Jiren's Wish

[Asura]

I feel like you need to handle these things on a case by case basis.

Sometimes, being pedantic about details is important, for example learning exactly who Black is necessary to provide pay-off to the mystery as well as properly set up his motivations.

However, learning Jiren's wish isn't even remotely the same, especially in the anime, where they didn't actually bother to set up any foreshadowing for the wish. In the anime, we learn about Jiren's personality and background and who is as a person and what motivates him as a character, which kind of already suggests the nature of his wish. The specifics of his wish are irrelevant, since we already know the general purpose and meaning, we've already received that pay-off in his backstory and the revelation of what kind of character he is.

How do you figure that there was no foreshadowing in the anime about his wish? During the special Toppo says that Jiren needs to win to get his wish from the Super Dragon Balls. In 122, Jiren says he seeks something “beyond strength”. It’s never elaborated upon what that’s supposed to mean, but it’s yet another hint as to why Jiren wants a wish from the Dragon Balls.This is only further elaborated upon in the episode where 17 tries and guesses what his wish is in 127, but ultimately Jiren denies that his wish has to do with reviving his fallen comrades and family. If you think you know what the wish would have been then please, enlighten me, because 17 already guessed what should be the most obvious wish and Jiren denies it with a straight face.

It's absolutely laughable at this point how bad Super's writing is. I can't believe they literally forgot about the antagonist's motivation for wanting to win the tournament. What was his wish? It was never revealed! It's kept a hush hush secret in both the manga and the anime, yet the anime is now finished and we have no idea what his wish would have been. Was it to resurrect his family and his master? When 17 seems to suggest that Jiren wants to wish to make things like they were again, Jiren just says "Ridiculous" with a completely straight face, and then goes on to talk about the whole "Strength is absolute" deal. So given his reaction it seems to me that wasn't his wish?

Just because you didn't get what you wanted doesn't mean the writing is bad. Even though I am curious about his wish, knowing it is in no way necessary to the plot. None of the other characters seemed to be curious either, as they had much bigger things to worry about anyway.

It's fascinating to me how brittle these arguments are against Super's writing when they're so derivative of personal opinions.

Jirens wish was pointless.

Yeah okay, I guess it’s my fault then because I wanted a plot point that was brought up to be resolved. Silly me, guess I’m just entitled.

[Avenant]

I feel like you need to handle these things on a case by case basis.

Sometimes, being pedantic about details is important, for example learning exactly who Black is necessary to provide pay-off to the mystery as well as properly set up his motivations.

However, learning Jiren's wish isn't even remotely the same, especially in the anime, where they didn't actually bother to set up any foreshadowing for the wish. In the anime, we learn about Jiren's personality and background and who is as a person and what motivates him as a character, which kind of already suggests the nature of his wish. The specifics of his wish are irrelevant, since we already know the general purpose and meaning, we've already received that pay-off in his backstory and the revelation of what kind of character he is.

How do you figure that there was no foreshadowing in the anime about his wish? During the special Toppo says that Jiren needs to win to get his wish from the Super Dragon Balls. In 122, Jiren says he seeks something “beyond strength”. It’s never elaborated upon what that’s supposed to mean, but it’s yet another hint as to why Jiren wants a wish from the Dragon Balls.This is only further elaborated upon in the episode where 17 tries and guesses what his wish is in 127, but ultimately Jiren denies that his wish has to do with reviving his fallen comrades and family. If you think you know what the wish would have been then please, enlighten me, because 17 already guessed what should be the most obvious wish and Jiren denies it with a straight face.

It's absolutely laughable at this point how bad Super's writing is. I can't believe they literally forgot about the antagonist's motivation for wanting to win the tournament. What was his wish? It was never revealed! It's kept a hush hush secret in both the manga and the anime, yet the anime is now finished and we have no idea what his wish would have been. Was it to resurrect his family and his master? When 17 seems to suggest that Jiren wants to wish to make things like they were again, Jiren just says "Ridiculous" with a completely straight face, and then goes on to talk about the whole "Strength is absolute" deal. So given his reaction it seems to me that wasn't his wish?

Just because you didn't get what you wanted doesn't mean the writing is bad. Even though I am curious about his wish, knowing it is in no way necessary to the plot. None of the other characters seemed to be curious either, as they had much bigger things to worry about anyway.

