Tournament of Power is a major let down

[ekrolo2]

I am curious what specifically you are referring to when you say "plot points get introduced only to get dropped next episode." I could be wrong but the only two that come to mind to me are when they say that Toppo needs time to charge his Hakai and you were lead to believe that would mean something and it didn't and then in 126 it is said that Vegeta has no energy left and then in 127 he goes to SSBE with no issues.

There's plenty of examples of this shit. I'd have to rewatch the arc to list all of them. How many times were two characters fighting only for them to be fighting completely different characters in the next episode? How many times were character arcs repeated (Vegeta's speeches, Toppo saying justice is useless TWICE, Kale going through the same arc of gaining confidence TWICE)? There is also, of course, the entire premise of the Zen Exhibition, which was Goku being such a naive and reckless individual to the universe (something Beerus specifically points out, so whether or not you believe it is correct, the characters themselves did), something that gets dropped almost immediately.

Don't forget "Goku is learning Ultra Instinct by abandoning all thoughts not on the battle!" only to for the episode right after to let him power the form up by getting pissed off. Like how Blue is all about calm and ki control but also gives you rage boosts too.

[Doctor.]

I am curious what specifically you are referring to when you say "plot points get introduced only to get dropped next episode." I could be wrong but the only two that come to mind to me are when they say that Toppo needs time to charge his Hakai and you were lead to believe that would mean something and it didn't and then in 126 it is said that Vegeta has no energy left and then in 127 he goes to SSBE with no issues.

There's plenty of examples of this shit. I'd have to rewatch the arc to list all of them. How many times were two characters fighting only for them to be fighting completely different characters in the next episode? How many times were character arcs repeated (Vegeta's speeches, Toppo saying justice is useless TWICE, Kale going through the same arc of gaining confidence TWICE)? There is also, of course, the entire premise of the Zen Exhibition, which was Goku being such a naive and reckless individual to the universe (something Beerus specifically points out, so whether or not you believe it is correct, the characters themselves did), something that gets dropped almost immediately.

Don't forget "Goku is learning Ultra Instinct by abandoning all thoughts not on the battle!" only to for the episode right after to let him power the form up by getting pissed off. Like how Blue is all about calm and ki control but also gives you rage boosts too.

There's also Freeza coming back to job instantly for 3 episodes straight for nothing more than poor Namek arc references.

I'd honestly rewatch the entire arc and list off all of its structural problems but I'm positive I'd get some kind of cancer from watching this piece of trash again.

[PFM18]

I am curious what specifically you are referring to when you say "plot points get introduced only to get dropped next episode." I could be wrong but the only two that come to mind to me are when they say that Toppo needs time to charge his Hakai and you were lead to believe that would mean something and it didn't and then in 126 it is said that Vegeta has no energy left and then in 127 he goes to SSBE with no issues.

There's plenty of examples of this shit. I'd have to rewatch the arc to list all of them. How many times were two characters fighting only for them to be fighting completely different characters in the next episode? How many times were character arcs repeated (Vegeta's speeches, Toppo saying justice is useless TWICE, Kale going through the same arc of gaining confidence TWICE)? There is also, of course, the entire premise of the Zen Exhibition, which was Goku being such a naive and reckless individual to the universe (something Beerus specifically points out, so whether or not you believe it is correct, the characters themselves did), something that gets dropped almost immediately.

I dont recall characters fighting completely different characters in consecutive episodes but even if they did that is the nature of a battle royal is it not? That you could be fighting one person one moment and another the next moment? I wouldnt say Vegeta making two speeches means that his entire character arc was repeated or that if he has 3 or 4 speeches then his character arc was neccessarily repeated. Vegeta constantly motivating himself with the same things doesnt neccessarily mean he is repeating his character arc. At the worst thid could be called too much emphasis on Vegeta's character but that is kinda it. Toppo initially made a comment about justice being worthless but that was just foreshadowing. Kale's growth wasnt strictly one of confidence and it wasnt really repeated it centered around her bond with Caulifla because she would get jealous if she formed a bond with somebody else. And the disdain for Golu didnt end immediately. They had the meetings that didnt include the corresponding god of U7 because of Goku and they ultimately had Univeese 9 and Quitela's Universe collaborate to try and disqualify Goku's universe. Even within the tournament Zen oh showed his love for Goku and for the Gods to villainize Goku it would be almost directly opposing Zenoh.

