Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

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Simere
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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Simere » Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:36 am

It's not fair, it's generous. Fair would be a sentence or two stated several episodes ago, and another sentence or two after the fight is over. Fair is not taking up half of the climatic fight to drill into the audience's mind that Goku is powerful because of his friends and Jiren isn't, so that's why Jiren is losing — only he doesn't lose, so....

Why so much focus? Why? It's 90% one thing, 10% something else, except the 10% is made to seem greater than the 90%. That's where the false impression comes from.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Michsi » Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:47 am

Simere wrote:It's not fair, it's generous. Fair would be a sentence or two stated several episodes ago, and another sentence or two after the fight is over. Fair is not taking up half of the climatic fight to drill into the audience's mind that Goku is powerful because of his friends and Jiren isn't, so that's why Jiren is losing — only he doesn't lose, so....

Why so much focus? Why? It's 90% one thing, 10% something else, except the 10% is made to seem greater than the 90%. That's where the false impression comes from.

Because it's the climax of the fight against an opponent that represents the exact opposite. I genuinely believe that Goku's relationship with the others deserves more than a sentence or two.

And by fair I just meant Goku admitting it. He himself hasn't said much about it.

Edit: for the record, I get why people might be unhappy with the execution. Maybe a bit on the cheesy side. But I don't get this displeasure at the notion of focusing on camaraderie at all.
Last edited by Michsi on Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:57 am

To me at least, that whole sequence was more like that moment in Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods where Goku reverted from SSG to base to SS to SSG again.

He was being pushed by a mighty foe, and eventually found the resolve to gain immense resolve and gain greater focus in his movements and strikes. Afterwards, he gets a massive moment of resolve later on when danger seems imminent for his friends.

This is how I felt, though there are some differences; mainly, how Jiren's own philosophy is the battle being waged against.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Simere » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:43 pm

The main difference between BoG and this is the emphasis. They didn't go on and on about it in BoG, and they didn't make it out to be the reason Goku is fighting. The fight ended right after that, even.

Speaking of BoG, I liked how the retelling did it better: still had the moment where Goku has a nakama resolve moment, but the fight ended on a more personal theme for Goku's character. Nakama is the wrong focus for Goku against Jiren because he's not Jiren's exact opposite in that regard. Gohan would have been a better character to have in the lead role if they wanted to make that contrast. Though, don't get me wrong, I'd rather have Goku in a role he's not the most suited for than that.

If the next episode has another writing shift where they forget the theme they're pushing, I hope it lands back on the stronger elements of Goku's character.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Asura » Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:52 am

Simere wrote:Nakama is the wrong focus for Goku against Jiren because he's not Jiren's exact opposite in that regard.
I disagree. Goku has a way of impacting the people around him, and those people impact him as well. Like Roshi (or was it Krillin?) was saying, most of the people on that bench (in fact, literally everyone except Roshi and Gohan) were once Goku's enemies/rivals. Everyone has always relied on Goku, they've always put their faith in him whenever the world was in danger because they have trust in him. Jiren is the complete opposite in this regard, he's surrounded himself in loneliness and built his strength off of that. Goku surrounded himself with his friends, ever since he met Bulma in the very first episode, and he's always fought for his friends when they needed him. Roshi said that even Goku knows he wouldn't have made it this far by himself, and I think that's very true.

Hell, how many times did Goku get saved by his friends in this tournament alone? I know 17 and 18 saved his ass quite a number of times. Goku wouldn't have made it this far without the help of his team.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Simere » Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:39 am

Asura wrote:
Simere wrote:Nakama is the wrong focus for Goku against Jiren because he's not Jiren's exact opposite in that regard.
I disagree. Goku has a way of impacting the people around him, and those people impact him as well. Like Roshi (or was it Krillin?) was saying, most of the people on that bench (in fact, literally everyone except Roshi and Gohan) were once Goku's enemies/rivals. Everyone has always relied on Goku, they've always put their faith in him whenever the world was in danger because they have trust in him. Jiren is the complete opposite in this regard, he's surrounded himself in loneliness and built his strength off of that. Goku surrounded himself with his friends, ever since he met Bulma in the very first episode, and he's always fought for his friends when they needed him. Roshi said that even Goku knows he wouldn't have made it this far by himself, and I think that's very true.

