Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

With regards to Kefla's SS forms, they do seem more equatable to Kale's.

Her SS form seems to be around as strong as perhaps SS2 in power, whilst her SS2 is above SS3.

[Rally 07]

With regards to Kefla's SS forms, they do seem more equatable to Kale's.

Her SS form seems to be around as strong as perhaps SS2 in power, whilst her SS2 is above SS3.

I've actually noticed this as well. As a normal Super Saiyan she's fighting somewhat evenly against Super Saiyan 2 Gokou, if not putting up a better fight than Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla. Then in her mastered Super Saiyan Berserker form she's able to briefly exchange blows and hold her own against Super Saiyan God Gokou, while Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla was getting cucked around by Gokou.

[Marlowe89]

Well that statement of Whis' can be interpreted in different ways. Some argue it's a comparison of role/ability, and I honestly haven't got the slightest clue on what that means. I've read this on Comicvine with DottiestMoon's post and others whom made the same arguments. Even now I'm a little puzzled with the connection between Kefura and the Genkidama. Then many more believe the statement is a comparison in power between Kefura and the Genkidama. Which way do you interpret that statment? A comparison of power or role/ability?

I'm familiar with that argument, but both sides have some pretty strong points so I'm not entirely certain myself. Referring to Kefla's ki as a "rival" for anything makes it seem like a straight strength comparison, although I do find it somewhat odd that the comparison would have been phrased the way it was to begin with since the fight didn't seem to be too one-sided in Kefla's favor even after she powered up again.

To be honest, the entire fight is kind of bizarre because you never really get the sense that they're going full-force until Goku goes Ultra Instinct and Kefla goes Super Saiyan 2. They're just kind of playing around until then, with Goku being exhausted and Kefla still adjusting to her power.

[Bullza]

Golden Freeza, Ultimate Gohan, or Artificial Human No. 17 are obviously not comparable to Super Saiyan Blue Gokou or Vegeta when fighting Jiren in the later episodes. Cause y'know cough*, Zenkai Boosts.

Ehhhh wasn't Jiren stronger when he fought Frieza compared to when he fought Goku and Vegeta though?

Pretty sure he was at full power by the time he was stomping Frieza.

[Rally 07]

Ehhhh wasn't Jiren stronger when he fought Frieza compared to when he fought Goku and Vegeta though?

Pretty sure he was at full power by the time he was stomping Frieza.

In what episode? 127? What I meant was that Golden Freeza, Artificial Human No.17, and Ultimate Gohan are relative to Super Saiyan Blue Gokou and Vegeta before fighting Jiren. Because of fighting Jiren, they get numerous Zenkai Boosts making them much stronger.

[ToshioWrites]

How do you guys think SSBE Vegeta , SSB KKx20 Goku and GoD mode Toppo compare to Vegito from the last arc?

[ankokudaishogun]

Then in her mastered Super Saiyan Berserker form u.

Bulky + visibile eyes means Super Saiyan 2(as of Dokkan Battle).
Obviously a much greater multiplier than normal SS2.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

How do you guys think SSBE Vegeta , SSB KKx20 Goku and GoD mode Toppo compare to Vegito from the last arc?

Whilst not quite there, ESSB Vegeta and SSB/KKx20 Goku could definitely at least briefly fight with Vegito.

Hakaishi Toppo could potentially be a relatively even fight, if he can manage to charge up his Hakai Energy to full power.

[ToshioWrites]

How do you guys think SSBE Vegeta , SSB KKx20 Goku and GoD mode Toppo compare to Vegito from the last arc?

Whilst not quite there, ESSB Vegeta and SSB/KKx20 Goku could definitely at least briefly fight with Vegito.

Hakaishi Toppo could potentially be a relatively even fight, if he can manage to charge up his Hakai Energy to full power.

How do you think they would do vs the manga version of Vegito Blue?

[Bullza]

In what episode? 127? What I meant was that Golden Freeza, Artificial Human No.17, and Ultimate Gohan are relative to Super Saiyan Blue Gokou and Vegeta before fighting Jiren. Because of fighting Jiren, they get numerous Zenkai Boosts making them much stronger.

It might have been, it wasn't that long ago. I don't think Goku or Vegeta had any zenkai boosts.

Super Saiyan Blue Goku, Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta, Golden Frieza and Toppo are all on the same level. Ultimate Gohan and Android 17 being below that level.

As far as I always saw it.

[Rally 07]

It might have been, it wasn't that long ago. I don't think Goku or Vegeta had any zenkai boosts.

