Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[wolflonnie]

SSB Vegetto is a bit stronger than Beerus, just a tiny bit.
The anime likes its drama and went overboard with some things, but SSB Vegetto can't be weaker than the likes of Kefla, Toppo, etc. It's just bad execution.

[Marlowe89]

vegito was said to maby be above beerus by shin in the manga but even toyatoro basically said he probably wrong

Toyotaro never said that.

[Kenneth La Torre]

vegito was said to maby be above beerus by shin in the manga but even toyatoro basically said he probably wrong

Toyotaro never said that.

He basically did. In an interview they asked toyotaro who is stronger, and he said something along the lines of: I don’t know but Supreme Kai said vegeto is stronger. He then poked fun of shin being wrong manybtime before.

What I think is that toriyama never made a statement on vegitos power compared to beerus (which leads me to believe that vegito isn’t on beerus level), and that’s something toyotaro made shin say do to him not being a reliable source when it comes to power scaling (at least not all the time). But this is just my opinion.

[Marlowe89]

He basically did.

He didn't. The source is allegedly from an interview at a Comic Con in Italy, where Toyotaro just reiterated what Shin said without elaborating any further as to the certainty of his comparison. That's quite a far cry from "he's probably wrong", notwithstanding the fact that it wouldn't make any sense to have that dialogue in the chapter to begin with if Beerus was that far ahead of Vegito. It's not even a verified interview anyway.

If they weren't at least somewhat comparable in strength then there wouldn't be a statement to debate over in the first place.

[Helios518]

He didn't. The source is allegedly from an interview at a Comic Con in Italy, where Toyotaro just reiterated what Shin said without elaborating any further as to the certainty of his comparison. That's quite a far cry from "he's probably wrong", notwithstanding the fact that it wouldn't make any sense to have that dialogue in the chapter to begin with if Beerus was that far ahead of Vegito. It's not even a verified interview anyway.
If they weren't at least somewhat comparable in strength then there wouldn't be a statement to debate over in the first place.

This hundred times. I don't understand the people that believe a "may/might be" statement could be used to compare two things that the answer is so obvious on. For example, you wouldn't say "A jet might be faster than a snail" when the difference is clear.

[Kaiosama]

He had at least 75,000,000 years to get UI, if he didn’t get it by now, he won’t get it sooner.

True, but he's never before had mortals in his universe capable of rivaling him.

[Kenneth La Torre]

He didn't. The source is allegedly from an interview at a Comic Con in Italy, where Toyotaro just reiterated what Shin said without elaborating any further as to the certainty of his comparison. That's quite a far cry from "he's probably wrong", notwithstanding the fact that it wouldn't make any sense to have that dialogue in the chapter to begin with if Beerus was that far ahead of Vegito. It's not even a verified interview anyway.
If they weren't at least somewhat comparable in strength then there wouldn't be a statement to debate over in the first place.

This hundred times. I don't understand the people that believe a "may/might be" statement could be used to compare two things that the answer is so obvious on. For example, you wouldn't say "A jet might be faster than a snail" when the difference is clear.

That’s because a jet has been shown faster than a snail. We know the speed of a snail, and the speed of a jet. We know the power of vegito blue, but beerus has never shown his full power .What has vegito blue done that puts him on beerus level? Fight merged zamasu? That’s it? The same merged zamasu that it’s below a UI omen goku and suppressed jiren, who are far outclassed by a MUI goku who is only perhaps stronger than beerus?

Very bad comparison.

[Helios518]

That’s because a jet has been shown faster than a snail. We know the speed of a snail, and the speed of a jet. 1) We know the power of vegito blue, but beerus has never shown his full power. What has vegito blue done that puts him on beerus level? Fight merged zamasu? That’s it? The same merged zamasu that it’s below a UI omen goku and suppressed jiren, who are far outclassed by a MUI goku who is only perhaps stronger than beerus?

Very bad comparison.

They both have feats of stomping the same level of opponent. In fact, we've never seen Manga SSJB Vegetto serious or pushed. Despite that, I don't really believe Shin's statement holds that much because he never seen Beerus's power as far as we know. Also the manga isn't in the same continuity as the anime.

But regardless, my statement was mainly in the broad sense but if you want DB example, the people that believe "GoD Toppo = Beerus <<< Omen < UI" but somehow think that scale fits with the "UI Goku may be stronger than Beerus" statement is a good example.

[Kenneth La Torre]

That’s because a jet has been shown faster than a snail. We know the speed of a snail, and the speed of a jet. 1) We know the power of vegito blue, but beerus has never shown his full power. What has vegito blue done that puts him on beerus level? Fight merged zamasu? That’s it? The same merged zamasu that it’s below a UI omen goku and suppressed jiren, who are far outclassed by a MUI goku who is only perhaps stronger than beerus?

Very bad comparison.

