Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:29 am

Super Saiyan Swagger wrote:If I had to complain about something, it's that we didn't get to see Beerus tell the Universe 7 fighters how proud he was. I at least wanted him to say something to Goku.
I don't mind that, because he was praising the main cast about how well they were doing while the tournament was going on and it would been a little redundant to see he repeat the same verbiage after the tournament was over. And knowing how prideful Beerus, the last thing you'll see him do is pat someone the back and say "Good job, man!"

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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by Olympian » Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:09 am

Vegeta_Sama wrote:
TobyS wrote:
precita wrote:Is it just me or was Yamcha not shown in the ending?
In the ending montage he was wiggling a toy bear at Bulla while everyone stood around smiling and chatting/Vegeta stood off to the side like a grumpy douche. Iirc
I still don't understand how he can hang around his ex and his ex's daughter without feeling super awkward.
Unlike the other guy he`s not a grouchy dick.

It shouldn`t surprise anyone that Yamcha doesn`t hold grudges. When Freeza returns to Earth, we already seem him sitting at the same table as Vegeta, chilling a Cola outside and by the Cell arc he`s the one telling Future Trunks how much his father cares despite not showing anything other than grouching against a tree. In the ending of the arc we are told Yamcha already has another girlfriend.

After Vegeta choses to go Majin and do it again (ops) Yamcha is the one comforting Bulma. Not a Roshi comforting maneuver (ifyouknowwhatImean) but an actual friend comforting another. In Goku and Friends (2008), Yamcha is the one who rushes to save Bulma, Puar and Oolong while Vegeta...what was he doing again?

Anyhow, he`s a chill guy. Hence why Sabat jokes fall flat when it comes to his former relationship.
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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by Deathbeam » Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:19 am

BlueBasilisk wrote: But they showed Frieza rebuilding the Frieza Force, and that guy Goku was fighting in the trailer was wearing modern style Frieza Force armor?
The armor that Frieza force wears was invented by the people of Plant before Saiyans conquered the planet. So it is not Frieza's force trademark.

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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by sintzu » Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:20 am

TheMikado wrote:The series is incomplete.
This is true as there's a new movie taking place after it with a series potentially to follow in 2019.

In terms of Zeno, he had to erase Trunks' timeline as not only did Zamasu become part of it but he was also getting into other timelines so he had to act fast.

The other universes are a good point which have been brought up more than once. I guess we'll just have to wait and see how things play out as some think they're back thanks to 17's wish.

The tournament had 2 main reasons to happen : 1- Zeno and the angels wanted to test everyone and see if they were good enough to think of others when given the chance to make the wish. 2- Everyone including Goku wanted to see everyone do their best, something that wouldn't have happened had they not thought their universe was on the line.

Why would you want Super's events to be reset when the franchise is at an all time high ?
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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:41 am

sintzu wrote:
TheMikado wrote:The series is incomplete.
This is true as there's a new movie taking place after it with a series potentially to follow in 2019.

In terms of Zeno, he had to erase Trunks' timeline as not only did Zamasu become part of it but he was also getting into other timelines so he had to act fast.

The other universes are a good point which have been brought up more than once. I guess we'll just have to wait and see how things play out as some think they're back thanks to 17's wish.

The tournament had 2 main reasons to happen : 1- Zeno and the angels wanted to test everyone and see if they were good enough to think of others when given the chance to make the wish. 2- Everyone including Goku wanted to see everyone do their best, something that wouldn't have happened had they not thought their universe was on the line.

Why would you want Super's events to be reset when the franchise is at an all time high ?
I don't buy any of Zenos reasoning as he's repeatedly told and shown to be amoral and dangerous making it really hard to buy he'd go through all this just to see if people are nice if you back them into a corner. Much like how 17s arc" of becoming more human rings very hollow since I do not get where he's coming from at the start or buy where he ends up.
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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by Deathbeam » Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:45 am

Okara wrote: And what the hell is going on with Frieza? Why are they letting him live? The deal was that he’d be revived, not that they’d let him go commit more genocide.
But what makes you believe that he will?
In Nekomajin and in Xenoverse ( Yeah, I know, Xenoverse is not exactly the best of the references) it is hinted that Frieza dropped his idea of universal domination and devoted himself and his force to building up an elite squad of galactic mercenaries.

