Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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ZombieVito
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:29 pm

JazzMazz wrote: I would say his low Super Saiyan tier at best, he was no match for Frost, much less SS1 Goku. Hell, even in the tournament, they've been showing that he might only be in the same league as the base form Saiyans.

I would say at best, he would be in similar tier to regular fat buu, whose been shown to be roughly in the same league as the base form Saiyans, or even greater than base form Saiyans.

His definitely still in Z levels of power.
Nope.

He strangled a SS2 Gohan who fought on par with Goku, who's base is stronger than SS3 Gotenks.

He's Makankosappo can also kill Blue tier fighters.
Analytical Delusion wrote:Who would you guys say are the top 10 unfused mortals as of the end of Super?
Let's see:

Goku
Jiren
Vegeta
Toppo
Freeza
Future Trunks
Gohan
Hit
17
Pirina

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by larzooma » Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:52 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: I would say his low Super Saiyan tier at best, he was no match for Frost, much less SS1 Goku. Hell, even in the tournament, they've been showing that he might only be in the same league as the base form Saiyans.

I would say at best, he would be in similar tier to regular fat buu, whose been shown to be roughly in the same league as the base form Saiyans, or even greater than base form Saiyans.

His definitely still in Z levels of power.
Nope.

He strangled a SS2 Gohan who fought on par with Goku, who's base is stronger than SS3 Gotenks.

He's Makankosappo can also kill Blue tier fighters.
Analytical Delusion wrote:Who would you guys say are the top 10 unfused mortals as of the end of Super?
Let's see:

Goku
Jiren
Vegeta
Toppo
Freeza
Future Trunks
Gohan
Hit
17
Pirina
He would easily defeat anyone from Z, and I would probably place him around pre-ToP SSJ3 Goku level. He showed he could easily defeat a high level SSJ2 character, and on some level, hold is own with Ultimate Gohan for an extended training period without the need for a sensu before the 2 vs 2 in 90. Piccolo ranks as one of the to top fighters when it comes to Ki control, and it's hard to tell how strong he truly is with all of his power unleashed. Think about the ease at which he raised his power enough to compete with SSJ2 Gohan in 88? He's either really gained an impressive amount of control over his ki to raise and suppress it considerably with ease, or it wasn't a big jump for him to reach that level.

Now, I started the ToP as a firm believer Gohan was not only SSJB level, but able to compete with a fully powered SSJB Goku. Plus, Goku and Vegeta can be used as examples on how the Sayians made considerable gains as the tournament progressed. Gohan could be placed in that category, although he didn't take the level of punishment and come back the way his father and Vegeta. There's no way he's above Hit though. Despite an early departure, he did so attempting to sacrifice himself to take out the biggest threat. It has no bearing on his power compared to other characters, and if the ending was any indication, they may not be able to reach those ToP levels now that the pressure created by the ToP is gone. Not to mention, if you're going to place Gohan up that high, then you have to include 17 close behind or possibly even above. He went fist to fist with a very powered up Jiren, while only taking some shirt damage. He proved that the level he held back when sparring with Goku was significant, and despite showing he was at least low level SSJB at the start, he could have pushed Goku much further, if he desired.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:00 pm

Analytical Delusion wrote:Who would you guys say are the top 10 unfused mortals as of the end of Super?
Assuming Goku will tap into Ultra Instinct again when pushed to his absolute limit:

1. Goku
2. Jiren
3. Vegeta
4. Toppo
5. Frieza
6. Dyspo
7. Goku Black
8. Trunks
9. Hit
10. Unsure -- either Gohan, 17, or Kale

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by larzooma » Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:07 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
Analytical Delusion wrote:Who would you guys say are the top 10 unfused mortals as of the end of Super?
Assuming Goku will tap into Ultra Instinct again when pushed to his absolute limit:

1. Goku
2. Jiren
3. Vegeta
4. Toppo
5. Frieza
6. Dyspo
7. Goku Black
8. Trunks
9. Hit
10. Unsure -- either Gohan, 17, or Kale
I'm going to bracket 8 because it's all based on the assumption he can regularly achieve that form, which we never really get to see as an established fact. In regards to the last 3, I would have to place 17 above Gohan, given his encounters with a very high powered Jiren. He went fist for fist with Jiren, with the only damage happening to his shirt. He would have had to be at an extremely high level to even hold his own momentarily at that point. Gohan would fall behind 17, but by how much, I'm not sure. He definitely proved himself against some of the highest level fighters.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:24 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: I would say his low Super Saiyan tier at best, he was no match for Frost, much less SS1 Goku. Hell, even in the tournament, they've been showing that he might only be in the same league as the base form Saiyans.