I think this may be a problem of things being misinterpreted/misundeestood rather than it actually being poor writing.

I am curious what specifically you are referring to when you say "plot points get introduced only to get dropped next episode." I could be wrong but the only two that come to mind to me are when they say that Toppo needs time to charge his Hakai and you were lead to believe that would mean something and it didn't and then in 126 it is said that Vegeta has no energy left and then in 127 he goes to SSBE with no issues.

There's plenty of examples of this shit. I'd have to rewatch the arc to list all of them. How many times were two characters fighting only for them to be fighting completely different characters in the next episode? How many times were character arcs repeated (Vegeta's speeches, Toppo saying justice is useless TWICE, Kale going through the same arc of gaining confidence TWICE)? There is also, of course, the entire premise of the Zen Exhibition, which was Goku being such a naive and reckless individual to the universe (something Beerus specifically points out, so whether or not you believe it is correct, the characters themselves did), something that gets dropped almost immediately.

Don't forget "Goku is learning Ultra Instinct by abandoning all thoughts not on the battle!" only to for the episode right after to let him power the form up by getting pissed off. Like how Blue is all about calm and ki control but also gives you rage boosts too.

Ultra Instinct transitioning from UI omen to actual Ultra Instinct was through clearing his mind and ultimately allowing his body to attack and not just defend. IIRC the form itself when he achieved UI Omen was through anger and being enraged at the thought of letting down all of his friends who are counting on him. That is further emphasized during the actual final battle and it doesn't remotely contradict anything previously. When he was in base and achieved UI omen it was a similar rage that gave him a power boost in 131. Just because his transition from Omen to true UI(aka just being able to attack) didn't revolve around the same concept doesn't mean it contradicts the idea of achieving the form. He was pushed to his absolute limit and had to protect his friends and family, the form is furthered by being able to empty your mind and focus on only the battle and nothing outside of it doesn't contradict what got him the form in the first place. And being able to move independently of thought doesn't mean you are absent of thoughts at all and can't gain power from being enraged. Rage has literally been a source of Saiyan power from the beginning of the series for it not to be a factor in the final battle would be ridiculous.

[Doctor.]

I dont recall characters fighting completely different characters in consecutive episodes but even if they did that is the nature of a battle royal is it not? That you could be fighting one person one moment and another the next moment?

You have Lavenda fighting Gohan's jobber circle and, in the same episode, they cut to him fighting Goku and Vegeta. Then, of course, you also have the very infamous example of Vegeta vs Toppo going on during the Kefla fight only for them to be fighting other characters the very next episode. That's not really the nature of a battle royale. Look at the manga (which also has its faults and is shaping up to be a poor arc as well): it's just as chaotic and yet you never see a character switching fighters without explanation; everything flows, the action has a logical progression to it. You don't present us with the set-up to a fight only to put those characters into completely different situations in the next episode. What's the point? To pad out run time?

I wouldnt say Vegeta making two speeches means that his entire character arc was repeated or that if he has 3 or 4 speeches then his character arc was neccessarily repeated. Vegeta constantly motivating himself with the same things doesnt neccessarily mean he is repeating his character arc. At the worst thid could be called too much emphasis on Vegeta's character but that is kinda it.

No, at worst it's what it is: it's needlessly hammering down the point that "Vegeta cares about people, guys" whilst doing absolutely nothing new and innovative with the idea. We don't need to have that shoved down our throats 3 or 4 or 5 times.

Toppo initially made a comment about justice being worthless but that was just foreshadowing.

It wasn't. It was literally, almost word-for-word, the same speech (it would serve as 'foreshadowing' if there was some sort of point of transition between the two scenes, but there wasn't). Except he goes back to yelling justice in the next episode right after the first instance where he says justice is worthless. Again, what's the fucking point? The audience gets the impression that either a) they backpedaled hard or b) the writers don't communicate. Whichever one it is, it's definitely not good writing.

[quote=""PFM18"]Kale's growth wasnt strictly one of confidence and it wasnt really repeated it centered around her bond with Caulifla because she would get jealous if she formed a bond with somebody else. And the disdain for Golu didnt end immediately.[/quote]

I'm referring to episodes 101 and 113/114 which literally have the same arc: Caulifla gives Kale the power to believe in herself and they fight together. I mean, they didn't even address the very thing you point out: that Kale gets jealous if Caulifla bonds with someone else; no solution to that problem was ever presented. They just backpedaled on that concept that cast some spotlight on their extremely toxic relationship.