It's fascinating to me how brittle these arguments are against Super's writing when they're so derivative of personal opinions.

Jirens wish was pointless.

Yeah okay, I guess it’s my fault then because I wanted a plot point that was brought up to be resolved. Silly me, guess I’m just entitled.

I'm not saying you're entitled. I just think it's absurd to call supers writing "laughable" because we didn't find out what an inconsequential wish would have been.

[Asura]

I feel like you need to handle these things on a case by case basis.

Sometimes, being pedantic about details is important, for example learning exactly who Black is necessary to provide pay-off to the mystery as well as properly set up his motivations.

However, learning Jiren's wish isn't even remotely the same, especially in the anime, where they didn't actually bother to set up any foreshadowing for the wish. In the anime, we learn about Jiren's personality and background and who is as a person and what motivates him as a character, which kind of already suggests the nature of his wish. The specifics of his wish are irrelevant, since we already know the general purpose and meaning, we've already received that pay-off in his backstory and the revelation of what kind of character he is.

How do you figure that there was no foreshadowing in the anime about his wish? During the special Toppo says that Jiren needs to win to get his wish from the Super Dragon Balls. In 122, Jiren says he seeks something “beyond strength”. It’s never elaborated upon what that’s supposed to mean, but it’s yet another hint as to why Jiren wants a wish from the Dragon Balls.This is only further elaborated upon in the episode where 17 tries and guesses what his wish is in 127, but ultimately Jiren denies that his wish has to do with reviving his fallen comrades and family. If you think you know what the wish would have been then please, enlighten me, because 17 already guessed what should be the most obvious wish and Jiren denies it with a straight face.

Just because you didn't get what you wanted doesn't mean the writing is bad. Even though I am curious about his wish, knowing it is in no way necessary to the plot. None of the other characters seemed to be curious either, as they had much bigger things to worry about anyway.

It's fascinating to me how brittle these arguments are against Super's writing when they're so derivative of personal opinions.

Jirens wish was pointless.

Yeah okay, I guess it’s my fault then because I wanted a plot point that was brought up to be resolved. Silly me, guess I’m just entitled.

I'm not saying you're entitled. I just think it's absurd to call supers writing "laughable" because we didn't find out what an inconsequential wish would have been.

Yeah, an "inconsequential wish" from the MAIN ANTAGONIST of the arc...

[JazzMazz]

I feel like you need to handle these things on a case by case basis.

Sometimes, being pedantic about details is important, for example learning exactly who Black is necessary to provide pay-off to the mystery as well as properly set up his motivations.

However, learning Jiren's wish isn't even remotely the same, especially in the anime, where they didn't actually bother to set up any foreshadowing for the wish. In the anime, we learn about Jiren's personality and background and who is as a person and what motivates him as a character, which kind of already suggests the nature of his wish. The specifics of his wish are irrelevant, since we already know the general purpose and meaning, we've already received that pay-off in his backstory and the revelation of what kind of character he is.

How do you figure that there was no foreshadowing in the anime about his wish? During the special Toppo says that Jiren needs to win to get his wish from the Super Dragon Balls. In 122, Jiren says he seeks something “beyond strength”. It’s never elaborated upon what that’s supposed to mean, but it’s yet another hint as to why Jiren wants a wish from the Dragon Balls.This is only further elaborated upon in the episode where 17 tries and guesses what his wish is in 127, but ultimately Jiren denies that his wish has to do with reviving his fallen comrades and family. If you think you know what the wish would have been then please, enlighten me, because 17 already guessed what should be the most obvious wish and Jiren denies it with a straight face.

It's absolutely laughable at this point how bad Super's writing is. I can't believe they literally forgot about the antagonist's motivation for wanting to win the tournament. What was his wish? It was never revealed! It's kept a hush hush secret in both the manga and the anime, yet the anime is now finished and we have no idea what his wish would have been. Was it to resurrect his family and his master? When 17 seems to suggest that Jiren wants to wish to make things like they were again, Jiren just says "Ridiculous" with a completely straight face, and then goes on to talk about the whole "Strength is absolute" deal. So given his reaction it seems to me that wasn't his wish?