They both have feats of stomping the same level of opponent. In fact, we've never seen Manga SSJB Vegetto serious or pushed. Despite that, I don't really believe Shin's statement holds that much because he never seen Beerus's power as far as we know. Also the manga isn't in the same continuity as the anime.

But regardless, my statement was mainly in the broad sense but if you want DB example, the people that believe "GoD Toppo = Beerus <<< Omen < UI" but somehow think that scale fits with the "UI Goku may be stronger than Beerus" statement is a good example.

To be honest, it is the shows fault for having people believe that hakaishin toppo was around the level of beerus. Why have belmod state that he is no different than a god of destruction, when you are later going to state that only MUI goku (who was shown far above what a regular UI omen can do, and omen far above what toppo could do) is slightly above G.o.D level? That actually degraded vegetas achievement of defeating a hakaishin.

[GodVegetto91]

That’s because a jet has been shown faster than a snail. We know the speed of a snail, and the speed of a jet. 1) We know the power of vegito blue, but beerus has never shown his full power. What has vegito blue done that puts him on beerus level? Fight merged zamasu? That’s it? The same merged zamasu that it’s below a UI omen goku and suppressed jiren, who are far outclassed by a MUI goku who is only perhaps stronger than beerus?

Very bad comparison.

They both have feats of stomping the same level of opponent. In fact, we've never seen Manga SSJB Vegetto serious or pushed. Despite that, I don't really believe Shin's statement holds that much because he never seen Beerus's power as far as we know. Also the manga isn't in the same continuity as the anime.

But regardless, my statement was mainly in the broad sense but if you want DB example, the people that believe "GoD Toppo = Beerus <<< Omen < UI" but somehow think that scale fits with the "UI Goku may be stronger than Beerus" statement is a good example.

To be honest, it is the shows fault for having people believe that hakaishin toppo was around the level of beerus. Why have belmod state that he is no different than a god of destruction, when you are later going to state that only MUI goku (who was shown far above what a regular UI omen can do, and omen far above what toppo could do) is slightly above G.o.D level? That actually degraded vegetas achievement of defeating a hakaishin.

True. All GoDs should be around the same tier imo for the sake of keeping things simple. This is just one of many things that Toei fucked up.

[Helios518]

They both have feats of stomping the same level of opponent. In fact, we've never seen Manga SSJB Vegetto serious or pushed. Despite that, I don't really believe Shin's statement holds that much because he never seen Beerus's power as far as we know. Also the manga isn't in the same continuity as the anime.

But regardless, my statement was mainly in the broad sense but if you want DB example, the people that believe "GoD Toppo = Beerus <<< Omen < UI" but somehow think that scale fits with the "UI Goku may be stronger than Beerus" statement is a good example.

To be honest, it is the shows fault for having people believe that hakaishin toppo was around the level of beerus. Why have belmod state that he is no different than a god of destruction, when you are later going to state that only MUI goku (who was shown far above what a regular UI omen can do, and omen far above what toppo could do) is slightly above G.o.D level? That actually degraded vegetas achievement of defeating a hakaishin.

True. All GoDs should be around the same tier imo for the sake of keeping things simple. This is just one of many things that Toei fucked up.

Well, Toppo's not in-training for nothing, but true, Toei could've conveyed this way better than they have.

[GodVegetto91]

To be honest, it is the shows fault for having people believe that hakaishin toppo was around the level of beerus. Why have belmod state that he is no different than a god of destruction, when you are later going to state that only MUI goku (who was shown far above what a regular UI omen can do, and omen far above what toppo could do) is slightly above G.o.D level? That actually degraded vegetas achievement of defeating a hakaishin.

True. All GoDs should be around the same tier imo for the sake of keeping things simple. This is just one of many things that Toei fucked up.

Well, Toppo's not in-training for nothing, but true, Toei could've conveyed this way better than they have.

Like i said, the writing of this show really IS bad. This is just one of MANY inconsistencies “they” have pulled. How one single group of people can make THIS many mistakes is beyond me and many other fans.

[brett wheeler]

True. All GoDs should be around the same tier imo for the sake of keeping things simple. This is just one of many things that Toei fucked up.

Well, Toppo's not in-training for nothing, but true, Toei could've conveyed this way better than they have.

Like i said, the writing of this show really IS bad. This is just one of MANY inconsistencies “they” have pulled. How one single group of people can make THIS many mistakes is beyond me and many other fans.

simple dbs doesn't have consistent writing staff, one episodes writer could decide toppo is GoD tier and later a different writer decides he isnt because it looks cooler, this is the apex of inconsistent story telling and just diong something cause its cool and flashy, and if thats not it then I honestly have no clue what this is but it about makes power scaling fucking impossible.