Hell, how many times did Goku get saved by his friends in this tournament alone? I know 17 and 18 saved his ass quite a number of times. Goku wouldn't have made it this far without the help of his team.
I need to make clear again that I'm not here arguing that Goku only has him and himself to thank for his progress, or that Goku's never had protective feelings towards his friends. Even though everything you said is true, it's not the main explanation for why Goku can keep standing — can keep going forward. Not in the same way someone like Gohan relies on it.

The suggestion that it is—and I think not mentioning anything else for the entire episode is at least a suggestion—undermines what makes Goku unique. Almost any member of team U7 could have been out there saying those same words; Vegeta just was, in fact. Only Goku could have been out there changing the nature of the fight by distilling it to its essence, which is what he did last episode. That's even what part of the spiel was about:

"Even when fighting, he has a way of drawing in those around him."

And that way stems from the purity with which he fights, which I don't feel was on display this episode.

Basically, I'm saying this speech about Goku's character was better:

"At first, I thought it was because you had something to protect — that having a strong mind towards defending something gave rise to some mysterious power...That certainly may be true, but if that were it, then it would have been the same for me, now. But, Kakarrot, you were different. You don't fight in order to win, you fight in order to be certain you do not lose, and in order to keep reaching your limits."

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Goku1000 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:32 pm

I cant Lie, that was probably the best action packed fighting episode I have seen since this tournament.
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I HIGHLY RECOMMEND --> Dragonballstar.com

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by PsionicWarrior » Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:03 pm

I want to ask to the people who didn't like the episode, especially so the people who actually don't have much issues with Super, what the hell did you expect?
The whole arc is so flawed even that episode being that great cannot save the arc, but at least we can hope for a great ending.
But seriously, this is one heck of an awesome episode and I can't understand how any Dragon Ball fan could get bored while watching it.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Android350 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:46 pm

I truly hope 17 will send Jiren flying off the stage.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Doctor. » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:11 pm

PsionicWarrior wrote:But seriously, this is one heck of an awesome episode and I can't understand how any Dragon Ball fan could get bored while watching it.
There's a difference between something being entertaining and something being good, they can coexist; 'so bad, it's good' movies exist for a reason. I certainly was being entertained. I had the great animation to thank for that. Doesn't mean I wasn't annoyed every time someone opened their mouth to say some of the stupidest things I've ever heard someone say in this series.

Why we have to pretend that good writing and good animation are mutually exclusive is beyond me and I certainly can't comprehend how someone would actively defend the current state of affairs whilst acknowledging that the series has terrible writing.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by PsionicWarrior » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:20 pm

Doctor. wrote:Why we have to pretend that good writing and good animation are mutually exclusive is beyond me and I certainly can't comprehend how someone would actively defend the current state of affairs whilst acknowledging that the series has terrible writing.
I didn't find the writing that bad, yes for Super. I didn't say one has to ignore rest if animation is good, I just say TOP has few episodes that gave me genuine DB chills, and that was one of them. So why bring up the show's recurrent faults when talking about an episode that was higher than its usual standards? I truly think the only real issue of that episode is that it suffers from previous episodes. To be perfectly honest, I had a rather negative bias before launching the EP, I expected it to be MUCH worse than that. So I was pleasantly surprised and enjoyed the ride, I didn't find anything from the episode particularly infuriating like we already had seen in this series.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by kemuri07 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:34 pm

I didn't find the episode boring, it was really 17's reveal the thing that pissed me off. The fight itself was fine. It was well-animated, there were some cool moments.


The enjoyment I get from Super (when I can get it) comes from the most shallow places. It's a dumb anime in which shit blows up from time to time. I"m not going to kid myself into thinking that Super is "good." It's trashy--a show that's incredibly flawed, but you find enjoyment in it anyways because it triggers something in your lizard brain.


