Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Huh? That was supposed to be Super Saiyan 2 Kale? Yeah I don't know how that would make sense to me either.

For one thing, when she first entered the form, Krillin said she had that Berserk power under her control and then Tien said it had increased.

She still maintained her green hair and had no electricity to say she was a Super Saiyan 2 either. When Kefla first transformed she had that same appearance, the green hair and no electricity and that was referred a few times as simply Super Saiyan.

Cabba then noted she went Super Saiyan 2 against Ultra Instinct Goku.

So if Super Saiyan Kale has blonde hair and supposedly Super Saiyan 2 Kale has green hair then why would Super Saiyan Kefla have green hair? Shouldn't she be blonde?

Yeah I prefer the idea that it was just Kale just taking control of her Berserk power in her normal appearance. I'll just wave that aside as video game nonsense for now, unless Heroes call it the same thing.

[brett wheeler]

Huh? That was supposed to be Super Saiyan 2 Kale? Yeah I don't know how that would make sense to me either.

For one thing, when she first entered the form, Krillin said she had that Berserk power under her control and then Tien said it had increased.

She still maintained her green hair and had no electricity to say she was a Super Saiyan 2 either. When Kefla first transformed she had that same appearance, the green hair and no electricity and that was referred a few times as simply Super Saiyan.

Cabba then noted she went Super Saiyan 2 against Ultra Instinct Goku.

So if Super Saiyan Kale has blonde hair and supposedly Super Saiyan 2 Kale has green hair then why would Super Saiyan Kefla have green hair? Shouldn't she be blonde?

Yeah I prefer the idea that it was just Kale just taking control of her Berserk power in her normal appearance. I'll just wave that aside as video game nonsense for now, unless Heroes call it the same thing.

It's very possible that it is her version of ssj2, as ssj kale was capable of keeping up with ssj2 califla and goku in terms of power ( not really combat ability she was like broly just a little more capable ), and since berserk ssj multipliers are different, and the forms are different, we wouldn't be able to tell any way her ssj2 could be a 600× multiplier, and we never know due to the fact it's a new type of ssj,hell berserk form isn't even considered an ssj I terms of anything so her forms are a bit aquard any way, so while I don't disagree that this possibly is just dokkan not knowing what to call the form, it's very possible they called it right and this is her in her own ssj2 form.

[Sandubadear]

Huh? That was supposed to be Super Saiyan 2 Kale? Yeah I don't know how that would make sense to me either.

For one thing, when she first entered the form, Krillin said she had that Berserk power under her control and then Tien said it had increased.

She still maintained her green hair and had no electricity to say she was a Super Saiyan 2 either. When Kefla first transformed she had that same appearance, the green hair and no electricity and that was referred a few times as simply Super Saiyan.

Cabba then noted she went Super Saiyan 2 against Ultra Instinct Goku.

So if Super Saiyan Kale has blonde hair and supposedly Super Saiyan 2 Kale has green hair then why would Super Saiyan Kefla have green hair? Shouldn't she be blonde?

Yeah I prefer the idea that it was just Kale just taking control of her Berserk power in her normal appearance. I'll just wave that aside as video game nonsense for now, unless Heroes call it the same thing.

She has electricity some times.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

[ZombieVito]

Goku and Trunks being somehow able to damage Merged Zamasu, while for Kefla, and just in her SSJ2 form, Goku needs something stronger than KKx20. We're not even sure which KK multiplier he used against Zamasu.
Not to mention, the fanfare around Kefla, and the lack of thereof around Vegetto.

That was initial Merged Zamasu. Once he gets his corrupted form, he's way stronger.

Both Vegetto Blue and Corrupted Zamasu are GoD tier.

[brett wheeler]

Goku and Trunks being somehow able to damage Merged Zamasu, while for Kefla, and just in her SSJ2 form, Goku needs something stronger than KKx20. We're not even sure which KK multiplier he used against Zamasu.
Not to mention, the fanfare around Kefla, and the lack of thereof around Vegetto.

That was initial Merged Zamasu. Once he gets his corrupted form, he's way stronger.