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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by Deathbeam » Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:48 am

goku the krump dancer wrote: - If anything I'm most shocked about Freeza being alive.. for now anyway. Hopfully new dude in the Movie this year kills him so that there's still some wiggle room for GT to fit with this time line lol.
GT is lost.
Otherwise we would have seen kid goku blue and vegeta blue in the series.

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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by Amir » Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:50 am

Opinions are fine and all, but can people please at least watch the episode and what was said about Zeno's predictions with the wish and the purpose behind the tournament before calling this entire TOP meaningless?
That little interesting detail was a very good reason to make the tournament and it gave it a proper meaning.

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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by Xehanort » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:01 am

And there ends Super, what a ride it was! I didn't like BoG arc, hated RoF, thought FT was the worst goddamn thing Dragon Ball related ever, but I can't deny how much I enjoyed ToP even with all it's glaring problems. And although I didn't exactly like how they concluded this, the episode itself was well put together.

I just think they should've made a more "risky" ending, with everlasting consequences. This was just way too safe to leave an impact, and i'm of the opinion that wishing all universes back made the entire plot completely superfluous. Frieza getting revived was a cool touch, but the way they did it was stupid. So revival is another bullshit ability Whis' stupid staff can do? The noticeable nerf on Jiren's strength compared to 109-110 was very annoying to me, and although they did develop his character in this episode it was probably in the most cliche'd and uncreative way ever. And we didn't get to know what he wanted to wish for, I was so hyped to know where they were going with his character. Meh :problem:

It was very rushed, ending the fight in one half and concluding the story and characters in the other, but it was well directed and the animation was stellar. Can't wait for the movie :D
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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by TheMikado » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:02 am

sintzu wrote:
TheMikado wrote:The series is incomplete.
This is true as there's a new movie taking place after it with a series potentially to follow in 2019.

In terms of Zeno, he had to erase Trunks' timeline as not only did Zamasu become part of it but he was also getting into other timelines so he had to act fast.

The other universes are a good point which have been brought up more than once. I guess we'll just have to wait and see how things play out as some think they're back thanks to 17's wish.

The tournament had 2 main reasons to happen : 1- Zeno and the angels wanted to test everyone and see if they were good enough to think of others when given the chance to make the wish. 2- Everyone including Goku wanted to see everyone do their best, something that wouldn't have happened had they not thought their universe was on the line.

Why would you want Super's events to be reset when the franchise is at an all time high ?
But again, writing wise these GoD and kaioshin have known Zeno for years. If he’s in charge of all reality he could have simple erased Zamasu alone and preserved what’s left. More importantly if he is so wise and caring how in the world did Zamasu get to that point anyway as he was killing off kaioshin and GoD. Yet Zeno shows up for the Champa tournament held on a Super Dragonball of all places. I just assumed due to him being a man child he cared about the tournament but not enough about the universe to care if someone was systematically wiping them out.

Basically in context of everything thing we’ve seen, Beerus repeatedly no doing his job, Buu wiping out much of the universe. Zamasu killing kaioshin and GoDs, and Zeno wiping out 6 universes without caring about it, it was all consistent with a Zeno who didn’t care or acted like a child. The entire Dragonball multiverse made sense because the one being powerful enough to prove that these things didn’t care enough about them to do anything.

Literally the entirety of the series made sense in the context of how Zeno was characterized. Then suddenly at the very end it reveals that he foresaw these events in his wisdom and actually cares enough to hold this tournament with pseudo stakes. Which begs the question why?

The ending reveal doesn’t fit into anything we know about the history of the Dragonballs multiverse and completely goes against the established characterization. It doesn’t fit and feels like someone just lazily threw it together without much thought.

