Jiren's Wish

[precita]

This isn't bad writing, nor a plothole, as has been explained above.

[Asura]

How is it bad writing? You keep saying Super dropped this plot point when they didn't. They constantly reminded us it has something to do with his past trauma, it was suggested Jiren wanted to erase those past issues in one way or another, with all of his friendship and trust complex, his wish was related to his obsession with the past, but those past issues got resolved in the end, and thus his wish is no longer relevant, as it was part of his issues. Jiren got what he needed and changed for the better. I just have to disagree when you say they forgot about it.

Going along the lines of what faded said, it’s like never finding out who Black was, but because he was defeated in the end it never mattered anyway, that’s pretty much exactly what you and others are saying here.

And yes, the plot point was clearly dropped. When you bring something up and then never mention it again, that’s called dropping the plot point.

To be fair, the anime never hyped Jiren's wish as the manga is doing. Probably the manga will provide the answer.

They both hyped the wish. It was first brought up in 110 (or maybe 109?) and was one of the two mysteries of the arc, which was how did Jiren get so strong and what does he want to wish for. We got the first, but we didn’t get the second. Judging by the reactions here though I’d be willing to bet that if we never found out how Jiren got as strong as he did, people would still be defending it saying that since Jiren is a “mysterious guy” that we shouldn’t know anything in regards to how he got stronger than the gods.

This isn't bad writing, nor a plothole, as has been explained above.

It is a plot hole, because if I were to ask you what the reason was that Jiren wanted to win aside from not wanting to be erased, you couldn’t give me an answer. If I asked you what Jiren’s motivations were in this arc, you couldn’t give me an answer. If I am questioning an important aspect of the plot (the “villain”’s main motivation) and there is no answer, then there’s your plot hole.

But I’m sure people will be asking me why villains need motivations in the first place, just like those who asked why characters need personalities.

[Lord Beerus]

This isn't bad writing, nor a plothole, as has been explained above.

It is a plot hole, because if I were to ask you what the reason was that Jiren wanted to win aside from not wanting to be erased, you couldn’t give me an answer. If I asked you what Jiren’s motivations were in this arc, you couldn’t give me an answer. If I am questioning an important aspect of the plot (the “villain”’s main motivation) and there is no answer, then there’s your plot hole.

But I’m sure people will be asking me why villains need motivations in the first place, just like those who asked why characters need personalities.

Your misusing the term "plothole", Asura. Jiren wanted to take part in the tournament because he wanted to win the Super Dragon Balls and grant a wish that was apparently "selfish". He didn't win the TOP making any further insight into his initial wish pointless.

And, yes, you can have a good villain who doesn't have any motivation other than they are a villain because they can be.

[Dbzk1999]

This isn't bad writing, nor a plothole, as has been explained above.

It is a plot hole, because if I were to ask you what the reason was that Jiren wanted to win aside from not wanting to be erased, you couldn’t give me an answer. If I asked you what Jiren’s motivations were in this arc, you couldn’t give me an answer. If I am questioning an important aspect of the plot (the “villain”’s main motivation) and there is no answer, then there’s your plot hole.

But I’m sure people will be asking me why villains need motivations in the first place, just like those who asked why characters need personalities.

Your misusing the term "plothole", Asura. Jiren wanted to take part in the tournament because he wanted to win the Super Dragon Balls and grant a wish that was apparently "selfish". He didn't win the TOP making any further insight into his initial wish pointless.

And, yes, you can have a good villain who doesn't have any motivation other than they are a villain because they can be.

Case in point to the bolded, Adachi from Persona 4

[Baggie_Saiyan]

This isn't bad writing, nor a plothole, as has been explained above.

It is a plot hole, because if I were to ask you what the reason was that Jiren wanted to win aside from not wanting to be erased, you couldn’t give me an answer. If I asked you what Jiren’s motivations were in this arc, you couldn’t give me an answer. If I am questioning an important aspect of the plot (the “villain”’s main motivation) and there is no answer, then there’s your plot hole.

But I’m sure people will be asking me why villains need motivations in the first place, just like those who asked why characters need personalities.

Your misusing the term "plothole", Asura. Jiren wanted to take part in the tournament because he wanted to win the Super Dragon Balls and grant a wish that was apparently "selfish". He didn't win the TOP making any further insight into his initial wish pointless.

And, yes, you can have a good villain who doesn't have any motivation other than they are a villain because they can be.

That's practically Cell and Buu described. We wasted how long on them?

[Asura]

Jiren wanted to take part in the tournament because he wanted to win the Super Dragon Balls and grant a wish that was apparently "selfish". He didn't win the TOP making any further insight into his initial wish pointless.