Both Vegetto Blue and Corrupted Zamasu are GoD tier.

apparently toriyama did say at one point that merged zamasu is about as strong as 2 ssb's so him being GoD tier is doubtful, you could say he meant initial but I doubt corrupt gave him that big a boost considering ssb vegito toyed around and only tried as much as jiren has recently, plus spirit bomb sword trunks beat merged zamasu and I doubt he was GoD tier, so more than likely merged zamasu is probably not GoD tier.

[SayianBeyondGod]

To those whom think this shonen jump magazine is indicating MUI Goku surpassed Beerus, then you probably wrong or at least need to take this magazine with a grain of salt. So far even all of the shoden jump magazine scans, don't directly or clearly imply Goku surpassed Beerus, with the statements usually being unclear. So with the given information you can't objectively claim Goku has surpassed Beerus. Here's what a trusted translator said about the context of the scan(the one linked):

Found the relevant passage, no specific mention of might or power, just the generic 超えた which means surpass as you probably guessed. As the guy on Twitter said, Beerus basically isn't sure. The passage is kind of a short summary and the thing goes roughly "Bla Bla Goku's new power was enough to make even Beerus go [ボクを超えたのでは... / Didn't he surpass me... ?]".

I'm assuming ボクを超えたのでは... is the usual cut-off to not bother saying the full "ボクを超えたのではないか？" or something along those lines. So just from this it sounds like it's a line he'd say to himself, wondering if Goku hasn't actually surpassed him.

It's not a clear statement of him admitting to be inferior in any case, more like now he's unsure of how a fight with Goku would go.

So it's pretty much the same trans just different wording. Beerus simply questions UI in both.

Similar to what? Either way, this just proves there's no objective confirmation that Goku surpass Beerus. At best you can say they near or rival each other, considering Beerus questions whether or not Goku surpass him.

[brett wheeler]

To those whom think this shonen jump magazine is indicating MUI Goku surpassed Beerus, then you probably wrong or at least need to take this magazine with a grain of salt. So far even all of the shoden jump magazine scans, don't directly or clearly imply Goku surpassed Beerus, with the statements usually being unclear. So with the given information you can't objectively claim Goku has surpassed Beerus. Here's what a trusted translator said about the context of the scan(the one linked):

So it's pretty much the same trans just different wording. Beerus simply questions UI in both.

Similar to what? Either way, this just proves there's no objective confirmation that Goku surpass Beerus. At best you can say they near or rival each other, considering Beerus questions whether or not Goku surpass him.

thats all everybody has said really tho, that we know beerus questions UI and doesnt know how a fight would go, I mean him putting it as might or hasnt he just implies he is questioning, ergo beerus>=<MUI goku and the difference is negligible, why focus on diffrent wording of the translation that basically means the same thing.

[Simere]

To those whom think this shonen jump magazine is indicating MUI Goku surpassed Beerus, then you probably wrong or at least need to take this magazine with a grain of salt. So far even all of the shoden jump magazine scans, don't directly or clearly imply Goku surpassed Beerus, with the statements usually being unclear. So with the given information you can't objectively claim Goku has surpassed Beerus. Here's what a trusted translator said about the context of the scan(the one linked):

Right or wrong, this person you know that you keep referencing isn't a trusted translator until they've had their translations vetted.

[buutenks]

Wow, some of you are really debating this 'might' thing eh? WHy dont you take a break for a few days, come back sunday and then properly talk with actual statements from the episode.

[SayianBeyondGod]

thats all everybody has said really tho, that we know beerus questions UI and doesnt know how a fight would go, I mean him putting it as might or hasnt he just implies he is questioning, ergo beerus>=<MUI goku and the difference is negligible, why focus on diffrent wording of the translation that basically means the same thing.

Not really, while I'm not going to call out people, when Herms first posted the scan a lot of people just took what's face value and quickly jumped into the conclusion that this is confirmation that Goku surpassed Beerus. Herm doesn't go into much context of the translation beside claiming they're some element of uncertainty, so what do you mean by different wording of translation as Herm's never translates the statement but gives it his thoughts. When he say "might" he's not implying that's what said in the scan but rather what he thinks what is implied rather than the word being in direct use. If you read the post comment Herms doesn't solidify the fact that the any of the kanjis said "might".

