"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[GodKaio-Ken]

Last time I get upset about spoilers. They weren't wrong literally but we're contextually misleading.

Also never tell me Jiren is a "good guy" again. He lashed out and tried to destroy innocents because their friendship made him angry? Sounds like a pretty bad thing to do.

At the end of the day even if you preach justice you can still have an evil heart. I'm sure he will "change" in 131 but to me yes he's a villain.

[Simere]

At the end of the day even if you preach justice you can still have an evil heart.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[kn83]

At the end of the day even if you preach justice you can still have an evil heart.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

THIS x1000

[sintzu]

At the end of the day even if you preach justice you can still have an evil heart.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

THIS x1000

Batman is.

[DragonBallFoodie]

At the end of the day even if you preach justice you can still have an evil heart.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Well, justice these days is far too easily an excuse for retribution and purging. That's probably a theme DBS has showcased with Jiren and Zamasu.

[Kataphrut]

Last time I get upset about spoilers. They weren't wrong literally but we're contextually misleading.

This has happened so many times now, it felt like there was a period during the ToP where every other spoiler or knew thing we heard about the next episode would be dreadful and then it turned out fine. I'm glad I got to say this one more time: trust Super. It has this uncanny knack for creating good stuff out of what sounds like a terrible idea on paper (when the spoilers aren't just straight up lying )

[Lionel]

Impressive brawling, agreed there. Toei definitely provided a spectacle for everyone. Can't say I agree with the "power of friendship" trope that was being paraded this episode. Recalling faces and personalities, no matter how emotionally close to you, shouldn't elevate your power like this. Is Toei paying homage to the "hysterical strength" phenomenon? If so then where was this in many of the previous battles in the original manga where Goku found himself outmatched? Why couldn't Staff Officer Black, Piccolo Daimao or Ginyu take advantage of this power in order to handle Goku? They showed enough concern and camaraderie to warrant the boost. I'm guessing it probably didn't exist at the time.

Have to say that I found myself shaking my head when they came around to confirming that #17 was still alive. Of all people... If they don't have the courage to go all of the way with the sacrifice then don't make the gesture in the first place. Jiren knocking him out like Freeza would have been preferred to a misdirectional farce.

[Michsi]

Outside of nakama power,my biggest problem with the drama was:

Takami: But you have to be careful not to let Dragon Ball get too sentimental. You’ve got to protect the world that Toriyama-sensei created. Vegeta adds some good flavoring into the mix.

I'd say it wasn't though. Overly sentimental, I mean. I'd say it's not even close to how DB got when Piccolo died for Gohan (the first time) or Vegeta asking Goku to avenge the saiyans before dying. You can't have them be completely void of emotions or attachments to one another.

[Pannaliciour]

What I understand is Jiren's power is the maximum a person can achieve in his life. Its absolute power/strenght without the hax ability. Jiren doesn't have or need hax. Jiren had a view that we viewers had all along since db dbz: its all about power level!

It was always about power level, but this arc or this episode made it clear otherwise: the introduction of MUI. A ability to stand up against absolute strength. Thats why a GoD can't defeat Jiren because Jiren has a higher battle power than the GoD and without the MUI they are defenceless.

The manga made it clear, Beerus that hasn't perfected UI dodged everything from 11 GoD's at the same time. But Jiren could hit Goku (MUI) a few times. That means Jiren >>> any God of Destruction!

[Vegeta_Sama]

I just noticed that the final three surviving members of U7 were "spoiler"/foreshadowed in the manga promotional poster for the ToP arc. Notice how the closest ones to Goku are Frieza and 17. I always thought it was a weird placement, but now it makes way more sense.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

[Hawk9211]

Outside of nakama power,my biggest problem with the drama was:

Takami: But you have to be careful not to let Dragon Ball get too sentimental. You’ve got to protect the world that Toriyama-sensei created. Vegeta adds some good flavoring into the mix.

I'd say it wasn't though. Overly sentimental, I mean. I'd say it's not even close to how DB got when Piccolo died for Gohan (the first time) or Vegeta asking Goku to avenge the saiyans before dying. You can't have them be completely void of emotions or attachments to one another.

The arc as a whole,yes.I won't go into detail,but I'll say the only one well done was roshi.Otherwise;vegeta and this whole fight starting from when goku achieved UI by thinking about nakama is quite overly sentimental for db especially goku.