They had the meetings that didnt include the corresponding god of U7 because of Goku and they ultimately had Univeese 9 and Quitela's Universe collaborate to try and disqualify Goku's universe. Even within the tournament Zen oh showed his love for Goku and for the Gods to villainize Goku it would be almost directly opposing Zenoh.

Yes, that's all included in what I meant by "Zen Exhibition" or, if you prefer, the "recruitment arc." It just makes it all the more jarring that that plot point gets dropped hard as a fucking rock the exact moment the tournament starts. And that's your excuse, really, because the Gods themselves never even vocalized the thought that by villainizing Goku they would be angering Zeno.

It would be fine if the plot points were dropped with some explanation - disappointing, but fine. The problem is that they drop plot points out of the blue with no explanation whatsoever. That's what you're not getting.

[ekrolo2]

Ultra Instinct transitioning from UI omen to actual Ultra Instinct was through clearing his mind and ultimately allowing his body to attack and not just defend. IIRC the form itself when he achieved UI Omen was through anger and being enraged at the thought of letting down all of his friends who are counting on him. That is further emphasized during the actual final battle and it doesn't remotely contradict anything previously. When he was in base and achieved UI omen it was a similar rage that gave him a power boost in 131. Just because his transition from Omen to true UI(aka just being able to attack) didn't revolve around the same concept doesn't mean it contradicts the idea of achieving the form. He was pushed to his absolute limit and had to protect his friends and family, the form is furthered by being able to empty your mind and focus on only the battle and nothing outside of it doesn't contradict what got him the form in the first place. And being able to move independently of thought doesn't mean you are absent of thoughts at all and can't gain power from being enraged. Rage has literally been a source of Saiyan power from the beginning of the series for it not to be a factor in the final battle would be ridiculous.

I totally forgot about Goku having a friends flashback to trigger Omen again, this just makes the problem even worse since Omen is firstly setup as a fluke that happens totally outside Goku's control... until it can also get triggered if you need it a lot but you need to apparently not give a shit about anything besides fighting to complete it BBUUTT you can also power up the complete form by getting really, really mad.

This is basically how Super's writing tends to work: if it says "Goku will 100% die for sure if he drinks milk!" anywhere between five minutes to two episodes after this statement is made, Goku will drink milk and nothing will happen to him because reasons. Or it'll be a convoluted follow up statement "Oh well Goku will totally die from drinking milk, unless he's doing it on the 30th anniversary of Crisis on Infinite Earths while arm wrestling a rhino while also rocking Chi-Chi like a hurricane!".

Rage was a source for Gohan on a regular basis, everyone else, back when Dragon Ball was halfway good, nobody got massive power ups from getting angry. Goku gets super desperate to kill Freeza and it does nothing to him, Vegeta constantly gets pissed off and he gets nothing in return. The only exception is Goku attaining SS on Namek.

[Doctor.]

The only exception is Goku attaining SS on Namek.

And you can argue that Goku going Super Saiyan gets a pass because a) it's foreshadowed and all the prerequisites for the transformation are laid out in advance, and b) it furthers Goku's character arc and actually complements the entire arc's narrative.

[ekrolo2]

The only exception is Goku attaining SS on Namek.

And you can argue that Goku going Super Saiyan gets a pass because a) it's foreshadowed and all the prerequisites for the transformation are laid out in advance, and b) it furthers Goku's character arc and actually complements the entire arc's narrative.

Which is why UIs issues stick out as it's a form called "Key of Egoism" and "Secret of Selfishness" and yet they flip flop between it being that and just a generic power up you can get if you feel stuff hard enough. Ideally, I would have liked UI to stay something defined by you removing of all emotions and distractions but if they wanted a friendship power up, they should've just set that up and kept it that way instead of flip flopping.

[PFM18]

I dont recall characters fighting completely different characters in consecutive episodes but even if they did that is the nature of a battle royal is it not? That you could be fighting one person one moment and another the next moment?