[Kenneth La Torre]

To be honest, it is the shows fault for having people believe that hakaishin toppo was around the level of beerus. Why have belmod state that he is no different than a god of destruction, when you are later going to state that only MUI goku (who was shown far above what a regular UI omen can do, and omen far above what toppo could do) is slightly above G.o.D level? That actually degraded vegetas achievement of defeating a hakaishin.

True. All GoDs should be around the same tier imo for the sake of keeping things simple. This is just one of many things that Toei fucked up.

Well, Toppo's not in-training for nothing, but true, Toei could've conveyed this way better than they have.

True he is in training, But at the same time I would have imagine for him to not be That ridicously below an actual trained hakaishin.

[Helios518]

True. All GoDs should be around the same tier imo for the sake of keeping things simple. This is just one of many things that Toei fucked up.

Well, Toppo's not in-training for nothing, but true, Toei could've conveyed this way better than they have.

True he is in training, But at the same time I would have imagine for him to not be That ridicously below an actual trained hakaishin.

If it makes you feel better, we don’t know how long Toppo’s been training nor his power prior to the training. For all we know, Toppo could’ve started training a month prior and started out as strong as most of the Pride Troopers. Okay, I doubt he started that low considering we have a relatively god tier Pride Trooper running around (pun intended) with seemingly no godly training. You get the drift.

It also doesn’t help that gap from Boo to God tier is one of the biggest in the franchise and the gap between God to GoD tier being similarly as big.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The way I see it, it's still the most sensible solution to assume that only Vegeta's limit-breaking Final Explosion really defeated Hakaishin Toppo.

That way, you preserve Toppo's power, keep Vegeta's power high but not too high, AND Jiren can still completely body Vegeta later on.

[lord turbo]

So the humans are weaker than the ssj kids, let alone their fused ssj3 form. Well, no duh. This is Toei, they put in whatever will look coolest at the moment with no regard for anything else.

If you told them "copy vegeta destroyed ssj3 gotenks, and copy vegeta is equal to base vegeta, who is equal to base goku, who stalemated krillin, so krillin is stronger than ssj3 gotenks", they would look at you like you were insane. Thats about 4 steps further they are capable of thinking.

Only way to make sense of Copy Vegeta is to say he used SBG base, other than that the Toei writers clearly fucked up in regards to power scaling now that this little tidbit of information has been made available to us.

[picc]

So the humans are weaker than the ssj kids, let alone their fused ssj3 form. Well, no duh. This is Toei, they put in whatever will look coolest at the moment with no regard for anything else.

If you told them "copy vegeta destroyed ssj3 gotenks, and copy vegeta is equal to base vegeta, who is equal to base goku, who stalemated krillin, so krillin is stronger than ssj3 gotenks", they would look at you like you were insane. Thats about 4 steps further they are capable of thinking.

Only way to make sense of Copy Vegeta is to say he used SBG base, other than that the Toei writers clearly fucked up in regards to power scaling now that this little tidbit of information has been made available to us.

That, and the idea that Krillin legitimately stalemated a serious base Goku is ridiculous.

[GodVegetto91]

Based on actual powerscaling, regardless of wether things make sense, SSJ Blue Vegetto from the Future Trunks arc is now FAR weaker than the top tier ToP characters.

SSJ Blue Vegito (FT Arc) < UI Omen Goku 110 < Supressed Jiren 110 < UI Omen Goku 116/Kefla < episode 122 SSJ Blue Vegeta (he performed way better against Jiren than UI Omen Goku did!) < SSJ Blue Goku who was keeping up with a MORE POWERFUL Jiren < SSJ Blue Evolution Vegeta/KK X20 SSJ Blue Goku < Android 17 based on feats (which makes no sense, but that’s what the feats say) < Jiren < Current UI Omen Goku < Jiren < Mastered UI Goku!

As you can see, both Merged Zamasu and SSJ Blue Vegetto are so far behind Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku and Jiren now, it’s not even funny anymore.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Based on actual powerscaling, regardless of wether things make sense, SSJ Blue Vegetto from the Future Trunks arc is now FAR weaker than the top tier ToP characters.

SSJ Blue Vegito (FT Arc) < UI Omen Goku 110 < Supressed Jiren 110 < UI Omen Goku 116/Kefla < episode 122 SSJ Blue Vegeta (he performed way better against Jiren than UI Omen Goku did!) < SSJ Blue Goku who was keeping up with a MORE POWERFUL Jiren < SSJ Blue Evolution Vegeta/KK X20 SSJ Blue Goku < Android 17 based on feats (which makes no sense, but that’s what the feats say) < Jiren < Current UI Omen Goku < Jiren < Mastered UI Goku!

As you can see, both Merged Zamasu and SSJ Blue Vegetto are so far behind Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku and Jiren now, it’s not even funny anymore.

As much as I would like to disagree, i don’t see how ssb vegito is on beerus tier at all either. I don’t believe ssb vegito is anywhere near MUI goku, who is still going to be unable to defeat Jiren.