As far as the why reset?

The problem narratively is that we have basically unlimited cop outs now which I’ve been complaining about since the Champa arc.

They have three sets of Dragonballs, possibly more with one of which granting any wish.

Goku has 6-7 different transformations now.

We have suddenly had SSB level characters.

We have multiple mechanisms for manipulating time.

Whis can rewind time and if that isn’t enough he suddenly can raise the dead and deliver babies and basically anything where the writers don’t have to think too much and just make him do whatever the plot demands.

To top of off the king of everything is now on Gokus side and not a dangerous entity they need to be careful not to piss off by getting into trouble and who apparently has a button that Goku can use to call him anytime. Assuming he gets another one, plus to top it off there’s two of them now!

Narratively it’s impossible for there to be any stak s or consequences at this point. It’s completely different then the characters having to deal with the consequences of their actions. Goku was dead multiple times for years at a time because of his small mistakes. Now they can literally correct them before there is even a problem. It removes all future tension beyond the question of who is going to win this fight. Doesn’t even matter because one of the several above mechanisms will come into play and everything will be ok. I enjoyed the fighting of DB but that wasn’t why it was revolutionary to me. As a kid watching Saturday morning cartoons in the 80s and 90s it never mattered how much trouble your protagonist got into they were always around next episode. I remember the first time watching Z and seeking Goku DIE. Like straight up DEAD. And not just immediately recover, he was dead for a whole year. That was life changing and when I realized that cartoons didn’t have to have kid plots. And to make it more interesting it was Gokus fault, he tried to do the right thing and let his own brother live and got killed for it, not everyone handshaking and hugging it out afterwards. He made a noble decision and got killed for it. It was amazing.

But that’s not what s happening here. I don’t want this to turn into a Saturday morning cartoon where there are no consequences. That’s not why I watch DB to see that everyone is ok in he most generic way possible, I watch it to see how they are going to get out of the next life threatening situation in an interesting way. But we are past that point. It doesn’t work like that anymore.

With all these mechanisms established, no one in the DB universe is going to stay dead or have any real consequences unless they are a villain and apparently not even that is an guarantee anymore.

I want a shonen style action- drama not a Saturday morning kids show but that’s not what we have and I have to accept that now.

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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by Draconic » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:03 am

This was a terrific ending for the Tournament. I almost can't believe they managed to pull off so much in so little time.

The final stretch of the fight was cool. Not anywhere near the greatness of 130, but it really shouldn't have been as flashy as that. These were the final seconds, where both Jiren and the rest of U7 were at the ends of the power, so things going out into a mess of a brawl fits so well. The amazing direction sold me completely on this.

Freeza and Jiren's dispute was marvelous. The physcological warfare method Freeza approached Jiren with is a blast to see, tying together well Jiren's loss at the hands of UI Goku last episode, with his lack of confidence this one.
Toppo being the one to talk some sense into Jiren was also nice to see. It helps show why Toppo is the leader of the Troopers, even though he's the second fiddle power-wise. His pitty for Jiren has been built up well ever since Belmond revealed the backstory and between Toppo's belittling by Jiren after his elimination by Vegeta and the appreciation everyone showed Jiren even after his elimination, the connection they formed was palpatable not just exposed trough generic dialogue.

Of course, the best thing about the ending was the fact that Jiren's end didn't come by the flashy new power up of the arc, but by the teamwork of U7. And what a team! Freeza, 17 and Goku are delightful together.
Sure, 17 takes a backseat during the actual fighting (even though he gets a nice moment), but to see Goku and Freeza fight alongside so well, even to Vegeta's bewilderment, was spectacular.

17 being the winner was a superb surprise. It's great to see that the MVP of the arc got that recognition in-universe too. Sure, the wish was predictable, but to me, the revelation that it was the only viable option for the winner makes it worth it even so. Having everything be a ploy by Zeno and the Grand Priest is great, not just because it adds a bit of flavor to an otherwise bland outcome, but by showing that whatver the Mortal Level is, it doesn't reflect the worth of said mortals, which Zeno could see first hand during the tournament.

