I think Toriyama's time is over with the Dragonball series

[Vegeta_Sama]

kn83 vs Doctor is as entertaining as Goku vs. Jiren.
*eats popcorns*

[kn83]

The entire point is that those moments didn't involve rage boosts BECAUSE the original series isn't stupid enough to give characters rage boosts.

You said those those characters got rage boost in those scenes and still lost. So I the original series WAS stupid enough to give them rage boost after all .

Goku didn't get a rage boost against Freeza, he was winning already before he got mad at Freeza's words.

No he wasn't, you are in denial. Frieza was winning after he went 100%, with Goku only turning it around after the speech. Stop deluding yourself.

Goku said it himself that if you hurt my friends that makes him mad. It was only in the moment when Jiren tries killing Goku's group with the blast is when he gets the power boost. So no, it was clearly not a friendship boost. It was an anger boost, consistent with the rest of the franchise. The whole U7 team believed in each other yet nobody ever got a power boost because of that. Its clear you just being whiny at this point.

And you're just purposefully ignoring what happened in the episode. Halfway point, Jiren blasts Goku, Goku's on the ground, Kuririn motivates Goku to get up, Goku gets up with Jiren dumbfounded at how he can still stand, Goku attacks Jiren, Khai says Goku is faster and stronger now, Piccolo proceeds to explain that it's because he's fighting on behalf of everyone and everyone believes in him. Cue friendship speech.

It was a friendship boost and I don't understand why you're trying so hard to refute it.

Goku was stronger than Jiren even before the scene in question, and Goku himself was not the one who made the friendship speech in the first place. So what are you bitching about?

No, what I claimed was that the power boost he got due to emotion WHILST in UI was completely arbitrary. Please do read what I'm saying more carefully.

If Goku got a power boost for reason already covered throughout the series, then how is it arbitrary.

Kid Goku was at a disadvantage against full powered King Piccolo. Then while he is on the ground, kid Goku starts to think about Krillin's death, gets mad then pulls out the super monkey fist that kills King Piccolo.

After Freeza goes 100%, he starts winning against SSJ Goku and puts him in the dirt. Later, after SSJ Goku gets up, makes a speech about him killing Krillin, gets angry, powers up and starts winning against Freeza

That's anime filler.

And Freeza wasn't winning. Goku was getting most of the shots in. At most you could say they were even. And it wasn't a speech. Freeza says he killed Kuririn and Goku gets mad, that's it, he made no speech. Right after that, it cuts to Kaio talking to the Grand Elder, so you can't even claim that Goku's rage correlates to his apparent better performance later in the fight. Oh, and the very NEXT hit we see from either Goku or Freeza after Goku's "speech" is Freeza elbowing Goku in the face, so it's very clear Goku didn't get any kind of "boost".

Bullshit. Freeza was clearly winning until he puts Goku into the ground and loses his shirt. When Goku gets out of the rumble, Freeza brags about killing Krillin, which pisses Goku off then he makes his speech, he starts yelling "His name was Krillin!!", then begins to win against Freeza.

You seem very desperate to throw the original series under the bus to defend the abhorrent writing in Super. I'm not exactly sure how you're even here if you hate the original series this much.

Nobody is throwing Z under a bus, I'm just pointing out the hilarious double standards of nostalgia-tards like yourself. You keep denying being a nostalgia-tard yet repeat every single fallacy they make lmao.

The point is that Majin Vegeta's conflict is unique to Dragon Ball and has its own identity. It's not something that you can pluck out of the scene and apply it to literally every other Shounen ever. That's what I mean when I say it's far more nuanced and subtle than #130. Vocalizing the fact that Goku cares about his friends is completely dissonant with the way the original series was written, which is why you are very hard-pressed right now to find an example of an actual friendship speech/power-up in the original series.

Vegeta's conflict being unique (appeal to novelty fallacy) says nothing about it having any subtlety or naunced, because objectively there isn't any. Vegeta vocalized his angst over Goku in Z far more blatantly than the cast vocalizing their friendship in ep.130

I don't have much of a problem with Goku's rage scene in #130. I have a problem with the friendship speeches that preceded it (which were entirely different, much more melodramatic and kitsch than Goku simply saying he won't forgive Jiren for what he did), the fact that he got a rage boost from Jiren attacking his friends and the fact that him being overwhelmed by emotion contradicts the concept of UI established just in the episode prior.

I'm not being cowardly. I'm still addressing your "points." I'm just reporting you for breaking the rules.