No Zenkai Boosts? You're not taking into account how Gokou and Vegeta have been pushing Jiren to use more power. Hell even Jiren backs this up as he states both Gokou and Vegeta's attacks are getting sharper and stronger. Jiren is even pushed to use power to the point of which Belmod hasn't seen him use that much power in a long time. And that was against Super Saiyan Blue Gokou w/ Kaioken and a more powerful Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta. Not even the first Ultra Instinct Omen from Super episode 110 has pushed Jiren to such a state. How could they have not received any Zenkai Boosts at all?

Edit: Also I know power levels were neglected since the Namek story arc, but doesn't mean Zenkai Boosts were either. Negating Zenkai Boosts as if they're no longer are a thing, would be negating and denying the whole concept of Saiyan biology.

Super Saiyan Blue Goku, Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta, Golden Frieza and Toppo are all on the same level.

Right but you do know how Super Saiyan Blue Gokou and Vegeta are able to push Jiren to use power in some of the later Super episodes such as episode 123, 124, 125, 126, and 127. They push Jiren to a state where Belmod hasn't seen Jiren use so much power in a long time. And the first Ultra Instinct Omen, Super Saiyan Blue Gokou w/ Kaioken x 20 from Super episode 109, the Genkidama, Hit, or Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta from Super episode 122 didn't push Jiren to use as much power as he did later. How could they be on the same level they were at the beginning of the Tournament? They makes no literal sense whatsoever.

Ultimate Gohan and Android 17 being below that level.

Let's not start the downplay war against Artificial Human No.17 and Ultimate Gohan. While they're not comparable to current Super Saiyan Blue Gokou or Vegeta, or Hakaishin Toppo. They ARE indeed God tier proving they can combat against these Super Saiyan Blue level fighters such as Gokou, Vegeta, Freeza, Base form Toppo, and Dyspo. If they weren't comparable to Super Saiyan Blues, then it wouldn't make sense how No.17 was holding his own against Base form Toppo (Granted he was gradually getting overpowered), or how Ultimate Gohan was able to cuck around Dyspo. The same guy who was able to take on Hit, a Super Saiyan Blue (Before Jiren) level fighter.

[Kenneth La Torre]

How do you guys think SSBE Vegeta , SSB KKx20 Goku and GoD mode Toppo compare to Vegito from the last arc?

Whilst not quite there, ESSB Vegeta and SSB/KKx20 Goku could definitely at least briefly fight with Vegito.

Hakaishi Toppo could potentially be a relatively even fight, if he can manage to charge up his Hakai Energy to full power.

How do you think they would do vs the manga version of Vegito Blue?

whats the difference between manga vegito and anime vegito, besides the fact that manga vegito fought a much weaker version of fusion zamasu?

[ToshioWrites]

Whilst not quite there, ESSB Vegeta and SSB/KKx20 Goku could definitely at least briefly fight with Vegito.

Hakaishi Toppo could potentially be a relatively even fight, if he can manage to charge up his Hakai Energy to full power.

How do you think they would do vs the manga version of Vegito Blue?

whats the difference between manga vegito and anime vegito, besides the fact that manga vegito fought a much weaker version of fusion zamasu?

Well I guess Shins statements about jiren in 109 make it seem like vegito blue from the zamasu arc would be a complete chump compared to a heavily heavily suppressed jiren whereas atleast in the manga, as unreliable as he maybe, shin compared vegito to beerus. I mean the ToP arc makes it feel like m zamasu and vegito would be nothing to Jiren and Omen Goku and maybe even Kefla

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

How do you think they would do vs the manga version of Vegito Blue?

whats the difference between manga vegito and anime vegito, besides the fact that manga vegito fought a much weaker version of fusion zamasu?

Well I guess Shins statements about jiren in 109 make it seem like vegito blue from the zamasu arc would be a complete chump compared to a heavily heavily suppressed jiren whereas atleast in the manga, as unreliable as he maybe, shin compared vegito to beerus. I mean the ToP arc makes it feel like m zamasu and vegito would be nothing to Jiren and Omen Goku and maybe even Kefla

Thing is, people keep thinking that Jiren's suppressed power is the massive thing being spoken of.

Nobody ever seems to consider the other equally likely option of Jiren's SUPPRESSION being so great that one can tell how powerful he could be from that.

[Kenneth La Torre]

whats the difference between manga vegito and anime vegito, besides the fact that manga vegito fought a much weaker version of fusion zamasu?

Well I guess Shins statements about jiren in 109 make it seem like vegito blue from the zamasu arc would be a complete chump compared to a heavily heavily suppressed jiren whereas atleast in the manga, as unreliable as he maybe, shin compared vegito to beerus. I mean the ToP arc makes it feel like m zamasu and vegito would be nothing to Jiren and Omen Goku and maybe even Kefla

Thing is, people keep thinking that Jiren's suppressed power is the massive thing being spoken of.