Even Jiren, shitty build up and backstory included, ended up an worthwhile antagonist. Everything about him did end up tying nicely together. From his passivity during the early minutes caused by him not finding anyone worthwhile to engage with (even his teammates!); to his pride shown during the first fight with Goku; to him going back into meditation once every possible challange to him has been taken care of; to his bouts with Vegeta, which reflected his attitude better than even his fight with UI Goku; to taking his loss against Ultra Instinct Goku very personal; to him feeling worthless against Freeza and finding strength in his ties to U11 to not give up, lesson driven home, eventually, by being taken out in a team effort rather than outright overpowered.

Freeza coming back to life was well earned and it doesn't seem like he's becoming good anytime soon. He too was a blast to watch alongside 17 and I feel whatever damage RoF did to him, was completely undone this arc. Seeing him handled so well certainly "cured" the burnt out I felt everytime he came back before. He wasn't just a joke this time, but an actual character who grew, learned things and was smarter than just single-mindedly wanting to get his revenge on Goku as fast as possible.

Back on Earth it was nice to see everyone together. Even fucking Buu woke up, the lazy bum. The kids saved the island, 17 got his cruise, Tights was there, Goku and Vegeta began a rematch. It was a nice wrap up to the show. It also feels more like an ending to the arc, rather than the series, giving even more credence to the fact Super will come back on TV, but even so, the arc itself ties up a number of threads built up troughout, that even if it is a true finale, it still works well.
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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by TheMikado » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:08 am

Amir wrote:Opinions are fine and all, but can people please at least watch the episode and what was said about Zeno's predictions with the wish and the purpose behind the tournament before calling this entire TOP meaningless?
That little interesting detail was a very good reason to make the tournament and it gave it a proper meaning.
Even after watching it makes less sense because of the context of everything else in the universe.

Where was Zeno and him caring about he universe during Buus rampage, or Beerus sleeping why Frieza ruled the universe and and slaughtered mortals?
Where was he when Zamasu was hopping though universe and timelines killing mortals and kaioshin and GoDs?
How about when he erased Trunks timeline or the 6 universes?

If Zeno cares so much to concoct this whole ToP he hasn’t acted like it. That’s the point. It’s from complete left field given the context of the entire franchise.

It makes me so mad because it feels like the writers are treating us like we are stupid and won’t remember any of he build up or events leading to this point. It makes me mad because the ending feels insulting.

The major problem with this is that they could have just said Zeno has decided to bring all the universes back so that we can have a tournament again in the future and I would have bought it. He’s a child so him changing his mind would make sense when his reason to erase them was so dumb in the first place.

They didn’t need this elaborate good guy Zeno that doesn’t fit with his previous characterization.

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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by bleed0range » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:13 am

I thought it was a perfect ending. I loved 17 winning and getting the wish, didn’t see that coming. My favorite part though was actually a part I’ve seen very few talk about... I loved how Goku’s hair flashed SSJ a few times while working with Freeza before going full SSJ. Such a cool throwback to the first time he went SSJ while fighting against Freeza.

Actually, I feel like Freeza is beginning to fill the role Vegeta filled during the Freeza/Android arc. Which I like because it makes him and his interactions with Goku so interesting.

I have a feeling that the movie will have something to do with Freeza noting throughout the tournament of power just how useful saiyans can be. He has a newfound respect for the race and their ability to get so powerful, powerful as Gods. Maybe he’ll recruit a saiyan from another universe into his army and take advantage of their ability to become so powerful... possibly to get his revenge on Goku or just to dominate the universe.

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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by SHINOBI-03 » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:14 am

And another journey comes to an end. :(

The finale was well done with the most surprising thing was AH17 being the one to save everyone! It wasn't Freeza, it wasn't Goku, it was 17. The epilogue might've been a bit rushed but since I liked the ending I'll let it pass.