Earier in this thread you were bitching about the power-boost Goku got after Jiren attacked the stands, now you wanna admit it made sense? I already won this debate . You can't even keep your complains consistent

UI is the ability to move without any kind of thought or (sub)consciousness. It was never said to be an emotionless state, as the angel themselves have UI naturally 24/7 and they are full of emotion.

And what rule have I broken? I've never heard of a rule against refuting anyone on this forum.

[Cure Dragon 255]

You are not giving this...ahem...GEM...of an exchange enough praise! Goku Vs Freeza? Cell Vs Gohan? Pssht!

Doctor VS kn83! The real deal. Accept NO Substitutes!

[Doctor.]

You said those those characters got rage boost in those scenes and still lost. So I the original series WAS stupid enough to give them rage boost after all .

Any other time a Saiyan was overwhelmed by emotion in the original series and tried attacking the villain, they got their asses kicked

I didn't mention a power boost.

No he wasn't, you are in denial. Frieza was winning after he went 100%, with Goku only turning it around after the speech. Stop deluding yourself.

You're not presenting any proof.

Here, this is the first confrontation the two had after Goku's so-called "rage boost":

[spoiler][/spoiler]

How did Goku get any stronger if the first thing that happens is him getting elbowed in the face?

Even if we assume Freeza was indeed winning once he turned 100%, the series itself already presents you with an explanation as to why he lost: Freeza was losing power. Goku didn't get stronger, Freeza got weaker. Saying Goku got stronger is merely conjecture on your part, as opposed to DBS #130 where the characters literally state Goku got stronger as a result of his friends cheering him on.

Goku said it himself that if you hurt my friends that makes him mad. It was only in the moment when Jiren tries killing Goku's group with the blast is when he gets the power boost. So no, it was clearly not a friendship boost. It was an anger boost, consistent with the rest of the franchise. The whole U7 team believed in each other yet nobody ever got a power boost because of that. Its clear you just being whiny at this point.

You are literally ignoring half of the episode. I am not talking about Goku getting mad after Jiren tries killing his friends. I'm talking about the moment that came before that. You're arguing against facts at this point. Piccolo literally tells you in your face that Goku got stronger because of his friends' hope.

Goku was stronger than Jiren even before the scene in question, and Goku himself was not the one who made the friendship speech in the first place. So what are you bitching about?

Jiren knocked Goku the fuck out, how was Goku stronger?

I am "bitching" about the execution of the scene, the melodrama, the kitsch and over-the-top verbalization of very clear subtext that contradicts how Dragon Ball has always been written and UI's concept as a whole. My argument was never about Goku being out-of-character so I'm not exactly sure what you're arguing against. At this point, I think you're just projecting strawmans onto me and arguing against them without actually addressing what I'm saying.

If Goku got a power boost for reason already covered throughout the series, then how is it arbitrary.

Because, as I've argued, rage was never a reason for Goku to get a power boost mid-transformation in the original series.

Nobody is throwing Z under a bus, I'm just pointing out the hilarious double standards of nostalgia-tards like yourself. You keep denying being a nostalgia-tard yet repeat every single fallacy they make lmao.

I'm not sure you know what a fallacy is.

Vegeta's conflict being unique (appeal to novelty fallacy) says nothing about it having any subtlety or naunced, because objectively there isn't any. Vegeta vocalized his angst over Goku in Z far more blatantly than the cast vocalizing their friendship in ep.130

Yes, and? Do you even know what I'm arguing for?

Earier in this thread you were bitching about the power-boost Goku got after Jiren attacked the stands, now you wanna admit it made sense? I already won this debate . You can't even keep your complains consistent

the fact that he got a rage boost from Jiren attacking his friends

Yeah, no, I'm still complaining about it even in the post you're replying to. I'm not sure if you can tell subtle distinctions apart, but what I claimed made sense was Goku's characterization (taken in isolation) in that specific scene, not the fact that he gets a power boost from being mad.

UI is the ability to move without any kind of thought or (sub)consciousness. It was never said to be an emotionless state, as the angel themselves have UI naturally 24/7 and they are full of emotion.

Goku being concerned with outside factors and being overwhelmed by emotion literally contradicts what was stated in the previous episode.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

You can easily infer from this that outside influence is irrelevant to Ultra Instinct and it's actually a burden.

And what rule have I broken? I've never heard of a rule against refuting anyone on this forum.

Rule 4.