Just because you didn't get what you wanted doesn't mean the writing is bad. Even though I am curious about his wish, knowing it is in no way necessary to the plot. None of the other characters seemed to be curious either, as they had much bigger things to worry about anyway.

It's fascinating to me how brittle these arguments are against Super's writing when they're so derivative of personal opinions.

Jirens wish was pointless.

Yeah okay, I guess it’s my fault then because I wanted a plot point that was brought up to be resolved. Silly me, guess I’m just entitled.

I'm saying, that they didn't need to reveal the specific details for the wish for the plot point to have a pay-off.

Personally, I thought his wish was about removing the void that his past left in him, or becoming the ultimate justice, either way, it didn't matter. It was a selfish wish that was supposed to remedy and gratify his past experiences.

[Avenant]

Yeah, an "inconsequential wish" from the MAIN ANTAGONIST of the arc...

I have a feeling the Manga will shed a little more light on this, so I'm not to concerned that we didn't get a resolution in the Anime. I'm curious too, but at the end of the day it's small potatoes for me.

[BlueBasilisk]

I'm saying, that they didn't need to reveal the specific details for the wish for the plot point to have a pay-off.

Personally, I thought his wish was about removing the void that his past left in him, or becoming the ultimate justice, either way, it didn't matter. It was a selfish wish that was supposed to remedy and gratify his past experiences.

In the end I think it stopped mattering to Jiren too. When he was about to ring Goku out, he seemed more regretful that their fight would end on such a note than anything. Belmod even had to shout that he'e get the Super Dragon Balls if he won to urge him on and after the battle he didn't seem to care that he didn't get his wish. I also think it was related to his inability to let go of his past and move on. 17 called him out on being stuck in the past, and when he was bonding with Toppo, he talked about being unable to form bonds with other people because he couldn't let go. So having witnessed the power or trust through U7 and bonding with Goku and Toppo through battle, it seems like he might have found the 'beyond strength' and the resolution he sought.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Why does it not matter just because he lost? It was set up as a plot point, it's the antagonist's reason for wanting to win (aside from not wanting to be erased), and how does keeping a motivation a mystery add anything to the story? So because the show brings up a plot point and I want to know more about it, that makes it justified when they completely forget about it and never bring it up again?


What's the point? The tournament is already over.

Especially when all they needed to do was have Jiren as he's being erased be like "I can't believe I was selfish enough to want to win do x reason" or have him tell Toppo his wish as a symbol of their new bond or whatever.

And that wouldn't have added anything to the show.

It's literally additional information for the story that is lacking...so I disagree. I'll try and stay polite but honestly a reply this dense doesn't deserve it.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Especially when all they needed to do was have Jiren as he's being erased be like "I can't believe I was selfish enough to want to win do x reason" or have him tell Toppo his wish as a symbol of their new bond or whatever.

And that wouldn't have added anything to the show.

It's literally additional information for the story that is lacking...so I disagree. I'll try and stay polite but honestly a reply this dense doesn't deserve it.

It really wouldnt bave added anything to the story. The reply may be dense, but its a valid one.

[Asura]

"The main antagonist's motivation for winning wouldn't add anything to the story."

???

Bring something like this up in any other show/medium that isn't Dragon Ball and guaranteed you would have people bitching about it, and rightfully so. Casting aside the main villain's motivation for doing what he does and saying it's meaningless is simply ridiculous. Imagine if you got rid of Zamasu's motivation for killing Goku and fucking with Trunks' timeline, but he still goes on to try and do it anyway. The events would play out the same, only you wouldn't know why Zamasu wanted to kill Goku in the first place, he just does. It has nothing to do with the "Zero Mortal Plan" though, so it's not important. Zamasu was defeated by Zeno in the end so learning why Zamasu was so obsessed with killing Goku & Trunks in the first place wouldn't add anything to the story.

[lancerman]

"The main antagonist's motivation for winning wouldn't add anything to the story."

???

Bring something like this up in any other show/medium that isn't Dragon Ball and guaranteed you would have people bitching about it, and rightfully so. Casting aside the main villain's motivation for doing what he does and saying it's meaningless is simply ridiculous. Imagine if you got rid of Zamasu's motivation for killing Goku and fucking with Trunks' timeline, but he still goes on to try and do it anyway. The events would play out the same, only you wouldn't know why Zamasu wanted to kill Goku in the first place, he just does. It has nothing to do with the "Zero Mortal Plan" though, so it's not important. Zamasu was defeated by Zeno in the end so learning why Zamasu was so obsessed with killing Goku & Trunks in the first place wouldn't add anything to the story.