You have Lavenda fighting Gohan's jobber circle and, in the same episode, they cut to him fighting Goku and Vegeta. Then, of course, you also have the very infamous example of Vegeta vs Toppo going on during the Kefla fight only for them to be fighting other characters the very next episode. That's not really the nature of a battle royale. Look at the manga (which also has its faults and is shaping up to be a poor arc as well): it's just as chaotic and yet you never see a character switching fighters without explanation; everything flows, the action has a logical progression to it. You don't present us with the set-up to a fight only to put those characters into completely different situations in the next episode. What's the point? To pad out run time?

I wouldnt say Vegeta making two speeches means that his entire character arc was repeated or that if he has 3 or 4 speeches then his character arc was neccessarily repeated. Vegeta constantly motivating himself with the same things doesnt neccessarily mean he is repeating his character arc. At the worst thid could be called too much emphasis on Vegeta's character but that is kinda it.

No, at worst it's what it is: it's needlessly hammering down the point that "Vegeta cares about people, guys" whilst doing absolutely nothing new and innovative with the idea. We don't need to have that shoved down our throats 3 or 4 or 5 times.

Toppo initially made a comment about justice being worthless but that was just foreshadowing.

It wasn't. It was literally, almost word-for-word, the same speech (it would serve as 'foreshadowing' if there was some sort of point of transition between the two scenes, but there wasn't). Except he goes back to yelling justice in the next episode right after the first instance where he says justice is worthless. Again, what's the fucking point? The audience gets the impression that either a) they backpedaled hard or b) the writers don't communicate. Whichever one it is, it's definitely not good writing.

[quote=""PFM18"]Kale's growth wasnt strictly one of confidence and it wasnt really repeated it centered around her bond with Caulifla because she would get jealous if she formed a bond with somebody else. And the disdain for Golu didnt end immediately.

I'm referring to episodes 101 and 113/114 which literally have the same arc: Caulifla gives Kale the power to believe in herself and they fight together. I mean, they didn't even address the very thing you point out: that Kale gets jealous if Caulifla bonds with someone else; no solution to that problem was ever presented. They just backpedaled on that concept that cast some spotlight on their extremely toxic relationship.

They had the meetings that didnt include the corresponding god of U7 because of Goku and they ultimately had Univeese 9 and Quitela's Universe collaborate to try and disqualify Goku's universe. Even within the tournament Zen oh showed his love for Goku and for the Gods to villainize Goku it would be almost directly opposing Zenoh.

Yes, that's all included in what I meant by "Zen Exhibition" or, if you prefer, the "recruitment arc." It just makes it all the more jarring that that plot point gets dropped hard as a fucking rock the exact moment the tournament starts. And that's your excuse, really, because the Gods themselves never even vocalized the thought that by villainizing Goku they would be angering Zeno.

It would be fine if the plot points were dropped with some explanation - disappointing, but fine. The problem is that they drop plot points out of the blue with no explanation whatsoever. That's what you're not getting.[/quote]

I guess I just disagree. Characters changing opponents fairly often and without an explicit warning just kind of illustrates the chaotic nature of a battle royal. They try to show this, especially early in the tournament, showing the explosions everywhere to kind of show that everybody is fighting but you can't really show all these fights on screen at once. Two people are fighting and then a 3rd attacks one of them and now the one that isn't attacked may get wrapped up in another fight. I see no reason why characters can't switch opponents without blatantly showing you on screen. If anything this seems like your own personal preference than bad writing.