Goku Black stole Goku's body because he wanted to eliminate all mortals and become a god in his new world. He didn't win in the end making any insight into the mystery behind who he is pointless.

Now do you see why introducing important plot points and then never revisiting them is flawed?

[Amir]

After thinking about it and the example you gave me about who Black was, I think you're right.

We know for a fact his wish was part of his past obsession, but now that he solved the problem, that wish isn't relevant to him, but like you said, it's a plot point that was brought up to add more on his character, and just because it's meaningless to Jiren now doesn't mean it's meaningless to the viewers as it was in important trait of Jiren's character before he changed, it's a bad thing to just bring something up and never answer it unless they plan on answering it in the future.
But it's highly unlikely they will.

So I change my mind. You're right.
I guess I was just happy Jiren changed so I didn't care about the wish anymore, but from a storytelling standpoint you're objectively right.

It ain't no plot hole though

[Lord Beerus]

Jiren wanted to take part in the tournament because he wanted to win the Super Dragon Balls and grant a wish that was apparently "selfish". He didn't win the TOP making any further insight into his initial wish pointless.

Goku Black stole Goku's body because he wanted to eliminate all mortals and become a god in his new world. He didn't win in the end making any insight into the mystery behind who he is pointless.

Now do you see why introducing important plot points and then never revisiting them is flawed?

Zamasu stole Goku's body specifically because Zamasu felt Goku was the personification of the failure of the Gods who created the universe, and by stealing Goku's body he felt as if he absolved all of the sins of the mortal and failures of the Gods into his body, as he felt that was the true duty of a God. Zamasu took Goku's body for more reasons that were tied to dramatic irony and spitefulness than actually furthering his plot to wipe out all mortals.

[Asura]

Jiren wanted to take part in the tournament because he wanted to win the Super Dragon Balls and grant a wish that was apparently "selfish". He didn't win the TOP making any further insight into his initial wish pointless.

Goku Black stole Goku's body because he wanted to eliminate all mortals and become a god in his new world. He didn't win in the end making any insight into the mystery behind who he is pointless.

Now do you see why introducing important plot points and then never revisiting them is flawed?

Zamasu stole Goku's body specifically because Zamasu felt Goku was the personification of the failure of the Gods who created the universe, and by stealing Goku's body he felt as if he absolved all of the sins of the mortal and failures of the Gods into his body, as he felt that was the true duty of a God. Zamasu took Goku's body for more reasons that were tied to dramatic irony and spitefulness than actually furthering his plot to wipe out all mortals.

I said that as a scenario if we never learned who Black was, using your logic of "he didn't win in the end so what does it matter" and applying it to Goku Black, that we never learned who he was but he died in the end so it doesn't matter.

[Lord Beerus]

Goku Black stole Goku's body because he wanted to eliminate all mortals and become a god in his new world. He didn't win in the end making any insight into the mystery behind who he is pointless.

Now do you see why introducing important plot points and then never revisiting them is flawed?

Zamasu stole Goku's body specifically because Zamasu felt Goku was the personification of the failure of the Gods who created the universe, and by stealing Goku's body he felt as if he absolved all of the sins of the mortal and failures of the Gods into his body, as he felt that was the true duty of a God. Zamasu took Goku's body for more reasons that were tied to dramatic irony and spitefulness than actually furthering his plot to wipe out all mortals.

I said that as a scenario if we never learned who Black was, using your logic of "he didn't win in the end so what does it matter" and applying it to Goku Black, that we never learned who he was but he died in the end so it doesn't matter.

Zamasu was focused on wiping out all mortals and stealing Goku's was a superficial accessory to that objective, at best. Stealing Goku's body was never a significant part of his Zero Mortals Plan in the slightest, as if Zamasu wanted to be pragmatic about wiping out all mortals, he could have swapped bodies with Zeno, or done some more homework, and swapped bodies with Jiren.

The point I'm trying to make is that drawing a comparison between Zamasu taking Goku's body and Jiren wanting to make a wish with the Super Dragon Balls, with regards to making the point of Jiren's wish not mattering in the end, doesn't work (and I'm a bit puzzled as to why you chose Goku Black as an example in particular) because the latter is a motivation that isn't driven by anything tied to the central conflict and main objective of the antagonist as Zamasu stealing Goku's body doesn't change anything how he kills mortals. And with the former, Jiren is more justified in taking part in the Tournament Of Power and driven to do what he does in the way that he does because what is at stake for that scenario is something that could legitimately benefit him.

[Asura]

Zamasu stole Goku's body specifically because Zamasu felt Goku was the personification of the failure of the Gods who created the universe, and by stealing Goku's body he felt as if he absolved all of the sins of the mortal and failures of the Gods into his body, as he felt that was the true duty of a God. Zamasu took Goku's body for more reasons that were tied to dramatic irony and spitefulness than actually furthering his plot to wipe out all mortals.

