The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Champa The Destroyer]

Super Saiyan Blue Gotenks vs. Hit (U6 Arc)

SSR Goku Black (Scythe) vs current SSB Goku (without Kaioken)

Current Ultimate Gohan vs. Super Saiyan Rage Trunks

[dragon boss z]

Bassless assuption. Its different universe. You have no idea whats goes on in U6's history. Kid Goku, Raditz and Nappa been through a lot of shit as well yet they never when SSJ either. Its bad argument you're making.

Ya, and I have no problem with Cabba being thousands of times stronger than Raditz and Nappa even though he is younger than them.

1. You are projecting your desires onto Toriyama. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it wasn't Toriyama's intent . There is no strong indication that Vegeta was lying to Cabba about his strength as even Goku and others complimented Cabba's base strength. Vegeta wouldn't have taken much of an interest in Cabba if he was barely Buu arc level like you seem to believe. And Frost is definitely NOT weaker than Pre-RoF Freeza.

If you just go by the manga there is absolute no evidence that suggests any base saiyan being stronger than Buu. If it's not in both the manga and anime it is more likely a toei decision than a Toriyama one.

2. Gohan started training again with Piccolo after RoF. That fight with Goku was after the RoF arc so you have nothing to whine about. Same with Krillin (though Goku make it clear he was holding back with him).

Like I said, right in the episode Gohan said he hasn't been training recently. Gohan was stronger than he was in RoF, but it was confirmed he didn't reach his Buu saga self until his final training with Piccolo.

Plus, remember when SSJ Gohan two-shotted Tagoma, who was stated to be equal to Mystic Gohan from the Buu arc?

Tagoma wasn't stated to be mystic Gohan tier. This was confirmed by Herms. Gohan said he might be hiding power on par with his current best, not his all time best. And if he actually meant his all time best, then how could he possibly stomp his all time best in two shots? That doesn't make any logical sense. Tagoma, at max, is perfect Cell level. Though I wouldn't be surprised if he was supposed to be weaker than namek Frieza. I feel the writers forgot how strong Piccolo was. Heck, in the movie they thought first form Frieza getting a power level of 1.3 million was impressive. But if we completely accept Tagoma stomping a prime Piccolo, that still only puts him at perfect Cell level tops as Piccolo was never proven to be on that level.

3. Toriyama has never said anything about Buu's strength being why he keeps writing him out of tournaments, that's just your BS headcanon. Fat Buu is far weaker than post-BoG base Goku and Vegeta,

So does he hate Buu or something? Buu was Goku's first choice over Gohan and Piccolo. In the RoF arc Krillin said it should be OK because they have Gohan and Buu, confirming he thinks both of them are above Piccolo. And Roshi said "so much for my let Buu handle it plan" confirming he thinks Buu is their strongest fighter besides Goku and Vegeta. It has been made pretty clear multiple times he was the third strongest Z fighter until 17 and mystic Gohan.

Gohan and even Piccolo (who should be at least relative to Mystic Gohan via feats and training since RoF).

Now you are the one using head canon. You can't just say they are that strong because you want them to be. And no feats put them at that level.

4. Roshi never really pushed Goku at any point in Super nor Frost in the ToP. Frost was slapping him around and wasn't going anywhere near full power so what are you complaining about?

Roshi made Goku's fists tingle and Frost was pushed back for a few seconds. And Roshi is probably namek tier at best.

[kn83]

Bassless assuption. Its different universe. You have no idea whats goes on in U6's history. Kid Goku, Raditz and Nappa been through a lot of shit as well yet they never when SSJ either. Its bad argument you're making.

Ya, and I have no problem with Cabba being thousands of times stronger than Raditz and Nappa even though he is younger than them.

1. You are projecting your desires onto Toriyama. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it wasn't Toriyama's intent . There is no strong indication that Vegeta was lying to Cabba about his strength as even Goku and others complimented Cabba's base strength. Vegeta wouldn't have taken much of an interest in Cabba if he was barely Buu arc level like you seem to believe. And Frost is definitely NOT weaker than Pre-RoF Freeza.