I saw the Vegeta scenes differently. than that personally. Vegeta has always been motivated to be stronger by the desire to surpass Goku. He has always felt this way right? It always came down to Goku. In the copy Vegeta arc Vegeta showed that he would rather die than see Goku beat him and surpass him. So early in the arc when Goku reaches UI for the first time, Vegeta is pissed and asks Goku afterwards how he did it. He was mad. So then he tries to achieve it himself by letting the Katopesla attack him and without thinking has supposed to dodge. Then the focus shifts away from Goku; he says that Goku can have Ultra Instinct because he doesn't need it. Then he is getting beaten by Jiren and he is coming to terms with the idea that he may not be able to win this but he promised Cabba he would. He gets enraged at the idea of failing Cabba and letting him down.(nothing to do with Goku) Then he gets the new form. So then against Toppo he is losing and realizes that everything he believes in will be wiped away if he and U7 loses; his pride, Bulma,Bra,Trunks, Cabba and the Saiyan Race. So again he gets enraged/motivates himself by this idea of the things he belives in being erased, and gains a power boost against Toppo and ultimately defeats him.(Again nothing to do with Goku) His previous transformations have been focused on surpassing Goku; Super Saiyan was a result of his rage that Goku had it and he didn't Goku surpassed him etc. When he achieves ASSJ the first thing he does upon coming out is tell Goku that he has surpassed him. This time it had NOTHING to do with Goku. He clearly surpasses Goku at the moment he gets the boost against Toppo but it doesn't even occur to him. He would have used to made a comment about being stronger than Goku or he would have not reached it in the first place. Then Goku achieves UI Omen and ultimately actual UI and neither time was Vegeta angry like he was before. Even though he established he would rather die than have Goku defeat him in the Copy Vegeta arc, he was even encouraging and assuring people that Goku would reach higher heights. He was bordering on happy seeing Goku surpass him and that is something we have never seen before in Dragon Ball.

Now the times where he thinks of his family may have been a bit excessive and weren't related to the previous point I mentioned previously, maybe it just kind of drives home the point? It may have been a bit excessive but I didn't particularly mind it but a case could be made.

as far as Toppo saying that he gave up on Justice and it is only about Survival now, I don't recall him saying that exactly I thought it was more of a foreshadowing under the radar type comment. But again, I don't remember it exactly. Kale/Caulifla scenes I guess I didn't notice that they were that similar if they were, I guess I will pay closer to that the next time I rewatch it.

[AnimeNation101]

Wait a sec. Is this Scotty Rogers from gamefaqs?

[Cetra]

As good aa I thought the scene with Freeza giving Goku energy was, as well as Freeza winning with Goku and being humiliated by Toppo after dissing him - I think he was lacking one really cool fight for the powerhouse and person he is - I would have prefered him fighting Jishou Hakaishin Toppo for a while and do relatively good, AND THEN lose because of typical anime villain arrogance and get humiliated. The closed to "his own cool fight" he got was Dyspo. And fighting a pseudo Hakaishin for a while would have been quite cool. Vegeta could still have fought Toppo afterwards.

[GamerSkull]

Aside from a few instances... it just felt like children (Zeno) playing with a bunch of action figures (the participants).

Well, I guess I'm just disappointed there was less emphasis on story aspects in this arc.

[BlueBasilisk]

I'm referring to episodes 101 and 113/114 which literally have the same arc: Caulifla gives Kale the power to believe in herself and they fight together. I mean, they didn't even address the very thing you point out: that Kale gets jealous if Caulifla bonds with someone else; no solution to that problem was ever presented. They just backpedaled on that concept that cast some spotlight on their extremely toxic relationship.

Say what? They didn't backpedal on it, it was resolved in 101. Kale freaked out like that because of her feelings of worthlessness (the first time she was literally crying that she was a worthless Saiyan and the second time in 100 when Caulifla didn't answer when she asked if she was in the way). After she went Super Saiyan to help Caulifla defeat the Pride Troopers, she gained confidence and stopped doing that which is the whole reason Caulifla wanted her to become a Super Saiyan in the first place. She had no problem with Goku after that except some normal battle smack talk when the fought in 113 and 114, and was happy when Caulifla suggested that Cabba join them in their SS3 training. The last time she went berserk it was because she let out too much power in her eagerness to help fight Goku and she had to be talked down again.

[Doctor.]

I'm referring to episodes 101 and 113/114 which literally have the same arc: Caulifla gives Kale the power to believe in herself and they fight together. I mean, they didn't even address the very thing you point out: that Kale gets jealous if Caulifla bonds with someone else; no solution to that problem was ever presented. They just backpedaled on that concept that cast some spotlight on their extremely toxic relationship.

Say what? They didn't backpedal on it, it was resolved in 101. Kale freaked out like that because of her feelings of worthlessness (the first time she was literally crying that she was a worthless Saiyan and the second time in 100 when Caulifla didn't answer when she asked if she was in the way). After she went Super Saiyan to help Caulifla defeat the Pride Troopers, she gained confidence and stopped doing that which is the whole reason Caulifla wanted her to become a Super Saiyan in the first place. She had no problem with Goku after that except some normal battle smack talk when the fought in 113 and 114, and was happy when Caulifla suggested that Cabba join them in their SS3 training. The last time she went berserk it was because she let out too much power in her eagerness to help fight Goku and she had to be talked down again.