DB characters only express such extreme emotions in extreme moments.They don't go spouting speeches about friendship,family etc.Subtle hints,yeah othrrwise no.

One thing that separates goku from other shonen protagonists is that he is a bloodknight.His main motivation is getting stronger.Remember what happened when goku was about to kill freeza?Anger about his friend's death or sadness at killing a strong opponent.

[JazzMazz]

Outside of nakama power,my biggest problem with the drama was:

I'd say it wasn't though. Overly sentimental, I mean. I'd say it's not even close to how DB got when Piccolo died for Gohan (the first time) or Vegeta asking Goku to avenge the saiyans before dying. You can't have them be completely void of emotions or attachments to one another.

The arc as a whole,yes.I won't go into detail,but I'll say the only one well done was roshi.Otherwise;vegeta and this whole fight starting from when goku achieved UI by thinking about nakama is quite overly sentimental for db especially goku.

DB characters only express such extreme emotions in extreme moments.They don't go spouting speeches about friendship,family etc.Subtle hints,yeah othrrwise no.

One thing that separates goku from other shonen protagonists is that he is a bloodknight.His main motivation is getting stronger.Remember what happened when goku was about to kill freeza?Anger about his friend's death or sadness at killing a strong opponent.

I think that's the transformation that they have tried to show Goku go through in this arc. Instead of fighting for purely selfish reasons, like becoming stronger, Goku learns kind of to give up those selfish motivations and gain strength from the trust that others have in him.

I'm not necessarily endorsing this character arc, its just something I noticed.

[SaiyanSoul]

Last time I get upset about spoilers. They weren't wrong literally but we're contextually misleading.

Also never tell me Jiren is a "good guy" again. He lashed out and tried to destroy innocents because their friendship made him angry? Sounds like a pretty bad thing to do.

At the end of the day even if you preach justice you can still have an evil heart. I'm sure he will "change" in 131 but to me yes he's a villain.

Jiren isn't a bad guy he's just super conflicted. He tried to kill the Z fighters to show Goku just how easy it is for him to lose his source of strength, and proving to him that his way of life is the only way.

[STH]

Last time I get upset about spoilers. They weren't wrong literally but we're contextually misleading.

Also never tell me Jiren is a "good guy" again. He lashed out and tried to destroy innocents because their friendship made him angry? Sounds like a pretty bad thing to do.

At the end of the day even if you preach justice you can still have an evil heart. I'm sure he will "change" in 131 but to me yes he's a villain.

Jiren isn't a bad guy he's just super conflicted. He tried to kill the Z fighters to show Goku just how easy it is for him to lose his source of strength, and proving to him that his way of life is the only way.

Yep, I agree with you.

[Lionel]

In a way, Jiren is right, though. There's only so far that this adrenal "hysterical strength" outburst will get you without the necessary baseline of power to be amplified. If the concept of emotional protectionism by itself were enough to fight someone like Jiren then Goku wouldn't have been necessary in the first place. Krillin could have thought about his daughter, his wife, and his mentor to give him the stimulation he needs to go to town at flattening the Pride Trooper into the dirt. We didn't see that happen, though, did we? The show doesn't bother to relay to the viewer that at least some of Jiren's philosophy is needed for this idealism to pan out -- because goodness knows they're not going to have him get taken down in any other way except through sheer overwhelming might. It wouldn't help the ideologically binary moral of the story now would it?

[Michsi]

Outside of nakama power,my biggest problem with the drama was:

I'd say it wasn't though. Overly sentimental, I mean. I'd say it's not even close to how DB got when Piccolo died for Gohan (the first time) or Vegeta asking Goku to avenge the saiyans before dying. You can't have them be completely void of emotions or attachments to one another.

The arc as a whole,yes.I won't go into detail,but I'll say the only one well done was roshi.Otherwise;vegeta and this whole fight starting from when goku achieved UI by thinking about nakama is quite overly sentimental for db especially goku.

DB characters only express such extreme emotions in extreme moments.They don't go spouting speeches about friendship,family etc.Subtle hints,yeah othrrwise no.

One thing that separates goku from other shonen protagonists is that he is a bloodknight.His main motivation is getting stronger.Remember what happened when goku was about to kill freeza?Anger about his friend's death or sadness at killing a strong opponent.