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To think when Battle of Gods was first announced we will get all of this. I was still at my old place and now I'm in my new one with the end of Super. It was one long trip full of ups and downs, but the certain fact remains: I will never stop loving Dragon Ball and this community. :clap:
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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by bleed0range » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:17 am

TheMikado wrote:
Amir wrote:Opinions are fine and all, but can people please at least watch the episode and what was said about Zeno's predictions with the wish and the purpose behind the tournament before calling this entire TOP meaningless?
That little interesting detail was a very good reason to make the tournament and it gave it a proper meaning.
Even after watching it makes less sense because of the context of everything else in the universe.

Where was Zeno and him caring about he universe during Buus rampage, or Beerus sleeping why Frieza ruled the universe and and slaughtered mortals?
Where was he when Zamasu was hopping though universe and timelines killing mortals and kaioshin and GoDs?
How about when he erased Trunks timeline or the 6 universes?

If Zeno cares so much to concoct this whole ToP he hasn’t acted like it. That’s the point. It’s from complete left field given the context of the entire franchise.

It makes me so mad because it feels like the writers are treating us like we are stupid and won’t remember any of he build up or events leading to this point. It makes me mad because the ending feels insulting.

The major problem with this is that they could have just said Zeno has decided to bring all the universes back so that we can have a tournament again in the future and I would have bought it. He’s a child so him changing his mind would make sense when his reason to erase them was so dumb in the first place.

They didn’t need this elaborate good guy Zeno that doesn’t fit with his previous characterization.
The universe is very huge and those were very localized threats to someone like Zeno. They don’t seem to literally watch every little thing... but perhaps Zamasu’s interference gave the Zeno pause about not only the mortals but the Gods of their universe and they wanted to prove they were and would be righteous in the end.

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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by BlueBasilisk » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:22 am

Deathbeam wrote:
BlueBasilisk wrote: But they showed Frieza rebuilding the Frieza Force, and that guy Goku was fighting in the trailer was wearing modern style Frieza Force armor?
The armor that Frieza force wears was invented by the people of Plant before Saiyans conquered the planet. So it is not Frieza's force trademark.
Vegeta commented in the U6 arc that the Saiyans wore armor like Cabba's before they met up with Frieza. But I meant that the armor he's wearing is the same style as Shisami and Tagoma's. Afaik that type didn't appear before RoF.

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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by jeffbr92 » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:23 am

Bullza wrote:Anyone notice how a chunk of Frieza's tail went missing at the end?
Like Gaffer Tape mentioned before: "They can't pass anything without making a Freeza arc callback" lol
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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by Deathbeam » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:23 am

BlueBasilisk wrote:
Deathbeam wrote:
BlueBasilisk wrote: But they showed Frieza rebuilding the Frieza Force, and that guy Goku was fighting in the trailer was wearing modern style Frieza Force armor?
The armor that Frieza force wears was invented by the people of Plant before Saiyans conquered the planet. So it is not Frieza's force trademark.
Vegeta commented in the U6 arc that the Saiyans wore armor like Cabba's before they met up with Frieza. But I meant that the armor he's wearing is the same style as Shisami and Tagoma's. Afaik that type didn't appear before RoF.
Still I find it hard to believe that Frieza would enlist yet another saiyan, probably stronger than he is, in his newly reformed army.

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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by TheMikado » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:26 am

bleed0range wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
Amir wrote:Opinions are fine and all, but can people please at least watch the episode and what was said about Zeno's predictions with the wish and the purpose behind the tournament before calling this entire TOP meaningless?
That little interesting detail was a very good reason to make the tournament and it gave it a proper meaning.
Even after watching it makes less sense because of the context of everything else in the universe.

Where was Zeno and him caring about he universe during Buus rampage, or Beerus sleeping why Frieza ruled the universe and and slaughtered mortals?
Where was he when Zamasu was hopping though universe and timelines killing mortals and kaioshin and GoDs?
How about when he erased Trunks timeline or the 6 universes?