I would say at best, he would be in similar tier to regular fat buu, whose been shown to be roughly in the same league as the base form Saiyans, or even greater than base form Saiyans.

His definitely still in Z levels of power.
Nope.

He strangled a SS2 Gohan who fought on par with Goku, who's base is stronger than SS3 Gotenks.

He's Makankosappo can also kill Blue tier fighters.
Analytical Delusion wrote:Who would you guys say are the top 10 unfused mortals as of the end of Super?
Let's see:

Goku
Jiren
Vegeta
Toppo
Freeza
Future Trunks
Gohan
Hit
17
Pirina
Have you guys heard of what an outlier is?

Because thats exactly what things like copy Vegeta beating SS3 Gotenks, or base Goku and final form Freeza being godlike in comparison to everyone else are. They're outliers, because they aren't consistently shown to possess that level of strength, and it makes sense considering how everyone seems to be able to compete against the base saiyans after those arcs.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:31 pm

JazzMazz wrote: Because thats exactly what things like copy Vegeta beating SS3 Gotenks, or base Goku and final form Freeza being godlike in comparison to everyone else are. They're outliers, because they aren't consistently shown to possess that level of strength, and it makes sense considering how everyone seems to be able to compete against the base saiyans after those arcs.
Most people competing against Base saiyans doesn't negate "base Saiyans > Gotenks".
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:39 pm

Why is Dyspo above Hit? he did start with the upperhand but was later demolished by Hit and had to escape, as recommended by that little shit of a Pride Trooper or Toppo, can't recall who

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:43 pm

Koitsukai wrote:Why is Dyspo above Hit? he did start with the upperhand but was later demolished by Hit and had to escape, as recommended by that little shit of a Pride Trooper or Toppo, can't recall who
Probably because Dyspo has that Superspeed mode.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:56 pm

Helios518 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: Because thats exactly what things like copy Vegeta beating SS3 Gotenks, or base Goku and final form Freeza being godlike in comparison to everyone else are. They're outliers, because they aren't consistently shown to possess that level of strength, and it makes sense considering how everyone seems to be able to compete against the base saiyans after those arcs.
Most people competing against Base saiyans doesn't negate "base Saiyans > Gotenks".
Um yeah. When a Gohan that is weaker than usual is capable of holding his own against Super Saiyan Goku, even though he shouldn't even be remotely similar to each other(there is more stuff, but I think this is the most obvious example to me).

Stuff like that, and other stuff, makes me believe that the strongest feats for Base Goku are outliers to how people actually write his strength, and shouldn't be considered when usually considering the context of the overall narrative. I think this because otherwise people just overboard with the level of mental gymnastics they perform to justify some characters strength.

That would be like saying because Batman was able to hurt the Spectre(the %@$#ing wrath of God), than that must mean Batman is a consistent abstract level fighter. Its dumb.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Puaru » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:05 pm

larzooma wrote:
Marlowe89 wrote:Gohan would fall behind 17, but by how much, I'm not sure. He definitely proved himself against some of the highest level fighters.
No he didn't, not even once.

He was HELPLESS against Toppo, while 17 and Frieza could at least do damage to him.

He did beat up Dyspo but that doesn't matter since Dyspo is NOT one of the strongest fighters at all, he is just fast. They made a point several times that his power is actually of no danger to truly strong characters like Hit and Frieza, and that without his speed he wouldn't be a problem to them.

The strenght of Koichirator or whaveter his name is (the fused robot) cannot be measured against any truly strong character since the only ones he had any contact with were Goku and Vegeta when they WERE HOLDING BACK in order to save their strenght and so allowed Gohan to finnish the guy of. This was very clearly shown when the spectators were at first amazed that robot guy was seemingly able to push back a combined attack from Goku and Vegeta, but then were like "oh so THAT'S whay that was!" when it truned out that Goku and Vegeta never intended to use their full stenght against him in the first place.

Gohan never did any damage at all to any god-level fighter during the entire tournament, which seems to indicate that Gohan is a weak when compared to his actually strong teammates. 17 is definitely much much stronger than Gohan. The ultimate proof is that a full-powered kamehameha from Gohan did shit against Toppo while 17 managed to damage both Toppo and even Jiren.