But wouldn't you say that the imminent erasure of his universe and the death of everyone he's ever met and cared about is one of those extreme moments? And I'd say the only reason he even started spouting anything about bonds is because he is facing an opponent that is specifically against these things and openly mocks them. I think Jiren's character and his views on friendship were deliberately designed for the purpose of inserting some emotion driven response from Goku. One of the most common criticism for DBS is that Goku seems way too detached, that he doesn't take anything serious. It feels like the writers wanted to have at least one moment were they make it clear that Goku does indeed care about his friends and family, even if it takes such extreme circumstances to make that apparent.

Goku isn't a bloodknight. Zaraki Kenpachi is a boodknight. Goku is childish and reckless and sometimes downright selfish, but I think people take these traits just a bit too far.
With Freeza, he loudly proclaims that he has no right to beg for his life because of all the innocent lives he has destroyed. By the end, he had lost all interest of a rematch with Freeza and chose to give him energy out of mercy. Why he showed sadness? Because he had to kill him in the end. Goku isn't a heartless battle beast. (Neither is Kenpachi in the end, but they are worlds appart when it comes to their personality)

[HeroR]

This whole on-going ‘bad writing’ accusation malarkey got extremely boring a long time ago.

You not liking it does not qualify for it to be bad writing. It’s beyond me as to why someone would call it ‘bad writing’ week after week and still continue to watch it - especially if it’s just to have something to moan about.

When it comes down to it, I will trust the actual writers of a show over a salty fan.

There are many things in Super that are badly written and should be called out. At the same time, 'bad writing' has been dumbed down to 'things I don't like' and in course lost all meaning. To me for example, bad writing is Botamo's power being rewritten so Gohan could knock him out in 103 with the Kamehameha and 106 and 119 are literally with bad writing.

[JazzMazz]

This whole on-going ‘bad writing’ accusation malarkey got extremely boring a long time ago.

You not liking it does not qualify for it to be bad writing. It’s beyond me as to why someone would call it ‘bad writing’ week after week and still continue to watch it - especially if it’s just to have something to moan about.

When it comes down to it, I will trust the actual writers of a show over a salty fan.

There are many things in Super that are badly written and should be called out. At the same time, 'bad writing' has been dumbed down to 'things I don't like' and in course lost all meaning. To me for example, bad writing is Botamo's power being rewritten so Gohan could knock him out in 103 with the Kamehameha and 106 and 119 are literally with bad writing.

TBH, I think bad execution of idea's is far more egregious is worse than purely bad writing, because at the very least bad writing with an interesting execution can at least be engaging, something that is badly executed will never fail to disappoint.

As for something like 106, I think it was far better in theory than in execution. The idea's around our characters working together to figure out and overcome their opponent that has been set upon them is a very good one, however, the execution really does leave a lot to be desired, especially in the second half, when the conflict was actually resolved.

119 is just badly written and badly executed, even though it has a decent base idea.

[HeroR]

I'd say it wasn't though. Overly sentimental, I mean. I'd say it's not even close to how DB got when Piccolo died for Gohan (the first time) or Vegeta asking Goku to avenge the saiyans before dying. You can't have them be completely void of emotions or attachments to one another.

The arc as a whole,yes.I won't go into detail,but I'll say the only one well done was roshi.Otherwise;vegeta and this whole fight starting from when goku achieved UI by thinking about nakama is quite overly sentimental for db especially goku.

DB characters only express such extreme emotions in extreme moments.They don't go spouting speeches about friendship,family etc.Subtle hints,yeah othrrwise no.

One thing that separates goku from other shonen protagonists is that he is a bloodknight.His main motivation is getting stronger.Remember what happened when goku was about to kill freeza?Anger about his friend's death or sadness at killing a strong opponent.

I think that's the transformation that they have tried to show Goku go through in this arc. Instead of fighting for purely selfish reasons, like becoming stronger, Goku learns kind of to give up those selfish motivations and gain strength from the trust that others have in him.

I'm not necessarily endorsing this character arc, its just something I noticed.

I thought the speech was more about the Z-Fighters than Goku. Goku's part was that although he can be a selfish meathead, he isn't under the delusion that he's a self-made man and he only got so far because he had to trust people and learn from them.