No, they skirted around the issue. The issue is that their relationship is toxic because Kale is obsessed with Caulifla to the point she gets mad if Caulifla bonds with anyone else. Instead of solving it by letting Kale realize that Caulifla can have other friends without putting their own relationship in trouble, they just double-down on obsessive psycho-bitch Kale and reinforce their relationship. She certainly had a problem with Goku considering she got extremely mad when Goku punched Caulifla away, showing that her obsessive behavior - her major character flaw - isn't gone yet. And, don't get me wrong, Kale having a (major) character flaw isn't a bad thing. It's a bad thing when they call attention to it in a previous episode and lead the audience on that she'll get some kind of development in regards to it, only to go the other way.

[BlueBasilisk]

I'm referring to episodes 101 and 113/114 which literally have the same arc: Caulifla gives Kale the power to believe in herself and they fight together. I mean, they didn't even address the very thing you point out: that Kale gets jealous if Caulifla bonds with someone else; no solution to that problem was ever presented. They just backpedaled on that concept that cast some spotlight on their extremely toxic relationship.

Say what? They didn't backpedal on it, it was resolved in 101. Kale freaked out like that because of her feelings of worthlessness (the first time she was literally crying that she was a worthless Saiyan and the second time in 100 when Caulifla didn't answer when she asked if she was in the way). After she went Super Saiyan to help Caulifla defeat the Pride Troopers, she gained confidence and stopped doing that which is the whole reason Caulifla wanted her to become a Super Saiyan in the first place. She had no problem with Goku after that except some normal battle smack talk when the fought in 113 and 114, and was happy when Caulifla suggested that Cabba join them in their SS3 training. The last time she went berserk it was because she let out too much power in her eagerness to help fight Goku and she had to be talked down again.

No, they skirted around the issue. The issue is that their relationship is toxic because Kale is obsessed with Caulifla to the point she gets mad if Caulifla bonds with anyone else. Instead of solving it by letting Kale realize that Caulifla can have other friends without putting their own relationship in trouble, they just double-down on obsessive psycho-bitch Kale and reinforce their relationship. She certainly had a problem with Goku considering she got extremely mad when Goku punched Caulifla away, showing that her obsessive behavior - her major character flaw - isn't gone yet. And, don't get me wrong, Kale having a (major) character flaw isn't a bad thing. It's a bad thing when they call attention to it in a previous episode and lead the audience on that she'll get some kind of development in regards to it, only to go the other way.

Because they weren't pushing Kale as an 'obsessive psycho-bitch.' That jealousy stemmed her lack of self-confidence and self-hatred over her percieved weakness made her very insecure in their relationship. She was afraid that she was holding Caulifla back and that Caulifla was going to dump her and move on.

Cabba and Goku both made the mistake of making her feel useless or in the way without realizing they were stomping on a very sore spot. Cabba called her useless in his attempt to piss her off enough to transform and she lashed out at him. Yes, Cabba suspected Kale didn't like them bonding and Caulifla clarified it wasn't like that, but she also dumped praise on Kale and reaffirmed how proud she was and that was when Kale powered down.

Then Goku told her she was being a bother when she tried to help Caulifla fight him the first time. Kale was shown to be upset at that and when Caulifla ignored her question and went back to the fight, Kale got angry and lashed out at him too. It's implied Caulifla did that deliberately to make her transform since she still couldn't on her own and she was immediately crowing about how she knew Kale had it in her when it happened. Then Kale mowed her down trying to get Goku.

Yes, she was mad at him for hitting Caulifla, but that was a heat of battle thing, not a jealousy thing. They were fighting to win there. Caulifla also jumped in to clobber or berate people who hurt Kale. That worked both ways. I'm talking about when that fight started in 113. Caulifla was fighting Goku all on her own and Kale was happy to stand back and watch. She was even smiling because Caulifla was having fun. She didn't show any of her previous resentment toward Goku when he asked her to join in even though nothing had changed between them. She still didn't like him in 101. What changed is that Kale was more confident in herself and Caulifla had put her doubts to rest by re-affirming their friendship and by getting hurt trying to protect her instead of running when she actually was being useless.