Be respectful of your peers. While maintained exclusively in English, this is truly a global community with fans from all walks of life. Your opinions must be expressed with civility. Rudeness (including slanderous words) and personal attacks against members — of this community or otherwise — will not be tolerated. That being said, be realistic and pay attention to what is actually being discussed and argued; realize that when inanimate objects and productions are being criticized, it is not a personal attack on you, and “playing the victim” will not be tolerated. Additionally, it must be recognized that fans can and will be familiar with all sorts of different versions (or “re-versionings”, if you will) of the franchise. However, emphasis will be placed on the original Japanese version, as it is the single “global” version that can be enjoyed by all, and is the primary focus of Kanzenshuu as a whole. Furthermore, certain regional-specific spellings and quirks may automatically be adjusted by the forum to reflect this global perspective.

[Miracles]

If the Dragonball series will come back than without Akira and my mind says Toyotarō will do his stuff completely...

It does not mean that he will do nothing anymore but maybe only Dragonball movies in future..

No. TOEI even stated they feel Toriyama is planning more stories for the series later.

[kn83]

I didn't mention a power boost.

Yes you did, don't try to back track.

Here, this is the first confrontation the two had after Goku's so-called "rage boost":

[spoiler][/spoiler]

How did Goku get any stronger if the first thing that happens is him getting elbowed in the face?

Even if we assume Freeza was indeed winning once he turned 100%, the series itself already presents you with an explanation as to why he lost: Freeza was losing power. Goku didn't get stronger, Freeza got weaker. Saying Goku got stronger is merely conjecture on your part, as opposed to DBS #130 where the characters literally state Goku got stronger as a result of his friends cheering him on.

Here's Goku's speech about Krillin
http://www6.mangafreak.net/Read1_Dragon_Ball_321_4

Here's 100% Freeza owning Goku, putting him in the dirt
http://www6.mangafreak.net/Read1_Dragon_Ball_323_5

Here's Goku after getting back up, getting a rage boost mid-battle with a speech about Krillin, then going on to win the fight.
http://www6.mangafreak.net/Read1_Dragon_Ball_323_12

You were saying?

I am "bitching" about the execution of the scene, the melodrama, the kitsch and over-the-top verbalization of very clear subtext that contradicts how Dragon Ball has always been written and UI's concept as a whole. My argument was never about Goku being out-of-character so I'm not exactly sure what you're arguing against. At this point, I think you're just projecting strawmans onto me and arguing against them without actually addressing what I'm saying.

Even though I just posted scenes from the original manga that do the same, you wanna lie and say the fight with Jiren contradicts how DB has always been written? Someone is in denial here, and it ain't me lol.

Because, as I've argued, rage was never a reason for Goku to get a power boost mid-transformation in the original series.

Debunked above

I'm not sure you know what a fallacy is.

Fallacy is: 1. a deceptive, misleading, or false notion, belief, etc.:
2. a misleading or unsound argument.
3. deceptive, misleading, or false nature; erroneousness.
4. Logic. any of various types of erroneous reasoning that render arguments logically unsound.

You are clearly guilty of all 4.

Vegeta's conflict being unique (appeal to novelty fallacy) says nothing about it having any subtlety or naunced, because objectively there isn't any. Vegeta vocalized his angst over Goku in Z far more blatantly than the cast vocalizing their friendship in ep.130

Yes, and? Do you even know what I'm arguing for?

You were arguing that Vegeta's conflict was more unique and subtle than it actually is lol.

Earier in this thread you were bitching about the power-boost Goku got after Jiren attacked the stands, now you wanna admit it made sense? I already won this debate . You can't even keep your complains consistent

the fact that he got a rage boost from Jiren attacking his friends

Yeah, no, I'm still complaining about it even in the post you're replying to. I'm not sure if you can tell subtle distinctions apart, but what I claimed made sense was Goku's characterization (taken in isolation) in that specific scene, not the fact that he gets a power boost from being mad.

[/quote]

Once again you are contradicting yourself. Earlier you were defending the original SSJ transformation as raged-based power boost (instead of a friendship one), now you wanna dismiss the entire concept of raged-based power boost? Make up your mind

Goku being concerned with outside factors and being overwhelmed by emotion literally contradicts what was stated in the previous episode.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

You can easily infer from this that outside influence is irrelevant to Ultra Instinct and it's actually a burden.

The dialogue you posted clearly states that Goku's mind is only on the fight and Jiren. It never said it was a state of zero emotions, so Goku being enraged at Jiren do to the fight itself doesn't contradict anything in the episode. It never said that any outside factors where affecting Goku.

[Doctor.]

Jesus, it's like this guy came straight out of the Youtube comment section.

[GamerSkull]

I might get raged at for this but I honestly think Toriyama has become a lot like the George Lucas of Dragon Ball...