Gohan is weak and he sucks.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:20 pm

JazzMazz wrote: Um yeah. When a Gohan that is weaker than usual is capable of holding his own against Super Saiyan Goku, even though he shouldn't even be remotely similar to each other(there is more stuff, but I think this is the most obvious example to me).
You're following one instance as oppose to three instances showing the contrary? Please tell me of the other instances your talking about.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:50 pm

JazzMazz wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:
PFM18 wrote:How strong do you guys think Piccolo is in the Tournament of Power? I am rather puzzled as far as the strength in general. I see him as the 6th strongest fighter on the team (behind 17,Goku,Vegeta,Gohan and Freeza) but where does he stand in the rest of the series? Stronger than Super Buu? He was made out to be much weaker than Super Buu during the ROF arc and it is just a matter of how much stronger he got since then
SS2 tier.

He solos the entirety of Z.
I would say his low Super Saiyan tier at best, he was no match for Frost, much less SS1 Goku. Hell, even in the tournament, they've been showing that he might only be in the same league as the base form Saiyans.

I would say at best, he would be in similar tier to regular fat buu, whose been shown to be roughly in the same league as the base form Saiyans, or even greater than base form Saiyans.

His definitely still in Z levels of power.
Fat buu was only roughly in the same league as the base Saiyans upon training becoming thin and having a huhe power boost. I would place him at like Buu saga fat Buu at the most as far as I can tell.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:51 pm

Helios518 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: Um yeah. When a Gohan that is weaker than usual is capable of holding his own against Super Saiyan Goku, even though he shouldn't even be remotely similar to each other(there is more stuff, but I think this is the most obvious example to me).
You're following one instance as oppose to three instances showing the contrary? Please tell me of the other instances your talking about.
Well, if Piccolo has grown so much stronger, than how was his strongest attack only just barely able to faze base Goku, when according to your logic, he should be in the same league as Super Saiyan 2 Goku, which was something that Ultimate Gohan was actually shown to be. That entire part of the story was just overly convoluted unless you take some of the events that happen in the context of the story as outliers.

Or how base Gohan and Piccolo are shown to be on a similar level of power, hell, I'd even say with Gohan being slightly ahead in terms of raw power if Piccolo's showing against the universe 6 Nameks was anything to go off.

Like how Kuririn was suddenly able to push back Goku in his base form. Are you suggesting that Kuririn got so powerful that he could knock back an opponent, which you consider to be on the same level as someone like Super-Buu, even though at his peak he couldn't even budge regular perfect Cell.

Its this sort of thing which is consistently shown throughout that irks me a lot.

If you were to ask me, the base form Saiyans are still firmly in the buu arc levels of power. I think how Goku and vegeta face off with opponents like Basil, who are vastly weaker than Majin Buu, who had already been weakened, kind of proves that point, far more than a one off occassion where SS3 Gotenks is fodderized.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:01 pm

JazzMazz wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: I would say his low Super Saiyan tier at best, he was no match for Frost, much less SS1 Goku. Hell, even in the tournament, they've been showing that he might only be in the same league as the base form Saiyans.

I would say at best, he would be in similar tier to regular fat buu, whose been shown to be roughly in the same league as the base form Saiyans, or even greater than base form Saiyans.

His definitely still in Z levels of power.
Nope.

He strangled a SS2 Gohan who fought on par with Goku, who's base is stronger than SS3 Gotenks.

He's Makankosappo can also kill Blue tier fighters.
Analytical Delusion wrote:Who would you guys say are the top 10 unfused mortals as of the end of Super?
Let's see:

Goku
Jiren
Vegeta
Toppo
Freeza
Future Trunks
Gohan
Hit
17
Pirina
Have you guys heard of what an outlier is?

Because thats exactly what things like copy Vegeta beating SS3 Gotenks, or base Goku and final form Freeza being godlike in comparison to everyone else are. They're outliers, because they aren't consistently shown to possess that level of strength, and it makes sense considering how everyone seems to be able to compete against the base saiyans after those arcs.
If Vegeta in base couldnt one shot Ssj3 Gotenks that would be a HUGE inconsistency. Like Beerus said Golu "made that power his own" when he lost SSG and so his normal super saiyan was roughly the same level and probably stronger than Super Saiyan God. Tagoma was said to be as strong as Ultimate Gohan from the buu saga, 1st form freeza had to have been atleast as strong and then upon using his final form he became ATLEAST 100x stronger from what we saw on Namek. (530k to 60M in his 50% final form state) and then Goku still defeated this Freeza with utmost ease. And then in the Universe 6 arc Goku makes Hit bleed with a hit in his base form. It is most definitely not an outlier. If Piccolo is on par with the current base saiyans that makes him stronger than everybody in Z except MAYBE super saiyan Vegetto. (But probably not)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:06 pm