Right or wrong, this person you know that you keep referencing isn't a trusted translator until they've had their translations vetted.

Are you telling me the fact he goes into more deeper context than herms did with the kanjis used in the scan, is negligible to credibility. Unless you've got objective reason to dispute the translations I provided then you really don't have any bias to dismiss it. It's like you're committing the genetic fallacy here, in which you attack the source or origin of information, rather than the information itself. No one that speaks Japanese in a high degree has challenged some of Herms translator yet, people are buying it. Despite some of his translations been contradicted by Ken Xyro for example whom turned out to be more correct with spoilers.

[Hugo Boss]

Wow, some of you are really debating this 'might' thing eh? WHy dont you take a break for a few days, come back sunday and then properly talk with actual statements from the episode.

Exactly. There is no confirmation whatsoever. But it doesn’t require too much thinking to see that Goku surpassing Beerus fits well with the narrative DBS has been building. All started with Goku not even close, Beerus always participating in the main events, and their gap being usually brought up. It seems a good conclusion. And heck, Goku needed 3 transformations (SSGod, SSGSS and Ultra Instinct) to get there.

[brett wheeler]

thats all everybody has said really tho, that we know beerus questions UI and doesnt know how a fight would go, I mean him putting it as might or hasnt he just implies he is questioning, ergo beerus>=<MUI goku and the difference is negligible, why focus on diffrent wording of the translation that basically means the same thing.

Not really, while I'm not going to call out people, when Herms first posted the scan a lot of people just took what's face value and quickly jumped into the conclusion that this is confirmation that Goku surpassed Beerus. Herm doesn't go into much context of the translators beside claiming they're some element of uncertainty, so what do you mean by different wording of translation as Herm's never translates the statement but gives it his thoughts. When he say "might" he's not implying that's what said in the scan but rather what he thinks.

well theres always people like that, personally I think MUI goku is stronger but the statement never implies an air of certainty, just rather its in the realm of possibility, also I just meant the difference in the way its translated compared to what herms said, as herms never said it as a fact and even stated there was uncertainty, so even tho it wasnt a full translation he gave a round about idea and people did with it how they will, some people went over board ( not kidding here some people had goku = to angels even after this info was known ), and some people came to the realization he was just in that realm of power with no guarantee he would beat beerus.

[SayianBeyondGod]

thats all everybody has said really tho, that we know beerus questions UI and doesnt know how a fight would go, I mean him putting it as might or hasnt he just implies he is questioning, ergo beerus>=<MUI goku and the difference is negligible, why focus on diffrent wording of the translation that basically means the same thing.

Not really, while I'm not going to call out people, when Herms first posted the scan a lot of people just took what's face value and quickly jumped into the conclusion that this is confirmation that Goku surpassed Beerus. Herm doesn't go into much context of the translators beside claiming they're some element of uncertainty, so what do you mean by different wording of translation as Herm's never translates the statement but gives it his thoughts. When he say "might" he's not implying that's what said in the scan but rather what he thinks.

well theres always people like that, personally I think MUI goku is stronger but the statement never implies an air of certainty, just rather its in the realm of possibility, also I just meant the difference in the way its translated compared to what herms said, as herms never said it as a fact and even stated there was uncertainty, so even tho it wasnt a full translation he gave a round about idea and people did with it how they will, some people went over board ( not kidding here some people had goku = to angels even after this info was known ), and some people came to the realization he was just in that realm of power with no guarantee he would beat beerus.

Well now we have more reason to give Herms more credit with finally more objective clear context of the translation, after all my translator vouched Herms on the fact that Beerus isn't sure. If we count the guy in the twitter comments the translation has been peered checked by three people, which makes it more solid proof there's no objective clear statement that Goku surpassed Beerus. If you want to know what I think subjectively then I can at best say they're in the same realm or rivals, despite MUI I'm sure Beerus with raw power with hakai can overcome it like Jiren has been doing. I don't interpret Ultra Instinct allowing Goku to dodge any attack, considering Whis implies in the F saga that the point of Ultra Instinct is to be off the user's instincts, so it really depends on how fast Goku reactions are with his own instinctive limitations. So it's not like if two people utilize it their reaction will be on pair as it depends on the individual.