I think he needs to leave it in more capable hands and the notion that Toriyama's involvement adds more value to the product needs to be dropped by certain parts of this fandom.

[lancerman]

As to the claim that Dragon Ball can't be good without Toriyama, I'd just like to point people towards the Bardock special.

Doesn't have a single main character in it unless you count Freeza who at that point was the antagonist for that specific arc and was deeply different in tone from the rest of the series to the point where it literally only could have worked by being set in that time.

That doesn't give me any confidence that someone could do Dragon Ball in Toriyama's style and feel without him. GT was the attempt at that and it feels like glorified fan fiction that someone on the internet would right in comparison to Super which actually feels like Toriyama had something to do with it and a more natural extension of the characters.

[lancerman]

I might get raged at for this but I honestly think Toriyama has become a lot like the George Lucas of Dragon Ball...

I think he needs to leave it in more capable hands and the notion that Toriyama's involvement adds more value to the product needs to be dropped by certain parts of this fandom.

The difference between Toriyama and Lucas is that Lucas made two great films and they were largely a result of him having more constraints and having checks and balances on the franchise, when Lucas was left without people to filter his vision it went off the rails and exposed that he's a good idea man, but not good at the technical aspects of crafting a story. Toriyama was largely always winging Dragon Ball and it shows. The only cohesive arcs are really the Saiyan arc and Freeza arc. Aside from that the only connections between the story were the 22nd tournament ending on the cliffhanger of Kuriren's death, Piccolo and Kami saying a few things in an alien language, and namedropping the Red Ribbon army in the Android Arc. Super has largely been more interconnected from arc to arc than the rest of the series.

[Doctor.]

Doesn't have a single main character in it unless you count Freeza who at that point was the antagonist for that specific arc and was deeply different in tone from the rest of the series to the point where it literally only could have worked by being set in that time.

Then don't continue Dragon Ball with the same characters and set in the same time.

[lancerman]

Doesn't have a single main character in it unless you count Freeza who at that point was the antagonist for that specific arc and was deeply different in tone from the rest of the series to the point where it literally only could have worked by being set in that time.

Then don't continue Dragon Ball with the same characters and set in the same time.

That wouldn't sell as well. Dragon Ball isn't Gundam or some generational anime. When people think of Dragon Ball they think Goku/Vegeta/Piccolo/Gohan etc. Would there be an audience for what you suggest? A smaller one. I know personally I have no interest in seeing the series turn into that. Goku Jr did nothing for me. Bardock is okay for a little one off, but I don't care. People have watched Goku's adventures since the 80's. The only reason the series even remained relevant via video games for nearly 20 years is because they recycled the old stories. And this rebirth showed the audience is those characters.

Goku's like Superman, you can tell a few stories before and after him, but at the end of the day, he's who they want to read about. We saw what happened in the Boo arc when they tried to transition away from Goku.

[kn83]

I might get raged at for this but I honestly think Toriyama has become a lot like the George Lucas of Dragon Ball...

I think he needs to leave it in more capable hands and the notion that Toriyama's involvement adds more value to the product needs to be dropped by certain parts of this fandom.

The difference between Toriyama and Lucas is that Lucas made two great films and they were largely a result of him having more constraints and having checks and balances on the franchise, when Lucas was left without people to filter his vision it went off the rails and exposed that he's a good idea man, but not good at the technical aspects of crafting a story. Toriyama was largely always winging Dragon Ball and it shows. The only cohesive arcs are really the Saiyan arc and Freeza arc. Aside from that the only connections between the story were the 22nd tournament ending on the cliffhanger of Kuriren's death, Piccolo and Kami saying a few things in an alien language, and namedropping the Red Ribbon army in the Android Arc. Super has largely been more interconnected from arc to arc than the rest of the series.

Exactly. Toriyama himself said that he wrote the entire manga on the fly. The fact that any of it connects to each other at all is a miracle.

[Doctor.]

Doesn't have a single main character in it unless you count Freeza who at that point was the antagonist for that specific arc and was deeply different in tone from the rest of the series to the point where it literally only could have worked by being set in that time.

Then don't continue Dragon Ball with the same characters and set in the same time.

That wouldn't sell as well. Dragon Ball isn't Gundam or some generational anime. When people think of Dragon Ball they think Goku/Vegeta/Piccolo/Gohan etc. Would there be an audience for what you suggest? A smaller one. I know personally I have no interest in seeing the series turn into that. Goku Jr did nothing for me. Bardock is okay for a little one off, but I don't care. People have watched Goku's adventures since the 80's. The only reason the series even remained relevant via video games for nearly 20 years is because they recycled the old stories. And this rebirth showed the audience is those characters.