If you just go by the manga there is absolute no evidence that suggests any base saiyan being stronger than Buu. If it's not in both the manga and anime it is more likely a toei decision than a Toriyama one.

2. Gohan started training again with Piccolo after RoF. That fight with Goku was after the RoF arc so you have nothing to whine about. Same with Krillin (though Goku make it clear he was holding back with him).

Like I said, right in the episode Gohan said he hasn't been training recently. Gohan was stronger than he was in RoF, but it was confirmed he didn't reach his Buu saga self until his final training with Piccolo.

Plus, remember when SSJ Gohan two-shotted Tagoma, who was stated to be equal to Mystic Gohan from the Buu arc?

Tagoma wasn't stated to be mystic Gohan tier. This was confirmed by Herms. Gohan said he might be hiding power on par with his current best, not his all time best. And if he actually meant his all time best, then how could he possibly stomp his all time best in two shots? That doesn't make any logical sense. Tagoma, at max, is perfect Cell level. Though I wouldn't be surprised if he was supposed to be weaker than namek Frieza. I feel the writers forgot how strong Piccolo was. Heck, in the movie they thought first form Frieza getting a power level of 1.3 million was impressive. But if we completely accept Tagoma stomping a prime Piccolo, that still only puts him at perfect Cell level tops as Piccolo was never proven to be on that level.

3. Toriyama has never said anything about Buu's strength being why he keeps writing him out of tournaments, that's just your BS headcanon. Fat Buu is far weaker than post-BoG base Goku and Vegeta,

So does he hate Buu or something? Buu was Goku's first choice over Gohan and Piccolo. In the RoF arc Krillin said it should be OK because they have Gohan and Buu, confirming he thinks both of them are above Piccolo. And Roshi said "so much for my let Buu handle it plan" confirming he thinks Buu is their strongest fighter besides Goku and Vegeta. It has been made pretty clear multiple times he was the third strongest Z fighter until 17 and mystic Gohan.

Gohan and even Piccolo (who should be at least relative to Mystic Gohan via feats and training since RoF).

Now you are the one using head canon. You can't just say they are that strong because you want them to be. And no feats put them at that level.

4. Roshi never really pushed Goku at any point in Super nor Frost in the ToP. Frost was slapping him around and wasn't going anywhere near full power so what are you complaining about?

Roshi made Goku's fists tingle and Frost was pushed back for a few seconds. And Roshi is probably namek tier at best.

1. Base Cabba vs Vegeta proves that all of the relevant base saiyans are above Buu arc level. Deny it all you want. Fat Buu never actually fights anyone before the ToP arc, so your speculation about Fat Buu being too strong for the plot is complete headcanon bullshit. Vegeta's line about him and Cabba being equals (despite the god-level training) was in the manga too, there is no way around it.

2. Gohan said he didn't regain his Ultimate form before the ToP arc, not his strength. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXHXwZALf6g

3. Goku, Krillin nor Roshi hasn't seen Gohan and Piccolo train personally til ToP arc, so of course they wouldn't know if they were stronger than Buu. Your arguments give no strong proof of Buu>Gohan and Piccolo pre-ToP.

4. Goku was merely impressed and excited by Roshi's improved power. He never said he was relative to him in base.

[dragon boss z]

1. Base Cabba vs Vegeta proves that all of the relevant base saiyans are above Buu arc level. Deny it all you want. Fat Buu never actually fights anyone before the ToP arc, so your speculation about Fat Buu being too strong for the plot is complete headcanon bullshit. Vegeta's line about him and Cabba being equals (despite the god-level training) was in the manga too, there is no way around it.

But like I said, in the manga there is no proof base Goku and Vegeta are above even Cell. They never absorbed god ki and they never beat anyone proven to be above Cell or Buu in base. In the anime their base forms are at least Buu tier, but int he anime they absorbed god ki.

2. Gohan said he didn't regain his Ultimate form before the ToP arc, not his strength. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXHXwZALf6g

It was Piccolo who said "regain the power you used against Buu".

3. Goku, Krillin nor Roshi hasn't seen Gohan and Piccolo train personally til ToP arc, so of course they wouldn't know if they were stronger than Buu. Your arguments give no strong proof of Buu>Gohan and Piccolo pre-ToP.