Nobody ever seems to consider the other equally likely option of Jiren's SUPPRESSION being so great that one can tell how powerful he could be from that.

The other is that shin may have just been completely wrong about vegito blue.

I wont make a judgement until we see the first round of goku vs jiren, to see of theres a statement about jirens power being hakaishin level while supressed

[ToshioWrites]

Well I guess Shins statements about jiren in 109 make it seem like vegito blue from the zamasu arc would be a complete chump compared to a heavily heavily suppressed jiren whereas atleast in the manga, as unreliable as he maybe, shin compared vegito to beerus. I mean the ToP arc makes it feel like m zamasu and vegito would be nothing to Jiren and Omen Goku and maybe even Kefla

Thing is, people keep thinking that Jiren's suppressed power is the massive thing being spoken of.

Nobody ever seems to consider the other equally likely option of Jiren's SUPPRESSION being so great that one can tell how powerful he could be from that.

The other is that shin may have just been completely wrong about vegito blue.

I wont make a judgement until we see the first round of goku vs jiren, to see of theres a statement about jirens power being hakaishin level while supressed

If Jiren at the power he used in 109 is at the level of an active GoD or possibly above then basically Goku, Vegeta, Toppo and Kefla would all be above that level too since I think all of them are atleast stronger than whatever jiren used in round 1 vs goku

[Kenneth La Torre]

Thing is, people keep thinking that Jiren's suppressed power is the massive thing being spoken of.

Nobody ever seems to consider the other equally likely option of Jiren's SUPPRESSION being so great that one can tell how powerful he could be from that.

The other is that shin may have just been completely wrong about vegito blue.

I wont make a judgement until we see the first round of goku vs jiren, to see of theres a statement about jirens power being hakaishin level while supressed

If Jiren at the power he used in 109 is at the level of an active GoD or possibly above then basically Goku, Vegeta, Toppo and Kefla would all be above that level too since I think all of them are atleast stronger than whatever jiren used in round 1 vs goku

It just means they are at that level, not above. Which sould justify toppos power as a hakaishin somewhat.

But thats if jirens suppressed power is compared to a hakaishin in the manga, which if there is no statement, then i woukd change my mind about jiren being hakaishin level + at full power, and only beyond hakaishin level with his dormant powers awakened.

[ToshioWrites]

The other is that shin may have just been completely wrong about vegito blue.

I wont make a judgement until we see the first round of goku vs jiren, to see of theres a statement about jirens power being hakaishin level while supressed

If Jiren at the power he used in 109 is at the level of an active GoD or possibly above then basically Goku, Vegeta, Toppo and Kefla would all be above that level too since I think all of them are atleast stronger than whatever jiren used in round 1 vs goku

It just means they are at that level, not above. Which sould justify toppos power as a hakaishin somewhat.

But thats if jirens suppressed power is compared to a hakaishin in the manga, which if there is no statement, then i woukd change my mind about jiren being hakaishin level + at full power, and only beyond hakaishin level with his dormant powers awakened.

Yeah we've got to wait and see but my interpretation of that is that Whis was looking at the ease with which jiren was taking on goku + spirit bomb and he knows only someone with GoD level of power or above can do that with that level of ease. I don't think he meant 109 Jiren using 1% or whatever was >= GoDs but We shall see

[Kenneth La Torre]

If Jiren at the power he used in 109 is at the level of an active GoD or possibly above then basically Goku, Vegeta, Toppo and Kefla would all be above that level too since I think all of them are atleast stronger than whatever jiren used in round 1 vs goku

It just means they are at that level, not above. Which sould justify toppos power as a hakaishin somewhat.

But thats if jirens suppressed power is compared to a hakaishin in the manga, which if there is no statement, then i woukd change my mind about jiren being hakaishin level + at full power, and only beyond hakaishin level with his dormant powers awakened.

Yeah we've got to wait and see but my interpretation of that is that Whis was looking at the ease with which jiren was taking on goku + spirit bomb and he knows only someone with GoD level of power or above can do that with that level of ease. I don't think he meant 109 Jiren using 1% or whatever was >= GoDs but We shall see

Thats mines as well. Only at full power is jiren at peak hakaishin level of powers, and above hakaishin level with his dormant powers unlocked. At least, thats what i believe.

[Raphael_Z]

I'm not sure how Android 17 compares to Ultimate Gohan but both of them have been shown on a few occasions to not be at the current Super Saiyan Blue level.

Whether they're Resurrection F saga Super Saiyan Blue level, Super Saiyan God level or less, I couldn't say.

I believe that Ultimate Gohan, A17 and Golden Frieza are low-tier Blue Level which would be the power that Vegeta and Goku had as SSBlue in RoF but way below the power that Vegeta and Goku achieved as SSBlue in the TOP.