Goku's like Superman, you can tell a few stories before and after him, but at the end of the day, he's who they want to read about. We saw what happened in the Boo arc when they tried to transition away from Goku.

I mean, you can make spin-offs. I'm not sure why some people think a full-blown serious rebot-esque sequel is what people are talking about when they talk about a new cast. Experiment first and see the reaction.

[lancerman]

Then don't continue Dragon Ball with the same characters and set in the same time.

That wouldn't sell as well. Dragon Ball isn't Gundam or some generational anime. When people think of Dragon Ball they think Goku/Vegeta/Piccolo/Gohan etc. Would there be an audience for what you suggest? A smaller one. I know personally I have no interest in seeing the series turn into that. Goku Jr did nothing for me. Bardock is okay for a little one off, but I don't care. People have watched Goku's adventures since the 80's. The only reason the series even remained relevant via video games for nearly 20 years is because they recycled the old stories. And this rebirth showed the audience is those characters.

Goku's like Superman, you can tell a few stories before and after him, but at the end of the day, he's who they want to read about. We saw what happened in the Boo arc when they tried to transition away from Goku.

I mean, you can make spin-offs. I'm not sure why some people think a full-blown serious rebot-esque sequel is what people are talking about when they talk about a new cast. Experiment first and see the reaction.

I wasn't talking about a reboot....

[Doctor.]

I wasn't talking about a reboot....

A generation series is a soft reboot.

[lancerman]

I wasn't talking about a reboot....

A generation series is a soft reboot.

Not really, it's just a spinoff in the future. That's like saying Rugrats All Grown Up is a reboot or the Flintstones series with Pebbles and Bam Bam as teenagers is a reboot.

[kn83]

Doesn't anyone think Toei or Toyotaro should make a Xenoverse or Heroes series? Its basically a next-gen story.

[Kaboom]

...so stop lying to yourself.
...
Its like these delusional nostalgia-tards refuse to admit it whenever Super does anything better than Z and Early DB.

This is a retarded argument...
...
Yet you hypocritical nostalgia-tards refuse to see that lmao.
...
This is just false all around.
...
Why do so many idiots assume...
...
Yet many are too autistic to see that.
...
At this point you have proven through your whiny post that you are just another nostalgia blind fan with double standards

No he wasn't, you are in denial.
...
Stop deluding yourself.
...
So what are you bitching about?
...
Bullshit.
...
Nobody is throwing Z under a bus, I'm just pointing out the hilarious double standards of nostalgia-tards like yourself. You keep denying being a nostalgia-tard yet repeat every single fallacy they make lmao.
...
Earlier in this thread you were bitching about the power-boost Goku got after Jiren attacked the stands, now you wanna admit it made sense? I already won this debate. You can't even keep your complains consistent

Take a good look everyone, because these are prime examples of how NOT to discuss or "debate" things with your peers.

The "issue" has been dealt with for at least the next month, so additional reports are no longer necessary. Thanks.

[Shinsa]

Then don't continue Dragon Ball with the same characters and set in the same time.

That wouldn't sell as well. Dragon Ball isn't Gundam or some generational anime. When people think of Dragon Ball they think Goku/Vegeta/Piccolo/Gohan etc. Would there be an audience for what you suggest? A smaller one. I know personally I have no interest in seeing the series turn into that. Goku Jr did nothing for me. Bardock is okay for a little one off, but I don't care. People have watched Goku's adventures since the 80's. The only reason the series even remained relevant via video games for nearly 20 years is because they recycled the old stories. And this rebirth showed the audience is those characters.

Goku's like Superman, you can tell a few stories before and after him, but at the end of the day, he's who they want to read about. We saw what happened in the Boo arc when they tried to transition away from Goku.

I mean, you can make spin-offs. I'm not sure why some people think a full-blown serious rebot-esque sequel is what people are talking about when they talk about a new cast. Experiment first and see the reaction.

This! People are way to afraid of a new cast/generation of characters. Imo this is needed badly as the original DB cast have been overly developed or under developed due to not knowing what to do with them i.e. gohan, trunks, gohten, etc. Not aging the world and characters making them immortal is a big mistake and why the series will still be considered "for kids". Just because there's a new cast doesnt mean old ones wont show up.. would be so cool to see an old man goku or a Vegeta who finally assumes the role as king...maybe instead of "trying to be better then Kakarrot" he could do something useful and try to preserve the Saiyan race.