[HeroR]

I'd say it wasn't though. Overly sentimental, I mean. I'd say it's not even close to how DB got when Piccolo died for Gohan (the first time) or Vegeta asking Goku to avenge the saiyans before dying. You can't have them be completely void of emotions or attachments to one another.

The arc as a whole,yes.I won't go into detail,but I'll say the only one well done was roshi.Otherwise;vegeta and this whole fight starting from when goku achieved UI by thinking about nakama is quite overly sentimental for db especially goku.

DB characters only express such extreme emotions in extreme moments.They don't go spouting speeches about friendship,family etc.Subtle hints,yeah othrrwise no.

One thing that separates goku from other shonen protagonists is that he is a bloodknight.His main motivation is getting stronger.Remember what happened when goku was about to kill freeza?Anger about his friend's death or sadness at killing a strong opponent.

But wouldn't you say that the imminent erasure of his universe and the death of everyone he's ever met and cared about is one of those extreme moments? And I'd say the only reason he even started spouting anything about bonds is because he is facing an opponent that is specifically against these things and openly mocks them. I think Jiren's character and his views on friendship were deliberately designed for the purpose of inserting some emotion driven response from Goku. One of the most common criticism for DBS is that Goku seems way too detached, that he doesn't take anything serious. It feels like the writers wanted to have at least one moment were they make it clear that Goku does indeed care about his friends and family, even if it takes such extreme circumstances to make that apparent.

Goku isn't a bloodknight. Zaraki Kenpachi is a boodknight. Goku is childish and reckless and sometimes downright selfish, but I think people take these traits just a bit too far.
With Freeza, he loudly proclaims that he has no right to beg for his life because of all the innocent lives he has destroyed. By the end, he had lost all interest of a rematch with Freeza and chose to give him energy out of mercy. Why he showed sadness? Because he had to kill him in the end. Goku isn't a heartless battle beast. (Neither is Kenpachi in the end, but they are worlds appart when it comes to their personality)

You mean if you missed the Future Trunks Saga?

This whole on-going ‘bad writing’ accusation malarkey got extremely boring a long time ago.

You not liking it does not qualify for it to be bad writing. It’s beyond me as to why someone would call it ‘bad writing’ week after week and still continue to watch it - especially if it’s just to have something to moan about.

When it comes down to it, I will trust the actual writers of a show over a salty fan.

There are many things in Super that are badly written and should be called out. At the same time, 'bad writing' has been dumbed down to 'things I don't like' and in course lost all meaning. To me for example, bad writing is Botamo's power being rewritten so Gohan could knock him out in 103 with the Kamehameha and 106 and 119 are literally with bad writing.

TBH, I think bad execution of idea's is far more egregious is worse than purely bad writing, because at the very least bad writing with an interesting execution can at least be engaging, something that is badly executed will never fail to disappoint.

As for something like 106, I think it was far better in theory than in execution. The idea's around our characters working together to figure out and overcome their opponent that has been set upon them is a very good one, however, the execution really does leave a lot to be desired, especially in the second half, when the conflict was actually resolved.

119 is just badly written and badly executed, even though it has a decent base idea.

At least to me, bad writing and bad execution tend to go hand-and-hand with very few exceptions.

One of the few exceptions I can think of is Gohan going Super Saiyan 2. It's executed extremely well and does have a strong emotional impact. Overall, brilliant work by Toriyama. However, when you actually sit down and breakdown the scene, it really doesn't make any sense. Gohan is suddenly 'I don't want to kill you' to Cell when he was read to murdered Cell when he thought he killed Piccolo and he had no problem trying to murder Freeza on Namek. And the fact that Gohan final breaking point wasn't seeing his friends and family get tortured, but seeing a robot he barely knew die is really eye-rolling. Not helped that 16 supposedly left a big impact on Gohan, yet he never considered using the second wish to Shenron to revive him. 16 is literally never mentioned again after he died.

106 was a good and interesting premise done in by messy writer. Like more universe should have been effected by the sniper, throwing rocks was considered a good idea, Gohan was more boneheaded than usual, and Tien's 'cool moment' was flat. 119 was just an overall mess and really needed to be two episodes, or an episode or a half. It coming on the heel of 118 which was a great written episode with a lot of emotional impact didn't help.