So you think your head canon is above character statements? Even after RoF Buu was still considered number 3 sooooo.

4. Goku was merely impressed and excited by Roshi's improved power. He never said he was relative to him in base.

His power was making him excited. Krillin made Goku go ssj. Krillin can't even beat Namek Frieza.

[Dragon Ball Gus]

All right, time for another hypothetical question. Since Super is about to end in just a few hours, I think it's fitting to ask this question:

How strong would my boy Vegetto be if he achieved Mastered Ultra Instinct?

[Champa The Destroyer]

All right, time for another hypothetical question. Since Super is about to end in just a few hours, I think it's fitting to ask this question:

How strong would my boy Vegetto be if he achieved Mastered Ultra Instinct?

I don't think he would be quite as strong as the angels, but I think he could one shot the GoDs.

Who is the strongest character MUI Gotenks could beat?

[AvatarReiko]

Zen-Oh vs Super Shenron
BKKx20 Goku vs ASSJB Vegeta

[Berserker1921]

Super Saiyan Blue Gotenks vs. Hit (U6 Arc)

SSR Goku Black (Scythe) vs current SSB Goku (without Kaioken)

Current Ultimate Gohan vs. Super Saiyan Rage Trunks

1. The kids will lose, cause they're too cocky and would screw it up. Hit wins easily.

2. Goku was doing pretty well against a powered up Jiren. So goku.

3. Trunks, he killed someone who is at least on par or near GoD toppo.

[Puaru]

Gohan VS Master Roshi.

Definitely Master Roshi IMO. Gohan is weaker than my little sister.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

SSJ Goku and Trunks (Mecha Arc) vs Android 20 (Post absorbtions). The Saiyans are aware of the absorbtions.

[Champa The Destroyer]

Zen-Oh vs Super Shenron
BKKx20 Goku vs ASSJB Vegeta

While Zeno can erase multiverses with ease, Super Shenron was stated to be able to grant any wish. So I would say Super Shenron is a little stronger.

I think Vegeta would win because of his extra time in the ROSAT.

Super Saiyan 3 Kefla vs Full Power Jiren (episode 127)

Uub, Pan, and Goku both go into the ROSAT for 10 years, Goku training them to achieve and master UI. Once they get out, they have both achieved MUI. Who is the strongest person UUB and Pan can beat? This is their EoZ iterations that went into the ROSAT btw.

[SirTorra]

The Z-Fighterz go up against the Pride Troopers for the sake of their universe. They battle in an indestructible planet with no other life present in the planet. Winner would be declared once an entire team is knocked out, submits or dies.

Only anime feats allowed since we have hardly any for the troopers in the manga.

The Z-Fighterz will consist of Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo, 18, Krillin, Tien, Roshi, Yamcha and kid Trunks.


Round 1: All in character. Standard fight

Round 2: Swap out Krillin, Tien, Roshi for Buu, Gotenks, and Future Trunks. The same as round 1

[Pantalones]

Zen-Oh vs Super Shenron

This would probably be similar to when Piccolo Daimao killed regular Shenlong back in the day. Kami was stronger than Daimao but Daimao could still destroy Shenlong without any real difficulty -- so Super Shenlong being able to grant literally any wish doesn't necessarily put him above Zen'oh in terms of power, seeing how the dragons' wish-granting power isn't really proportional to their actual "by the scouter" power.

If it's Zalama instead of his dragon, though... we don't know enough about Zalama to say one way or the other, but unless he(?) turns out to be the most powerful being in all 12 (18?) universes or has some way to negate Zen'oh's destructive power it's unlikely he'd be able to win. Plus, the Super Dragonballs could be a case of the balls being far more powerful than their creator due to them being the original set of balls that all others were based on; Zalama probably knows some tricks related to their creation that the Namekians who made lesser sets afterward didn't.