[Simere]

Right or wrong, this person you know that you keep referencing isn't a trusted translator until they've had their translations vetted.

Are you telling me the fact he goes into more deeper context than herms did with the kanjis used in the scan, is negligible to credibility. Unless you've got objective reason to dispute the translations I provided then you really don't have any bias to dismiss it. It's like you're committing the genetic fallacy here, in which you attack the source or origin of information, rather than the information itself. No one that speaks Japanese in a high degree has challenged some of Herms translator yet, people are buying it. Despite some of his translations been contradicted by Ken Xyro for example whom turned out to be more correct with spoilers.

Did you miss the part where I said "right or wrong"? The first part? You can't call an unknown entity a "trusted" translator. I said nothing more, and nothing less. They're not trusted by anybody but you; the only one who even knows this person is you. Calling them trusted is a misleading and false attempt to give them credibility they don't have. Right or wrong.

By the way, despite your claim(which had nothing to do with what I said), Herms has been vetted and backed up by other people who speak Japanese; including KenXyro, who you're erroneously implying is better.

[ankokudaishogun]

About Kale, IMHO:

Smaller body, blonde hair: Super Saiyan
Bulky body, blank eyes: basically Super Saiyan Third Grade. Not classified as Super Saiyan because it's berserk?
Bulky body, blank eyes, controlled: basically Super Saiyan Third Grade.
Slightly less bulk body, visible eyes: Super Saiyan 2.

With the exception of the Berserk form not being classified as "Super Saiyan", everything fits.

[Bullza]

But why would he Super Saiyan have blonde hair but then Super Saiyan 2 have green hair? They specifically pointed out that Caulifla, Cabba and Kefla went Super Saiyan 2 but not Kale?

They only said that she took control of her Berserk power. I thought that was why she still had green hair.

[ZombieVito]

apparently toriyama did say at one point that merged zamasu is about as strong as 2 ssb's so him being GoD tier is doubtful, you could say he meant initial but I doubt corrupt gave him that big a boost considering ssb vegito toyed around and only tried as much as jiren has recently, plus spirit bomb sword trunks beat merged zamasu and I doubt he was GoD tier, so more than likely merged zamasu is probably not GoD tier.

Vegetto didn't toy with him at all.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

apparently toriyama did say at one point that merged zamasu is about as strong as 2 ssb's so him being GoD tier is doubtful, you could say he meant initial but I doubt corrupt gave him that big a boost considering ssb vegito toyed around and only tried as much as jiren has recently, plus spirit bomb sword trunks beat merged zamasu and I doubt he was GoD tier, so more than likely merged zamasu is probably not GoD tier.

Vegetto didn't toy with him at all.

Based on what I remember from "Z", the manga, and people's comments, it seems as though SSB Vegito actually had more trouble with Corrupted Merged Zamasu than SS Vegito did with Buuhan because of the immortality and massive strength that Merged Zamasu possessed.

[ankokudaishogun]

But why would he Super Saiyan have blonde hair but then Super Saiyan 2 have green hair?

I should have clarified: a Super Saiyan MUTATION

They specifically pointed out that Caulifla, Cabba and Kefla went Super Saiyan 2 but not Kale?

Different priorities?

They only said that she took control of her Berserk power. I thought that was why she still had green hair.

She also got less bulky, unlike the first time when she was still bulky.

Also, there is the distinct chance of coloring errors

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

The controlled form that Kale used against the Pride troopers isn't SSJ2. That's just a weaker version of her Berserk form.

What likely happened is that Kale controlling her Berserk form in itself granted no boost. She probably just evolved in battle. So she controlled her Berserk form and with the newfound control was able to advance it to it's SSJ2 level hence the massive increase in power noted by Tien.

So Kefla's Super Saiyan is equivalent to Kale's 1st Berserk form but under control. Which is what Kale was using the split second before she was enveloped in energy and after Caulifla's speech.

Kefla's Super Saiyan 2 is the same thing that Kale used after mastering her Berserk power.