If Zeno cares so much to concoct this whole ToP he hasn’t acted like it. That’s the point. It’s from complete left field given the context of the entire franchise.

It makes me so mad because it feels like the writers are treating us like we are stupid and won’t remember any of he build up or events leading to this point. It makes me mad because the ending feels insulting.

The major problem with this is that they could have just said Zeno has decided to bring all the universes back so that we can have a tournament again in the future and I would have bought it. He’s a child so him changing his mind would make sense when his reason to erase them was so dumb in the first place.

They didn’t need this elaborate good guy Zeno that doesn’t fit with his previous characterization.
The universe is very huge and those were very localized threats to someone like Zeno. They don’t seem to literally watch every little thing... but perhaps Zamasu’s interference gave the Zeno pause about not only the mortals but the Gods of their universe and they wanted to prove they were and would be righteous in the end.
The point is Zeno is claiming to care about their development but none of his previous actions reflect this. Even the ones on the multiverse level. Zeno didn’t care that Beerus hasn’t been doing his job for millions of years at a time.

He wasn’t involved enough to stop Zamasu before he ruined the multi universe but cared enough and wise and mature enough to make an elaborate tournament to test them or any of the other various occurrences. But still hands on enough to give Goku a button to call him whenever he wanted. Again the characterization is uneven and doesn’t fit in all the context. The man-child Zeno made sense right up until the last episode and I never complained about it beyond not personally liking him being a man-child but that was personal preference not a critique of actual writing consistency.

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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by Michsi » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:37 am

TheMikado wrote:
bleed0range wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
Even after watching it makes less sense because of the context of everything else in the universe.

Where was Zeno and him caring about he universe during Buus rampage, or Beerus sleeping why Frieza ruled the universe and and slaughtered mortals?
Where was he when Zamasu was hopping though universe and timelines killing mortals and kaioshin and GoDs?
How about when he erased Trunks timeline or the 6 universes?

If Zeno cares so much to concoct this whole ToP he hasn’t acted like it. That’s the point. It’s from complete left field given the context of the entire franchise.

It makes me so mad because it feels like the writers are treating us like we are stupid and won’t remember any of he build up or events leading to this point. It makes me mad because the ending feels insulting.

The major problem with this is that they could have just said Zeno has decided to bring all the universes back so that we can have a tournament again in the future and I would have bought it. He’s a child so him changing his mind would make sense when his reason to erase them was so dumb in the first place.

They didn’t need this elaborate good guy Zeno that doesn’t fit with his previous characterization.
The universe is very huge and those were very localized threats to someone like Zeno. They don’t seem to literally watch every little thing... but perhaps Zamasu’s interference gave the Zeno pause about not only the mortals but the Gods of their universe and they wanted to prove they were and would be righteous in the end.
The point is Zeno is claiming to care about their development but none of his previous actions reflect this. Even the ones on the multiverse level. Zeno didn’t care that Beerus hasn’t been doing his job for millions of years at a time.

He wasn’t involved enough to stop Zamasu before he ruined the multi universe but cared enough and wise and mature enough to make an elaborate tournament to test them or any of the other various occurrences. But still hands on enough to give Goku a button to call him whenever he wanted. Again the characterization is uneven and doesn’t fit in all the context. The man-child Zeno made sense right up until the last episode and I never complained about it beyond not personally liking him being a man-child but that was personal preference not a critique of actual writing consistency.
For a while I thought they were going for a subtle hint that the Omni King and the Angels were a little on the cruel side. The King's child-like glee at the general mayhem and the idea that he was seeking entertainment from mortals fighting for their lives seemed to suggest he and his kind were pretty messed up.
Them trying to correct it by having it appear like it was all part of a righteous godly plan was a little silly, and reminded me of them trying to mitigate Goku's responsibility in causing the TOP in the first place by teliing us "oh, he was planning on erasing them anyway. Goku just gave them a fighting change"-which by the way, also contradicts how the Omni King is shown in the last episode.

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