Edit: just to clarify, I'm not arguing that Kale's attitude up to 101 wasn't unhealthy, because it was, but I think her lashing out at Goku and Cabba was supposed to be seen as her scapegoating a convenient target instead of addressing the actual problems she had with herself. When she went SS, she finally admitted that she hated the way she was.

And to be fair, I think they did try to show that her devotion could be a bad thing too, as Goku almost took them both down by separating them and focusing on Caulifla instead of fighting Kale head-on.

[Doctor.]

Fair enough, I'll have to rewatch the Caulifla and Kale episodes and pay more attention. I'll admit I probably didn't give the writing the credit it deserves due to how much I dislike the characters.

[Miracles]

Don't forget "Goku is learning Ultra Instinct by abandoning all thoughts not on the battle!" only to for the episode right after to let him power the form up by getting pissed off. Like how Blue is all about calm and ki control but also gives you rage boosts too.

Whis clearly states Goku's distraction's from using UI was due to the fates of the universes, the difference in power between him and Jiren, all these caused fear, panic and hesitation, he cleared his mind of those things, he was able to access UI fully. Jiren trying to hurt his friends and getting angry over it has nothing to do with not accessing UI.

[ekrolo2]

Don't forget "Goku is learning Ultra Instinct by abandoning all thoughts not on the battle!" only to for the episode right after to let him power the form up by getting pissed off. Like how Blue is all about calm and ki control but also gives you rage boosts too.

Whis clearly states Goku's distraction's from using UI was due to the fates of the universes, the difference in power between him and Jiren, all these caused fear, panic and hesitation, he cleared his mind of those things, he was able to access UI fully. Jiren trying to hurt his friends and getting angry over it has nothing to do with not accessing UI.

Goku getting angry over Jiren hurting his friends is exactly what a distraction is: it's him clouding his mind with fear, panic and concerns about external things instead of focusing purely on the battle at hand. That's why him accessing Omen because he's worried about people is contradictory and him powering up because of outside distractions in the completed form is blatant stupidity.

[Miracles]

Goku getting angry over Jiren hurting his friends is exactly what a distraction is: it's him clouding his mind with fear, panic and concerns about external things instead of focusing purely on the battle at hand. That's why him accessing Omen because he's worried about people is contradictory and him powering up because of outside distractions in the completed form is blatant stupidity.

Anger on the fight isn't a distraction tho. Goku is still focused on Jiren and the fight. Unlike him worrying about his universe erasure and the fear of losing cause of Jiren's overwhelming power.

[ekrolo2]

Goku getting angry over Jiren hurting his friends is exactly what a distraction is: it's him clouding his mind with fear, panic and concerns about external things instead of focusing purely on the battle at hand. That's why him accessing Omen because he's worried about people is contradictory and him powering up because of outside distractions in the completed form is blatant stupidity.

Anger on the fight wasn't one of the distractions listed to attain/maintain UI tho.

Okay, so Goku can't complete Ultra Instinct because he's afraid for himself and his friends and is possibly feeling panicky about the difference in power between himself and Jiren but him feeling angry about Jiren attacking them, an emotion that's more clearly demonstrated then the fear and panic Whis mentions are doesn't throw him off? Didn't he feel shock, fear and panic for his friends when Jiren initially went after them too?

Let's not kid ourselves, Ultra Instinct runs on "Super logic" where in one episode 2+2=4 until the next one has 2+2=482

[Miracles]

Okay, so Goku can't complete Ultra Instinct because he's afraid for himself and his friends and is possibly feeling panicky about the difference in power between himself and Jiren but him feeling angry about Jiren attacking them, an emotion that's more clearly demonstrated then the fear and panic Whis mentions are doesn't throw him off? Didn't he feel shock, fear and panic for his friends when Jiren initially went after them too?

Let's not kid ourselves, Ultra Instinct runs on "Super logic" where in one episode 2+2=4 until the next one has 2+2=482

There's a difference. Goku's mind was idle, focusing on things that had nothing to do with the fight, on the safety of the universe and his lack of power against Jiren. This brought on fears, panic and hesitation, which distracted him from the fight itself. When he finally focused on Jiren and himself, he let those idle thoughts disappear, now he could land effective attacks without letting various thoughts interfere.