The main antagonist was Zeno and the threat of the universes being erased. Jiren just happened to be the strongest and last of many fighters to stand in the way of U7. He’s not the main antagonist. We didn’t need to know his wish, we just needed to know that him winning meant that Universe 7 and likely his own universe would be erased because we know by his character that he wasn’t caring or trusting enough of other people to make a selfless wish.

You didn’t need to know his wish. If tomorrow Toriyama said in an interview that Jiren would have wished his parents back, what does it add? Nothing really. We know he misses them.

It’s better leaving it a mystery and maybe something that might or might not be revisited. It just wasn’t needed here. You didn’t know half the other fighters wishes. All you needed to know was they all were trying to survive.

[Asura]

"The main antagonist's motivation for winning wouldn't add anything to the story."

???

Bring something like this up in any other show/medium that isn't Dragon Ball and guaranteed you would have people bitching about it, and rightfully so. Casting aside the main villain's motivation for doing what he does and saying it's meaningless is simply ridiculous. Imagine if you got rid of Zamasu's motivation for killing Goku and fucking with Trunks' timeline, but he still goes on to try and do it anyway. The events would play out the same, only you wouldn't know why Zamasu wanted to kill Goku in the first place, he just does. It has nothing to do with the "Zero Mortal Plan" though, so it's not important. Zamasu was defeated by Zeno in the end so learning why Zamasu was so obsessed with killing Goku & Trunks in the first place wouldn't add anything to the story.

The main antagonist was Zeno and the threat of the universes being erased. Jiren just happened to be the strongest and last of many fighters to stand in the way of U7. He’s not the main antagonist. We didn’t need to know his wish, we just needed to know that him winning meant that Universe 7 and likely his own universe would be erased because we know by his character that he wasn’t caring or trusting enough of other people to make a selfless wish.

You didn’t need to know his wish. If tomorrow Toriyama said in an interview that Jiren would have wished his parents back, what does it add? Nothing really. We know he misses them.

It’s better leaving it a mystery and maybe something that might or might not be revisited. It just wasn’t needed here. You didn’t know half the other fighters wishes. All you needed to know was they all were trying to survive.

Then why bring up the wish in the first place? You can't just bring up important plot points and forget about them.

And no, Zeno was not the main antagonist. Synonyms for antagonist are "adversary, opponent, enemy, foe, rival, competitor". Zeno is none of those things, Jiren is all of them. You also did nothing to refute my Zamasu comparison.

[lancerman]

"The main antagonist's motivation for winning wouldn't add anything to the story."

???

Bring something like this up in any other show/medium that isn't Dragon Ball and guaranteed you would have people bitching about it, and rightfully so. Casting aside the main villain's motivation for doing what he does and saying it's meaningless is simply ridiculous. Imagine if you got rid of Zamasu's motivation for killing Goku and fucking with Trunks' timeline, but he still goes on to try and do it anyway. The events would play out the same, only you wouldn't know why Zamasu wanted to kill Goku in the first place, he just does. It has nothing to do with the "Zero Mortal Plan" though, so it's not important. Zamasu was defeated by Zeno in the end so learning why Zamasu was so obsessed with killing Goku & Trunks in the first place wouldn't add anything to the story.

The main antagonist was Zeno and the threat of the universes being erased. Jiren just happened to be the strongest and last of many fighters to stand in the way of U7. He’s not the main antagonist. We didn’t need to know his wish, we just needed to know that him winning meant that Universe 7 and likely his own universe would be erased because we know by his character that he wasn’t caring or trusting enough of other people to make a selfless wish.

You didn’t need to know his wish. If tomorrow Toriyama said in an interview that Jiren would have wished his parents back, what does it add? Nothing really. We know he misses them.

It’s better leaving it a mystery and maybe something that might or might not be revisited. It just wasn’t needed here. You didn’t know half the other fighters wishes. All you needed to know was they all were trying to survive.