I said that as a scenario if we never learned who Black was, using your logic of "he didn't win in the end so what does it matter" and applying it to Goku Black, that we never learned who he was but he died in the end so it doesn't matter.

Zamasu was focused on wiping out all mortals and stealing Goku's was a superficial accessory to that objective, at best. Stealing Goku's body was never a significant part of his Zero Mortals Plan in the slightest, as if Zamasu wanted to be pragmatic about wiping out all mortals, he could have swapped bodies with Zeno, or done some more homework, and swapped bodies with Jiren.

The point I'm trying to make is that drawing a comparison between Zamasu taking Goku's body and Jiren wanting to make a wish with the Super Dragon Balls, with regards to making the point of Jiren's wish not mattering in the end, doesn't work (and I'm a bit puzzled as to why you chose Goku Black as an example in particular) because the latter is a motivation that isn't driven by anything tied to the central conflict and main objective of the antagonist as Zamasu stealing Goku's body doesn't change anything how he kills mortals. And with the former, Jiren is more justified in taking part in the Tournament Of Power and driven to do what he does in the way that he does because what is at stake for that scenario is something that could legitimately benefit him.

My point was that one of the main plot points of the Future Trunks arc was trying to find out the mystery behind Goku Black and who he really was. If the arc ended without us ever finding out who he was, would you be saying it didn't matter anyway since Black died in the end and the "Zero Mortals Plan" failed?

The reason why I'm picking Goku Black as an example is because he was set up as a character with a mystery, and one of the key plot points that was brought up in the arc was finding out who Goku Black really was. Just like Jiren, he's set up as a character of mystery and one of the key plot points that was brought up was his wish. If you say that it doesn't matter what Jiren's wish was since he lost in the end and all was resolved anyway, then you should apply that same logic to Goku Black in saying it doesn't matter who he was (if he was never revealed to be Zamasu) because he died in the end and the arc was resolved anyway.

After thinking about it and the example you gave me about who Black was, I think you're right.

We know for a fact his wish was part of his past obsession, but now that he solved the problem, that wish isn't relevant to him, but like you said, it's a plot point that was brought up to add more on his character, and just because it's meaningless to Jiren now doesn't mean it's meaningless to the viewers as it was in important trait of Jiren's character before he changed, it's a bad thing to just bring something up and never answer it unless they plan on answering it in the future.
But it's highly unlikely they will.

So I change my mind. You're right.
I guess I was just happy Jiren changed so I didn't care about the wish anymore, but from a storytelling standpoint you're objectively right.

It ain't no plot hole though

I still think it's a plot hole, but I'm glad you were able to change your mind on the subject by thinking about the Black example. Sometimes you just need to put things in a different perspective to see if they really work.

[Amir]

I said that as a scenario if we never learned who Black was, using your logic of "he didn't win in the end so what does it matter" and applying it to Goku Black, that we never learned who he was but he died in the end so it doesn't matter.

Zamasu was focused on wiping out all mortals and stealing Goku's was a superficial accessory to that objective, at best. Stealing Goku's body was never a significant part of his Zero Mortals Plan in the slightest, as if Zamasu wanted to be pragmatic about wiping out all mortals, he could have swapped bodies with Zeno, or done some more homework, and swapped bodies with Jiren.

The point I'm trying to make is that drawing a comparison between Zamasu taking Goku's body and Jiren wanting to make a wish with the Super Dragon Balls, with regards to making the point of Jiren's wish not mattering in the end, doesn't work (and I'm a bit puzzled as to why you chose Goku Black as an example in particular) because the latter is a motivation that isn't driven by anything tied to the central conflict and main objective of the antagonist as Zamasu stealing Goku's body doesn't change anything how he kills mortals. And with the former, Jiren is more justified in taking part in the Tournament Of Power and driven to do what he does in the way that he does because what is at stake for that scenario is something that could legitimately benefit him.

My point was that one of the main plot points of the Future Trunks arc was trying to find out the mystery behind Goku Black and who he really was. If the arc ended without us ever finding out who he was, would you be saying it didn't matter anyway since Black died in the end and the "Zero Mortals Plan" failed?

The reason why I'm picking Goku Black as an example is because he was set up as a character with a mystery, and one of the key plot points that was brought up in the arc was finding out who Goku Black really was. Just like Jiren, he's set up as a character of mystery and one of the key plot points that was brought up was his wish. If you say that it doesn't matter what Jiren's wish was since he lost in the end and all was resolved anyway, then you should apply that same logic to Goku Black in saying it doesn't matter who he was (if he was never revealed to be Zamasu) because he died in the end and the arc was resolved anyway.