[Champa The Destroyer]

MUI Golden Freeza vs Beerus

MUI Beerus vs Whis

MUI Raditz runs a gauntlet. He gets healed and recovers stamina after every round and stays in MUI throughout every match.
1. Nappa
2. Saiyan Arc Vegeta
3. Dodoria
4. Zarbon
5. Recoome
6. Butter
7. Jeice
8. Ginyu (no body change)
9. Oozaru Vegeta
10. First form Freeza
11. Second Form Freeza
12. Third Form Freeza
13. Final Form Freeza
14. 100% Freeza (doesnt have stamina drain)
15. Android 17

[Sonofman]

Super Saiyan Blue Gotenks vs. Hit (U6 Arc)

SSR Goku Black (Scythe) vs current SSB Goku (without Kaioken)

Current Ultimate Gohan vs. Super Saiyan Rage Trunks

I'm going to have to go with Hit because, Gotenks isn't exactly a martial artist, nor does he have battle experience (besides fighting Buu). He's pretty novice in combat and comes up with kid-like moves. He's more of a comical fusion character to me.

SSB Goku would win. He's a lot stronger than he was when he fought Black.

Gohan has more potential than Trunks (doesn't mean Trunks has none though), but I'd give the edge to Gohan since he's trained under both Piccolo and Goku (whom are master martial artists), and he's had more experience if fighting tough battles. 60/40

[Pantalones]

MUI Raditz runs a gauntlet. He gets healed and recovers stamina after every round and stays in MUI throughout every match.
1. Nappa
2. Saiyan Arc Vegeta
3. Dodoria
4. Zarbon
5. Recoome
6. Butter
7. Jeice
8. Ginyu (no body change)
9. Oozaru Vegeta
10. First form Freeza
11. Second Form Freeza
12. Third Form Freeza
13. Final Form Freeza
14. 100% Freeza (doesnt have stamina drain)
15. Android 17

Even regular ol' Super Saiyan would give Raditz a big enough boost to handle everybody up through Burter and Jeice, so none of those guys would stand any chance whatsoever against Ultra Instinct Raditz.

Super Saiyan 2 would push him high enough to beat Ginyu, so UI Raditz should beat him easily too, especially if there's no body-changing allowed (but considering it's Ultra Instinct, that probably wouldn't make a difference since Ginyu's body-change beam won't be hitting him even if he tries it.)

Super Saiyan 3 Raditz would be more than enough to crush Oozaru Vegeta and (if you go with 1500 rather than 1200 for Raditz's level) first-form Freeza, so I think it's safe to say Ultra Instinct Raditz would be able to handle them too.

After that point... I suppose it depends on whether the silver-haired "limit breaker" form Goku got alongside complete Ultra Instinct always gives the same power-up no matter who gets it and when, or if it depends on the individual (how much untapped potential they have, whether their dormant power includes god ki or only normal ki, what other forms they had before, etc.) I would suspect it isn't a set "multiplier," despite how much people like to assume every form is a set multiplier... so Raditz probably isn't getting the exact same boost that Goku got, however much that might have been. A lot more than 20 times whatever the boost that Super Saiyan Blue gives is, that's all we know for sure.

I'd say at bare minimum he would be able to beat all of Freeza's lesser forms and then put up a fight against final-form Freeza for a while, but ultimately lose against Freeza once he uses anything close to 100% power.

[dragon boss z]

Current Vegito Blue vs 100% Jiren
Aniraza vs Base Toppo
SSJ Goten (post-ROSAT) vs A18 (Buu arc)
GT SSJ Gohan vs Togama (Ginyu)
Current Gogeta Blue vs any God of Destruction

-Jiren as of now
-Anilaza
-18
-any ssj cell games and up should definitely beat Tagoma
-Don't know

Super Saiyan Blue Gotenks vs. Hit (U6 Arc)

SSR Goku Black (Scythe) vs current SSB Goku (without Kaioken)

Current Ultimate Gohan vs. Super Saiyan Rage Trunks

-Hit
-SSB Goku
-Trunks

All right, time for another hypothetical question. Since Super is about to end in just a few hours, I think it's fitting to ask this question:

How strong would my boy Vegetto be if he achieved Mastered Ultra Instinct?

Above any GoD and maybe even above the angels. Probably at least close to low angel tier.

Who is the strongest character MUI Gotenks could beat?

ssj2 Kefla maybe, GoD Toppo, kkx20 Blue Goku, SSB2 Vegeta, and others on that tier I guess.