Then why bring up the wish in the first place? You can't just bring up important plot points and forget about them.

And no, Zeno was not the main antagonist. Synonyms for antagonist are "adversary, opponent, enemy, foe, rival, competitor". Zeno is none of those things, Jiren is all of them. You also did nothing to refute my Zamasu comparison.

The main conflict of the arc was caused by Zeno. He was the antagonist. That’s like saying Cabba or Hit were antagonists because they were on an opposing team. Jiren could have been knocked out early and Frost could have went Super Golden and it wouldn’t have changed the conflict. That’s like saying Grandpa Gohan was the main antagonist of the Red Ribbon arc because he was the last and strongest adversary Goku fought to get the Dragon Balls.

Again if it came out today that his wish was to revive his parents.... it doesn’t change or effect the story. Like literally plug Jiren saying “now I’ll never revive my parents“ immediately after losing. What was added?

Seriously I’d love to know how that changes anything.

[Asura]

The main antagonist was Zeno and the threat of the universes being erased. Jiren just happened to be the strongest and last of many fighters to stand in the way of U7. He’s not the main antagonist. We didn’t need to know his wish, we just needed to know that him winning meant that Universe 7 and likely his own universe would be erased because we know by his character that he wasn’t caring or trusting enough of other people to make a selfless wish.

You didn’t need to know his wish. If tomorrow Toriyama said in an interview that Jiren would have wished his parents back, what does it add? Nothing really. We know he misses them.

It’s better leaving it a mystery and maybe something that might or might not be revisited. It just wasn’t needed here. You didn’t know half the other fighters wishes. All you needed to know was they all were trying to survive.

Then why bring up the wish in the first place? You can't just bring up important plot points and forget about them.

And no, Zeno was not the main antagonist. Synonyms for antagonist are "adversary, opponent, enemy, foe, rival, competitor". Zeno is none of those things, Jiren is all of them. You also did nothing to refute my Zamasu comparison.

The main conflict of the arc was caused by Zeno. He was the antagonist. That’s like saying Cabba or Hit were antagonists because they were on an opposing team. Jiren could have been knocked out early and Frost could have went Super Golden and it wouldn’t have changed the conflict. That’s like saying Grandpa Gohan was the main antagonist of the Red Ribbon arc because he was the last and strongest adversary Goku fought to get the Dragon Balls.

Again if it came out today that his wish was to revive his parents.... it doesn’t change or effect the story. Like literally plug Jiren saying “now I’ll never revive my parents“ immediately after losing. What was added?

Seriously I’d love to know how that changes anything.

You're under the assumption that Jiren's wish would have 100% been to revive his parents. There's actually more proof pointing towards that NOT being the wish than there is proof towards it being the wish. Like I've said numerous times before, 17 pretty much brings that point up and Jiren blatantly denies it and calls the idea ridiculous. Could he have been lying? Perhaps, but there's nothing to really point to to prove that, because the plot point was dropped.

Just because someone is the cause of the main conflict in the arc doesn't automatically make them the antagonist. You're not using the term correctly, it means "a person who actively opposes or is hostile to someone or something; an adversary." Grandpa Gohan IS an antagonist, although I wouldn't call him the "main" antagonist of the Red Ribbon Army arc.

Zeno is the person who erases the universes, yes, but he's not "actively opposing" Goku, nor is he hostile towards him, and obviously he's not an adversary. Zeno is pretty much neutral, in fact, since he takes no sides. If you really wanted to you can interpret him as an antagonist since he technically poses a threat to our protagonist, but he is most definitely not the main antagonist. Cabba, Hit, Caulifla, and Kale are all technically antagonists as well. They're the protagonists of Universe 6, yes, but they directly oppose, fight, and rival our Universe 7, thus making them the antagonists to our protagonist (Goku, the main character of the entire show is obviously the main protagonist).

[Kenneth La Torre]

I want to know what knowing jirens wish would change in the story? If jiren outright told us his wish, why would anything change in the story? The outcome would have been the same.

[Asura]

I want to know what knowing jirens wish would change in the story? If jiren outright told us his wish, why would anything change in the story? The outcome would have been the same.

See my previous post that compares this to Zamasu's situation. Or to paraphrase really quickly, if we never knew the reason why Zamasu hated Goku/Trunks so much and wanted to kill them or why Zamasu decided to steal Goku's body...