And yeah, I absolutely think DBZ is certainly more than just "show in which guys yell at each for 30 min," no matter what the internet tries to tell you. And that's because DBZ "earns" those moments because Akira Toriyama was at the heights of his storytelling prowess: there's a reason why those moments are iconic; there's a reason why characters like Vegeta and Krillin are known universally. It didn't happen on accident. Yes, DBZ is a genuinely great anime. You'd think on a DB fansite, that'd be obvious. The amount of times where posters throw the show under the bus to justify Super's bullshit--it's kind of mind numbing.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by PsionicWarrior » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:00 pm

kemuri07 wrote:I absolutely think DBZ is certainly more than just "show in which guys yell at each for 30 min," no matter what the internet tries to tell you.
I don't read all threads here but I didn't get the impression people are thinking that tbh lol

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by 14m110yd » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:22 pm

This was the greatest fight in dragonball history in my opinion. With the animation and goku fighting for his friends and continues to push past his limits. It was epic ! Can't wait for this final episode and the apparent surprise at the end of It.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by foxfang4 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:48 pm

Guys, this is the most important episode in the history of Dragon Ball. Honestly, I've been around the internet and the reaction has been overwhelmingly positive. I'm talking twitter, forums, youtube reviews, reactions, talking to people in the street. The kids at the school I teach have lost their minds over the series. (I've screened it for my Grade 4 to 8s around 6 times this week on my projector :lol:). This episode has been an absolute success in so many ways. It has done more to create a new generation of Dragon Ball fans than almost anything prior to it, and has cemented the fan-base of people who already love it. It's truly been amazing on a worldwide level how much people adore Episode 130. It's a masterpiece.

PS. I've found this thread to be a bit perplexing TBH. With 4-5 people taking over it, and seemingly making the episode seem like a failure. It reminds of the overwhelming praise the movie "The Dark Knight" received, but I remember people on forums furious that Batman's raspy voice "ruined" the movie. I respect all views. But it's undeniable this episode is a massive success for the series going forward.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by jeffbr92 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:21 pm

Android350 wrote:I truly hope 17 will send Jiren flying off the stage.
I hope Jiren to be eliminated as well but due tearing up 17 apart.
Power levels are not just big numbers:

by Doctor.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Sonofman » Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:39 pm

It's a pretty good episode. The best one by far, if not the entire arc. Toei kinda had to make it good for the upcoming DBS movie. I'm glad that they will be stopping the series. They need a good long break!! Make some video games and movies! The anime needs some re-budgeting and new story ideas!
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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Champa The Destroyer » Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:48 am

This episode was fantastic, and I was shocked that 17 is still alive. Hopefully 131 will be a great episode that provides a satisfying conclusion to Dragon Ball Super.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by foxfang4 » Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:53 am

This episode felt like a gift to Dragon Ball fans. I can't believe we were given something of such quality. To think that a series asleep for 18 years can still this good.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Mister_Popo » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:36 am

All the episode was just a piece of art, it really was. Even episodes 109-110, who looked already pretty amazing, became rather moderate compared to this one.

You can maybe criticize TOEI for his re-use of animation during this arc and bad animation during previous arcs. But if they are willing to put in the budget and effort, they are there along the stars with the other top studios like Madhouse, Bonus ... and maybe able to surpass them too. They've got some of the best animators of the world in their staff.

After rewatching the episode: the non-fighting scenes were pretty dope too. Despite Jiren almost villainous move to kill his friends, the mutual respect between the two opponents was clear. First Jiren stated 'he didn't want it to end like this and Goku will always stay in his memories'. When MUI Goku had defeated Jiren and was about to eliminate him, Jiren closed his eyes (meditating face), he had accepted his defeat and respected Goku for being stronger, not like the typical Dragonball-antogonist who keeps yelling and getting more hysterical, not accepting defeat till the very end.

I think at the end Jiren is going to acknowledge the power of fiendship and trust, and by doing so, becoming Goku's ally for future battles to come.

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