SSJ Goku and Trunks (Mecha Arc) vs Android 20 (Post absorbtions). The Saiyans are aware of the absorbtions.

Either saiyan solos imo.

Super Saiyan 3 Kefla vs Full Power Jiren (episode 127)

Jiren stomps

[Analytic]

SSJ Goku and Trunks (Mecha Arc) vs Android 20 (Post absorbtions). The Saiyans are aware of the absorbtions.

While 20 may not be as terrible as the rumors made him (really 17 and 18) out to be, I do think that he'd be able to beat Goku and Trunks handily. If he were that weak, I think the idea of him even being one of the Cyborgs that stomped Trunks would just be outright dismissed.

[ZombieVito]

Current Vegito Blue vs 100% Jiren
Aniraza vs Base Toppo
SSJ Goten (post-ROSAT) vs A18 (Buu arc)
GT SSJ Gohan vs Togama (Ginyu)
Current Gogeta Blue vs any God of Destruction

Jiren wins but it's a very difficult fight.
Aniraza beats him with small difficulty.
Goten one shots.
I have no idea how strong GT Goten is. I say Tagoma because fuck GT.
Gogeta dies.

Super Saiyan Blue Gotenks vs. Hit (U6 Arc)

SSR Goku Black (Scythe) vs current SSB Goku (without Kaioken)

Current Ultimate Gohan vs. Super Saiyan Rage Trunks

Hit wins without even using his Time Skip.
Equals. Since Black can use the rift to make clones, he wins.
I have Trunks a little stronger. It can go either way honestly.

New fights:

Base Kefla vs Base Vegetto [FT arc]. No time limit and no transformations.
Frost vs Magetta. Both U6 arc. Somehow Frost found a way to neutralize Magetta's endurance. Magetta doesn't lose his will to fight by anything.
SSBE Vegeta [Before Toppo boost] vs SSBKKx20 Goku. Both ToP arc. Goku doesn't have strain using Kaioken.
Base Cabba [ToP arc] vs Base Commeson Vegeta. No transformations.
LSS2 Kefla vs GoD Toppo. No time limit for Kefla.

[Champa The Destroyer]

Current Vegito Blue vs 100% Jiren
Aniraza vs Base Toppo
SSJ Goten (post-ROSAT) vs A18 (Buu arc)
GT SSJ Gohan vs Togama (Ginyu)
Current Gogeta Blue vs any God of Destruction

Jiren wins but it's a very difficult fight.
Aniraza beats him with small difficulty.
Goten one shots.
I have no idea how strong GT Goten is. I say Tagoma because fuck GT.
Gogeta dies.

Super Saiyan Blue Gotenks vs. Hit (U6 Arc)

SSR Goku Black (Scythe) vs current SSB Goku (without Kaioken)

Current Ultimate Gohan vs. Super Saiyan Rage Trunks

Hit wins without even using his Time Skip.
Equals. Since Black can use the rift to make clones, he wins.
I have Trunks a little stronger. It can go either way honestly.

New fights:

Base Kefla vs Base Vegetto [FT arc]. No time limit and no transformations.
Frost vs Magetta. Both U6 arc. Somehow Frost found a way to neutralize Magetta's endurance. Magetta doesn't lose his will to fight by anything.
SSBE Vegeta [Before Toppo boost] vs SSBKKx20 Goku. Both ToP arc. Goku doesn't have strain using Kaioken.
Base Cabba [ToP arc] vs Base Commeson Vegeta. No transformations.
LSS2 Kefla vs GoD Toppo. No time limit for Kefla.

I have no idea who would win.
Magetta would win, even without his endurance he would put up a decent fight against U6 Arc SS Vegeta.
I would give this one to Vegeta because of his extra time in the ROSAT.
What is Commeson?
I'm not sure. GoD Toppo forced SSBE Vegeta to get another boost to win, while Kefla fought UI Omen Goku, but didnt do very well. I'll say its a draw because I have UI Goku a lot higher then SSBE Vegeta.

Would Freeza win against Goku and Vegeta if in ROF he achieved UI and not the Golden Form?