s probably something that can be applied out in the real world, too. Since others won’t share all of the same sensibilities as you; in fact, most people don’t think the same way you do. In this series it’s a physical battle, but I think everyone has had a time where they’ve felt something when their ideas clashed against someone else’s. I think Toriyama-sensei‘s Universe Survival arc is that sort of story. I made it with that interpretation in mind.

Takami: Director Nakamura has pulled the Universe Survival arc along up until now, and the last two episodes feature storyboards and direction that he put his whole heart and soul into. I truly can’t say anything else than “don’t miss it!”

Nakamura: No, it’s nothing special… but still, I’ve never fretted over anything as much as this before. Personally I think the ending to episode 131 is very fitting. While the Universe Survival arc may be Goku’s story, I think it might actually be Jiren’s story, too. I think that was Toriyama-sensei‘s intention when he set up someone like Jiren as the greatest rival, someone who’s not simply evil. I made it with that interpretation in mind, but I wonder how everyone else will feel about it.

Jiren's the uptight asshole rival who learns something valuable from Goku and maybe vice-versa. It's not really something new for DB and it's been done with other characters too, but I felt like that was the best comparison considering the circumstances where they met.

I think the problem is the way it’s presented in the manga as unbeatable in its perfected form. If Goku perfected it, by the mangas info it should be unbeatable so it will be interesting to see how that pans out. Maybe it becomes a stamina issue and Goku is winning but exhausts himself.

Could be something dumb too. Whis stepped in poop during his original explanation of the Ultra instinct concept.