JazzMazz wrote:
Helios518 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: Um yeah. When a Gohan that is weaker than usual is capable of holding his own against Super Saiyan Goku, even though he shouldn't even be remotely similar to each other(there is more stuff, but I think this is the most obvious example to me).
You're following one instance as oppose to three instances showing the contrary? Please tell me of the other instances your talking about.

1. Well, if Piccolo has grown so much stronger, than how was his strongest attack only just barely able to faze base Goku, when according to your logic, he should be in the same league as Super Saiyan 2 Goku, which was something that Ultimate Gohan was actually shown to be. That entire part of the story was just overly convoluted unless you take some of the events that happen in the context of the story as outliers.

2. how base Gohan and Piccolo are shown to be on a similar level of power, hell, I'd even say with Gohan being slightly ahead in terms of raw power if Piccolo's showing against the universe 6 Nameks was anything to go off.

3. Like how Kuririn was suddenly able to push back Goku in his base form.Are you suggesting that Kuririn got so powerful that he could knock back an opponent, which you consider to be on the same level as someone like Super-Buu, even though at his peak he couldn't even budge regular perfect Cell.

Its this sort of thing which is consistently shown throughout that irks me a lot.

If you were to ask me, the base form Saiyans are still firmly in the buu arc levels of power. I think how Goku and vegeta face off with opponents like Basil, who are vastly weaker than Majin Buu, who had already been weakened, kind of proves that point, far more than a one off occassion where SS3 Gotenks is fodderized.
1. Oh I don't believe he's on par with SSJ2 Goku like the other. But Piccolo not phasing base Goku is actually supportstowards "Base Goku > Gotenks".

2. Base Gohan = Ultimate Gohan. That's what Ultimate is. So of course, Gohan is on par with Piccolo at this point.

3. Kuririn pushing back Base Goku at all, regardless if Goku is above Gotenks or still Boo Arc base, is odd. That's more of problem with Kuririn moreso than Base Saiyans.
Last edited by Helios518 on Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:08 pm

The way I see it, my personal approach of "pure power" and "combat flow" remains true and sums up many otherwise inconsistencies.

"Pure power" is the ability to tank attacks and instantly disable opponents with a few strikes if you have enough of a power advantage over them. However, doing this requires an immense power level over your opponent and leaves you much more vulnerable to being taken off-guard; trying to fight this way also fails if your opponent is stronger than you.

"Combat flow" is more generalized fighting that forgoes tanking and overpowering and places greater emphasis on movement and precision. This means that many different fighters of different levels of strength can engage one another at closer levels, but it also means that the actual rules of martial arts are more important, meaning that you can more easily take down and/or defend against an opponent with proper reading of the situation.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:07 pm

JazzMazz wrote:Well, if Piccolo has grown so much stronger, than how was his strongest attack only just barely able to faze base Goku, when according to your logic, he should be in the same league as Super Saiyan 2 Goku, which was something that Ultimate Gohan was actually shown to be. That entire part of the story was just overly convoluted unless you take some of the events that happen in the context of the story as outliers.

Or how base Gohan and Piccolo are shown to be on a similar level of power, hell, I'd even say with Gohan being slightly ahead in terms of raw power if Piccolo's showing against the universe 6 Nameks was anything to go off.

Like how Kuririn was suddenly able to push back Goku in his base form. Are you suggesting that Kuririn got so powerful that he could knock back an opponent, which you consider to be on the same level as someone like Super-Buu, even though at his peak he couldn't even budge regular perfect Cell.

Its this sort of thing which is consistently shown throughout that irks me a lot.

If you were to ask me, the base form Saiyans are still firmly in the buu arc levels of power. I think how Goku and vegeta face off with opponents like Basil, who are vastly weaker than Majin Buu, who had already been weakened, kind of proves that point, far more than a one off occassion where SS3 Gotenks is fodderized.
If a cut in half dying Babidi can survive Vegeta's suicide explosion, then I don't see an issue with a healthy Goku doing that against Piccolo. Gohan was not at full power while fighting SS2 Goku.