After thinking about it and the example you gave me about who Black was, I think you're right.

We know for a fact his wish was part of his past obsession, but now that he solved the problem, that wish isn't relevant to him, but like you said, it's a plot point that was brought up to add more on his character, and just because it's meaningless to Jiren now doesn't mean it's meaningless to the viewers as it was in important trait of Jiren's character before he changed, it's a bad thing to just bring something up and never answer it unless they plan on answering it in the future.
But it's highly unlikely they will.

So I change my mind. You're right.
I guess I was just happy Jiren changed so I didn't care about the wish anymore, but from a storytelling standpoint you're objectively right.

It ain't no plot hole though

I still think it's a plot hole, but I'm glad you were able to change your mind on the subject by thinking about the Black example. Sometimes you just need to put things in a different perspective to see if they really work.

A plot hole is more like a contradiction to a previously established plot point. Cell beung able to regenerate his head is a plit hole. Here it's just weak writing since they got us invested in a plot point, but then dropped it without an answer just because it didn't matter to the character itself anymore.

[SonReggie]

I think the fact that it was made clear that there was really only one wish that could be chosen renders any other choice fairly irrelevant.

I mean, yeah - might have been mildly interesting to know what Jiren might have wished for - but it would never have been granted anyway.

[MrBlackFox]

Lol, and to think that if Jiren had won, everything could have been erased

[Avenant]

It's absolutely laughable at this point how bad Super's writing is. I can't believe they literally forgot about the antagonist's motivation for wanting to win the tournament. What was his wish? It was never revealed! It's kept a hush hush secret in both the manga and the anime, yet the anime is now finished and we have no idea what his wish would have been. Was it to resurrect his family and his master? When 17 seems to suggest that Jiren wants to wish to make things like they were again, Jiren just says "Ridiculous" with a completely straight face, and then goes on to talk about the whole "Strength is absolute" deal. So given his reaction it seems to me that wasn't his wish?

Just because you didn't get what you wanted doesn't mean the writing is bad. Even though I am curious about his wish, knowing it is in no way necessary to the plot. None of the other characters seemed to be curious either, as they had much bigger things to worry about anyway.

It's fascinating to me how brittle these arguments are against Super's writing when they're so derivative of personal opinions.

Jirens wish was pointless.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

I should rephrase this, the ideal would be for Jiren to lose but get the wish. He’s then given the option to get his wish and live in universe 7 or wish the universes back and makes the decision himself.

Why should Jiren get the wish even though he lost?

I think in manga the strongest character will get the wish,unless I am misremembering.

If Jiren is out he's not gonna get the wish anyway 'cuz he is out, regardless of he is the "strongest". Otherwise the entire tournament is pointless, if something like the events of the special happen in the manga what is the point of the tournament continuing if Jiren's gonna gets the wish regardless?. Whoever is left on the stage is who'll get the wish what happened in the anime and what will happen in the manga. By logic alone Jiren cannot be the "strongest" anyway if he is ko'd.

[Kenneth La Torre]

You guys are acting as if jiren wont be relavent anymore. I'm certain there will be more to cone from him, especially the way he was written in 131. I'm sure his wish will come up in the near future

[MrBlackFox]

You guys are acting as if jiren wont be relavent anymore. I'm certain there will be more to cone from him, especially the way he was written in 131. I'm sure his wish will come up in the near future

I expect at least one Pikkon like movie moment for him, maybe Goku and Z fighters will cooperate to take down a common deadly menace

[Hawk9211]

Why should Jiren get the wish even though he lost?

I think in manga the strongest character will get the wish,unless I am misremembering.

If Jiren is out he's not gonna get the wish anyway 'cuz he is out, regardless of he is the "strongest". Otherwise the entire tournament is pointless, if something like the events of the special happen in the manga what is the point of the tournament continuing if Jiren's gonna gets the wish regardless?. Whoever is left on the stage is who'll get the wish what happened in the anime and what will happen in the manga. By logic alone Jiren cannot be the "strongest" anyway if he is ko'd.

Manga has been changing the elimination order of opponents and there is always a slight chance that manga or anime will deviate from the major plot lines.

[JazzMazz]

I feel like you need to handle these things on a case by case basis.

Sometimes, being pedantic about details is important, for example learning exactly who Black is necessary to provide pay-off to the mystery as well as properly set up his motivations.

However, learning Jiren's wish isn't even remotely the same, especially in the anime, where they didn't actually bother to set up any foreshadowing for the wish. In the anime, we learn about Jiren's personality and background and who is as a person and what motivates him as a character, which kind of already suggests the nature of his wish. The specifics of his wish are irrelevant, since we already know the general purpose and meaning, we've already received that pay-off in his backstory and the revelation of what kind of character he is.