"I want to know what knowing Zamasu's motivation would change in the story? If Zamasu outright told us why he hates Goku and Trunks so much and why he decided to steal Goku's body, why would anything change in the story? The outcome would have been the same."

[Baggie_Saiyan]

I want to know what knowing jirens wish would change in the story? If jiren outright told us his wish, why would anything change in the story? The outcome would have been the same.

Not knowing his wish in my opinion is a far more interesting outcome and fits with the him letting go of his baggage theme, his wish didn't matter in the end, as a character he grew past it.

What is ridiculous to me is people comparing Jiren's wish to the identity of Black? Like how? Jiren's wish was his motivation yes and that is it, we don't need to know the specifics of it, completely different to Goku Black in every way.

[Logania]

I wouldn't have minded them not telling us Jiren's wish if they didnt have it be his main motive for the tournament. We don't NEED to know, but we don't NEED a lot of things to be explained or told, but it's nice to have details.

[SupremeKai25]

I want to know what knowing jirens wish would change in the story? If jiren outright told us his wish, why would anything change in the story? The outcome would have been the same.

See my previous post that compares this to Zamasu's situation. Or to paraphrase really quickly, if we never knew the reason why Zamasu hated Goku/Trunks so much and wanted to kill them or why Zamasu decided to steal Goku's body...

"I want to know what knowing Zamasu's motivation would change in the story? If Zamasu outright told us why he hates Goku and Trunks so much and why he decided to steal Goku's body, why would anything change in the story? The outcome would have been the same."

You bring up a very good point. Imagine if we never knew why Zamasu hated mortals, or why and how he stole Goku's body. And Jiren might not be evil, but he is still the main antagonist of this arc, just like Zamasu was in the Future Trunks arc.

It is interesting to note how Jiren mentioned in ep. 122 that he seeks what is beyond strength, so perhaps his wish would have been 'Grant me that which lies beyond strength'.

[Kenneth La Torre]

I want to know what knowing jirens wish would change in the story? If jiren outright told us his wish, why would anything change in the story? The outcome would have been the same.

See my previous post that compares this to Zamasu's situation. Or to paraphrase really quickly, if we never knew the reason why Zamasu hated Goku/Trunks so much and wanted to kill them or why Zamasu decided to steal Goku's body...

"I want to know what knowing Zamasu's motivation would change in the story? If Zamasu outright told us why he hates Goku and Trunks so much and why he decided to steal Goku's body, why would anything change in the story? The outcome would have been the same."

Sorry but thats not a good comparison. Zamasu literally had something going on with the main character, so much so he switch bodies with him. Of course we needed to know more about him and his connection to goku. jiren does not give a damn about goku or anyone in the tournament (until the last episodes) He is irrelavent to the main character and is only there because he is the best option for universe 11s survival.

[Asura]

I want to know what knowing jirens wish would change in the story? If jiren outright told us his wish, why would anything change in the story? The outcome would have been the same.

See my previous post that compares this to Zamasu's situation. Or to paraphrase really quickly, if we never knew the reason why Zamasu hated Goku/Trunks so much and wanted to kill them or why Zamasu decided to steal Goku's body...

"I want to know what knowing Zamasu's motivation would change in the story? If Zamasu outright told us why he hates Goku and Trunks so much and why he decided to steal Goku's body, why would anything change in the story? The outcome would have been the same."

Sorry but thats not a good comparison. Zamasu literally had something going on with the main character, so much so he switch bodies with him. Of course we needed to know more about him and his connection to goku. jiren does not give a damn about goku or anyone in the tournament (until the last episodes) He is irrelavent to the main character and is only there because he is the best option for universe 11s survival.

Why do we need to know more about him and his connection to Goku if it wouldn’t change the outcome of the arc? That’s the defense of so many trying to say it doesn’t matter what Jiren’s wish would have been since he lost anyway.

Jiren is definitely not irrelevant to Goku. He’s literally the “big bad” of the arc (although he’s not a bad person). Goku would have never reached the heights he reached, especially with Ultra Instinct, without Jiren. Like Goku said, they both got stronger by fighting each other, and the whole theme of the arc was that everyone is already at their limits, they just need to break them.