The pre 118 Namek fight can't be used for anything since they weren't fighting seriously. Goku was also obviously holding back against Kuririn.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:05 pm

Well, DBS is over so I'll make my ranking

1- Zen'oh / Future Zen'oh
2- Daishinkan
3- Angels
4- MUI Goku
5- Jiren
6- SSB Vegetto / Hakaishins / UI Omen Goku / Vegeta (after power up in EP 126) / Toppo
7- Merged Zamasu
8 - SSJ2 Kefla
9 - Goku SSB KK x20 / Vegeta SSB Evolution (initial)
10 - Aniraza
11 - SSJ Kefla
12 - Golden Freeza / SSB Goku / SSB Vegeta / Toppo (base) / Dyspo (Maximum light speed mode)
13- SSJ Rosé Black
14 - SSJ Rage Trunks
15 - Hitto
16 - SSG Goku
17 - Ultimate Gohan / Android 17 / SSJ Berserker Kale (dominated)
18 - Saonel / Pirina
19 - Koichiarator
20 - Piccolo / SSJ2 Caulifla / SSJ2 Kyabe / SSJ2 Future Trunks
21 - Zamasu
22 - Magetta
23 - Monna
24 - Final Form Freeza
25 - Frost

Some notes:

- I didn't necessarily put SSB Evolution Vegeta and ''Hakaishin mode Toppo'' on the same level as the Hakaishins and UI Omen Goku, it was just to make it clear that the two are in the same tier as they are, that is, they are comparable to them.

- I don't see Ultimate Gohan and android 17 at the same level as the SSG, at most above the Goku SSJ3.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by larzooma » Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:32 pm

Puaru wrote:
larzooma wrote:
Marlowe89 wrote:Gohan would fall behind 17, but by how much, I'm not sure. He definitely proved himself against some of the highest level fighters.
No he didn't, not even once.

He was HELPLESS against Toppo, while 17 and Frieza could at least do damage to him.

He did beat up Dyspo but that doesn't matter since Dyspo is NOT one of the strongest fighters at all, he is just fast. They made a point several times that his power is actually of no danger to truly strong characters like Hit and Frieza, and that without his speed he wouldn't be a problem to them.

The strenght of Koichirator or whaveter his name is (the fused robot) cannot be measured against any truly strong character since the only ones he had any contact with were Goku and Vegeta when they WERE HOLDING BACK in order to save their strenght and so allowed Gohan to finnish the guy of. This was very clearly shown when the spectators were at first amazed that robot guy was seemingly able to push back a combined attack from Goku and Vegeta, but then were like "oh so THAT'S whay that was!" when it truned out that Goku and Vegeta never intended to use their full stenght against him in the first place.

Gohan never did any damage at all to any god-level fighter during the entire tournament, which seems to indicate that Gohan is a weak when compared to his actually strong teammates. 17 is definitely much much stronger than Gohan. The ultimate proof is that a full-powered kamehameha from Gohan did shit against Toppo while 17 managed to damage both Toppo and even Jiren.

Gohan is weak and he sucks.
First, I meant 17 proved himself not Gohan. Despite the mistake, I'll still offer a bit of a defense for them both.

Did you fail to remember a powered up Jiren going fist to fist with 17, which he held for a decent amount of time, only taking damage to his uniform? He took some brutal hits by Jiren, which would obliterate almost everyone except for the highest tier mortals. He most definitely proved he's SSJB level, if not a bit beyond. When he joined with Goku and Vegeta against Jiren, the former two weren't in base SSJB. The former used KKx20 the whole time, while the latter used an even higher form of SSJB. Maybe 17 didn't showcase the raw power they may have during the fight, but he kept up with the most elite and survived damage only an SSJB level character could take without severe damage.

Gohan faced off against two very high level Namekians with super regeneration and a wide variety of impressive abilities. He also went up against a much stronger Dyspo than when he fought hit. Frieza's assist definitely helped, but in terms of power he could compete.

What are you talking about with the Kamehameha against Toppo? The intent was to push him from the ring, while 17 contained him in the bubble. Gohan stopped when Toppo twisted 17's arm causing him to drop the barrier. He didn't want to harm his teammate. Gohan entered the tournament on par with a fully powered SSJB Goku, and like the other Sayians, made gains as the challenges he faced pushed him to greater heights of power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:21 pm

Any reason why people have Blue Goku and Vegeta over Black?

He was the strongest unfused character as confirmed by E65 and Goku and Vegeta barely trained after the arc. They should be equal at best.

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